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[FlyinJ]

I have a feeling this payola thing goes way deeper and more illegal than just youtube streamers.

For instance, there were almost zero gaming sites that posted news about the completely broken state BF4 was in for two weeks after it's release.

Only 3-4 weeks in did the major media sites start reporting on it.

 

[nib95]

You're making a lot of assumptions because Boogie portrays himself as a pretty honest guy. I think its better to put aside any personal biases and assume the worst. You-tubers are doing this for the money no matter how much of a passion they have for the hobby (at least the wholes who do it for a living). You can enjoy their content but take their recommendations with a grain of salt.

Even accepting free games/consoles/schwag is no different than taking cash.

I hope not. For moralities sake, I want to believe there are still honest Tubers out there. Certainly don't think it's fair to paint all with one brush.

 

[Violater]

http://www.businessinsider.com/why-people-defend-companies-2013-1

Well...very, specific people yes.

Man child generalizes GAF and thinks his angry opinion matters, we sound like that to those people, yeah.

I hope making these videos isn't his day job or something because basically he just took a shit on his entire "fan base" as well.

 

[Neuromancer]

And yet has never taken one up. Case in point.

By the way, the issue is not with these promotions, it's when the said users don't disclose they're part of one that causes the issue.

Re: Boogie

Due to youtube's very stringent gameplay policies, earlier last year I started acting as my own agent to get around the copyright machine by contacting companies directly to ask for review copies of games and written permission to monetize gameplay.

Several companies would say yes and ask for a contract similar to this one. Mostly I declined, but if it was a game that was already reviewing well that I was fairly certain I would love I agreed. If I played the game and didn't love it, I'd simply let them know I was not going to fullfill the contract and while it would burn a bridge with the company, everything was kosher.

Also a few times I said negative things about a game during a review and that meant I wasnt going to get whatever bonus was offered. That's ok though. My integrity is worth the money, honestly.

What I got from that is he's taken money from companies on multiple occasions to speak positively about their games. That's all I need to know.

 

[Affeinvasion]

I fail to see how this is different from radio payolla which is illegal.

 

[blazinglazers]

… For moralities sake, I want to believe there are still honest Tubers out there. Certainly don't think it's fair to paint all with one brush.

There are definitely honest YouTubers out there. But honestly & credibility are YouTube currency, and since advertisers have figured various ways of monetizing that, viewers should be advised.

I'm cross posting from this Conan thread, and I'm also not defending the practice -- I think with how blurry the lines are on YouTube it should be mandatory to have some sort of overlay / immediately visible tag which identifies paid promotion -- I'm just saying the transition from amateur to paid has already happened. It's the sole principal behind MCNs: paid product placement, endorsement and sponsorship. Hell, it's the whole long-term point of YouTube from Google's point of view. They own the new tv.

And since it's legally the wild west right now for advertisers, in my opinion one should view YouTube with even more cynical eyes than tv.

 

[Legato.Reborn-]

He's been also caught hacking in DayZ

Source?

 

[thefit]

Play your own games and stop looking up to and making celebrities out of gamers.

 

[the_prime_mover]

It is unfortunate that this isn't against the FTC guideines, but hopefully these agreements will get more coverage in the future. Media coverage in this industry is such a joke, so I will look to GAF opinion and live streams in lieu of personally playing the game.

 

[NEOPARADIGM]

Source?

http://www.reddit.com/r/dayz/comments/13rruz/frankieonpc_a_hacker_please_read_before_you/

 

[Neuromancer]

Play your own games and stop looking up to and making celebrities out of gamers.

Sure. Still, it's sad you can't watch a video of someone playing a game on Youtube and assume those are their honest opinions and that they're not getting paid to say it.

 

[Psychoward]

I'm not surprised about Jack Frags (idk the other guys) dude got and showed footage of the game before anyone else even did.

Yeah, I assumed he had some sort of deal with DICE going, I just watched the videos without any commentary. I don't need some random YouTuber telling me how great a game is.

