DragonKnight
Member
Of course everything isnt black and white. But there are other means to solve our problems without going the quick and dirty route.
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Elephant 'tramples to death suspected poacher'
- Thread starter ComputerMKII
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Of course everything isnt black and white. But there are other means to solve our problems without going the quick and dirty route.
Poaching will exist as long as there is a demand. There will be a demand as long as these animals are rare. These animals are rare because of the poaching.
or he's just an opportunist - which is probably just as likely.
BladeoftheImmortal
Member
It does if those people are willingly driving a species to extinction. Whalers deserve this too. Can't wait till we kill off all other species and then wonder why it happened.
yankeehater
Member
I dont see how rarity is a factor in this. If there were mllions of elephants then it would just be easier for them to get the ivory. Unless you think that flooding the market would some hom make it less desirable but I dont see how anyone could draw that conclusion. The people that want ivory are going to want it if there is a little bit of it or a lot of it. They need to get the countries where there is demand for it to crackdown on selling it. Make it a serious criminal offense and then the poaching will stop.
I wish. The demand will rise and the poaching methods become smarter and possibly more deadlier. See blood diamonds. :\
One way of seeing this to stop is have some sort of negative "health ordinance" on items with animal species that could lead to illnesses and the like. Sort of like "mad cow" PSA that makes people suddenly avoid burgers for a while lol.
SnakeswithLasers
Member
I don't mean to be a dick, but do you know how economics works?
No I wouldn't because I value a human's life much more than an animal's, shocking I know. And your point is absolutely absurd and unrelated. How does killing or rape benefit anyone, ever? That elephant could have provided meat and food for many families, maybe the bones would have provided he and his family with money to be able to live for another few months. My point is who the fuck knows? So crying tears of joy for a man none of us know who's now dead is fucked up. You know, a man who had memories, potentially loved, had family and kids. We don't fucking know but now he's dead so yaayyyy. Again i'm not condoning the mans actions or encouraging what he did, but it's fucked up to celebrate a mans death and pass judgement on someone you don't know.
Wuthering_Heights
Banned
/brofist
PoweredBySoy
Banned
Seriously. I don't think he got up from that.
If "only" it was the case. Sadly, it is not. Poachers do not do that. They sneak illegally into places where it is against the law to hunt down the already endangered animals, cut off the wanted parts (if that means leaving a half-killed, struggling rhino without a horn? So be it...), and then run away.
It is not hunting for food, the dead or dying animal is left there to rot, sometimes still being in agony for a long time.
Also, putting values on lives is basically the fucking root of evil, so....
Cute. Elephants obviously have less rights than a man does.
Yes, you pretty much are.
By saying "well I don't like what he did, but he may have had a good reason" is condoning. Also, stop with the hyperbole, tears of joy is you projecting.
Ivory is just teeth. There are plenty of ways to get teeth but these people want elephant tusks specifically. If there were millions of elephants hunting them wouldn't be illegal (actually it would be necessary as they have a low carrying capacity and in large numbers would devastate the environment). The price for Ivory also wouldn't be as high, and therefore it wouldn't be a sign of wealth and power to have elephant tusks. So there would be less money in it to kill elephants.
It is basic economics. They are protected because they are rare. they are rare because of a demand for their parts, their parts are more valuable because they are rare and protected, people will poach them because of the demand.
Ignis Fatuus
Banned
I'm very far from a tree hugger and I will usually say that humanity's interests should supersede those of other species. I support the right to hunt any animal as long as it is done in a sustainable fashion. However I absolutely draw the line when it comes to endangered species, because once something goes extinct the world will never get it back again. No future generations will ever be able to see it firsthand, all they'll get are videos and stories about how we fucked it up for them. You are stealing from all the humans who will come after you and to me that is a heinous crime.
Also these large and tusked animals in Africa bring in billions in tourism dollars every year. Take away Africa's fascinating wildlife and you'll remove one of the continent's most reliable sources of revenue. Sure these poachers are desperate, but even if you don't care about the elephants at all this is not a victimless crime. There's no shortage of reasons why this sort of human behavior should be condemned.
Good for the elephant.
