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[Arde5643]

If this stream is trying to convince the FGC to take MLG/IPL seriously, then this is definitely one of the worst ways to go about it.

 

[El Sloth]

Listening to the Spooky interview in the vVv archives.

Hearing this guy talk about Ultradavid's point about the socio economic differences that David sees between the FGC and the greater Comp. Gaming community, it just feels like he didn't understand what David was trying to say at all. Or maybe I'm the one misunderstanding here?

And it's funny how right before he asks a loaded question he complains about David's point being a loaded comment.

 

[jwhit28]

I think the point of contention is that when MLG goes to Capcom for a Street Fighter 4 license, they get rejected. Allegedly the SRK Illuminati is what is keeping MLG from getting the license, therefore it makes more sense to talk/debate/rant at inkblot, Ponder, and Mr. Wizard then it is to go straight to Capcom.

Well the loose regional formation of players, games, and tournaments that make up the FGC and the few organizations that make up "e-sports" tried to get along and didn't. Right now it seems like a one or the other decision.

So does Capcom go with the loud guys that kept playing your unsupported games for years while you starved them for something new or support the organizations that have tried and failed with fighting games multiple times and would be fine with just FPS and RTS games?

 

[Slavik81]

MLG and other pro e-sports groups are clueless morons when it comes to fighting games.

Fighting game players pride themselves on knowing their shit and being real, meanwhile e-sports groups are herp-derping with Dead or Alive tournaments. It's like your drooling inbred cousin hosting a Chess tournament but showing up with Connect 4.

People need to understand the history of the fighting game scene. I remember going to B2, going upstairs to the MIT convenience store and buying some duct tape so we could set up some camcorders to videotape the arcade screens and later send out VHS tapes. We're talking people who have a real love for the game and scene. That's not particularly compatible with clueless money grubbers who can't do fireball motions.

If e-sports wants fighting games they should first and foremost get educated and show some real knowledge and interest of fighting games. Otherwise it comes off very badly as clueless dopes who choose games based on Gamestop sales figures. You probably wouldn't take an alternate football league seriously if the owners thought football was played with Badminton gear. That's where e-sports is now with fighting games.

This is a classic case of people on the outside just not getting it at all.

You seem to think that the onus for making fighting games understandable is on everyone else. It's not. If you want to have outsiders understand fighting games, that's something the game makers and the community needs to work towards.

 

[Warpticon]

You seem to think that the onus for making fighting games understandable is on everyone else. It's not. If you want to have outsiders understand fighting games, that's something the game makers and the community needs to work towards.

You seem to be reading things other than the text on your screen. He's talking about heads of leagues and whatnot understanding the scene, not viewers understanding the game.

 

[Arde5643]

Well the loose regional formation of players, games, and tournaments that make up the FGC and the few organizations that make up "e-sports" tried to get along and didn't. Right now it seems like a one or the other decision.

So does Capcom go with the loud guys that kept playing your unsupported games for years while you starved them for something new or support the the organizations that have tried and failed with fighting games multiple times and would be fine with just FPS and RTS games?

.

Good one here - the debacle during MLG/EVO and MLG killing Tekken community really made Capcom wary of dealing with the leagues unless anyone from the community is involved.

And it seems so far the leagues are still thinking they can do the whole fighting games tourney with just their own people.


EDIT: Spooky's just such a chill calm and collected guy as well that the host going on a lecture just makes him look really bad.

 

[El Sloth]

You seem to be reading things other than the text on your screen. He's talking about heads of leagues and whatnot understanding the scene, not viewers understanding the game.

Well, the point about the FGC doing their part to get people (the heads of the leagues) to better understand the scene is a good one I think. I hear a lot of folks saying how the heads need to to do more to to understand the scene, but shouldn't they also try to reach out to the leagues themselves? Help them understand?

 

[The Xtortionist]

.

Good one here - the debacle during MLG/EVO and MLG killing Tekken community really made Capcom wary of dealing with the leagues unless anyone from the community is involved

1. The Evo 2005 thing is blown way out of proportion by the FGC. Some overexcited (and drunk according to MLG's SVP of league ops) FGC members were heckling an MLG Halo pro and were escorted offsite after refusing to calm down. Evo also got half the floor space for that event along with the main stage.

2. MLG didn't do shit to Tekken.

And it seems so far the leagues are still thinking they can do the whole fighting games tourney with just their own people.

That's why MLG hired community members to assist with every single game they've run, right?

 

[jwhit28]

Well, the point about the FGC doing their part to get people (the heads of the leagues) to better understand the scene is a good one I think. I hear a lot of folks saying how the heads need to to do more to to understand the scene, but shouldn't they also try to reach out to the leagues themselves? Help them understand?