 

[nib95]

It is unfortunate that this isn't against the FTC guideines, but hopefully these agreements will get more coverage in the future. Media coverage in this industry is such a joke, so I will look to GAF opinion and live streams in lieu of personally playing the game.

Based on the OP and otherwise, I thought it was against FTC guidelines? At least when non disclosure is involved.

 

[Orayn]

It is unfortunate that this isn't against the FTC guideines, but hopefully these agreements will get more coverage in the future. Media coverage in this industry is such a joke, so I will look to GAF opinion and live streams in lieu of personally playing the game.

It is against FTC guidelines, the problem is that there's not a whole lot that can be done about it besides publicizing the issue and hoping the guilty parties have enough of a conscience not to keep flagrantly breaking the rules.

 

[Sean]

This really shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone. Most big YouTubers are doing it for the money - they're in partner networks and you'll usually see a "business inquiries" email address on their channel etc. They get paid for shoutouts, links in the description, companies fund viral videos (ie Mega64 type stuff), all sorts of things. Some channels disclose it, many don't.

Even if no money changed hands, the fact that these YouTubers are getting invited to events and receiving exclusive pre-release footage will no doubt influence their coverage/opinions. They're not going to bite the hand that feeds them.

 

[The Janitor]

Source?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xC4SITywbE

Here's a thread, if you read through all of it you'll get the full picture

http://forums.dayzgame.com/index.php?/topic/108705-frankieonpcin1080p-accused-of-cheating/

But to summarize

• A guy who kills a German squad was banned for hacking, nobody knows who it was until Frankie uploads Episode 20 showing that HE was the formerly unknown guy who killed the German squad.

• In the video you can see evidence of god mode usage because of a flashing temp icon + debug monitor only possible through hacking bypass.
  The temperature icon flashes with irregular yellow blinking: This is a known feature of the hack, no bug that causes the temp to flash irregularly has ever been reported

• His blood level magically goes back to full, even though he had nothing in his inventory to restore it that much

• You could further find strange edits (frames cut from zooming out animation etc.) which points to deliberate removal of evidence during the firefight.
  Why whould he cut out a frame in the middle of a firefight if it was not to cover up being hit?

 

[Fatal Futanari]

What I got from that is he's taken money from companies on multiple occasions to speak positively about their games. That's all I need to know.

But in that situation he took money for speaking positively about a game he actually liked. He broke contracts/ lost bonuses on ones he didnt like

 

[PBY]

But in that situation he took money for speaking positively about a game he actually liked. He broke contracts/ lost bonuses on ones he didnt like

Not accusing him of anything- but don't you see how that sets up hugely perverse incentives? It's a flawed system.

 

[vagabondarts]

The 1up show was probably originally bankrolled by Microsoft as a hip way to showcase the 360 launch and the creators just kept it going afterwards since it was so popular.

 

[Neuromancer]

But in that situation he took money for speaking positively about a game he actually liked. He broke contracts/ lost bonuses on ones he didnt like

Doesn't matter to me. He should disclose when he's getting paid.

 

[Marauder Shields]

Welp that sucks. Used to like listening to LevelCap and Frankie but this is a bummer. Not the getting paid part, moreso the part about not disclosing any issues with BF4 till a month after release. Can't see myself watching them anymore if I can't trust what they say.

 

[OminoMichelin]

The thing I got from all of this mess is to never, EVER buy or preorder AAA games at launch. Good previews mean nothing.

 

[KoopaTheCasual]

I assume everyone I like watching on YouTube is a sell out, and only watch for their commentary/humor and not their opinions.

RoosterTeeth? Basically a Microsoft company.

WhiteBoy7thst/WoodysGamertag/FPSRussia/iJustine/etc? All basically PR for Activision.

PewDiePie? I bet he does get paid by indies and such for exposure.

JackFrags, and the other other guys were just confirmed to basically PR for EA.

TotalBiscut did sell out yo Planetside before, and probably still does to other companies, just probably hasn't been leaked.

This guys are like TV, they have to eat and make money, and aren't above selling out to do so.

