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[Davidion]

And here I thought you were mocking him for being unable to comprehend why other's don't see the value in ridiculously priced games because of his avatar.

You know, that comes into play too, but that's more of a result of the production philosophy that I mentioned in the edit of my post. And that's not as problematic or illogical, because once you're locked into that philosophy, costs are going to skyrocket and after everything from licensing and marketing takes their share, it's often necessary for games to be priced that high. I would point my finger and laugh, but that's a real business constraint that devs and pubs have to deal with and more often not a frivolous measure.

 

[Raist]

What reason does the average game player have to hang on to a game like drake's fortune or any other big blockbuster games with relatively low replay value without an active online component, after they're done with it? Are they going to sit there and admire the polygons? Look at the untucked shirts?

Most of the time, people like playing games because it's finger twaddling fun, no matter how board members from a place like neogaf would like to elevate them to the realm of high art. And as opposed to the overly hyped up bullshit you get from around here, the ones that are most susceptible to this is the super big blockbuster games that live off of day one hype. All the polished graphics and polygons in the world ain't gonna make people want to play a game over again just because it looks so purdy.

I'm sorry, but since it's a great game, it has ton of replay value. I hate it when people compare replay value to new levels, DLC and the like. That's stupid. If it's good, you'll enjoy replaying it, that's all.
Maybe that's just me tho. I enjoy reading the LotR trilogy now and then, but it's the exact same book, with no added content. Or listening to a 20yo Led Zep album.
But maybe that was just a stealth troll.

 

[Pureauthor]

A used car has wear and tear on it and will continue degrading over time, regardless of maintenance (which will just make it happen slower). However, unless it's severely abused, a used game will play the same as a new game. There is no degradation of the experience because it is used. Unlike new/used cars, the game consumption experience is IDENTICAL for new and used. Of course, if it's scratched or cracked, that's a different story, but you're covered there, too.

Even if the games themselves don't degrade over time (they do, actually), the consoles used to play them will. Especially in more recent generations, where the consoles (even Nintendo's!) appear to be getting shoddier.

 

[dogmaan]

No. Look at what vireland said. Buying a used car is much more of a crapshoot in terms of quality than a new car. It's got mileage on it, degradation, less support and warranty coverage, wear and tear and damage. Games. Don't.

Yes they do err scratches, or damage to the original packaging

 

[Kai Dracon]

Everything else aside, I am leering of the DD future so long as pubs are wringing their hands and salivating at the prospect of never letting anywhere anywhere own anything for real and guys like King Kotick who believe they are the czars of the industry relish the notion of the customers serving them instead of the other way around.

Sometimes I think this industry does need a genuine crash to bring everyone, from publishers, to retailers, back down to Earth.

 

[jaundicejuice]

If publishers and developers want to get a profit from used games sales then retailers should be able to get refunds on the shipments of shit games they buy and return them to the publisher. It's only fair.

 

[davidjaffe]

I would be fine with game rentals if there were a waiting period of 1-3 months from when game hits retail to when it can be rented. As is, I can't stand them. But would be fine with them if we had the waiting period, like movies do.

 

[proposition]

Grass still green, water still wet, David Jaffe still kind of an asshole - more news at 11.

 

[Raist]

Ok, so now you're throwing in specific variables. A used car seller should only sell the car if he/she sees no profit on their venture. You have no idea what model of Honda I bought or what the previous owner bought the car for. Maybe it's a rare classic. Maybe they bought it at auction price and are turning a huge profit. What you're assuming is that nobody (or, specifically, private sellers) makes profit on used car sales and that makes it ok. Now tell me again why Honda shouldn't get a kickback on that sale but Sony/EA/Activision should.

And your examples make this totally relevant and a fair comparison to the used games market?

 

[davidjaffe]

If publishers and developers want to get a profit from used games sales then retailers should be able to get refunds on the shipments of shit games they buy and return them to the publisher. It's only fair.

Yep I am fine with this. And I do think we have a % set aside in our budgets for returns...so I DO think that practice is in effect at least to some extent.

 

[Opiate]

Of course that matters. A private seller (which is the most common way to buy a used car) bought a car, and sold it for less than what he had to pay. He didn't make any profit out of it. Unlike stores who sell you used games. As for dealerships, they don't have the same model, in the same condition, standing right by the used one. And the new model wasn't likely out a couple of weeks ago.

It's a whole picture thing. You cannot make comparisons because "it's a used market as well".

No two markets are going to be absolutely identical.

That's why people are giving so many examples. Let me continue: used jewelry. Used books. Used firearms. Used CDs. Used Cars. Used movies. Used houses. Used electronics (TVs, etc).

