RoboGeorgeForeman
Banned
I'd make the game considerably more difficult (while keeping it fair), and not change a thing. Nearly everything mechanic or destination-wise is already explained in game.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Edge 249: Dark Souls II. To be more "direct," "straightforward," and "understandable"
- Thread starter Visualante2
- Start date
I'd make the game considerably more difficult (while keeping it fair), and not change a thing. Nearly everything mechanic or destination-wise is already explained in game.
And a Dew Flask to regain health
Of All Trades
Member
Do I get my $50-60 back if I move on? Brutally penalizing weaker players to the point where they quit a game means that they continue to focus their money on games that (people seem to think) DS represents the opposite of.
Anyway, "easy" mode for DS, assuming the majority of difficulty is the bosses (and time sink from dying to them) would be an easy fix: put in a 1-shot method for bosses coupled to a significant cost or penalty, like 10 humanity or something, and if there's some sort of bonus or acknowledgment from killing a boss normally (like the bell ringing after the Gargoyles) then that goes, too.
DS is certainly better than DkS in the upgrades but I have a hard time thinking what would be lost if I could see a weapon's entire upgrade tree from a blacksmith. There's already significant time penalties associated with upgrading things past a certain point and having the ability to use materials without having to turn to a wiki to ensure that I'm not wasting them on something I don't want (particularly for super-rare ones) would be really nice.Riposte said:
Alternatively allow weapons to be downgraded/respecced (at some significant cost like humanity or souls), anything to remove what basically boils down to as repetitive area grinding or punishment for experimentation.
H_Prestige
Banned
Summon people to help you.
Just use co-op partners, guy.
Demon's/Dark Souls needs proper difficulty levels. The auto boosting a player into a higher difficulty level upon clear/completion of the game is garbage. The stat increases become so out of control by new game+++...,etc. Equipment/armor almost/did became/become worthless in Demon's Souls because of this bullshit. God damn, if I recall correctly, the official guide that came with the collector's for Demon's Souls suggested not even wearing armor on higher game cycles. So terrible. Dark Souls almost fixed this with poise, but it still had a lot of balancing issues. I think playing as a tank/warrior in those games feels completely unrewarding, at times. First playthrough, sure, armor/warrior types can take damage, but forget about anything beyond a couple of new game+'s. Some of this nonsense could have been alleviated if there were selectable difficulty levels upon completion (like Diablo). That's my main issue with the difficulty stuff, anyway.
SatelliteOfLove
Member
Easy mode was Royal. 
Oddly enough, this is how these changes settle in; few people actively ask for harder/tougher/more punishing, and a number of them are asking for it for exclusionary reasons rather than balancing ones.
This needs to be the buzzword, not accessibility.
Oddly enough, this is how these changes settle in; few people actively ask for harder/tougher/more punishing, and a number of them are asking for it for exclusionary reasons rather than balancing ones.
This needs to be the buzzword, not accessibility.
RoboGeorgeForeman
Banned
Yep. Every boss fight is made a trivial affair with two or more players.
I don't blame them, but don't blame me if I call it shit like I did Skyrim. I get next to no enjoyment from easy games and honestly Dark Souls should be what is considered average difficulty.
It might not be well known around here, but hard games where the player dies early and often lead to frustration, which leads to most players quitting and badmouthing the game. Average videogame players do not like challenge and do not like learning things. It's just a fact. That is why the platformer as a genre is dead.
A game that seeks broad appeal has to take this into account. Things have to be clearly spelled out, death cannot be frustrating, and learning has to be kept to a minimum. You can see these trends in all game series that focus on broad appeal.
These developer statements, if true and translated correctly, mean DSII will be the least challenging, least frustrating, and require the least learning of the souls games.
I don't blame From at all. They have a brand name that is very well known, they would be fools not to try to cash in on it.
A game that seeks broad appeal has to take this into account. Things have to be clearly spelled out, death cannot be frustrating, and learning has to be kept to a minimum. You can see these trends in all game series that focus on broad appeal.
These developer statements, if true and translated correctly, mean DSII will be the least challenging, least frustrating, and require the least learning of the souls games.
I don't blame From at all. They have a brand name that is very well known, they would be fools not to try to cash in on it.
So a player is bad at the game, refuses to learn the encounter so they use a 1 hit kill mechanic and are locked from doing something that is necessary to open later areas?
I can tell you have thought this through
No. Make more informed purchases.