Also these large and tusked animals in Africa bring in billions in tourism dollars every year. Take away Africa's fascinating wildlife and you'll remove one of the continent's most reliable sources of revenue. Sure these poachers are desperate, but even if you don't care about the elephants at all this is not a victimless crime. There's no shortage of reasons why this sort of human behavior should be condemned.
Good for the elephant.
Yea. Let's not tip-toe around the subject: he wasn't there to get meat to eat.
For all those suggesting this is ok based upon "humans > animals" logic, what do you suggest these poachers do when all the elephants are gone? If it's just a "job to feed their poor starving families", what do you suggest they do afterwards? If you have a legitimate answer, then that's what they should be doing in the first fucking place. Poaching is a short term solution. Not only are they fucking over their country(tourism), but they are killing off one of the most majestic creatures in nature.
What exactly makes a human who murders intelligent creatures "worth" more than the innocent things he murders?
Uhh they aren't killing the elephants for their meat and bones...not that it matters but lets at least stick to reality.
I suggest that society should take steps to prevent people going down this path in the first place. Just wishing these people were dead and celebrating their death isn't helping anything and that's the root of the problem I'm taking issue with people in this thread about.
Wuthering_Heights
Banned
You either die the hero, or you live long enough to trample the villain.
And become a hero.
Without dying.
And become a hero.
Without dying.
Ignis Fatuus
Banned
There will always be poachers as long as people are willing to pay obscene amounts of money for ivory. If you want to kill the trade, you have to cut off the demand. That means China. In the meantime all you can do is try to stop the poachers by force and hope that you'll save enough animals to keep the species alive.
If that's your main issue, there's nothing wrong with creating social stigma in poaching. If anything it creates a positive awareness for animals to be more revered.
This is the internet after all, you don't see ACTUAL confetti do you?
scar tissue
Banned
So? I still prefer the poacher being dead than the elephant.
Yeah. Elephant/Rhino poachers don't even use the meat. They take the horn/tusks and leave the rest to rot.
Wasteful and disgusting.
There's social stigma and awareness, and then there's reveling in a man's death. I'm interested in what drives someone to do these kinds of things and how society can take steps so people don't go down this path. Celebrating a man's death doesn't improve the human condition or help society get a clear understanding of nature and our environment, it doesn't help humans feel compassion or sympathy towards one another. These are things we need to work towards and just blindly passing judgement on someone and being happy their dead is sick and misguided and doesn't help anyone or anything.
Just curious but I'm guessing most of you are in favor of the death penalty correct?
Amazing, that led me to http://youtu.be/qlajUJ1ygdI
Now I am absolutely DEVASTATED. I mean.....jesus christ...=(
scar tissue
Banned
Huge difference between the state murdering someone in cold blood, or someone getting trampled on because he tried to kill an elephant.
So no, absolutely anti death penalty. But extremely pro celebrating circumstances where criminals and assholes get what they deserve.
Ignis Fatuus
Banned
It's really not complicated. It's not easy to get rich in Africa. A quick way to get rich is to poach ivory so that some rich Chinese asshole can fool himself into thinking his penis works better. It's high risk, high reward. Some people feel it's worth the risk and just don't give a shit about the elephants, the tourism economy, or future generations. These criminals are no more interesting than any other greedy fuck around the world.
We do not want to feel compassion or sympathy for poachers.
storafötter
Member
Well people don't really love elephants that much since they do enjoy seeing them in circus, zoos and the list goes on for other forms of entertainment that elephants are being exploited for.
I suppose I agree that western people have a tiny bit more respect for them than lets say animals they eat regularly. Some of it might have something to do with that elephants can be at risk of being endangered. People are fooling themselves if they try to thinkthat they love elephants due to their intelligence, because other highly intelligent animals are sure treated like shit.
Good on the elephant for trampling the person.
Yeah, I agree heavily with this sentiment. I think it's too easy to paint poachers as some evildoers or whatever, when in reality it's a much more complicated situation, these aren't 2 dimensional movie villains or anything. Sometimes they are desperate men with families looking to get out of the poverty cycle they live in. That doesn't excuse their actions in the least, but it doesn't mean it's right to reduce their motivations to some mustache-twirling malice. And in fact, it makes it more difficult to prevent such actions - the better we understand and appreciate the motivations of people who commit these crimes, the more we can do to prevent them.
