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Epic knows PS4/NEXTXBOX specs - [Giving recommendations w/ commercial mindedness]

Honestly I would rather the consoles be $499.99...



I mean, most of us thought when we bought our 360 for $399.99 in 2005 that a new one would be coming out in 2010 or 2011 at the latest. Here we are in 2012 and the next xbox is nowhere to be seen.

If the 720 launches in fall 2013, it will most likely last even longer before the next generation, which means we will very likely be stuck with whatever graphical horsepower the 720 brings in 2013, until 2020-2023.

I mean really, instead of buying a second launch game or controller, why not pony up an extra 100 bucks for a device that is going to last 10+ years?

If there was a way to ensure the device would be supported the extra 3-5 years, then I'm all down with this kind of thinking. I'm not a fan of buying hardware. I'm all about the software.

But if the console is only going to be supported for a regular 5 year cycle, then give me a $300 "underpowered" machine.
 
Honestly I would rather the consoles be $499.99...



I mean, most of us thought when we bought our 360 for $399.99 in 2005 that a new one would be coming out in 2010 or 2011 at the latest. Here we are in 2012 and the next xbox is nowhere to be seen.

If the 720 launches in fall 2013, it will most likely last even longer before the next generation, which means we will very likely be stuck with whatever graphical horsepower the 720 brings in 2013, until 2020-2023.

I mean really, instead of buying a second launch game or controller, why not pony up an extra 100 bucks for a device that is going to last 10+ years?

Lets not be so shortsighted... Advancing of technology in video games is a great thing, lets not stagnate the progress further....

I wouldn't for the reason I mentioned on the first page.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=37958469&postcount=83
 
Honestly I would rather the consoles be $499.99...

I mean really, instead of buying a second launch game or controller, why not pony up an extra 100 bucks for a device that is going to last 10+ years?

Lets not be so shortsighted... Advancing of technology in video games is a great thing, lets not stagnate the progress further....

The economic realities of 2012 are far different than 2005.

Consumers have less money to spend and expect more bang for each dollar spent. On the manufacturer end, neither Microsoft nor Sony are in positions to take a bath and sell systems at a significant loss at launch.

I will be shocked if new systems cost more than $399 at launch.
 

Burai

shitonmychest57
Honestly I would rather the consoles be $499.99...



I mean, most of us thought when we bought our 360 for $399.99 in 2005 that a new one would be coming out in 2010 or 2011 at the latest. Here we are in 2012 and the next xbox is nowhere to be seen.

If the 720 launches in fall 2013, it will most likely last even longer before the next generation, which means we will very likely be stuck with whatever graphical horsepower the 720 brings in 2013, until 2020-2023.

I mean really, instead of buying a second launch game or controller, why not pony up an extra 100 bucks for a device that is going to last 10+ years?

Lets not be so shortsighted... Advancing of technology in video games is a great thing, lets not stagnate the progress further....

But there's absolutely no guarantee that the platform will live longer just because it has better hardware. Commercial viability and power are not related.

Similarly we only need to look at PS3, which was a complicated and expensive hardware solution which is basically on-par with the cheaper, simpler Xbox 360, to show that extra hardware expense doesn't necessarily mean anything in real terms.

Even if you can guarantee better hardware, there's nothing stopping developers from developing for the lesser platform and porting up, giving consumers little incentive to pay extra for yours.

Plus if your competitors are on a five year cycle and launch new hardware midway through your cycle, they'll have extra power and the excitement that comes with a new console whilst you're still trying to sell the same-old.
 

theBishop

Banned
That's what they said about the PS3.


and

taaTe.gif


came the five hundred ninety nine us dollahs bomb

whodat?
 
Just sell me superior, high spec technology at a low price fitting a 1995 market place. And it better be innovative too. And free online.

I know I don't ask for much, but you owe me as a gamer.
 
Wii shone bright and then imploded. MS/Sony will want long generations which you need longevity in the hardware and good 3rd party support for

Wii imploded because Nintendo abandoned it to get a head start with the Wii U. This isn't really a secret. There is a reason why after New Super Mario Bros. nothing of interest came out until Zelda.

and I wish we wouldn't use single examples to predict anything in the console space.