They have the right to focus their money on games they want to play.
MegaKungFuRadio
Member
I feel that the Souls games get a lot of positive discussion and word of mouth because the people who appreciate it really appreciate it, and it gets other people interested. However, when people actually get around to seeing or playing the game, it's not the type of game that clicks instantly or offers anything to quickly draw in the player, so all that positivity is wasted. It will never have mainstream appeal in its current state. The problem is that its core appeal is the reason it won't have mainstream appeal, so it's highly possible that they'll shoot themselves in the foot and alienate its loyal fans and not grow very much.
BIONIC-ARRRMMM!!
Member
Dark Souls was just too fucking obtuse in certain aspects.
Weapon upgrades weren't explained in-game at all, and since they require both souls and hard to find items, experimentation with the system wasn't really an option.
Covenants and online play also weren't explained properly in game.
The difficulty of the game was generally fine, I don't mind if it's still as hard.
Mechanically, I'd fix bow shooting and adopt a traditional 3rd person controls/perspective for that. And for the love of god make a non-shitty UI. Normal combat was just fine though, but I'm pretty sure it can be improved as well.
And honestly, almost none of you whiners finished the game, or knew what half the in-game systems did without spending hours reading the OT and/or wiki. So let's not pretend otherwise.
Weapon upgrades weren't explained in-game at all, and since they require both souls and hard to find items, experimentation with the system wasn't really an option.
Covenants and online play also weren't explained properly in game.
The difficulty of the game was generally fine, I don't mind if it's still as hard.
Mechanically, I'd fix bow shooting and adopt a traditional 3rd person controls/perspective for that. And for the love of god make a non-shitty UI. Normal combat was just fine though, but I'm pretty sure it can be improved as well.
And honestly, almost none of you whiners finished the game, or knew what half the in-game systems did without spending hours reading the OT and/or wiki. So let's not pretend otherwise.
John Rabbit
Banned
easier co-op with scaling difficulty. that's it really.
How about customizable difficulty in the vein of Conducts in NetHack? There would be various curses and blessings that would change the game when equipped. They'd have different values and you'd either need a balanced budget or a surplus of difficulty, but within those limitations you could modify your challenge however you wanted.
"Boon of The Guardian: Cannot be invaded. -20"
"Boon of The Princess: Estus flasks restore 10% more health. -5"
"Boon of Good Fortune: Increases item drop rate. -5"
"Boon of The Slayer: Deal 10% more damage to enemies. -10"
"Boon of Sorcery: Increases speed of spellcasting. -10"
"Vow of Solitude: Cannot summon allies. +15"
"Lesser Vow of Pain: Enemies deal 10% more damage. +5"
"Greater Vow of Pain: Enemies deal 25% more damage. +10"
"Vow of Rust: Equipment degrades 20% faster. +5"
"Vow of Poverty: Decreases maximum equip burden. +5"
"Vow of Stone: Decreases dodge and movement speed. +10"
That sort of thing. Beating the game with lots of difficulty-enhancing vows would have its own leaderboard for sure, maybe even affect the ending.
"Boon of The Guardian: Cannot be invaded. -20"
"Boon of The Princess: Estus flasks restore 10% more health. -5"
"Boon of Good Fortune: Increases item drop rate. -5"
"Boon of The Slayer: Deal 10% more damage to enemies. -10"
"Boon of Sorcery: Increases speed of spellcasting. -10"
"Vow of Solitude: Cannot summon allies. +15"
"Lesser Vow of Pain: Enemies deal 10% more damage. +5"
"Greater Vow of Pain: Enemies deal 25% more damage. +10"
"Vow of Rust: Equipment degrades 20% faster. +5"
"Vow of Poverty: Decreases maximum equip burden. +5"
"Vow of Stone: Decreases dodge and movement speed. +10"
That sort of thing. Beating the game with lots of difficulty-enhancing vows would have its own leaderboard for sure, maybe even affect the ending.
- QTE boss fights
- humanity via microtransactions
- on rails & turret shooting sequences
- button for seeing through walls + enemy movements
- another button for slow motion
Last time I played (a few months ago) I got summoned within a few minutes almost all the time. This only stopped because I continued my playthrough as level <10, which normal players wouldn't do. I was still summoned at the gargoyles though. The "major" "summoning failed" issues were fixed by a patch that came out a few months after release (I played through it before that patch).