I think the whole argument over the last few weeks has been WHY should the fighting game community reach out. If people want to get actively involved and participate there are connections down to individual cities through SRK. They couldn't careless about the leagues though. Its not their burden to prove they are worthy of a league's acceptance.

 

[MarkMan]

2. MLG didn't do shit to Tekken.

Yes they did. They made the best/most hype TEKKEN events in years. And it presented it in an all new light for the community. It was missed after last season, but that's how it goes.

They did a great job thanks to their staff and Filthierich (coincidentally is now Namco Bandai's community manager).

 

[Arde5643]

jedirobb in the stream made it worth listening though - hopefully he will do fighting games justice in IPL.

He's from the grassroots and it seems he knows the way to tie the FGC and IPL together.

Hell, he wants Skullgirls in.

 

[CyReN]

Yes they did. They made the best/most hype TEKKEN events in years. And it presented it in an all new light for the community. It was missed after last season, but that's how it goes.

They did a great job thanks to their staff and Filthierich (coincidentally is now Namco Bandai's community manager).

Along with that, MLG hired Chris Puckett to run the early Halo tournaments because he ran them and was familiar with the rules. The same could be said about AlphaZealot with the Smash tournaments at MLG. MLG is pretty grassroots, just because they present themselves as professional doesn't mean they don't understand the communities.

It's getting very annoying to hear these "fabricated" stories from the fighting community, MLG has done a lot to help competitive gaming. I hope both sides can get something going for the following season.

 

[The Xtortionist]

Yes they did. They made the best/most hype TEKKEN events in years. And it presented it in an all new light for the community. It was missed after last season, but that's how it goes.

They did a great job thanks to their staff and Filthierich (coincidentally is now Namco Bandai's community manager).

Sorry, I meant negatively.

 

[hamchan]

I think the whole argument over the last few weeks has been WHY should the fighting game community reach out. If people want to get actively involved and participate there are connections down to individual cities through SRK. They couldn't careless about the leagues though. Its not their burden to prove they are worthy of a league's acceptance.

I think fighting games joining an MLG type organization is a good opportunity for more exposure, more money for players, just more benefits in general. If they don't want to join that's fine and the FGC can just carry on doing what they're doing, but I think it would be a shame if we never see the genre become something much bigger than it currently is. MLG has already reached out so there's not much they can really do. The ball is in Capcom's court imo.

 

[Toski]

I think the whole argument over the last few weeks has been WHY should the fighting game community reach out. If people want to get actively involved and participate there are connections down to individual cities through SRK. They couldn't careless about the leagues though. Its not their burden to prove they are worthy of a league's acceptance.

This is mostly a Capcom fighting game community issue, which is why MLG & IPL are going to go after Skullgirls, TTT2 and possibly SC5. It seems the only real loser here might be Capcom. I would hope that the leagues see enough sense to stay out of the way of well-known and long established majors and EVO.

 

[SolarPowered]

jedirobb in the stream made it worth listening though - hopefully he will do fighting games justice in IPL.

He's from the grassroots and it seems he knows the way to tie the FGC and IPL together.

Hell, he wants Skullgirls in.

I've listened to some stuff today, but I haven't gone through that stream yet. This little bit sure came out of the blue.

 

[jwhit28]

This is mostly a Capcom fighting game community issue, which is why MLG & IPL are going to go after Skullgirls, TTT2 and possibly SC5. It seems the only real loser here might be Capcom. I would hope that the leagues see enough sense to stay out of the way of well-known and long established majors and EVO.

I remember a few MLG events going up against majors this year.

 

[The Xtortionist]

I remember a few MLG events going up against majors this year.

Irrelevant when there's no overlapping games.

 

[enzo_gt]

I've listened to some stuff today, but I haven't gone through that stream yet. This little bit sure came out of the blue.

If you want to preserve your sanity, listen to the jedirobb bit only. He knows what's up and has his head screwed on straight when it comes to being in tune with the community.

All the vVv stream exemplified is the purported difference in perspectives that DOES exist between the two ends of the bargaining table. If they can't meet in these discussions so far, then there is a long road ahead before some actual money begins being exchanged. I listened to the entire thing, but I haven't read UltraDavid's article yet so I gotta find a good long time to do so before I decide to write something up. Certainly a lot of points raised in the videos alone.

 

[Tashi]

If MLG says fuck the FGC, we're doing things however we want to, would you watch? No. Would your favorite players attend? Probably not. And that is in no way good for MLG. So why would they do that?

 

[CyReN]

I remember a few MLG events going up against majors this year.

