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[IAmRandom31]

The problem with eSRAM is not that it's "hard to develop" it's that it's no match for a better GPU with constant 176GBs access to a full 8GB of GDDR5.

A little 32MB scratch pad with questionable bandwidth is only going to go so far. Developers had all last gen to learn how to work around eDRAM on the 360 and even the PS2 before that. It's not like it's an exotic configuration like the Cell with its oddball SPEs and such that developers eventually figured out for the most part. eSRAM is just a hack to compensate for slow system RAM.

Best description I've heard yet on here.

Even at its best, eSRAM bandwidth is barely higher then the constant bandwidth of the GDDR5 to GPU in the PS4. And you have 250x more RAM to work with on the PS4 at those speeds.

I bought the 360 at launch, I saw the potential, the games, etc. Thought it was awesome ( until I had to replace it 6 times in 12 months, in a well ventilated area with extra fans on it ). Geometry Wars sold me lol. This time around, man there is not a single game or thing about the X1 that says " buy me ". The tech inside is .... man ... it shocked me when I saw it.

I expected the Wii U to be underpowered. Thats just Nintendo's way. They seem to be terrified of the HD age. But MS? With all the money they can throw around? I thought it was going to be a beast of a system. Instead it is basically 4 year old tech thrown inside a multimedia box. Only MS could break the sacred " consoles do not have massive OS overheard to worry about " pact and not just match PC's OS overheard, but freakin destroy it with 3x OS's all fighting for resources. Staggering.

 

[MWS Natural]

How long before MS brokers deals to make developers keep parity across both systems or not push the PS4 version to it's limits?

 

[Pop]

The next big bomba for me would be Destiny. I think that's going to be a make or break title for MS to achieve parity with.

X1 multiplats will never look on par with Ps4 unless the developers purposely go for that.

 

[Sporran]

The Xbox One can only really get less worse.

Depends on whether your a half full half empty type of person. But I would have said "The Xbox One can only really get better".

 

[IN&OUT]

People who said "multiplat will look identical"....how does that turn out to be..?

 

[sun-drop]

i've been gaming since well .. the C64 .. and if i've learned anything it's usually if two consoles launch directly opposite each other ... the looser usually ends up dead in the water.

i mean who could seriously recommend a xbox over ps4 , it's $100 cheap, and more capable re graphics. game over.

i mean the two biggest shooters out there currently, Bf and COD, both run better on sony's console ... COD is particularly damming as considering the relationship that dev has with MS over the years .. i mean, you'd think they would have been given every opportunity to be successful on xbone. but yet it's easier for them to hit 1080p on ps4, out of the gate. and ps4 development isn't operating ina vacuum .. it's bound to advance at the usual rapid pace we always see in console games year over year. a good solid start means bigger gains the next year.

anyways ... when an obvious choice launches close enough to a competitor ... people typically start thinking about where the best place for their cash is ... decisions are way more black and white.

MS may have more cash that SEGA did when DC got swept away by PS2 .. so they will stick in their. but yeh ... how could you recommend a xbone over ps4? hell if you have that much of a hardone for titain fall ... wait till march ... MS will be dropping the price to compete without doubt.

 

[IAmRandom31]

Depends on whether your a half full half empty type of person. But I would have said "The Xbox One can only really get better".

I think he means, these launch titles are just the tip of the iceberg in terms of next-gen engines.

Soon we will have PC gaming with the Mantle API and such. So PC ported titles will be FAR more demanding on the hardware. Console exclusive titles will 100% of the time be worked on the PS4 first, since it is the most powerful console and easiest to develop for, and then ported down as best as possible to the X1. These next-gen engines are going to be pushing harder .. and harder .. and harder.

The X1 can't even handle Call of Duty, which barely even pushed the current gen engines forward.

Doesnt the 360xPS3 do Call of Duty @ 720p native?

 

[KevKevinator]

Firstly where did i state which will sell more? I merely pointed out that history has never favored the most powerful console yet so many here are acting as if ps4's power is it's most important factor.

Secondly they are not equal in feature set, one comes with kinect.

I lol'd

 

[nib95]

And that's a distinct possibility (I even think it's likely). I was playing devil's advocate to present a reasonable counterpoint (something we don't often see due to emotional investment in the warz).