In all of these cases -- every single one -- the producer does not see a cut of the used sale. You are essentially arguing that video games are special, unlike any other market on earth. What specifically is so special about them?

 

[dogmaan]

I would be fine with game rentals if there were a waiting period of 1-3 months from when game hits retail to when it can be rented. As is, I can't stand them. But would be fine with them if we had the waiting period, like movies do.

Jaffe why can't the games industry/publishers compete with the big chains and used games sales via lowering the prices sooner after launch rather than having to wait a year for them to go platinum

Aka

1 month $5 drop in price

3 months $10 drop in price

surely this would slow used game sales, and at least the original developers and publishers would be getting the money

to simplify why doesn't the games industry compete on price as price 'fixing' is what leads to the used market

 

[davidjaffe]

Grass still green, water still wet, David Jaffe still kind of an asshole - more news at 11.

You know, I'm really not an asshole, not at all. I'm a pretty nice guy who tends to like people. Doesn't meant I don't stand up for myself. You should try it sometime. Feels good.

 

[davidjaffe]

Jaffe why can't the games industry/publishers compete with the big chains and used games sales via lowering the prices sooner after launch rather than having to wait a year for them to go platinum

Aka

1 month $5 drop in price

3 months $10 drop in price

surely this would slow used game sales, and at least the original developers and publishers would be getting the money

to simplify why doesn't the games industry compete on price

I don't know the answer to this. Someone mentioned Ubisoft does it. Is that actually Ubi doing it or is it the stores doing it to clear inventory? But sure, I think it's a good idea.

 

[Onemic]

I don't actually like gamestop and don't sell used games myself (I only buy games that I know I will like, and I like to revisit games). I also have a real problem with some of their business practices (pushing pre-orders of games that will be readily available anywhere on day 1 in order to get an interest free loan on a game, selling used games as new, pushing pre-order bonuses that they run out of when you go to pick a game up,etc).

But I don't have any problem with them setting up a used games market at all.

But all Jaffe is against is gamestop having a monopoly on the market and not giving devs/pubs a cut in the profits. He's not against the idea of the used games market in general. If that was indeed so I'd be calling him an asshole like everyone else in this thread is doing.:lol

 

[Azih]

Yes they do err scratches, or damage to the original packaging

Dude that's not comparable and you know it.

 

[Tellaerin]

Except you don't understand Jaffe's stance. He's not saying you as a consumer shouldn't be allowed to resell stuff on (despite his angry retorts), he's saying he wants a cut from the outlet making profit from his goods. Which is perfectly understandable when you look at GameStop's profits which are directly related to undercutting shipments of dev's new games. So devs are experiencing smaller initial shipments without reprints with GameStop aggressively marketing the "buy it used next week, trade in your own stuff!" and the dev completely left out in the cold. What other stance should he be taking?

I understand Jaffe's stance. I don't agree with it. Those don't remain 'his goods' by virtue of the fact that he was involved in developing them. He (or more specifically, the publisher) isn't entitled to a cut of any secondary transactions involving those products. And that's as it should be. In the past, some people here have gone as far as suggesting that the law should be changed to make sure that publishers get this cut on secondary transactions that they're supposedly 'entitled to' because the used game market 'is hurting them'. I have a serious problem with this attitude that the videogame industry is somehow entitled to special treatment that the auto industry, publishing industry, or any other industry that supports a secondhand market isn't.

If publishers work out some sort of arrangement with GS where the publisher gets a cut of the secondhand transactions in exchange for some benefit for GS (maybe getting new releases a week ahead of the competition?), that's fine. But trying to squeeze them for a cut because 'that's our money, we're entitled to it because we made those games' sets a dangerous precedent for all secondhand transactions, IMO.

 

[Gestahl]

Dude that's not comparable and you know it.

Yeah if a car is dinged up, it's still worth something.

 

[vireland]

Yes they do err scratches, or damage to the original packaging

Yes, but it doesn't change the game EXPERIENCE. All the levels are there, it PLAYS the same. And if you buy used and the cd is scratched so it won't play, you can exchange it for another one. Most scratches don't affect the gameplay (stuttering, freezing, etc) at ALL. Not the same for new/used cars. There is a degradation of the EXPERIENCE on new vs used cars, which is what makes the used cars less valuable (and for many, less desirable).

 

[Zzoram]

But all Jaffe is against is gamestop having a monopoly on the market and not giving devs/pubs a cut in the profits. He's not against the idea of the used games market in general.

They don't have a monopoly on the market.

In Canada:

Futureshop/Best Buy sell used games. Rogers Video sells used games. Blockbuster Video sells used games. Microplay sells used games.