Yes, just one of the most successful and most profitable gaming systems of all time and by far this gens frontrunner. Saying the Wii wasn't a game changer is like saying the iPhone isn't. Its ridiculous. Microsoft already flirted with it with Kinect and it had stunning success. But once again I wouldn't be surprised that Microsoft is now slowly drifting away from Kinect and going to their next platform to not fall behind Nintendo.
 

davepoobond

you can't put a price on sparks
GOD I hope it's not the same shit like this gen where both PS4 and 720 are basically on parity with nothing really different to give a shit about. One of the other has to have something more to make things interesting.

shouldnt you give a shit about the services and the games provided by the owners of the console?

i would think that that is the main stress point in a decision either way.
 
dear Sony and Microsoft.

We recently looked at your console specifications and noticed that your performance output is less then our reseach accounted for and we feel our engine will suffer finacially if you do not bolster your current hardware. Please consider making your console more powerful, otherwise we'll need to re-invest our own money in developing new tools. So please, spend your money so we can make more money.

epic.
Thats what it sounds like to me at least.
 
Interestingly, if you have enough power you can also decrease the amount of money used to create same quality game..

This isn't true as of yet. It's definitely what Epic is banking on, but it currently holds no weight. Until you no longer have to prebake your lighting the development pipelines won't change. You'll just be adding more work to it.

Part of me really hopes UE4 takes off. If only in one arena. It's lighting tech. That is the only cost saving measure UE4 seems to add. More powerful tech doesn't change anything else. But that alone could be huge.
 

pottuvoi

Banned
This isn't true as of yet. It's definitely what Epic is banking on, but it currently holds no weight. Until you no longer have to prebake your lighting the development pipelines won't change. You'll just be adding more work to it.

Part of me really hopes UE4 takes off. If only in one arena. It's lighting tech. That is the only cost saving measure UE4 seems to add. More powerful tech doesn't change anything else. But that alone could be huge.
I should have been more clear, thanks for clearing it up. :)

Yes, if the lighting tech is really interactive without any precalculation, it will be huge step in right direction.
Especially with a quality they seem to be getting out of it.
 
I should have been more clear, thanks for clearing it up. :)

Yes, if the lighting tech is really interactive without any precalculation, it will be huge step in right direction.
Especially with a quality they seem to be getting out of it.

I can only imagine how pissed devs are going to be if it isn't perfect.
 

bomma_man

Member
It is true, of course, that better technology doesn't necessarily mean bigger budgets, but the fact of the matter is that the big developers are pushing everything as far towards Hollywood style production values as they can, and high specs just increase the bar. It really is unsustainable. The console market isn't growing at the same rate that budgets are. I mean PS360 is still lower than PS2's LTD isn't it? And GTA: SA's budget is probably pittance compared to the average these days.
 
It is true, of course, that better technology doesn't necessarily mean bigger budgets, but the fact of the matter is that the big developers are pushing everything as far towards Hollywood style production values as they can, and high specs just increase the bar. It really is unsustainable. The console market isn't growing at the same rate that budgets are. I mean PS360 is still lower than PS2's LTD isn't it? And GTA: SA's budget is probably pittance compared to the average these days.
PS360 is closing in on the PS2 total as of 2006. They are still about 25-30 million units behind its total as of today.
Indeed..
They have been developing the tech for years now, so I would guess it to be quite good.
Until I see it in action I don't believe a word of it. I'm still skeptical that they have true Global Illumination running in realtime on the 680.
 

bomma_man

Member
PS360 is closing in on the PS2 total as of 2006. They are still about 25-30 million units behind its total as of today.

So my point stands. If the console market fails to grow next gen, but budgets continue to, what's going to happen? Games are already overpriced as they are.
 

SkylineRKR

Member
I don't want the stuff Epic wants.

I want an affordable gen and relatively short development times, and not even more studios that topple because of increasing costs and risks. I think that the rate of output on the HD consoles is up to snuff now. I would settle with an upgrade of the graphics we have now, ie. current-gen graphics possible in 1080p, 60fps and a load of AA. Battlefield with 64 players. Pretty much current high-end PC kind of power.
 