Well, I understand that's your outlook, but people generally don't want to sacrifice something they may have naively assumed would always be a home to honest opinions, once in awhile. I don't mean to get dramatic, but if we all adopted this attitude with DRM and said "Welp, we're boned people. Let's just get used to it," we wouldn't be where we are right now. We can stop some things with enough outcry.

But at the same time, this time there's been outcry with the assist of every gaming outlet, and even major news media outlet, and all the fcking FTC has to say about it is, "Meh, we're a pretty useless body of power that can't get anything done. We'll just wag a disapproving finger at them." I really don't want to see Youtube completely turn into late night television in a couple of years, where any appearance of any product is synonymous with paid promotion =/

 

[Okamid3n]

I'd like to feel outraged, but I just can't. Partly because I don't really trust other people's opinions, partly because I'm convinced we all have friends and family who would do the same if they were offered something like this and they needed money.

It sucks, for sure, but on the list of terrible things someone can do, this ranks damn near the bottom. I don't think they deserve to be "fined to oblivion" as some are asking.

I hope people asking for these youtubers' heads stop using EA and Microsoft products, because the responsability falls on them MUCH more than these youtubers, since those corporations are the ones that planned the whole thing and bribed people to join in.

 

[NoPiece]

I think people are really misconstruing the poorly written Polygon article. The FTC guidelines are the FTC's interpretation of the law - they are trying to help people follow the law by putting out some stuff in plain english.

If you violate the guidelines, you are probably violating the law. EA and Microsoft violated the guidelines, and can be investigated and punished for it.

The first investigation after the FTC published teh revised guidelines was against Ann Taylor. They ultimately didn't fine them, but you can see how what MS and EA did is investigation worthy.

http://adage.com/article/news/ann-taylor-case-shows-ftc-keeping-close-eye-blogging/143567/

NEW YORK (AdAge.com) -- The Federal Trade Commission has made public its first investigation into a company's relationship with bloggers, and while the federal agency took no action, the decision provides some insight into how it is viewing marketers' relationships with online communities.

The FTC informed Ann Taylor that, following an investigation, it has decided not to take action against the women's retailer over an event held earlier this year. The retailer had invited bloggers to preview the Loft division's summer 2010 collection, offering a "special gift," and promising that those posting coverage from the event would be entered into a "mystery gift-card drawing," where they could win between $50 and $500. The invite explained that bloggers must submit posts to the company within 24 hours in order to find out the value of their gift card.

The event and the unusual request for posts to be submitted for a prize received media scrutiny and caught the eye of the FTC. "We were concerned that bloggers who attended a preview on January 26, 2010 failed to disclose that they received gifts for posting blog content about that event," Mary Engle, the FTC's associate director-advertising practices, wrote in a letter dated April 20 to Ann Taylor's legal representation.

 

[Jburton]

They won't be fined. There are no fines.

The thread title needs to be updated.

These videos where not only shown in the US, in the UK and EU there is far better consumer protection from this nefarious shit.

I think anyone based in the UK and Europe should lodge a complaint, I am going to.

 

[nib95]

I think people are really misconstruing the poorly written Polygon article. The FTC guidelines are the FTC's interpretation of the law - they are trying to help people follow the law by putting out some stuff in plain english.

If you violate the guidelines, you are probably violating the law. EA and Microsoft violated the guidelines, and can be investigated and punished for it.

The first investigation after the FTC published teh revised guidelines was against Ann Taylor. They ultimately didn't fine them, but you can see how what MS and EA did is investigation worthy.

http://adage.com/article/news/ann-taylor-case-shows-ftc-keeping-close-eye-blogging/143567/

Thanks for the insight. I do agree the article is poorly written and rather confused and non precise.

 

[jcm]

It is against FTC guidelines, the problem is that there's not a whole lot that can be done about it besides publicizing the issue and hoping the guilty parties have enough of a conscience not to keep flagrantly breaking the rules.

That's not true. The guidelines are published by the FTC to help individuals and companies avoid breaking the law. If individuals or companies are violating the guidelines, the FTC can investigate and sue the violators if they believe it has violated the law.

edit: I was too slow, and NoPiece covered it better than me anyway.