-tetsuo-
Unlimited Capacity
It isn't always that easy in Dark Souls. The online system was kind of terrible.
That's the crux of it. The Souls game are inherently niche, and given their particular game design philosophies, they are likely to always be without severe compromise.
From can't make it appealing to more people without sacrificing some of the things the series does that are essentially anti-mainstream. The general gaming public - even the "hardcore" segment - has been weaned for years now on much easier, dumber fare, and without bringing Dark Souls closer to that level, they won't appeal to those gamers.
Sir Ilpalazzo
Member
You can summon people or NPCs to trivialize bosses because no boss fight is balanced around having multiple players, you can rely on sorcery or pyromancy because they get unbelievably strong very fast (and magic in Demon's Souls was even stronger), and you can go out of your way to level up (or, in other words, grind). The game gives you a lot of options.
This is pretty cliche, but it is true that all of the promotional materials for Dark Souls - even the hilarious Engrish press release that was on the official site - go on and on about how you have to learn from death to progress. That's one of the game's core concepts.
Look at it like this. How would you have a game where you don't get your ass kicked over and over without just making it easy? If you die, then you did something wrong. Because Dark Souls is an action game first and foremost, it's generally not too hard to realize what you did wrong. The only way to keep the player from dying over and over would be to make it harder to die, which would just mean reducing the difficulty.
That's what the NPC summons are there for. I mean, I'm not excusing the problems with the online system, but the option is there.
RoboGeorgeForeman
Banned
Which is what they're aiming to fix in this sequel so hopefully it won't be an issue.
MegaKungFuRadio
Member
I don't disagree, but I just accepted that it was part of the appeal for people.
3rdamention
Member
So then it is no longer a game for "old school gamers"????? Geoff!
In seriousness, I would assume this is a bad thing. I never played the first one, but I loved reading some of the impressions of the game on these forums. I thought the difficulty was what made the game stand out.
Hmmmmmm.
In seriousness, I would assume this is a bad thing. I never played the first one, but I loved reading some of the impressions of the game on these forums. I thought the difficulty was what made the game stand out.
Hmmmmmm.
H_Prestige
Banned
Man, I really wish I played Demon's during its prime. I remember when I started I saw so many messages all over the ground, like at least three times as many as I usually saw in Dark. Were summon signs that proliferous at one time?
There were never an obscene amount of signs in Demon's Souls. In its prime though, there were definitely quite a few more than there are now.
Dark Souls II: Absolution
IrishNinja
Member
some of ya'll are still pretending the only worrying thing about that OP bit is the word accessible, huh? not all the other quotes, changes of director/direction etc just GAF BEIN GAF LOL
i enjoyed heavy rain and a boy & his blob, perhaps not for the same reasons though
no offense, but this and your follow-up post kinda show you don't really follow the series you're speaking on here
it's been said, but difficulty tiers would literally break the balance, so that idea is awful. however, the 2nd part of your post is what fixes that: if scamco wouldn'tve separated the servers & had such a mess of them pre-patch, you could've taken your first trip through blightown with an escort, for instance.
see jokes like this aren't funny when nearly half of that sounds like things people in this thread have actually wanted, ugh
i know the souls series gets crazy love on GAF (and therefore there's naturally gonna be backlash) but do other series get this too, where people post in their threads asking for things entirely antithetical to said series? "Virtua Fighter's great, but what if some fights were determined by kinect games of paper/rock scissors, or DLC weapons"
needed to be quoted again for the new page
i enjoyed heavy rain and a boy & his blob, perhaps not for the same reasons though
no offense, but this and your follow-up post kinda show you don't really follow the series you're speaking on here
it's been said, but difficulty tiers would literally break the balance, so that idea is awful. however, the 2nd part of your post is what fixes that: if scamco wouldn'tve separated the servers & had such a mess of them pre-patch, you could've taken your first trip through blightown with an escort, for instance.
see jokes like this aren't funny when nearly half of that sounds like things people in this thread have actually wanted, ugh
i know the souls series gets crazy love on GAF (and therefore there's naturally gonna be backlash) but do other series get this too, where people post in their threads asking for things entirely antithetical to said series? "Virtua Fighter's great, but what if some fights were determined by kinect games of paper/rock scissors, or DLC weapons"
needed to be quoted again for the new page
IdreamofHIME
Member
I'd stick a spear between them.
HAHA I'm saying my penis is bigger than yours! HAHA!