So my point stands. If the console market fails to grow next gen, but budgets continue to, what's going to happen? Games are already overpriced as they are.

I'm kind of at a crossroads with this.

If their lighting tech really does take out a good chunk of work in baking lightmaps, then it's almost an imperative that MS and Sony shoot for the moon. Just so the dev pipeline can change in that one area.

At the other end I don't think this kind of increase is feasible every generation. We've got maybe two generations before the differences between them become completely negligible.
 

AzaK

Member
Just sell me superior, high spec technology at a low price fitting a 1995 market place. And it better be innovative too. And free online.

I know I don't ask for much, but you owe me as a gamer.

See Chuck Norris doesn't wait for next-gen, he punches it into existence.
 

Blimblim

The Inside Track
This isn't true as of yet. It's definitely what Epic is banking on, but it currently holds no weight. Until you no longer have to prebake your lighting the development pipelines won't change. You'll just be adding more work to it.

Part of me really hopes UE4 takes off. If only in one arena. It's lighting tech. That is the only cost saving measure UE4 seems to add. More powerful tech doesn't change anything else. But that alone could be huge.

Tessellation is also going to be a big help for modelers. Not having to produce various LOD levels of all the assets is a huge time saver.
 

Vagabundo

Member
I'll believe it when I see it. With every generation the increased power of the consoles has spawned a rat race with increasing AAA budgets.

We'll see I suppose.
 
Tessellation is also going to be a big help for modelers. Not having to produce various LOD levels of all the assets is a huge time saver.

To effectively use Tessellation and not get that really fucked up "Too smooth" look you're still going to have to model for the separate levels of tessellation. Very high poly generally for close-up shots, the midrange, and low for the far off camera scenes.

edit: I should say this might have changed. I haven't read enough on modern Tessellation techniques to know if they use normals, height and depth maps to approximate where polies are needed. I might just be thinking of standard LoD techniques.
 
And at the same time, it was only during the advent of the PS3/360 era where being a graphics whore became something to be lauded instead of something to be mocked. So I don't see how that's a relevant issue.
Late reaction but the way some people shift the definition of a graphics whore from 'someone who derives pleasure from graphics only' to 'people wishing for a next-gen console graphics leap conform previous console hardware transitions' is a fine example of said lobbying.
 
M°°nblade;38011490 said:
Late reaction but the way some people shift the definition of a graphics whore from 'someone who derives pleasure from graphics only' to 'people wishing for a next-gen console graphics leap conform previous console hardware transitions' is a fine example of said lobbying.
The issue comes in what people expect of a next-generational leap.

As time goes on this will be harder and harder to pin down. Next-gen asset quality will increase, but not by the same standards as they did the generation before. Which makes sense in a roundabout way. Poly counts themselves will increase by a very small metric. Instead of a model comprised of 40,000 polygons (right around Drakes cutscene model) to at best of 100,000 polies.

Environments will likely be busier. More diversified props, higher resolution textures. It really does seem that the biggest differences will come in the way of lighting and particles.
 

Bert

Member
For me it is more the fact that when these consoles hit they have to be good for 6 - 10 years. They can't be obsolete after 12 months. If EPIC are turning out UnrealEngine4 quality in 2012 what is 2022 going to look like ?

MS and SONY have to put things in place now to stop them needing a PS5 in 2015.

If MS hadn't listened to EPIC when the 360 was launched think of the dire situation they would have been in against the PS3 in the last 2-3 years.

That's assuming MS and Sony want a 6-10 year cycle and don't want to move to a 2-3 year subscription based model.
 

Eusis

Member
That's assuming MS and Sony want a 6-10 year cycle and don't want to move to a 2-3 year subscription based model.
I think stability has been one of the strengths of consoles versus computers. If they go that path I don't know if it'll be very practical in the long run, not unless they ensure compatibility like iOS... and even then, a LOT of iOS games are low end whereas console can be trusted to strained more.

Though, that could always have the paradoxical effect of making cheaper, lower budget games viable again.
 
The economic realities of 2012 are far different than 2005.

Consumers have less money to spend and expect more bang for each dollar spent. On the manufacturer end, neither Microsoft nor Sony are in positions to take a bath and sell systems at a significant loss at launch.