All in addition to EB Games. There is plenty of used game sales competition.

 

[Mario]

David just put a video up on his Blog

http://criminalcrackdown.blogspot.com/

 

[Davidion]

I'm sorry, but since it's a great game, it has ton of replay value. I hate it when people compare replay value to new levels, DLC and the like. That's stupid. If it's good, you'll enjoy replaying it, that's all.
Maybe that's just me tho. I enjoy reading the LotR trilogy now and then, but it's the exact same book, with no added content. Or listening to a 20yo Led Zep album.
But maybe that was just a stealth troll.

Zep albums and LotR are considered masterpieces of their medium; and those mediums are appreciated for their depth, whether it be Plant's voice or the epicness of Mordor. Guess what, most people don't find the same depth in combat mechanics or pretty rendered graphics or the animation of an untucked shirt. More people in this world will get more enjoyment out of a game of tetris then they ever will out of a game like Uncharted or Galaxy; figure it out.

YOU think "X" blockbuster game is worth replaying. What the hell makes you think most people agree with you?

 

[RedNumberFive]

Awesome... another GAF thread where everyone defends game companies wanting to shit on consumer rights! :lol :lol :lol

I'm backing away in advance, as any attempt to use an aptly used analogy will be insufficient.

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

I would be fine with game rentals if there were a waiting period of 1-3 months from when game hits retail to when it can be rented. As is, I can't stand them. But would be fine with them if we had the waiting period, like movies do.

Movies haven't had that window on rentals since DVDs came around.

 

[Mutagenic]

And your examples make this totally relevant and a fair comparison to the used games market?

I get it. You set the games industry on some untouchable pedestal by which it isn't allowed to be handled the same as all other products. You've made your point clear.

 

[RazzleDazzleRB]

David just put a video up on his Blog

http://criminalcrackdown.blogspot.com/

Ok Jaffe, Fuck the used car analogy. What about a used art work analogy? Same shit. Your wrong.

 

[Cday]

It's all one big shit sandwich and everyone has to take a bite...except Gamestop.

 

[Jive Turkey]

You know, I'm really not an asshole, not at all. I'm a pretty nice guy who tends to like people...

...Until someone disagrees with you and then you tell them how awesome it was skullfucking their mother last night. Yeah you're not an asshole at all.

 

[davidjaffe]

Yes but the second part of my stance is that if Gamestop and others do not want to cut pubs/devs in (and they are NOT legally required to and this is fine) then gamers should not get pissy when game makers adjust to try to make the business models work for them (i.e. digital distribution where DD copies are priced for less, having parts of the game not unlock unless it's a new copy until 6 months after the game has shipped;etc)...I mean gamers can get pissy if they like but if Gamestop gets to play hardball, then we do as well...and so we should. As many of you like to point out- as if I am not aware- it's a capitalist society in which we live...evolve or die. Sounds good to me. All I was saying is, Gamestop and the like should play ball with us now and we all do well together versus forcing us to cut them out of the picture down the road....

David

 

[Brimstone]

WTF.

According to Jaffe logic, all used book stores should be giving a cut of their sales to publishers? A comic shop buys an old Batman comic book and turns around and sells it, they should give a cut to DC?

According to Jaffe logic, anytime an opened Magic:The Gathering Card like "Shivan Dragon" is sold in a comic book shop, Wizards of the Coast should get a cut of the sale?

 

[davidjaffe]

Movies haven't had that window on rentals since DVDs came around.

I don't understand what you just typed. Movies when they were on VHS would take 6-12 months to hit. Now on DVD it's 6 weeks to 3 months. It's still not on the same day or month as the theater. What is your point?

 

[Noshino]

Movies haven't had that window on rentals since DVDs came around.

But they already made some money at the box office

 

[davidjaffe]

...Until someone disagrees with you and then you tell them how awesome it was skullfucking their mother last night. Yeah you're not an asshole at all.

Yeah, your a prick. See that's the thing. If anyone cared (and I don't know why they would) look back at my history. Disagree all you want but be respectful. I am respectful at first as well. But when you respond all smarmy and like a prick (like you just did) fuck yeah I'm gonna respond in kind. Why would I not?

'Yeah, you're not an asshole at all'...please, you're a dick.

 

[Onemic]

They don't have a monopoly on the market.

In Canada:

Futureshop/Best Buy sell used games. Rogers Video sells used games. Blockbuster Video sells used games. Microplay sells used games.

All in addition to EB Games. There is plenty of used game sales competition.