MegaKungFuRadio
Member
I would like to add that Demon's/Dark Souls fans a partly to blame for this.
I've seen way too many times when other people who didn't like the game for what it was tried to join the discussion that were just dismissed as bad gamers who only like easy games.
I remember seeing a (former) mod basically talk shit for post after post about how people who don't like Demon's Souls just suck at it. I've even seen people deny that this is a niche series, which, honestly, how deluded do you have to be to believe that?
I've seen way too many times when other people who didn't like the game for what it was tried to join the discussion that were just dismissed as bad gamers who only like easy games.
I remember seeing a (former) mod basically talk shit for post after post about how people who don't like Demon's Souls just suck at it. I've even seen people deny that this is a niche series, which, honestly, how deluded do you have to be to believe that?
RoboGeorgeForeman
Banned
But one of the new directors (Tomohiro Shibuya) worked on OG Monster Hunter, Freedom 2, and Resident Evil: Outbreak; so I'm more intrigued than worried. I just hope it retains its challenge and retains that special whatever that makes each play-through unique.
Riposte
Member
I dislike systems like that. I feel like they could always be implemented more sensibly. At the end of the day they are no different from difficulty settings, but they are even more interfering and convoluted (harder to ignore).
Oh you.
Riposte
Member
It came from an Edge dude.
H_Prestige
Banned
Thankfully FROM didn't make that statement.
MegaKungFuRadio
Member
Also the sentence directly following the bolded shows awareness.
Oh you're right. Got confused in the midst of quotation marks.
Then never mind...although the fact that it has new directors does make me extremely cautious.
MidnightCowboy
Member
It does not sound like they are sacrificing difficulty, which is fine by me. The Souls games are pretty cryptic at times, which is part of the appeal, but it's not a make or break design decision if they choose to ease up on that stuff. It can still be a hardcore game without the need to check a wiki or forum. Now if the same design choices are made for the story, then that is a definite problem.
Phonomezer
Banned
Oh the thread title change is instilling fear in my heart. This must be part of the game
It is certainly true that once whatever "accessibility changes" are made to Souls and it see's a great success (which it will) those changes are permanent. Or at the very least will be extremely hard to make the financial and creative case for abandoning said changes. So if the game is being diluted or compartmentalized in mainstream ways, expect it to stay that way, no way this doesn't do well.
But I'd agree that the biggest "change" From needs to practice in the new game is balancing, faster transitions technically and overall polish.
I think for me the main things they need to keep are:
the art style
the sparse snippets of story to explain the world
the multiplayer elements
using souls as a single currency
the intertwined paths and secret areas
the variety of weapons, armor, magic, items etc
how you can make your own special combination of fighting style
the bosses
your bloodstain mechanic
the difficulty
the mysteries
how a weapon's move set is just as important as the damage stat
How brisk and responsive the combat is
How cautiously you have to play - at least your first time through.
The things I think they might need to address are:
having an easy mode, perhaps with fewer items and fewer black phantoms
How easy NG+ and higher are - why does the first boss on the 2nd play-through only take one or two hits? We're not weak newbies at that point anymore.
looking up a wiki page all the time about items - maybe have old sketches of items or hidden rumor notes hidden across the land that contain some of the more obscure info about an item
The covenants don't have a whole lot of depth
Black phantoms sometimes play really cheap - like getting getting wrath of god knocked off that area in anor londo with the archers. There's nothing you can do, you either sit and wait them out or go and die.
the art style
the sparse snippets of story to explain the world
the multiplayer elements
using souls as a single currency
the intertwined paths and secret areas
the variety of weapons, armor, magic, items etc
how you can make your own special combination of fighting style
the bosses
your bloodstain mechanic
the difficulty
the mysteries
how a weapon's move set is just as important as the damage stat
How brisk and responsive the combat is
How cautiously you have to play - at least your first time through.
The things I think they might need to address are:
having an easy mode, perhaps with fewer items and fewer black phantoms
How easy NG+ and higher are - why does the first boss on the 2nd play-through only take one or two hits? We're not weak newbies at that point anymore.
looking up a wiki page all the time about items - maybe have old sketches of items or hidden rumor notes hidden across the land that contain some of the more obscure info about an item
The covenants don't have a whole lot of depth
Black phantoms sometimes play really cheap - like getting getting wrath of god knocked off that area in anor londo with the archers. There's nothing you can do, you either sit and wait them out or go and die.