Yes, if compute is all that it's cracked up to be (which I believe it is, since we haven't seen any evidence to the contrary), the gap will widen once more. Hopefully, though, the XB1 won't be stuck with 720 on most of its games.

My guess is that many/most games will remain 720p going forward on the Xbox One (or 900p). The reality is, the further in to the dev cycle we get, the more graphically and bandwidth intense visuals and tech these games will be pushing, far more resource intensiveness than anything we've seen at launch even. Couple that with trying to meet parity with what the PS4 can muster. and I think more 720p games is a fore gone conclusion. Hell, even Cboat mentioned as much. So yes, drastic optimisations will occur, but so will the resource demand of the graphical features pushed, and the degree the competition is advancing them.

There's also the issue of the Esram's size. Which as some have mentioned, with deferred rendering is simply not an adequate size to fit the relevant frame buffer size needed for 1080p.

 

[IN&OUT]

X1 can run identical multiplat with PS4 in ONLY one case:

If developers choose to gimp PS4 version to X1 levels.

 

[Metfanant]

Doesnt the 360xPS3 do Call of Duty @ 720p native?

no, both current gen consoles are sub-HD....and lets be honest...do you really think Ghosts is going to look the same on the Xbone in 720p as it does on the PS360 in 720p??...thats just asinine to suggest that resolution is the ONLY factor in graphics...

 

[wapplew]

I think Xbone can overcome the situation by launching Xbox one S next year.
Full backward compatible, 12G GDDR, better CPU & GPU, same price, and lower the price of old Xbox one to 349.
Just copy the mobile yearly hardware update.

 

[Kagari]

I think Xbone can overcome the situation by launching Xbox one S next year.
Full backward compatible, 12G GDDR, better CPU & GPU, same price, and lower the price of old Xbox one to 349.
Just copy the mobile yearly hardware update.

It doesn't work that way. Nor should it.

 

[SwiftDeath]

Glad I ressed this thread

CBOAT said that they might improve the tools... but the gap will always be there, it's not another "CELL" type situation at all.

Agreed I don't see a 1080p heavy future for the XB1 to be honest, with the new rendering techniques that 32mb scratchpad will alway be a bottleneck but unlike the cell you can't get a ton more juice with proper coding for it

Wow, this thread returns. I believe I posted earlier in here that I didn't believe the difference would be that large at launch. How wrong I was.

Yep same with me. I'll gladly eat crow on that. I expected the differences to be greater than Albert's "single digit framerate differences" but never expected a 720p60fps vs 1080p60fps scenario. That's crazy for launch

Cerny wasn't joking about that time to triangle

People who said "multiplat will look identical"....how does that turn out to be..?

See above. I believed we might get parity in some of the bigger games. COD especially

Oh how wrong I was. Good to see IW not gimping the PS4 version

On another note I wonder if the "time to triangle", the ease of development present on the PS4 will make indies more receptive of it? Sure they're not pushing crazy graphics most likely but it's got to factor in right?

 

[cheezcake]

I think Xbone can overcome the situation by launching Xbox one S next year.
Full backward compatible, 12G GDDR, better CPU & GPU, same price, and lower the price of old Xbox one to 349.
Just copy the mobile yearly hardware update.

You can't just change the specs of the machine

What happens to all the people on old XB1's when their year old machine suddenly either can't play certain new games or plays heavily gimped version of them.

 

[bigboss370]

Glad I ressed this thread



Agreed I don't see a 1080p heavy future for the XB1 to be honest, with the new rendering techniques that 32mb scratchpad will alway be a bottleneck but unlike the cell you can't get a ton more juice with proper coding for it



Yep same with me. I'll gladly eat crow on that. I expected the differences to be greater than Albert's "single digit framerate differences" but never expected a 720p60fps vs 1080p60fps scenario. That's crazy for launch

Cerny wasn't joking about that time to triangle



See above. I believed we might get parity in some of the bigger games. COD especially

Oh how wrong I was. Good to see IW not gimping the PS4 version

On another note I wonder if the "time to triangle", the ease of development present on the PS4 will make indies more receptive of it? Sure they're not pushing crazy graphics most likely but it's got to factor in right?

Yeah I think I recall some indies and the F2P games devs talking about how easy and fast it was to get their game up and running on PS4.

