and now they have 4 sc2 streams, so even if there is adds on one.. you can just flick over.
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eSports and the Fighting Game Community
- Thread starter Fersis
- Start date
and now they have 4 sc2 streams, so even if there is adds on one.. you can just flick over.
They could get a FG division on the Namco games (Tekken/SC) and MK. All three of those games have communities that don't need Capcom or EVO at all to succeed. The problem with Tekken is that the format they used for Tekken at least year's MLG was crooked. They ran an event locally, and lots of the local top players were complaining hard about the format, for very legitimate reasons.
Tekken sold well even during the Capcom Dark Ages. SC4 sold really well despite not getting any help from SF4. MK outsold SF4. Those games have proven they can survive outside of the mainstream FGC.
Smash might work as well, but they're as set in their ways as the Capcom community, which was a big reason why Smash at EVO was such a disaster.
I have mad respect for Ultradavid, but I really feel like Capcom's position in the US market is bad for the US community as it makes the community too dependent on Capcom releasing quality games, which they don't always accomplish. Is it profitable?
The real question is whether it would be profitable for MLG to take the time and effort requried to wean the other communities away from EVO. (I don't think the other majors would be a problem, just EVO)
People just don't play those games anymore. Even MK seems to be dying down despite all the momentum it had at release. If they don't use the Capcom games then there would be a huge divide in the community... obviously the pro players would either split time or fully commit to whichever game had the most prize support.
Tekken probably sold well because it was during the FG dark ages. Now it's just another fighter with a mid range community. It doesn't matter which games outsell SF4 if the players have no interest in the competitive side.
I really don't think the other communities are worth the effort if the stream numbers are any indication of their care level.
KidA Seven
Member
How was it crooked? As far as I know, they used 3/5 series from start to finish. They also like to use a point system so the players can continue to want to make it out to their events. Players get rewarded with points for attending and placing high at every event similar to evo. Although, they do in fact differ because the top 16 "seeds" do not have to go through the open bracket after the 1st event. They do this so the players at the top are consistent and so they can market them.
I could understand why people don't like that. In fact, if they were to run it and we wanted to do away with that format I'm sure they would listen. Starcraft has complained about the format, and they're reassessing it for next season.
Nothing crooked about that.
@Alstein
Re-edit: I think that only happened at Smash between Mew2King and I forgot the other player. Or maybe you're not talking about that. I'm still not following you. Win streaks? That's how every tournament goes when it's double elimination. You win, you go all the way to grand finals. You lose, you get a second chance in the losers bracket. People throwing matches goes against their benefit, unless you're in the grand finals where you would want to split the pot. Which rarely happens, but is a minor side effect of double elimination tournaments. Correct me if I'm wrong. I'm not entirely following you.
MLG also does not want to kill grass root events. They have stated multiple times if they get to run SF4 or marvel, they would work with the fgc to ensure their events do not fall in the same date as the fgc's events. Also, they prefer the grass root events to thrive because it means the community is self sustaining. When a community is self sustaining people don't lose interest (there are only 6 mlg events a year at most, and most likely will only be 4 next year which is a little amount to keep ppl interested) because there is more content to talk about, build drama leading up to events, etc... This is the reason why Halo is dying. The Halo community has relied on MLG for everything. Content, tournaments, forums, etc... You want to know what people on the mlg forums (which is the halo community) look forward to the most? Team changes, because of the drama. It's very easy to see why the passion for it has died. Of course there are multiple other reasons as well, but the most important reason is quality content. MLG at first didn't like competing leagues because they needed to establish themselves in order to stay afloat. They gave contracts to Halo players which was the cash cow at the time. Now that they have established themselves, they have learned that self sustaining communities for games are the best games to run.
No reason to think we, the fgc would die because of their involvement. If anyone is to blame for the fgc dying in the future, it's on us and or the game developers. We can still run tournaments, run our streams, and get hype at events. We are not limited to MLG. If players only choose to go to MLG events, blame them because they could be making the most money if they attended all events. Not to mention, if they make money from MLG, what's stopping them from using that money to attend more events?
