I hope the environment hazards only get tougher. This isn't a valid complaint, it's a hard section of the game with a very simple solution to those who are enterprising enough to experiment with the game.
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Edge 249: Dark Souls II. To be more "direct," "straightforward," and "understandable"
- Thread starter Visualante2
- Start date
revolverjgw
Member
Good. I thought DS was janky, unbalanced, annoyingly designed and almost broken in places (and not just in terms of making things harder or more irritating or vague- I didn't know by choosing pyro that I'd be able to shred bosses in seconds). Not that it didn't play great, but by all means, tweak it, it needs it. I mainly played it for the unbelievably great atmosphere and art and that's what I'll be going back for, that part will be guaranteed gold.
GillianSeed79
Member
Eh, I can understand why Demons/Dark Souls fans would be pissed.
On the other hand, what would be so bad about having an optional difficulty for those of us who just don't have the time to put into mastering these games. Go ahead and call it “Pussy Mode” and just don't allow us on the leaderboards.
For the love of god just don't pull a Ninja Gaiden 3.
I know the common response is, but but Demons/Dark Souls is easy, you just have to be patient! That's great. I really, really wish I had your patience and free time.
On the other hand, what would be so bad about having an optional difficulty for those of us who just don't have the time to put into mastering these games. Go ahead and call it “Pussy Mode” and just don't allow us on the leaderboards.
For the love of god just don't pull a Ninja Gaiden 3.
I know the common response is, but but Demons/Dark Souls is easy, you just have to be patient! That's great. I really, really wish I had your patience and free time.
No, a valid complaint is that it was an unfun - whether or not you know how to get past it. They're pacing you on narrow paths where even a blocked arrow from the wrong angle has to ability to knock your instant death - and a full 5 minutes away from a bonfire at that.
It was not satisfyingly tough like much of the game, it just made me want to beat up that particular designers children.
Sir Ilpalazzo
Member
If you don't like the Souls games as they are now, then why don't you just find a game that appeals to you more instead of asking for this series to be dumbed down? Even if the only thing they do to make the game more accessible is add an easier difficulty, that'll still be resources they could have spent elsewhere.
EatinOlives
Member
I never found it "unfun", not once.
I don't fully expect a game to be fun all of the time! Not to mention that saying something isn't fun is an entirely arbitrary judgment of its quality. I play competitive fighters and I get pretty salty when I lose, but I don't consider it to be the game or the game designer's fault that character X has an advantage over my character. Just means I need to learn, which can be frustrating, especially when the opponent has lots of advantages! It's super satisfying when you succeed as a result though.
Lost Fragment
Obsessed with 4chan
Dark Souls would be pretty mediocre if it wasn't for the difficulty. Playing a Souls game that you don't have to play slowly and methodically would be like playing checkers on a chess set. You'd have one set of players playing one game, then a different set playing something almost completely different. And it's not just that it's simply difficult. It's the way that it's difficult, and it's because of this that if From made different difficulty modes, it WOULD very likely affect everyone.
If people don't like Dark Souls because it's hard, or just don't have the time or patience or whatever to play through it, then I don't care. I'm fine with that. I just don't understand why these people can't just go play something else.
Of All Trades
Member
Some elements of any game can be poorly designed, and weaker players may not be experienced at gaming enough to sufficiently be capable of finding and using exploit tactics; the Capra Demon comes to mind first, as it's an encounter that for most doesn't really involve learning so much as it is noticing that the stairs cause the AI to glitch/pattern. They aren't refusing to learn, they just aren't capable of recognizing flaws.
As for the bell, I don't literally mean stopping all progress, I mean taking away unique positive reinforcement elements that don't really have much gameplay purpose like feet-good cutscenes. If you want to go in the other direction, using the one-shot method (it wouldn't even be one-hit) could put a dunce cap on the player which gets more and more ludicrous with each use.