 

[Sweep14]

Also Sony has more ACEs for gpgpu....
And HUMA....
By the time they figure out ESRAM...
I think the gap will widen personally

Ditto.

 

[TetraGenesis]

Ditto.

Di-three.

Spoiler

That doesn't make any sense. I also agree.

 

[andromeduck]

I think Xbone can overcome the situation by launching Xbox one S next year.
Full backward compatible, 12G GDDR, better CPU & GPU, same price, and lower the price of old Xbox one to 349.
Just copy the mobile yearly hardware update.

you thought the response to their DRM/Online policies was rough...

 

[Nightengale]

I think Xbone can overcome the situation by launching Xbox one S next year.
Full backward compatible, 12G GDDR, better CPU & GPU, same price, and lower the price of old Xbox one to 349.
Just copy the mobile yearly hardware update.

If they start development tomorrow and start crunching daily, this imaginary product of yours will take at least 2-3 years to make.

You underestimate how long it takes to engineer new hardware.

 

[wapplew]

You can't just change the specs of the machine

What happens to all the people on old XB1's when their year old machine suddenly either can't play certain new games or plays heavily gimped version of them.

Maybe they try to pull off something like IOS, old hardware can play new games too?
Full backward and forward compatible, same game, 720p on old bone, 1080p on new bone.
The point is, with current spec of Xbox one, there is no way they can turn things around with better software all the crap rite?
Ms try to sell it as an entertainment box, I'm sure yearly upgrade fit their philosophy too.

 

[SwiftDeath]

If they start development tomorrow and start crunching daily, this imaginary product of yours will take at least 2-3 years to make.

You underestimate how long it takes to engineer new hardware.

Anyone else find cboat's mention of 20 months interesting?

f0cus your irea t the people waho made these dcsion w regarrdi!1n harwdawar. whe nmesentger is rigeght uo get mad, but I warn becau zei don't like wht ive sen over last 20 mons.

I mean there's no way the XB1 had the meat of development in the last 20 months right?

Seems like a short dev window on it

Off topic I just figured out how to quote from a locked thread, Yay

 

[Nightengale]

Maybe they try to pull off something like IOS, old hardware can play new games too?
Full backward and forward compatible, same game, 720p on old bone, 1080p on new bone.
The point is, with current spec of Xbox one, there is no way they can turn things around with better software all the crap rite?
Ms try to sell it as an entertainment box, I'm sure yearly upgrade fit their philosophy too.

There's a reason Intel Android and ARM Android have compatability issues with apps.

Software doesn't magicall scale to hardware.

 

[xxracerxx]

I think Xbone can overcome the situation by launching Xbox one S next year.
Full backward compatible, 12G GDDR, better CPU & GPU, same price, and lower the price of old Xbox one to 349.
Just copy the mobile yearly hardware update.

Yeah.....that will never happen.

 

[googleplex]

I think Xbone can overcome the situation by launching Xbox one S next year.
Full backward compatible, 12G GDDR, better CPU & GPU, same price, and lower the price of old Xbox one to 349.
Just copy the mobile yearly hardware update.

LOL No. you would basically be scrapping the current machine and all its software for a completely different one. Microsoft would sooner drop the Xbox division entirely before they throw away all of their current investment.

On another note I wonder if the "time to triangle", the ease of development present on the PS4 will make indies more receptive of it? Sure they're not pushing crazy graphics most likely but it's got to factor in right?

I'm pretty sure this is already happening .

 

[vcc]

I don't see how that could be the issue for devs when it's almost exactly how the 360 was setup?? This smells like BS to me. I'm sure things will get better as time goes on and devs learn to be more efficient with code, but then the same will happen on the PS4 side, and that raw horsepower advantage won't be overcome by clever coding.

The Cell on the PS3 needed memory bandwidth resources which were eaten up by the GPU. Devs there needed to juggle that resource to use it to help out the under power GPU.

The eSRAM on the Xb1 also has to be juggled so that it eats up as little main memory bandwidth as possible while providing as many cache hits to the GPU. A easier problem but still a problem that takes time.

The first year of the PS3 best practices to get okay performance weren't around. Dev's were crawling around in the dark without any dev tools and with manuals in japanese. This launch period the XB1 devs are crawling around in the dark with immature dev tools; although the manuals are in English.