They were basing qualification on win-streaks, so some folks were cherry-picking opponents and throwing games to help each other out. Led to some goofy results.
I think the WSOP approach would work better for fighters, and WSOP is more successful then MLG , though the whole FullTilt Scandal is really hurting them right now.
As for Tekken 6, what hurt that game saleswise was the poor netcode at launch. Many folks bought it at a discount after the online patch. The game's community is not small, it did alright at EVO despite being an old game by that point. Tag 2 will bring players back. MK- a little iffy, but if NRS continued to support it, it would continue to do well, and their patch philosophy is closer to PC games then the FGC's philosophy.
The EVO staff tried a pro league-type deal a few years back called APEX, which was a pretty big failure.
Was it something they owned and ran, or an outsider league?
ihearthawthats
Banned
the guy with the deep voice sounds like a douche. some of his points are valid, like yes tom and ultradavid could've wrote articles focusing on the positive instead. but hello, he was being pretty negative himself. 2 wrongs don't make a right. why should tom and david be the ones to make the 1st step when hes not willing to make that step himself?
though personally, i don't feel those articles are 'wrongs' in the first place. they were merely trying to provide some insight on some of their and the community's negative feelings, not be negative themselves. are we expected to ignore these feelings? sure it's easy for something like the mlg guys to do, they have very little to lose. the fgc on the otherhand, has a lot more to lose potentially.
i don't particularly think the articles were trying to say that fgs won't work in mlg, or that they don't even want them to work. if thats how he read the articles, then i think that only strengthens ultradavid's point that they are indeed quite different people coming from different scenes.
though personally, i don't feel those articles are 'wrongs' in the first place. they were merely trying to provide some insight on some of their and the community's negative feelings, not be negative themselves. are we expected to ignore these feelings? sure it's easy for something like the mlg guys to do, they have very little to lose. the fgc on the otherhand, has a lot more to lose potentially.
i don't particularly think the articles were trying to say that fgs won't work in mlg, or that they don't even want them to work. if thats how he read the articles, then i think that only strengthens ultradavid's point that they are indeed quite different people coming from different scenes.
Interficium
Banned
What bothers me most about MLG, IPL, and all the esports dudes trying to "call out" the FGC is two-fold.
When asked why the FGC will benefit by "partnering" (make no mistake, the MLG/IPL would pretty much require to take over the tournament circuit) with esports companies...
Their answer is always simply "money."
Look at that LordJerith dude from the vvv podcast, when he makes a list of benefits, his first TWO are money and #3 in his mind is "grow the community." Fuck you.
Secondly, and I talked about this in an earlier post, but the amazing levels of arrogance of the esports guys is fucking dumbfounding. These are dudes who see dollar signs and are asking to take a SIGNIFICANT role in steering the FGC, a community that predates theirs by MANY years, and how do they try to make inroads with us, after fucking up spectacularly in the past?
By saying shit like "this is how it works in the ADULT BUSINESS WORLD" and "are you guys happy with your little tournaments?" Basically belittling everything the FGC has built up throughout the years. Fuck you x2.
When asked why the FGC will benefit by "partnering" (make no mistake, the MLG/IPL would pretty much require to take over the tournament circuit) with esports companies...
Their answer is always simply "money."
Look at that LordJerith dude from the vvv podcast, when he makes a list of benefits, his first TWO are money and #3 in his mind is "grow the community." Fuck you.
Secondly, and I talked about this in an earlier post, but the amazing levels of arrogance of the esports guys is fucking dumbfounding. These are dudes who see dollar signs and are asking to take a SIGNIFICANT role in steering the FGC, a community that predates theirs by MANY years, and how do they try to make inroads with us, after fucking up spectacularly in the past?
By saying shit like "this is how it works in the ADULT BUSINESS WORLD" and "are you guys happy with your little tournaments?" Basically belittling everything the FGC has built up throughout the years. Fuck you x2.