True, but as a frequent futureshop/bestbuy shopper(and former employee) I have never seen them sell used games the way gamestop does. I've maybe seen them put in a few games in the cheap bargain bin a few times, but in general they don't go so crazy on the used games market the way gamestop does.

 

[Opiate]

Let me phrase this another way:

Okay, you're not completely convinced by the used car example. Fine. How about books? Are they "completely different" too? If that doesn't do it, how about movies (i.e. used DVDs etc, which even blockbuster sells)? How about firearms? How about houses? How about music? How about jewelery? How about TVs and other electronics? How about furniture? Most of these markets have stores that sell new ______ and used ______ simultaneously, too (e.g. books, furniture and cars).

All of these industries have their own little quirks, but they all have similarly designed used markets, i.e. the original product is not owned by the producer once he sells it, and thus the producer does not make money of iterative sales.

This is an honest question: what is it about video games that makes them special, and distinct from every other market in the US?

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

Yes but the second part of my stance is that if Gamestop and others do not want to cut pubs/devs in (and they are NOT legally required to and this is fine) then gamers should not get pissy when game makers adjust to try to make the business models work for them (i.e. digital distribution where DD copies are priced for less, having parts of the game not unlock unless it's a new copy until 6 months after the game has shipped;etc)...I mean gamers can get pissy if they like but if Gamestop gets to play hardball, then we do as well...and so we should. As many of you like to point out- as if I am not aware- it's a capitalist society in which we live...evolve or die. Sounds good to me. All I was saying is, Gamestop and the like should play ball with us now and we all do well together versus forcing us to cut them out of the picture down the road....

David

Okay, but see, your hardball is going to hit the customers as well as your intended target. And since we are the customers, we're perfectly within our rights to get pissy about that. Naturally, you guys can do whatever you feel is best, but when your response to your customers getting upset is "fuck you, don't let the door hit you on the way out", surely you have to see a problem?

 

[Gravijah]

I would be fine with game rentals if there were a waiting period of 1-3 months from when game hits retail to when it can be rented. As is, I can't stand them. But would be fine with them if we had the waiting period, like movies do.

If you're going to take game rentals (which I don't use) and used games away from me, at least use your power to make games go down in price over time! And not just with greatest hits blah. I rarely buy games brand new, but I love buying 2-3 older games ultra cheap (and usually used since prices don't like to go down) for the price of one brand new game.

 

[jaundicejuice]

It's all one big shit sandwich and everyone has to take a bite...except Gamestop.

What do you call purchasing the initial shipment of say Bionic Commando or any of the other many bombs this industry puts out?

 

[jedimike]

It sounds like there is a Win-Win alternative to be had. Maybe DD will put more pressure on publishers and retailers to come to that Win-Win. There's probably little that consumers or developers can do to influence retailers and publishers.

I still think asking Gamestop or whoever to cut you in on the action is wrong... but having a waiting period, to simulate the degradation, is reasonable. It's also reasonable to have excess product be reimbursable by the publishers.

If publishers/developers were smart, they could minimize consumers trading in games by announcing significant downloadable content. This worked for me with Mass Effect and GTAIV. In fact, I didn't even know that Mass Effect had content coming and the Gamestop employee asked me if I really wanted to trade it in because content would be coming in the next two months. I said no... I'll keep it to buy the downloadable content.

 

[Davidion]

I don't understand what you just typed. Movies when they were on VHS would take 6-12 months to hit. Now on DVD it's 6 weeks to 3 months. It's still not on the same day or month as the theater. What is your point?

Wrong, DVD release windows are constantly being moved closer to release/broadcast date by the studios, with same-day releases being actively considered. Movie studios are not hanging on to those release windows for their own benefit.

 

[Christine]

Movies haven't had that window on rentals since DVDs came around.

The window worked the other way around anyway, with rentals being available about 6 months before the movies were widely available for purchase.

EDIT: What, he means the window between the theatrical release and rental? That doesn't make any sense at all - releasing a game to retail is not analogous to releasing a movie to theaters. The only factor in common is first availability.

 

[davidjaffe]

WTF.

According to Jaffe logic, all used book stores should be giving a cut of their sales to publishers? A comic shop buys an old Batman comic book and turns around and sells it, they should give a cut to DC?

According to Jaffe logic, anytime an opened Magic:The Gathering Card like "Shivan Dragon" is sold in a comic book shop, Wizards of the Coast should get a cut of the sale?

According to Jaffe logic, you have not read my tweets or watched my video. Used books degrade in the value of the experience over time. A used game sold the next DAY that the new game hit the store does not.

 

[VegaShinra]

WTF.

According to Jaffe logic, all used book stores should be giving a cut of their sales to publishers? A comic shop buys an old Batman comic book and turns around and sells it, they should give a cut to DC?