Clap went into detail about the events overlapping, they have the same agent (or w/e) position plans these events as the ones that overlapped. It's on the vVv stream rebroadcast if you want to hear it.

 

[BamYouHaveAids]

Sp00ky interview on vVv. Starts 23 mins in.

I don't understand how an apparently successful business man thinks outright calling people liars and cheats, while being patronizing ass is the best way to carry favor with the community they hope to do business with. Especially when interacting with a non confrontational member of the community who is loved by all. "This is how things are done in the "adult" business world."

Honestly everyone but Jerry? actually seemed level headed.

 

[SolarPowered]

If you want to preserve your sanity, listen to the jedirobb bit only. He knows what's up and has his head screwed on straight when it comes to being in tune with the community.

All the vVv stream exemplified is the purported difference in perspectives that DOES exist between the two ends of the bargaining table. If they can't meet in these discussions so far, then there is a long road ahead before some actual money begins being exchanged. I listened to the entire thing, but I haven't read UltraDavid's article yet so I gotta find a good long time to do so before I decide to write something up. Certainly a lot of points raised in the videos alone.

Make sure to place a box of tissues next to you when you read Ultradavid's piece. It really is that fantastic.

 

[Sixfortyfive]

I don't understand how an apparently successful business man thinks outright calling people liars and cheats, while being patronizing ass is the best way to carry favor with the community they hope to do business with. Especially when interacting with a non confrontational member of the community who is loved by all. "This is how things are done in the "adult" business world."

Honestly everyone but Jerry? actually seemed level headed.

Right on the money.

I'd hope that David, Spooky, or any other major players who respond to this would have the maturity to just ignore that guy and address the things said by everyone else instead, as most of them actually had thoughtful and constructive opinions to bring to the table and aren't as visibly eager to burn bridges.

 

[Toski]

I don't understand how an apparently successful business man thinks outright calling people liars and cheats, while being patronizing ass is the best way to carry favor with the community they hope to do business with. Especially when interacting with a non confrontational member of the community who is loved by all. "This is how things are done in the "adult" business world."

Honestly everyone but Jerry? actually seemed level headed.

I think that Jerry's (is that the guy who made Spooky salty over inkblot?) problem overall is the "We don't need you guys, we can do it on our own" thing. To him this is down right hostile and exclusionary, and so he (pro league) meets it with hostility.

I think the best thing is a 2 season approach, an EVO season and an MLG/IPL season. No one actually wants an EVO every month, or else EVO wouldn't be the "Super Bowl" of fighting games. Have the EVO tournament season from February to June/July and MLG from August to December. MLG should put money into EVO, NEC, SCR, & Season's Beatings and also offer stream and logistic support if they really want to help the "FGC."

 

[The Xtortionist]

I think that Jerry's (is that the guy who made Spooky salty over inkblot?) problem overall is the "We don't need you guys, we can do it on our own" thing. To him this is down right hostile and exclusionary, and so he (pro league) meets it with hostility.

That, and the fact that inkblot's article is filled with misinformation about MLG that has yet to be addressed or corrected.

 

[BamYouHaveAids]

That, and the fact that inkblot's article is filled with misinformation about MLG that has yet to be addressed or corrected.

As far as I know it's hearsay on both sides. I haven't exactly seen floorplans...and according to this podcast no one knows why WCG did what they did, everything is just conjecture.

Regardless, being condescending/confrontational and calling someone a liar even if you believe it is true is not an effective debate tactic, particularly when the side you are debating with holds all the cards.

 

[KidA Seven]

MLG Adam aka Clap

Hey everyone,

A few things below that I need to clarify. Excuse the lack of 'corporate' response, this is a 5 years in the making response.

Who is MLG?
My name is Adam Apicella, I am the SVP of League Operations at MLG. Fancy acronym for a title, but at its root I run MLG's league and plan the events (among a million other things). In June I turned 30, and this November marked my 9th year here at MLG. Why is that important? Well at 21 I took my first post college job with an upstart gaming 'league'. I turned down a law school scholarship, sold on the vision of the 2 co founders, and became their first employee. For the first 2 years we bickered over how to fund $1,000 purses, fought tooth and nail to get 14 Halo teams to our west coast events, unloaded trucks, taped down wires, worked 20 hour days, all on the fumes of a vision. Throughout all of the hard times, we always followed a few core tenets: always follow our rules, always pay our prize money, and community first. Those simple core beliefs still exist today. The reason this whole story is even important is because it highlights that we are no different than any of you. Sundance and Sepso were 30 and 31 respectively when they founded MLG, that requires some intelligence, initiative, vision, luck, and most importantly balls to do what they did. They should be respected as leaders for all of us, not debated endlessly over motives.