Alpha Zealot is totally right.
/nobias
But seriously, watch this video of Melee from MLG. Just the first minute, even. Do you hear the hype? Watching sets of Melee from the MLG days doesn't look all that different from the streams we get today for the FGC... because it isn't. The Halo 2 community used to come and check out what Melee was all about because it was so fucking hype. It was touched upon in the VVV podcast: the FGC is scared of MLG and the other big leagues for some reason.
It seems like the perception is, if Street Fighter is taken onto MLG, the following will happen:
1. NO MORE EVO
2. NO MORE SEASONS BEATINGS OR FINAL ROUND
3. NO MORE YELLING OR GETTING HYPE
4. Important members of the community (Ultra David, James Chen, Sp00ky, TO's) will be banned from MLG.
And if you don't comply with these rules, your pathetic little community will die.
It simply isn't true. The FGC was alive and kicking during the aptly named "Dead Era" of fighting games from 2001-2008. There was support from fuck all, and the community made it work. So, somehow... a multimillion dollar company stepping in to help would kill the scene? Really? Someone explain to me how that works.
MLG would schedule their tournaments so that they don't coincide with the major FGC tournaments. Wanna know why? Because the FGC is fucking close, and everyone knows it. Especially MLG. They know the FGC will give them the finger if they hold an MLG event on, say, the same day as Socal Regionals. So it would be in their best interest to hold their MLG events on appropriate weekends. And from what I've heard (correct me if I'm wrong), Sundance is totally open to cooperating with TO's and making sure nothing is conflicting schedule wise.
Now... lets say I'm totally wrong. Lets say Sundance is Emperor Palpatine is disguise, and wants Evo, Seasons Beatings and all the non-MLG fighting game tournaments dead. You know what that means? "Fuck you MLG, we're going to stop supporting you now. We'll be fine without you. Bye bye." If the Melee scene is strong enough to leave MLG and continue to strive, and if the FGC is strong enough to live without a single fighting game over the span of 7 years... I think they'll be fine if MLG tries, in any way, to screw them.
/nobias
But seriously, watch this video of Melee from MLG. Just the first minute, even. Do you hear the hype? Watching sets of Melee from the MLG days doesn't look all that different from the streams we get today for the FGC... because it isn't. The Halo 2 community used to come and check out what Melee was all about because it was so fucking hype. It was touched upon in the VVV podcast: the FGC is scared of MLG and the other big leagues for some reason.
It seems like the perception is, if Street Fighter is taken onto MLG, the following will happen:
1. NO MORE EVO
2. NO MORE SEASONS BEATINGS OR FINAL ROUND
3. NO MORE YELLING OR GETTING HYPE
4. Important members of the community (Ultra David, James Chen, Sp00ky, TO's) will be banned from MLG.
And if you don't comply with these rules, your pathetic little community will die.
It simply isn't true. The FGC was alive and kicking during the aptly named "Dead Era" of fighting games from 2001-2008. There was support from fuck all, and the community made it work. So, somehow... a multimillion dollar company stepping in to help would kill the scene? Really? Someone explain to me how that works.
MLG would schedule their tournaments so that they don't coincide with the major FGC tournaments. Wanna know why? Because the FGC is fucking close, and everyone knows it. Especially MLG. They know the FGC will give them the finger if they hold an MLG event on, say, the same day as Socal Regionals. So it would be in their best interest to hold their MLG events on appropriate weekends. And from what I've heard (correct me if I'm wrong), Sundance is totally open to cooperating with TO's and making sure nothing is conflicting schedule wise.
Now... lets say I'm totally wrong. Lets say Sundance is Emperor Palpatine is disguise, and wants Evo, Seasons Beatings and all the non-MLG fighting game tournaments dead. You know what that means? "Fuck you MLG, we're going to stop supporting you now. We'll be fine without you. Bye bye." If the Melee scene is strong enough to leave MLG and continue to strive, and if the FGC is strong enough to live without a single fighting game over the span of 7 years... I think they'll be fine if MLG tries, in any way, to screw them.