I don't think it's going to be as hard to juggle but the reason it's 'harder' is because it's new and they haven't figured out the best practices to easily squeeze performance out so they have to resort to hamfisted techniques like resolution reduction or dropping AA.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

I mean there's no way the XB1 had the meat of development in the last 20 months right?

Seems like a short dev window on it

Just look at how MS rushed the 360's development and the problems that arose from it. MS has astonishingly terrible project management for a company which makes the operating system that runs on >90% of the world's computers. Windows Vista, Windows Phone 7, Windows 8, Windows Phone 8, Windows RT and Surface were all terribly managed projects which were pushed out long before they were ready. The slow agonizing death of Windows Phone 8 is particularly baffling to me, just what the hell are MS doing with that thing? Did they really spend billions to send it out to die like the Kin?

 

[Darak]

I think Xbone can overcome the situation by launching Xbox one S next year.
Full backward compatible, 12G GDDR, better CPU & GPU, same price, and lower the price of old Xbox one to 349.
Just copy the mobile yearly hardware update.

 

[Jburton]

How long before MS brokers deals to make developers keep parity across both systems or not push the PS4 version to it's limits?

I think that would actually become a legal matter, it's extremely anti competitive ........... no chance of it happening.

 

[FeiRR]

Fully forward compatible with future Xboxes would mean that the games on the One are running on an excessively thick abstraction layer compared to PS4. This would mean that Xbox One will never have the slightest chance to touch the PS4 performance. It would mean that performance-wise the Xbox One would be just some HTPC like a Steam box. I don't think this is the case. It would be horrible for every gamer that is willing to spend $500 on this product.

I read in some other thread that every X1 game on disc is a virtual machine with not only a game but the whole OS. I don't remember who wrote it and if there were any links to confirm or somebody was just mistaking OS update with VMs.

It'd make the above possible but also result in what you described.

 

[kitch9]

With recent rumors about COD being 720p on Xbone, added to an already big list of sub-HD games on Xbone, I had a simple explanation for this (you can take it with large grain of salt) but I will lay it down anyway:

I firmly believe that X1 GPU is more than capable of 1080p rendering, the problem lies in DDR3+eSRAM memory configuration for X1. 32mb of fast eSRAM is not enough to hold high-quality textures , it's just too small for such a huge increase in textures quality expected for next generation consoles. Sony was forward thinking by considering a TRUE unified pool of RAM for PS4 (accessible for both CPU/GPU at the same time). Xbox one will suffer throughout the generation, it's simply a machine that's not designed for 1080p gaming and the bottleneck is the memory system, not the GPU itself.

Cboat latest posts about 1080p being the exception in X1 just solidified my thought.

A gpu with 16 ROPs attached to a slow memory system is going to struggle to print 1080p's worth of pixels to a screen with modern game code.

Its as simple as that. MS have targeted 720p with their console / TV / Waft machine. They haven't even added much compute to the GPU to help the shitty ass CPU out that both machines are lumbered with.

 

[wapplew]

double post.

 

[Perkel]

A gpu with 16 ROPs attached to a slow memory system is going to struggle to print 1080p's worth of pixels to a screen with modern game code.

Its as simple as that. MS have targeted 720p with their console / TV / Waft machine.

More like 900p

Lack of grunt is keeping it from playing games at 1080p

 

[kitch9]

More like 900p

Lack of grunt is keeping it from playing games at 1080p

Nope, they went for 720p. 900p isn't even a recognized TV res. GPUS running on DDR3 simply struggle on anything higher they always have.

 

[wapplew]

Fully forward compatible with future Xboxes would mean that the games on the One are running on an excessively thick abstraction layer compared to PS4. This would mean that Xbox One will never have the slightest chance to touch the PS4 performance. It would mean that performance-wise the Xbox One would be just some HTPC like a Steam box. I don't think this is the case. It would be horrible for every gamer that is willing to spend $500 on this product.

Welp, that's the only idea I can think for MS, I guess that didn't went well.
You are rite, one thing the IOS way of forward compatible it the game doesn't really go "forward", developer always have the lowest spec in mind.

MS better step up their game on service and exclusive library.