This isn't advanced design, this is just basic cheat code shit. God fucking forbid that a game that pretty much requires either a wiki, a message board, or being a cheeto-encrusted basement dweller to really get every aspect of include some sort of cheats (that aren't giant bugs like the dragon helmet trick).
Yes it is.. so let us Souls players at least have one challenging & satisfying game series. Please, praise the sun ! Games of the Generation.
You forgot iron sights dawg.
There are ways to create harder environmental hazards without reaching the bullshit levels of the Anor Londo archer section.
GillianSeed79
Member
Whoa, whoa, relax guys. I'm not asking them to change anything, I'm just commenting on the article that indicates they are trying to make it more accessible.
I'm just saying, if they are going to go that route why not just make it a seperate mode. Obviously the whole point of the Souls series is the challenge. Watering it down defeats the purpose and reason why fans love the game.
I gave Demons a good shot a few years ago, but came to the conclusion the franchise wasn't for me. I'd much rather they keep the series the way fans like it, but if they are going to do this they should at least make it so it's clearly not meant to be the main difficulty mode. I remember old 8-bit a 16-bit games on easy were baby modes, but often didn't let you finish the whole game or, if you did, you wouldn't get the ending or access to the hi-score leader board.
Every game is not for every person. Don't have the time, play another game. This attitude is the reason mmo games have gone themepark model. You can't get the satifaction from honing your skills, without taking the time to hone your skills.
People that love souls games.= Guy that built his company. Tough times, sad times, days when you thought it was a waste. Then looking back, the satifaction you met the challenge.
Some games are fun and thats it. Please don't let souls turn into ass creed. (Gillian not trying to attack you just wanted to make a point.)
Haunted
Member
Completely disagree, in my opinion that specific part was one of the worst parts of the game. It was cheap, something I was not expecting from a Souls game.
I have nothing against environment hazards. If you ask me, I'll say that Demon's Soul levels 3-1 and 3-2 (Boss Included) represent the best designs as far as environment hazards are involved.
RockTurtle
Member
You know, i dont know if i would have ever found the dragon covenant on my own with the 200 hours ive played
Lol
OK. That one is just bad, thats true. The last quarter of the game is filled with moments like that. This goes back to what I was saying in the announcement thread. It's like you can instantly tell when they ran out of money while playing Dark Souls.
The suffering of people who can't push up on the analog stick.
Real talk: I never died against the Anor Londo archers. Why are they supposed to be hard? The arrows are slow as hell and get stuck in the railing almost 100% of the time. Not to mention if you go the right way, one of them can't even hit you can you can just melee the one you run into. I never understood this complaint. They aren't even the scariest thing in Anor Londo.
NekoToshiro
Member
I need invisible walls and signs telling me where to go. Maybe a GPS? Similar to Alan wake's Verison cellular phone GPS.
I want Google maps and to be able to set way points and call airstrikes.
evilromero
Member
Jesus christ what a statement. I love the fact that there are parts of DS that I'll never discover. It reminds me of the early days of gaming where there was still so much mystery left in the game world even after you beat it.
Hot Coldman
Banned
hnnngnggg
We'll know if From has succeeded or not if we get a follow-up to this in a year or two's time.
Riposte
Member
It never fails. Someone talks up how hip they are with Dark Souls, but quickly reveal their true colors once something gets under their skin. Having dealt with the archers, they are not cheap. Man up. Which is the usual answer because very little of Dark Souls is poorly designed like that.
I'd love more accessibility. What kept me going back for more was the gameplay and the MP system. Everything else was just needlessly convoluted and bordered on lazy. Choosing not to explain things seemingly just because. It was a game that pretty much required you to check wiki's.
evilromero
Member
I will GLADLY eat crow if this game comes out and destroys my expectation. I'll just be happy it's great. Hell, I want it to be great. But making it as big as Elder Scrolls? Hmmm.