How is UltraDavid the gatekeeper to anything? He's a dude with a microphone who had an opinion (one that Jerry completely missed the point of--apparently reading for accuracy isn't something people do in "the adult world). It's that very attitude of condescension that makes people pensive about getting involved.
UltraDavid's point was not that the FGC won't work with the larger esports community or professional leagues, or that it shouldn't, bur rather that it doesn't need to, and that it's better that it doesn't unless the entity in question demonstrates an understanding and willingness to fit within our modus operandi. Otherwise, there's no point.
ThatCrazyGuy
Member
Hey guys who go to MLG, and or went to Tekken MLG stuff.
Is all the floor space allocated to tourny matches? Is there alot of room for casuals? Is that part of the culture of MLG events as well? To me, EVO is just not about the tourny (though it's the main thing), I go for the causal matches. It feels like a convention. I would hate to lose that.
Is all the floor space allocated to tourny matches? Is there alot of room for casuals? Is that part of the culture of MLG events as well? To me, EVO is just not about the tourny (though it's the main thing), I go for the causal matches. It feels like a convention. I would hate to lose that.
That's a good way to describe majors, they're like this awesome hybrid of a WSOP-style event and an anime con. EVO even has cosplayers like Kayo and that Juri. The downside, you get the stench of an anime con.
FallingEdge
Member
Does MLG allow a BYOC area?
ThatCrazyGuy
Member
I think it is a big point actually to be honest, and I think it is what people are talking about when they don't want to lose the home grown feel.
I think BYOC and causal matches are part of major tourny experience. If that was lost, I would be against it, because that would directly affect my personal enjoyment of going to them (bigger point bonuses doesn't really affect me, a pot monster).
People are turning on SBO and how they run things now as well.
The Faceless Master
Member
he lost me at "Yankees diehard"
Sixfortyfive
He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
That's a pretty big factor in whether I feel like attending or not, so why shouldn't I worry about it?
Floor space is plenty, a lot of chairs also. If may get crowded Sat night/Sun afternoon in the SC2 area.
The events do have free play (at least for Halo).
Teknopathetic
Member
"I think BYOC and causal matches are part of major tourny experience. If that was lost, I would be against it, because that would directly affect my personal enjoyment of going to them (bigger point bonuses doesn't really affect me, a pot monster)."
This is mindnumbing. It's a handful of tournaments. It's not going to change the dozens of other tournaments running throughout the year, so who cares if they have a BYOC or not? If you don't want to go, don't go. I don't see why you'd actively be against its existence, though. It makes absolutely fuck all sense.
This is mindnumbing. It's a handful of tournaments. It's not going to change the dozens of other tournaments running throughout the year, so who cares if they have a BYOC or not? If you don't want to go, don't go. I don't see why you'd actively be against its existence, though. It makes absolutely fuck all sense.
ThatCrazyGuy
Member
Whats mindnumbing about it? Plenty of people care if they have BYOC or not. Believe it or not, people want to play fighting games beyond their tournament matches. What if you go 2 and out? You go play some casuals. Have you been to a fighting game tournament before?
We are all adults with not alot of free time. So if there is a big event, that is a natural reason for people of the same interests to congregate. Hey, we are all together, lets play some fighting games, not just the tourny ones. It's like a fighting game family reunion.
I am for MLG, but they are saying they want to work with the FGC and keep what makes the community tick, and BYOC and casuals outside of the tourny are part of that.
I don't have time to go people house's all the time. We all play online. It is nice to go to events to play outside the tourny matches. Nobody wants to just go, play their set matches, then go home. It's a chance to socialize around the competition of playing the different fighting games we love.
Teknopathetic
Member
"Whats mindnumbing about it? Plenty of people care if they have BYOC or not. Believe it or not, people want to play fighting games beyond their tournament matches. What if you go 2 and out? You go play some casuals. Have you been to a fighting game tournament before?"