 

[PBY]

I think people are really misconstruing the poorly written Polygon article. The FTC guidelines are the FTC's interpretation of the law - they are trying to help people follow the law by putting out some stuff in plain english.

If you violate the guidelines, you are probably violating the law. EA and Microsoft violated the guidelines, and can be investigated and punished for it.

The first investigation after the FTC published teh revised guidelines was against Ann Taylor. They ultimately didn't fine them, but you can see how what MS and EA did is investigation worthy.

http://adage.com/article/news/ann-taylor-case-shows-ftc-keeping-close-eye-blogging/143567/

The FTC has only investigated 3 similar cases under the new rules. Given the fact that its actually Machinima's contract, the fact that they don't really seem to care given widespread similar abuse, and the presumptuousness of thinking that we, who lack expertise in this realm, know more about this sphere than the qualified legal teams of these companies, its unlikely that anything will happen.

 

[Dany]

I bet you this was not the first instance of this happening.

youtubers aren't journalists. Their opinion is paid off.

 

[NoPiece]

They won't be fined. There are no fines.

The thread title needs to be updated.

Here is the press release of the first fine imposed by the FTC based on their 2009 guidelines, so yes there absolutely are the potential of fines...

http://www.ftc.gov/news-events/press-releases/2011/03/firm-pay-ftc-250000-settle-charges-it-used-misleading-online

Firm to Pay FTC $250,000 to Settle Charges That It Used Misleading Online "Consumer" and "Independent" Reviews
FOR RELEASE
March 15, 2011
A company selling a popular series of guitar-lesson DVDs will pay $250,000 to settle Federal Trade Commission charges that it deceptively advertised its products through online affiliate marketers who falsely posed as ordinary consumers or independent reviewers.

The FTC complaint against Nashville, Tennessee-based Legacy Learning Systems Inc. and its owner, Lester Gabriel Smith, is part of FTC efforts to make sure that advertising to American consumers is truthful and not deceptive, whether the advertisements appear in traditional or newer forms of media.

The Learn and Master Guitar program promoted by Legacy Learning and Smith is sold as a way to learn the guitar at home using DVDs and written materials. According to the FTC’s complaint, Legacy Learning advertised using an online affiliate program, through which it recruited “Review Ad” affiliates to promote its courses through endorsements in articles, blog posts, and other online editorial material, with the endorsements appearing close to hyperlinks to Legacy’s website. Affiliates received in exchange for substantial commissions on the sale of each product resulting from referrals. According to the FTC, such endorsements generated more than $5 million in sales of Legacy’s courses.

The FTC charged that Legacy Learning and Smith disseminated deceptive advertisements by representing that online endorsements written by affiliates reflected the views of ordinary consumers or “independent” reviewers, without clearly disclosing that the affiliates were paid for every sale they generated.

 

[Jburton]

The FTC has only investigated 3 similar cases under the new rules. Given the fact that its actually Machinima's contract, the fact that they don't really seem to care given widespread similar abuse, and the presumptuousness of thinking that we, who lack expertise in this realm, know more about this sphere than the qualified legal teams of these companies, its unlikely that anything will happen.

Thankfully the US and the FTC are not the only option.

 

[QuicheFontaine]

Not accusing him of anything- but don't you see how that sets up hugely perverse incentives? It's a flawed system.

Yeah, I'm not buying this excuse of "I take their money, but only when I agree".

Once you start paying your bills with that money, you're not going to jeopardise that income stream.

 

[NoPiece]

The FTC has only investigated 3 similar cases under the new rules. Given the fact that its actually Machinima's contract, the fact that they don't really seem to care given widespread similar abuse, and the presumptuousness of thinking that we, who lack expertise in this realm, know more about this sphere than the qualified legal teams of these companies, its unlikely that anything will happen.

Yes, most crimes go unpunished. I'm not predicting an FTC investigation, but I think there should be one, and it is more likely that there will be one if people are vocally outrages, and don't just roll their eyes and make excuses for it.