 

[Perkel]

Nope, they went for 720p. 900p isn't even a recognized TV res.

No one cares about reconized res for games

16 rops is fine for 900p.

 

[kitch9]

No one cares about reconized res for games

16 rops is fine for 900p.

It isn't when you are trying to keep up with a machine that has double. If a game targets to saturate the rops @ 1080p on the competing machine to put it very simply the Xbox has to run the same code at 720p or make further sacrifices.

16 Rops will do 1080p but you have to make sacrifices to do so. Its not just rops where Xbox is lacking though.

 

[Finalizer]

Oh EDGE thread, I love you so~

Wow, this thread returns. I believe I posted earlier in here that I didn't believe the difference would be that large at launch. How wrong I was.

Been a fun ride, watching all the discussion and seeing how things ultimately turned out. I'm surprised to see a 720p/1080p difference in a game already, and CoD of all titles. And to think, this is just launch. Now we get to play the game of watching to see if the disparity widens or shrinks. More fun ahead.

How long before MS brokers deals to make developers keep parity across both systems or not push the PS4 version to it's limits?

It didn't happen before launch (arguably the most important time for it since this is when the hardcore crowd that cares about hardware power is the most influential), so don't count on it ever happening. MS' money is better put to use on nabbing exclusives.

Can we please set up a crow buffet in here? It seems like a fitting way to send this thread into the netherworld in style.

Oh god... 150+ pages to sift through, a bit much for even me, heh.

We could use a good 'ole wall-of-shame to see this entertaining thread out though.

 

[Dueck]

The one major factor I am curious to see is the system quality. The Xbox One is slower and has a casing that's a massive vent, as well as an external power supply. The PS4 has more powerful hardware in a smaller casing with a power supply inside.

 

[Perkel]

It isn't when you are trying to keep up with a machine that has double. If a game targets to saturate the rops @ 1080p on the competing machine to put it very simply the Xbox has to run the same code at 720p or make further sacrifices.

16 Rops will do 1080p but you have to make sacrifices to do so. Its not just rops where Xbox is lacking though.

Read again what i wrote to which you responded me for the first time.

 

[Yoday]

One thing I am really curious about is development time that has been spent on each of these platforms. If the Xbone has been difficult for developers to get their game up and running on, and the PS4 has been incredible east, then how has that affected resource allocation? Has the added effort needed to get things simply running on the Xbone meant that developers basically got things to a comfortable point on the PS4, and then differed resources to Xbone development without really optimizing the PS4 version? If this happened at all then the gap would have been even larger than it is now, and once developers get a chance to truly optimize for the PS4 the gap could widen at an alarming rate.

It will be interesting to see the comparisons of multiplatform games that start coming out later in 2014, after developers have had a good amount of time with both platforms. Watchdogs will be an interesting comparison for that reason.

 

[BigDug13]

The one major factor I am curious to see is the system quality. The Xbox One is slower and has a casing that's a massive vent, as well as an external power supply. The PS4 has more powerful hardware in a smaller casing with a power supply inside.

The XBO may be slower, but doesn't it have more transistors and just as much heating capability due to the ESRAM? And internal power supplies have been the norm for consoles for forever. MS decided to change it up with a huge brick with 360. And considering the flaws in the 360 design, I guess it was necessary. But now? I'm honestly surprised they continued with that route. XB1 didn't have one.

 

[ethomaz]

People needs to figure that eSRAM didn't help to increase the quality of the games... it is not magical... is is only a band-aid.

Xbone is weaker at hardware level... no software will change that.

 

[IN&OUT]

People needs to figure that eSRAM didn't help to increase the quality of the games... it is not magical... is is only a band-aid.

Xbone is weaker at hardware level... no software will change that.

Esram is only magical in beyond3d forums! I shake my head everytime I go there ( they are supposed to be knowledgeable about this) BUT there are some true Xbox die hards there.

 

[SwiftDeath]

The XBO may be slower, but doesn't it have more transistors and just as much heating capability due to the ESRAM? And internal power supplies have been the norm for consoles for forever. MS decided to change it up with a huge brick with 360. And considering the flaws in the 360 design, I guess it was necessary. But now? I'm honestly surprised they continued with that route. XB1 didn't have one.