Sir Ilpalazzo
Member
Yeah, I think the archers and the capra demon are alright (and I was one of the people who bitched about the capra demon when I first got there). Both of those encounters are a little harder to learn than most of the rest of the game on your first time through, but once you understand what to do in each segment, they're no big deal. If they were as cheap or horrible as some people say, they would be unlearnable.
evilromero
Member
Did you enjoy the original Metroid trilogy? Or even the original Zelda trilogy? Games don't need to "say" or tell us anything. Put in a compelling environment and let the world speak for itself.
So are you acknowledging that it was poorly designed?
The capra demon can actually make the game considerably easier since you can get summoned pretty much instantly, over and over again, for massive soul farming.
The only part of Dark Souls that I genuinely disliked was Lost Izalith. That's not really a question of accessibility, though... just bad design.
Riposte
Member
I don't know how you could come to this conclusion reading that post.
EDIT: Oh. "Like that" meaning "like the way they think it is", rather than "like the archers".
Then I have no idea what were you trying to say.
Edit: Welp, we remain in disagreement then. In all honestly, that part and a few other moments of Dark Souls really felt cheap. (Something I didn't see in Demon's Souls)
And to actually feel an accomplishment when you beat a game, great stuff. As opposed to most today, where the only thing you can really say is that you experienced a game.
Games don't "need" to do anything. I'd just like them to in this case.
I just feel like in the case of Dark Souls, there was so much story there that they WANTED to tell us but just didn't. All of the items had these great, well thought out descriptions and I would've loved to learn more about this world they built. The storyline with the sisters was so compelling but the way they told it was so needlessly confusing and I'm sure many just plain missed it. You had to do certain things at certain times and go back and forth between characters. Just tell your story. Stop being vague for the sake of being vague.
The sun knight (name?) was along the same lines. I read about how to keep him alive and continue using him because I was curious about where his character went and in the end it didn't pay off one bit. Saving him was convoluted as hell too. But I'm sure SOMEwhere in the lore it's explained why he's so significant.
Haunted
Member
There is very little story in Dark Souls, but there's a ton of great world building and lore hidden in the descriptions, like you said. I don't think there's much of a plot they wanted to tell, actually.
Piecing things together yourself and building up that world in your mind with the various bits and pieces was great fun, I thought. There's something to be said about being vague and mysterious and not spelling everything out straight away.
The character "stories" you talk about aren't much more than tiny vignettes comparable in depth and importance to Skyrim NPC's random ambient speech. Absolutely not worth the investment.
I'm actually not aware of Solaire's bigger significance for the world (if there is any). I think he's popular because he has a positive attitude and is helpful and that's pretty rare in the world of Dark Souls.
All the Anor Londo Archer talk just sounds like "I'm bad, make the game easier, but I don't want to admit it" to me.
I'd like you to give an example of this, I can't really think of any.
I'd like you to give an example of this, I can't really think of any.
I'm going through dark souls right now for the first time and I'm in anor londo and I just got past the part where I had to run up the building and fight those two archers before going into the castle. Is this the part you guys are talking about or is there going to be some other section with a'lot of archers? cause I didn't think fighting those two guys was to bad and only died like 5 times before making it inside.
IrishNinja
Member
i get responding to hyperbole with hyperbole, but again, i'm kinda surprised to see anyone who's even remotely familiar with the series not getting this reaction. it's everything you don't want to hear, especially from namco.
let's try another angle: if Day-Z (arma 2) kept its momentum, got bought up & turned into its own game with a solid budget & support, then said publisher asked "why don't we make it more like Left 4 Dead 2, or say a COD zombie campaign?", you'd expect - and get - a similar response at the very question.
if that feels so far off the mark, go back & look at namco's sales expectations for Splatterhouse and Clash of the Titans. when you couple a new director with talk of Skyrim - a game that absolutely sold the kind've #'s they want niche titles to sell, regardless of how - i don't think it illogical to be worried about the direction they intend to take.
will i still be optimistic & excited to see screenshots, inevitable trailers etc? absolutely, and if it remains the series many of us have adored for 2 installments now, this will be naught but the kneejerk reaction you & some others seem to be seeing. I sincerely hope you're right.