 

[SlasherJPC]

I hope not. For moralities sake, I want to believe there are still honest Tubers out there. Certainly don't think it's fair to paint all with one brush.

While it does seem to be getting harder to know who to trust. There are some folks out there like my channel, that while having a solid base, still is rather small, and doing this for fun and have since 2006. It's not a career, I don't depend on it to get my next meal, or pay my rent. When it becomes someones way of life, they do what they have to do to support themselves. That's when it also becomes a little more questionable imo.

 

[PBY]

Yes, most crimes go unpunished. I'm not predicting an FTC investigation, but I think there should be one, and it is more likely that there will be one if people are vocally outrages, and don't just roll their eyes and make excuses for it.

The FTC doesn't really operate like that though.

 

[jcm]

The FTC has only investigated 3 similar cases under the new rules. Given the fact that its actually Machinima's contract, the fact that they don't really seem to care given widespread similar abuse, and the presumptuousness of thinking that we, who lack expertise in this realm, know more about this sphere than the qualified legal teams of these companies, its unlikely that anything will happen.

I don't see how those facts make an enforcement action unlikely. Companies break the law and get fined for it all the time.

 

[Kinyou]

Interesting. That's only for the US though, right? Wonder what the EU might say

 

[Jburton]

Interesting. That's only for the US though, right? Wonder what the EU might say

A lot more based on its actions.

 

[Amir0x]

I hope they do go after these companies. Need an example to be set.

 

[Stronty]

Even if FTC doesn't enforce, shouldn't google/youtube take down videos that are confirmed to have broken the law? If they dont, they are benefitting from illegal activity and also aiding and abetting violators.

 

[AHA-Lambda]

so reviews can be bought.

 

[Captain Tuttle]

LawyerGAF needs to break this down for me

 

[Austriacus]

Actually TB got caught shilling for planetside 2
they hired him to do pr for them and he posted the videos on his channel without labeling them or mentioning he was getting paid
he ended up apologising and releasing a video with some criticism of the game in an attempt to salvage his name
he literally didn't say a bad thing about the game (performance, bugs, the grindy f2p nature etc etc) before he got caught

Yo, im reading this a lot, but some of you are really spreading misinformation. Totalbiscuit said he was working with them literally 11 days after he was able to test the alpha, and while he didnt slander he did point out bugs when they happened and that the version he was playing was in alpha and everything can be subject to change, like he does for every game in alpha.

 

[Trail Guide]

Can we start congratulating EA for their third Golden Poo award now or do we have to wait until it's official? I was pretty sure the buggy state of BF4 alone was enough to help them win, but this payola should put them over the top.

 

[BPoole]

Yo, im reading this a lot, but some of you are really spreading misinformation. Totalbiscuit said he was working with them literally 11 days after he was able to test the alpha, and while he didnt slander he did point out bugs when they happened and that the version he was playing was in alpha and everything can be subject to change, like he does for every game in alpha.

Yeah, I remember following many of his PS2 stuff and I recall him stating early on that SOE had contacted him since he was a fan of the original Planetside game. He still even gave criticisms of the game which he discussed on the recent Address the Sess

 

[QaaQer]

I hope not. For moralities sake, I want to believe there are still honest Tubers out there. Certainly don't think it's fair to paint all with one brush.

Sure there is, but if there is no way to tell good from bad, what does it matter?

 

[NoPiece]

The FTC doesn't really operate like that though.

They totally operate like that. Their Facebook privacy investigation comes to mind - users got pissed, it got a lot of tech press, then FTC started an investigation. They don't have the resources to examine blogs, or youtube, or even tv commercials themselves. They take complaints, and read the news, and react.

 

[Naminator]

LevelCap? Noooo! Why LevelCap? Why?

Unsubbing right now from that EA shill!

I bet XFactor and everyone else who was flied out to "test" BF4 is part of this bullshit!

 

[Majanew]

I guess that's why LevelCap, JackFrags, and the rest went to the EA event for BF4. To collect their checks.

I hope you little bitches read this thread. Go fuck yourselves.