Funchameleon
Banned
These games have more animation priority than any game I've ever known, and Dark Souls has a terrible thing where it will randomly queue inputs and perform the actions one after another.
The combat is interesting. The combat is good. The combat is not "brisk and responsive" -- it's deliberate and punishing.
Portugeezer
Gold Member
Just have "normal" and "souls" difficulty option.
IrishNinja
Member
really surprised to see how many times this bad idea rears its head in this thread, by people who seem to really dig the balance of the game too
again proper summoning lets you keep both
what was your lvl/gear? i know the belltower 2 were definitely easier, but the twins in anor londo for instance felt every bit as hard, for me
agreed, this struck me as dark's biggest missed opportunity - coudlve had way more lore/etc to them, really hoping for that next time because they're a fantastic addition to the series...having a PvP killer one was excellent
Demon's Souls would have never made it out of Japan if it had Easy or Normal modes like some in this thread are absolutely horribly suggesting.
It would have never gained notoriety as a game if it weren't for the challenge. The game only caught my attention, and the Western hemisphere's attention because of the "Demon's Souls will break you" user reviews.
It would have been slammed as a generic ARPG, poor man's Monster Hunter in all the reviews. It would have never won the GoTY 2008 from Gamespot if it had easy mode.
FROM knows that more than any of us. They've been specializing in precisely these kind of games, since 1995, and they know the difficulty = satisfaction theory all too well. There's no way Dark Souls 2 is coming out with any easy mode or any hint of a difficulty slider, not until FROM is in charge.
It would have never gained notoriety as a game if it weren't for the challenge. The game only caught my attention, and the Western hemisphere's attention because of the "Demon's Souls will break you" user reviews.
It would have been slammed as a generic ARPG, poor man's Monster Hunter in all the reviews. It would have never won the GoTY 2008 from Gamespot if it had easy mode.
FROM knows that more than any of us. They've been specializing in precisely these kind of games, since 1995, and they know the difficulty = satisfaction theory all too well. There's no way Dark Souls 2 is coming out with any easy mode or any hint of a difficulty slider, not until FROM is in charge.
If I didn't spoil myself about a return to a certain place or several obscure bonfires I probably would have rage quit a long time ago. It really did feel like table top dnd with and asshole dm at times. That said, it's still my favorite game this gen.
Just give me that excellent combat and an atmosphere that rivals the moodiest game you can think of and I'll be happy.
Just give me that excellent combat and an atmosphere that rivals the moodiest game you can think of and I'll be happy.
burntchomsky
Member
I agree with the people here who are saying that there were certainly aspects of how the game explained things and introduced the player to its world that were done extremely poorly. The idea of having a few hidden secrets is cool, but I did feel that dark souls went a bit too far in that direction overall. I did my first playthrough intentionally without reading any strategy guides and really enjoyed the game, but ended up missing dark blade covenant, gwyndolin, painted world, and the return to the starting jail. There were a few hints in those regards, but abysmally little.
Just some more hinting towards what may allow for a secret to be discovered would go a long way in my opinion.
Also, I'm sure that for a new player, giving them some vague idea about possibly ringing a bell twice, and giving no more exposition is a tough thing to deal with. More exposition at the beginning is not going to hurt the series.
The only other thing that they certainly could make more accessible is never ever putting stupid sections like anor londo gigantic arrows.
Overall, the difficulty level needs to stay where it is. As it is, anyone who has toughed through one playthrough of the game can generally ace it the second playthrough. It's not the mechanics of combat that are so difficult, it is more figuring out boss patterns, etc.
Just some more hinting towards what may allow for a secret to be discovered would go a long way in my opinion.
Also, I'm sure that for a new player, giving them some vague idea about possibly ringing a bell twice, and giving no more exposition is a tough thing to deal with. More exposition at the beginning is not going to hurt the series.
The only other thing that they certainly could make more accessible is never ever putting stupid sections like anor londo gigantic arrows.
Overall, the difficulty level needs to stay where it is. As it is, anyone who has toughed through one playthrough of the game can generally ace it the second playthrough. It's not the mechanics of combat that are so difficult, it is more figuring out boss patterns, etc.
The Xtortionist
Member
Yep. I think most players would find at least a large chunk of Dark Souls to be trivial if the game emphasized the importance of backstabs in the tutorial, and clearly explained the process and benefits of summoning phantoms.