I explained the answer to this in the post you quoted. If the game forces a reductions of the game's mysteries upon me, I've had no choice in the matter. If I have to run to the Dark Souls Wiki to understand something, I'm making the active choice to do so. I can, on the other hand, not look that up, and enjoy that aspect of not knowing/understanding something until I've figured it out on my own.
But the game's director never made a comparison to Skyrim in the first place! That was all on the article's writer.
As haunted said, much of the lore can be found in the many item descriptions. I wish they would've told some of those stories or at least did a better job of bringing them to the forefront.
"Hood/Robe/Gloves/Waistcloth- Apparel worn by the alabaster-clothed guardians of the paintings in Anor Londo. Offers substantial protection versus magic.
"They have guarded the Great Paintings of Ariamis for ages, passing their duty down through the generations, but the reason for doing so passed from all memory long ago."
And other things like how you actually found the Gold Hemmed set seemed interesting. All in all, I wanted to learn and experience more about the world I was in. I always felt like I was just running through a really beautiful diorama completely detached from the world. I still don't understand exactly what I was supposed to be doing.
Riposte
Member
How do you deal with the fact that others can solve that part consistently?
Weapon upgrades in Dark Souls require players to actually be willing to delve into experimentation—unfortunately, I think too many players these days are too lazy to try anything unless they know exactly what's going to happen. I have no sympathy for those players.
And there's nothing wrong with the equipment burden system in Dark Souls.
No no no no no. Same thing as above—players are too lazy these days. When I played the original Legend of Zelda, I was given a sword and told to go do stuff. That's what I did. Why does there have to be so much hand-holding in games?
This is another thing about modern-day game mentality that bugs me: the idea that players should be able to see or do everything, especially on one play through (though I know you aren't directly saying that second part). Players should miss things if they don't put effort into finding them. When I played the original Metroid, I ran around the game and bombed every segment of the world I could find, looking for secrets. I tried the wall climb in nearly every door. I made maps. Games used to require that of players, and if players didn't put in the effort, the game wouldn't reward them. That's changed so much over time.
Yes, I'm (slightly) old, and possibly quite bitter. I love the Souls games, because they remind me of games that don't exist anymore, and because it forced me to actually earn whatever reward I was given.
That's another part of Dark Souls that I love, though. I love not knowing exactly what happened in and to this world. I love being given only small snippets of story, instead of having narrative and cutscenes shoved down my throat. I love the minimalism of it all, and the opportunity to decide for myself what happened here. I think that vague style of storytelling adds to the game, and it wouldn't be the same if it told too much.
Eh, you got it wrong... the issue isn't if it can be solved, the issue is if it is cheap or not. You know, weak/poor design choices from the developers?
Telling a story via details and in an unlinear fashion is a valid way of telling a story as any other. It's about the player piercing the story by himself (or with a community). I, and others as seen on this very thread, find it very rewarding to put a story together piece by piece and eventually coming to see the full picture of the world and what transpired on it. It's a different method of story telling that's effectively unique to gaming really (Metroid Prime does similar with the scans).
There are more than enough other games that tell stories in a straight manner (too many in my opinion) if you so prefer, but that doesn't make this any less of a valid method of story telling.
This type of unique ways of telling stories through a medium should be incentivize.
It's the first time you encounter those archers and the nearest bonfire is a good distance away with enemies. Once you figure what you need to do, it's not hard to replicate but the situation doesn't lend itself well to experimentation.
edit: the archer on the left can still sometimes hit you even after you make it to the top as well even though there is a wall in the way.
Sir Ilpalazzo
Member
What exactly is a cheap design choice? The archer spot is a challenge like any other in Dark Souls.
And really, the real culprit for cheapness is Bed of Chaos, thanks to how poorly designed that entire fight was. Hell, they even more or less admitted to it with being able to cheese that fight as you're able to with it saving progress for each section you complete.