I will be shocked if new systems cost more than $399 at launch.

The tech of 2013/2014 is also strongly different than the tech of 2005. If they were able to deliver in the 2005 for 299/399$ a triple core processor and an unified sharer GPU, which now are the norm but back then were a novelty, then I don't see why they can't deliver in the 2013/2014 for 399$ a console with a next generation GPU and CPU. After the introduction of the Unified Shader architecture in 2005 with the xbox360, there were no new revolutionary architectures introducted; we only saw an increase in GPU power, and nothing that was comparable to the introduction of the Unified Sharer architecture. In my opinion, what Epic is aking to MS and Sony is to invest more money for the development for a real next gen architecture, which would feature a real leap from the previous gen HW, just like the R500 was from the R420.
 

Minion101

Banned
Devs are already having trouble with the high budgets of this generation. We don't need studios going out of business trying to make avatar. Jesus. Sony and MS should just focus on making the consoles easy to develop for.
 
The issue comes in what people expect of a next-generational leap.

As time goes on this will be harder and harder to pin down. Next-gen asset quality will increase, but not by the same standards as they did the generation before. Which makes sense in a roundabout way. Poly counts themselves will increase by a very small metric. Instead of a model comprised of 40,000 polygons (right around Drakes cutscene model) to at best of 100,000 polies.

Environments will likely be busier. More diversified props, higher resolution textures. It really does seem that the biggest differences will come in the way of lighting and particles.
Yes, on the software side diminishing returns will be inevitable as we come closer and closer to true fotorealistic graphics.
This is also part of the reason why this generation is in it's seventh year without a PS4 and Xbox3 announcement.

On the hardware side however, it's hilarious how some gamers feel hardware manufacturers should artificially go for a worse setup than what's financially avialable for them and handicap the capacities of their machines in order to protect publishers and developers from themselves because they might jump too high and go bankrupt.

Besides the fact that gamers or hardware manufacturers don't have the same insight in game development like developers and publishers do and thus shouldn't dictate how they should do their work, this would only enforce the diminishing returns and handicap their own gaming experience.
 
Devs are already having trouble with the high budgets of this generation. We don't need studios going out of business trying to make avatar. Jesus. Sony and MS should just focus on making the consoles easy to develop for.

More powerful HW can also be easier to develop for, if better tools are provided.
 

SapientWolf

Trucker Sexologist
Devs are already having trouble with the high budgets of this generation. We don't need studios going out of business trying to make avatar. Jesus. Sony and MS should just focus on making the consoles easy to develop for.
That's what middleware companies and game engine designers are focused on. MS and Sony just need to give them what they need to do their jobs.
 

Minion101

Banned
This is the rub, and hopefully where Epic and Crytek excel.

Unless kept in check budgets could really and truly inflate out of control. Some believe they already have. Exceeding the growth of the industry.
I think it's the reason Japan has fallen from grace. Budges are already to high for them.
 
Devs are already having trouble with the high budgets of this generation. We don't need studios going out of business trying to make avatar. Jesus. Sony and MS should just focus on making the consoles easy to develop for.

Not sure but most studios i heard going down under are mismanaged.
So budget will grow because publishers see opportunity for ROI in a studio.
If that said studio is mismanaged and don't reach the milestones yeah i think a publisher wont pay up your salary.

Kinda like Obsidian what fucking managers/boss accepts a bonus deal for metacritic he should have opted for profit or sales deal for a bonus metacritic really if you piss off some press before release bye bye bonus but still sell a shit and make a profit. And if you can't deal with the AAA high budget titles go for psn or xbla project enough money can be made there if say you have 4 project in the run and 2 of the 4 can carry the budget of the 4 projects. And can keep things fresh for your engineers and designers.
 

neorej

ERMYGERD!
Devs are already having trouble with the high budgets of this generation. We don't need studios going out of business trying to make avatar. Jesus. Sony and MS should just focus on making the consoles easy to develop for.