Yes the ESram was likely a compromise too far to be honest

They must really have mandated that 8gb's of ram from on high because it screwed everything up although as they didn't do 64mb or so of EDram on a daughter die I think they must have also been mandated a more unified APU

The APU in the XB1 is quite large in today's terms and is due in large part to the ESram

So it likely has similar heat needs from the ram, maybe a little more from the CPU (due to the overclock) and then not sure on the GPU. Overclocking increases cooling needs at a greater than linear fashion. I doubt we'll see another RROD situation of course though. Doubt we'll see anything crazy on PS4's side either *fingers crossed* for all those involved

 

[Dueck]

The XBO may be slower, but doesn't it have more transistors and just as much heating capability due to the ESRAM? And internal power supplies have been the norm for consoles for forever. MS decided to change it up with a huge brick with 360. And considering the flaws in the 360 design, I guess it was necessary. But now? I'm honestly surprised they continued with that route. XB1 didn't have one.

Sony is really the only company putting the power supply inside the machine, excluding the original Xbox. Nintendo has always had it external (or almost external, in the case of the N64). The 360's first few years had by far the worst heat issues of anything I can recall, but the PS2 models from the Japanese launch up until the 35001 series weren't so great themselves. This is definitely a case of "time will tell," I just think it might be a cause for concern in the near future.

Edit: I forgot to mention, but the above guy pointed out the overclocked CPU in the Xbox One. That's definitely a potential problem, but I honestly believe the lack of internal power supply and excessive venting will equal that out. I don't know what Sony is doing to handle the heat the PS4 is generating, but they don't exactly have a flawless track-record tackling it with the launch models either. I would be amazed if MS dropped the ball again with hardware failure, they're the only console maker to lose billions on one shoddy console.

 

[BigDug13]

Sony is really the only company putting the power supply inside the machine, excluding the original Xbox. Nintendo has always had it external (or almost external, in the case of the N64). The 360's first few years had by far the worst heat issues of anything I can recall, but the PS2 models from the Japanese launch up until the 35001 series weren't so great themselves. This is definitely a case of "time will tell," I just think it might be a cause for concern in the near future.

Edit: I forgot to mention, but the above guy pointed out the overclocked CPU in the Xbox One. That's definitely a potential problem, but I honestly believe the lack of internal power supply and excessive venting will equal that out. I don't know what Sony is doing to handle the heat the PS4 is generating, but they don't exactly have a flawless track-record tackling it with the launch models either.

Other consoles have done external power supplies, sure, but nobody ever called it a "power brick" until the 360 because it was Fing huge. And I was really surprised to see an equal "brick" coming with XBO.

 

[Thrakier]

The next big bomba for me would be Destiny. I think that's going to be a make or break title for MS to achieve parity with.

There is no way achieving parity besides gimping the PS4 version heavily. Pls understand. They are people still hoping?

 

[Snubbers]

There are some very intelligent and knowledgable posters in b3d forums that keep low most of the time because they don't want to be dragged into system wars. Labeling b3d as Xbox HQ is the same as calling this forum SonyGAF. I'm sure that if these consoles are on the market and NDAs expire and the focus of the fans shifts towards other things (like games) then b3d will be the number one (freely accessible) place in the internet for technical discussions of the next-gen hardware.

yep, agree.. You need to know who to ignore over there, but when you get the real devs posting, you get some proper technical discussion going.

And OT, I was expecting 1080/900 or 900/720 kind of differences, or same trees, lower effects, but the gap is slightly larger then my expectations,

I think I am more disappointed that the next gen was not a solid 1080p 60 with high detail machine from the get go.

The thing is 99.9% of people seemed to agree the XB1 was less powerful, and it is demonstrating that, as everyone expected, so why are people saying we need a plate off crows? I be heard jack frags and DF statehood that the differences are small in terms of what you see when playing, and despite more aliasing, looking at BF4, I think both look great, despite the graphics whore in me ordering the PS4 version, I still think the PC Verdon is by far the cleanest.

 

[tensuke]

Really interesting to see this thread is still going. I figure disparity right now is due mostly to eSRAM and immature dev tools. It'll get better, but so will PS4 games, so I wonder how big the gap will settle at for most games.

Oh god... 150+ pages to sift through, a bit much for even me, heh.

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