Even the people who buy these horns and tusks (a much much more deplorable group, in my opinion) are products of complex motivations. Understanding and appreciating the motivations of those people would do more to prevent further tragedies, than simple demonization (as tempting as that is).
Starving in the developed world is not the same as starving in Africa - you really shouldn't compare the two.
The demand for poached goods is largely eastern remedies, if my memory serves me. It doesn't have to do with the rarity of said animal.
GungHo
Single-handedly caused Exxon-Mobil to sue FOX, start World War 3
More in favor of not fucking with elephants. If he wasn't there to fuck with them, he wouldn't have been stomped into paste. I don't celebrate the guy's death, but I sure as shit don't feel bad for him, nor do I feel bad for his friend who hopefully goes to prison for quite some time. They certainly weren't in the wrong place at the wrong time. I also don't feel bad for home invaders, bank robbers, rapists, drunk drivers, or other people who wish harm on other living beings and get greased/maimed in the process.
There's a difference between not having compassion for someone's fate and celebrating it. I kinda wish the various defense forces or other moral relativists would consider that before going down the path of trying to call others bloodthirsty.
You just don't fuck with these guys.
What the fuck? Gah, why mess with animal that could kill you at the drop of a hat. I'll never understand that kinda naivete, respect shit bigger than you.
Elephants are very intelligent. Intelligent enough to get PTSD and go on rampages aswell unfortunately. However the elephant in question was very justified in it's actions.
The rarity of the animal though is of paramount importance. If these remedies came from common and local animals then there wouldn't be a market for them. The fact that they are rare and exotic animals lends a degree of credibility to the claim of their miraculous healing (or dick hardening) abilities.
You wouldn't believe me if I said dandelions can cure cancer. However if I said there is a rare flower that only grows on one side of one mountain in the Himalayas that can cure cancer you will be more apt to believe it.
Well, that's not entirely true. A lot of non-rare plants and animals are used in eastern medicine - some with simple cures some with miraculous cures. I think even if there were millions and millions of tigers tomorrow, tiger scrotum would still be a great way to get wood, or whatever.
Why the original writers of the crazy-eastern-remedies book CHOSE tigers and elephants and all that for their medical remedies thousands of years ago, who knows - but now, even if there were suddenly millions of said animals I doubt it would change the demand for said drugs - heck it might even go up.
Consider that there are tiger farms in China, farms where tigers are cultivated for their parts.
Thanks, first time I've seen this. When you see them tossing lions around that weigh more, you still don't get an appreciation for their strength.You just don't fuck with these guys.
nelsonroyale
Member
Well, he was supposedly trying to kill the elephant. It defended itself. Nothing wrong with that.
I didnt know if I would be able to feed myself for more than a few days at time, I lived in my car ON SITE because I couldnt afford gas. I chose to earn money legally when the alternative would have been much easier and much quicker. Sorry if you dont feel my poverty level was severe enough to make a comparison.
Honestly you sound like someone thats never had to worry where your next meal was coming from.
Why does it matter if I am someone who has never had to worry about my next meal? (I have, but it wasn't super serious).
My point stands. In the poor parts of Africa you sometimes have to decide which kid you should let die because you can only afford to feed one of them. In north America, you always have options - go to the nearest food bank or shelter and you're okay. In africa, a bad harvest can mean that you die from starvation, not have to make embarrassing visits to charities.
It's dishonest to realistically compare the two situations, and you'll be better off admitting that.
So you are implying that because I could have slept in a homeless shelter and collected canned goods from the food bin that I dont really know if I would poach a fucking Elephant for food? I can plainly tell you I wouldnt based on being in desperate situations before, and I dont really care if you think they measure up lol.
Do you realize how ridiculous what you are saying is? Of course my situation isnt as dire as the poorest people in Africa (I never said or even suggested it was). The point is that I could have made much more money in no time and been out of that situation. Again, I chose what I thought to be the right thing to do to improve my situation and am proud of it.
There nothing 'dishonest' about my comparison. Its simply what I believe I would do based on trials and tribulations in my life.
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