CliffyB wants a real-time Avatar, so he will get his real-time Avatar!
 

pottuvoi

Banned
To effectively use Tessellation and not get that really fucked up "Too smooth" look you're still going to have to model for the separate levels of tessellation. Very high poly generally for close-up shots, the midrange, and low for the far off camera scenes.

edit: I should say this might have changed. I haven't read enough on modern Tessellation techniques to know if they use normals, height and depth maps to approximate where polies are needed. I might just be thinking of standard LoD techniques.
Currently you pretty much can use what ever surface description model you want(IE.nurbs, and catmull-clark).
Displacement is in most cases done with heightmap although vector displacement map is gaining traction for obvious reasons. (some interesting tests have been done with geometry maps (old paper) etc.)
 
bomma_man said:
The console market isn't growing at the same rate that budgets are. I mean PS360 is still lower than PS2's LTD isn't it?
PS360 is still lower than where PS2 is now, but it's not behind where PS2 was at ~6 years. PS360Wii is also way ahead of PS2GCNXbox LTD and still running up the lead.
 

McHuj

Member
I will be shocked if new systems cost more than $399 at launch.

I fear we're at really interesting point. I think after MS's trial run of the $99 SKU with contract, they'll go with that model for next gen.

Starting in fall of 2013:
the New Xbox: $499 or $249 with a 2 year Live service contract
the 360: $149 or $0 with a contract.

but I'm hoping what bgassassin said about a shorter next gen comes to pass. I like upgrading my hardware every 4-5 years.
 
Most people on this board pay for LIVE that have a 360. I couldn't imagine the 360 without LIVE, it would be a PS3 without blu-ray. What is wrong with that model if you get more hardware in the box and they don't loose their ass to provide it?
 

BigTnaples

Todd Howard's Secret GAF Account
Devs are already having trouble with the high budgets of this generation. We don't need studios going out of business trying to make avatar. Jesus. Sony and MS should just focus on making the consoles easy to develop for.


Most of the benefits of next gen wont cause devs costs to go up.


Early on this gen, devs struggled to find a workflow to create HD assets at to develop for new advanced hardware. Even Epic themselves had to outsource character model creation of the stranded for Gears 1.


That was then. Now Developers have much better tools for the engines they use and workflows are quick. Assets for current gen games are created at much higher resolution than the consoles can handle, and then dumbed down..

Look at Gears Models.


They are already created in super high fidelity, then dumbed down for the games cut scenes, then dumbed down a bit further for actual gameplay.

A theoretical next gen Gears launch game could use pretty much the same quality models they created for Gears 3, maybe slightly more detailed.

The improvements are going to come from engine effects, new lighting, subsurface scattering, Bokeh Depth of Field, Real Time Reflections, Volumetric Effects, Enhanced Physics, Tessellation, Hit Detection, and the ability to throw a ton more NPC's at once into the fray, on to larger scale maps. Not to mention if devs choose to they can push 1080p with AA and AF and have amazing IQ on a game, especially if the graphics aren't "AAA"


A smaller developer, or an indy dev will still benefit from better hardware.

Look at Sins of a Solar Empire, the games graphics weren't exactly mind melting, especially at launch, but the game still benefits greatly from more powerful hardware because it allows the player to play larger scale games. That does not increase dev costs, but it does allow the developer to see their vision come to fruition.

Look at all the compromises we make for today's games and the vision of what they should be. How many vistas today are ruined by the fact that the skybox is low resolution in order to save the framerate? That is a consistent problem this gen.

Look at Mass Effect 3 having to take holstering away because they didn't have enough Ram left to squeeze.

Or look at Battlefield 3 who's maps had to be reduced in size and who's player count went from 64 to 24 on consoles.

Or Skyrim who still is missing levitation spells because cities are separate cells. And in which you can't see out or into a window as a thief to spy on NPCs because the hardware is inadequate.

Or LittleBigPlanet where a player is limited in his creations by the consoles small amount of memory.

Or any number of games where an epic battle between nations or worlds is shown as a 6 on 6 NPC battle because the hardware can't handle larger scale conflicts.

I could go on for HOURS about how the current consoles limit developers of all sizes, and hamper their ability to deliver their vision to the world. Next gen hardware will give developers extra headroom to do some more of the things they want. Period.
 
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