According to Jaffe logic, anytime an opened Magic:The Gathering Card like "Shivan Dragon" is sold in a comic book shop, Wizards of the Coast should get a cut of the sale?

No, he isn't so stfu.

He's right. GS should work with publishers with the concept of used game sales. Give the publishers a little incentive not to go full DD in future by offering them a fraction of the used game sale.

 

[Jive Turkey]

Yeah, your a prick. See that's the thing. If anyone cared (and I don't know why they would) look back at my history. Disagree all you want but be respectful. I am respectful at first as well. But when you respond all smarmy and like a prick (like you just did) fuck yeah I'm gonna respond in kind. Why would I not?

'Yeah, you're not an asshole at all'...please, you're a dick.

Ladies and gentlemen of the jury: Exhibit A.

Too bad too because you always seem to be a pretty cool guy until you let your ego (and mouth) get in the way.

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

I don't understand what you just typed. Movies when they were on VHS would take 6-12 months to hit. Now on DVD it's 6 weeks to 3 months. It's still not on the same day or month as the theater. What is your point?

If you're talking about the theatre lead time, then you aren't talking about rental, which I assumed you were since you were replying to a post asking your opinion of rentals.

 

[davidjaffe]

But they already made some money at the box office

Yes, this is my point. Let the game do what it's gonna do for the first 1-3 months at retail, then let rental markets have it. Game makers get 2 release windows, gamers who want to pay more get the game sooner, and gamers on a budget still dig the games but they have to wait a bit longer (just like movie rentals). I see no issue with this.

 

[Raist]

I get it. You set the games industry on some untouchable pedestal by which it isn't allowed to be handled the same as all other products. You've made your point clear.

I clearly don't see how you can compare both markets, because both have specific issues and characteristics. And when people defend this point of view with a "but what if it is a rare car" argument, I don't see how this applies to the used games market, sorry. I'm not the one getting into extremely specific examples. I'm talking about a whole picture thing.

 

[Pimpbaa]

I will continue to sell my games and buy some used games for as long as they make short games with no replayability for 70 bucks (well until everything is DD only). And it's not me that's harming the industry by doing so, it's the developers/publishers trying to screw me over. If I know a game is going to stay in my game library, I gladly fork over the money for a new copy. Also, videogames are no different from any other product that can be sold used PERIOD.

 

[Kintaro]

If we made money off of actually making the game, we wouldn't need to milk it. Get it?

Bullshit. Like, bathing in it.

At this rate, gaming will go the way of music one day. It will be beaten to an inch of its life and it will squirm and squirm until it becomes a joke both financially and more importantly in terms of quality. I hope you guys like the britney spears and justin timberlakes of gaming, cause that's whats going to be left sooner or later.

Take a step back and read what you wrote. Gaming has always had middling games succeed greatly because of marketing. Gaming as always had more shitty games than good ones. Always have, always will.

If gaming will go the way of music, that's fine. Know why? Because DD and retail CO EXIST. That won't be good enough for you though because as long as retail exists, so too will used games. And we're back to the whining that's been happening since the NES. Sounds like the industry enjoys cutting off its nose to spite its face.

We got 3 options - Digital downloads, China and/or India, or bust/make games that end with z and follow fad trends (an already over-saturated market). Yes, china and india will open up for more pirating and more used game exploitation, but there are so many people there that the "small" new game market boost would actually be able to hold us up on its own. 1% of china is A LOT of people. THEN we wouldn't have to be concerned about what the used game market does.

Games have always followed trends. Always. How is this new or unique to the now? If things are so rosy in China, what's stopping the industry from expanding there as well? Besides that pesky Chinese Government? :lol

 

[Pureauthor]

Yes but the second part of my stance is that if Gamestop and others do not want to cut pubs/devs in (and they are NOT legally required to and this is fine) then gamers should not get pissy when game makers adjust to try to make the business models work for them (i.e. digital distribution where DD copies are priced for less, having parts of the game not unlock unless it's a new copy until 6 months after the game has shipped;etc)...I mean gamers can get pissy if they like but if Gamestop gets to play hardball, then we do as well...and so we should. As many of you like to point out- as if I am not aware- it's a capitalist society in which we live...evolve or die. Sounds good to me. All I was saying is, Gamestop and the like should play ball with us now and we all do well together versus forcing us to cut them out of the picture down the road....

David

Well, what Gamestop does about giving you cuts doesn't affect us directly. Screwing with game content/price, however, does. We, as consumers, are (or should be, anyway) unhappy about things that affect us negatively. Seems simple enough.