What's mindnumbing is being against a tournament existing because it doesn't have BYOC. I said as much in my post, read it sometime. It doesn't affect other tournaments. If you don't want to go, that's fine, but saying you're "against" it because it doesn't have BYOC is silly.
What's mindnumbing is being against a tournament existing because it doesn't have BYOC. I said as much in my post, read it sometime. It doesn't affect other tournaments. If you don't want to go, that's fine, but saying you're "against" it because it doesn't have BYOC is silly.
ThatCrazyGuy
Member
It's mindnumbing not to personally support something that is not in their best interests? Sure man.
They can still do their tournament/event. I just won't support it by attending if it's just play your matches, or watch, with no BYOC. I'm sure they would get along fine without me.
I think they are doing this whole outreach thing now to figure out the right way to do things, hence our feedback, and what we want and enjoy.
Didn't the MLG CEO say he is about community? BYOC and casuals are about community.
ThatCrazyGuy
Member
Really? That sounds good. That's what I was wondering and asking for, because I haven't been to a MLG event.
Thanks for the info. It's cool there is space to allow them to do that.
You're acting like you're losing something, when it went have any effect on the events you do wish to attend whether MLG runs casuals or not.
Teknopathetic
Member
ThatCrazyGuy, I explicitly said you shouldn't go to the events if byoc is your main reason for going. Explicitly. I don't know how you misunderstood that so poorly.
ThatCrazyGuy
Member
Your right, I am not. I will still go to EVO, SCR.
The point of the whole ESports and FGC thing is they want to bring fighting games into the fold, and they are trying to feel out what would make people come out to their events.
I stating my opinion as a pot monster, that BYOC and casuals are a big part of why I go to EVO, and those same type of things would make me want to go out to MLG events. And alot of people feel the same.
Doesn't MLG want us people who go to EVO, SCR, Final Round to also come and patronize their MLG events?
Many local tournies will allow you to try and run a game, if you're willing to put in the effort, or if they have the space for casuals. Majors tend to have more space. Then you have folks like ShinBlanka who will run just about anything.
The downside is you're likely to only get 3-4 entrants for obscure poverty games.
ThatCrazyGuy
Member
That's not the point. Has MLG explicitly stated in stone that if their events take on Capcom games, they will not have BYOC to the fighting game community?
If they have not, that is a point of discussion that they are open to, hence I will state my opinion that I hope they do have those features (BYOC, casuals) for the community, to make a better event, that benefits not only their streams, with the top players, but with people who would like to attend.
Unless you work for MLG, and your final word is no BYOC/Casuals, I'll type whatever opinion I want untill a final decision is made, then I would live with it and not go and move on.
But it seems to me, the little details are up for discussion, hence, we shall discuss.
And hopefully MLG listens to the tournament going players views, and not yours on this subject (BYOC/Casuals), since you area so hardline about it, with the just don't come if you don't like it.
I don't blindly hate MLG. I would like to attend their events. If they don't care what the FGC thinks, why are they trying to reach out? Just tell us to screw off and hold the tournaments and tell us to deal with it and see what happens then. It might succeed, who knows.
Teknopathetic
Member
Which is not how your original post sounded, which read as though you were against MLG events entirely if they had no byoc. As though they shouldn't exist.
ThatCrazyGuy
Member
I just stated I wouldn't support it (if there was no BYOC/casuals). I didn't mean they shouldn't do it. They can do whatever they want if Capcom is on board.
They are reaching out to FGC, which I consider myself part of, and I am just stating my opinion on what it would take for me to attend MLG events and support them, like I support EVO and SCR.
BTW, I was at EVO 2005. I didn't think it was that bad with MLG. Just more space was needed.
They are reaching out to FGC, which I consider myself part of, and I am just stating my opinion on what it would take for me to attend MLG events and support them, like I support EVO and SCR.
BTW, I was at EVO 2005. I didn't think it was that bad with MLG. Just more space was needed.
Or you could end up with consistently solid numbers in some of the more obsucre games and have that pave the way toward getting said obscure game into Evo. Hey, it happens.
ThatCrazyGuy, to be fair, saying "I wouldn't support it" does sound like you're suggesting it shouldn't be there, just like saying you wouldn't support a political candidate would cause people to assume you don't want them in office. I get what you were saying, but...yeah.
^^^^this
http://8wayrun.com/threads/critical-edge-cut-off-your-nose-to-spite-your-face.9277/
Jaxel gives his take of the Soul Calibur community's reaction- which is different then the EVO community.
He is pretty anti-Capcom and some folks don't agree with him, but personally I do.
Edit: post got deleted.
Jaxel gives his take of the Soul Calibur community's reaction- which is different then the EVO community.
He is pretty anti-Capcom and some folks don't agree with him, but personally I do.
Edit: post got deleted.
When I was referring to "Gatekeepers" it was more the Cannons, Mr. Wizard, and some of the TOs, not UltraDavid.
And to the "The (Capcom) FGC doesn't need the leagues," the leagues are mad they can't get Capcom games. MLG/IPL would probably leave the Capcom FGC alone if if they didn't have to ask for permission of the community to get a license to hold SF4, MvC3. If TTT2 SC5, or some other game makes it big in 2013, in 2014 I wouldn't be surprised to see an MLG event day and date with with a major tournament (not EVO) as a shot across the bow to get the FGC to acknowledge their presence (although if the game is a success, MLG might not care at that point).
ThatCrazyGuy
Member
What did he say, in general? Sucks it got deleted.
Basic gist was that SRK and the EVO have always mistreated SC, they've screwed other games, and that the best thing SC could do would be to ally themselves with eSports to protect themselves from it happening again.
Honestly, he's got a point, but I think the GG and Smash communities have more rights to complain then the Soul community.
Honestly, he's got a point, but I think the GG and Smash communities have more rights to complain then the Soul community.
Phoenixazure
Member
Would KOF be a good subsitute for capcom games at MLG. A fresh scene for them to build up and mold on their own, worldwide appeal, a true 2d fighter compared to namco games/doa/MK to an extent and some crossover appeal with the marvel/sf crowd?
Realistically, I think the only games that would be worth it for MLG would be Tekken or SC right now. They have a strong, mostly independent community- and plenty of casuals.
I do see one major problem with Esports. Tournies are about the community largely, which is what attracts the pot monsters. Why should I hit a more focused event when I know I have no chance of winning?
Speaking as a person that has attended numerous MLG tournaments, grass roots tournaments attract almost nothing in terms of true pot monsters in relation to tournaments like MLG. They simply lack the ability to promote their events to the same capacity.
I definitely wouldn't call the Soulcalibur community strong, btw. They haven't had a good game to play in a long time (well, SC4 is considered "good" in terms of balance, but it's a boring as fuck to play game).
It's strong in the sense that people played it for a good while, despite the game, as you said, being mediocre. SC4 is not good in terms of balance at all on top of that, its balance is weaker then most other games this gen.
Fact is- lots of folks buy the game, annd lots of folks play the game competitively despite it being old (though it varies by region) . That's a sign of a strong community to me.
Freshmaker
I am Korean.
Only Malice says that.
Unrelated, but Lol at that stream guy.
For years after the MLG debacle, (honestly, things really broke down at the time when a couple of random guys contacted Sundance etc via AIM. They then ranted about people personally contacting them and said they were done with FG's because of those random AIM guys. MLG represents the professional world? Breaking off over an AIM conversation?) the SRK guys were saying they were happy with work with MLG again. They actively quashed hating on MLG because they didn't want to further degrade the relationship.
scytheavatar
Member
3D fighting games has always been terrible for spectators who don't have a deep understanding of them. That's why we used to see those "Fuck Tekken where's SF4?" everytime on the stream. I seriously doubt that any of the Namco games have enough appeal to justify staying long in the MLG.
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