'Esports'
I hate the term esports, with a freaking passion. I'm a sports guy. Diehard Ohio State Buckeyes fan, Lebron hater, Tebow believer, Roy Jones Jr. nostalgia-ist, GSP grease accuser, BJ Penn lover, Yankees diehard from childhood memories of Don Mattingly, and Roy Bourque supporter because he was the toughest fighter on the first NHL Hockey for Sega. I want 'this', whatever it is that you label what we do, to be as close as possible to real sport. I want 2 competitors to enter a competition medium, and the victor is crowned via a rule set that enables the best to triumph. I want fans to care about the people competing. I want them to scream in support, revel vicariously in their favorites rapture, and feel downtrodden in defeat. Whether you operate giant annual events, online tournaments, a series of grass roots events, arcade events, LAN center events, or college intramural competitions, then I'm hoping you do well because to a degree we're all on the same team. You will never hear me saying a bad thing about another event, regardless of what is said about the company I work for. It is counter-intuitive, harmful for all, and short sighted. I want to operate incredible events, hear the praise, fix the critiques, and inch towards making this a main stream 'sport'.

EVO 2005
I'll make this one quick. I operated this event. I made the floor plan. I booked the venue. I worked with Seth, Tom, and Joey (I think that is Mr. Wizard's name...been a long time). I can without an ounce of trepidation say that everything being said about that event is FALSE. MLG paid for the venue yet we gave Evo half of the floor space, THE ONLY STAGE, and all of the spectator seating. Now don't get me wrong, this was 2005, we were both very small events in comparison today, but we collectively filled every inch of that ballroom at the Green Valley Ranch. While all of the FGC highlight matches were taking place on the stage all weekend, our tournament baby Halo was played on a very unremarkable and normal floor station.

Complaints about it being too loud? Is this seriously being floated as a truth? MLG as a business strategy has always pursued life style brands and fought vehemently to fight an unfair 'nerd' stereo type that was branded on gaming. The element of a hyped up crowd was something we ALWAYS wanted. How could anyone believe we would be upset about that? I will say that there was a single incident that probably sparked what is now a blown out of proportion 'truth'. During the Halo finals one of the Evo finals was taking place and their crowd was standing room only, pushing all the way back to where the Halo finals were being played. In the middle of the match, 3 very drunk spectators started heckling Gandhi (a Halo player) mid match. They were told to settle down, at which point they got more inflammatory and were asked to leave. That is what spurred the Tom Cannon 'be respectful' speech on the stage, not crowd noise.

Ruining the 'Majors'
There is a debate going on that MLG's presence will cause damage to long standing community events. My email is aa@mlgpro.com. If you're a T.O email me. IF MLG picked up fighting games again, I always want to do it right by the community. The last thing I want to do is schedule against other events. I am 100% open to seeding MLG fighting tournaments from community events. Email me. I read everything and respond to everything.

MLG and the FGC
I just want to run great tournaments. Period. If there is any other nonsense out there, ask me first, my email is listed above. Ask people like Rich Bantegui, Joe Versical, Chris Brown, and Chris Chou about us. We hire from the community and we try to deliver what the community wants.
Prizes always paid
Rules always followed
Community driven
Same guys then, same guys now.

Thanks for your time.

http://shoryuken.com/forum/index.php?threads/editorial-vote-with-your-quarters-warning-long.150754/page-5

 

[The Xtortionist]

and according to this podcast no one knows why WCG did what they did, everything is just conjecture.

Probably because Capcom won't let leagues license their games. Nobody fucking wants DOA.

 

[Toski]

MLG Adam aka Clap

Yeah, and Mike Watson blew up Adam over what may or may not have happened at the EVO/MLG 2005 event. There is still distrust (more towards the SRK side) over what happened at that time. I think MLG should go straight at inkblot, s-kill, and Svensson over what their plans are with a Street Fighter 4/UMvC3 license.

MLG's best hope for a Capcom game should be on Street Fighter X Tekken. If the EVO series thinks it will be a logistical nightmare to run and EVO is apathetic or agonistic towards it, MLG should make a push to have a chance to run it.

 

[Valnen]

Leave that shit for Asia. All these different genre of games shouldn't be lumped together anyway. shooters, turn based, racing, fighting, sports. Who's bright idea was it to put all these games together and form a "league"?

Why? Gaming is gaming.

 

[BamYouHaveAids]

Probably because Capcom won't let leagues license their games. Nobody fucking wants DOA.

I'm almost entirely sure no major stream was confident in streaming an almost decade old 2d Third Strike. DOA was new, fresh, and had excellent retail sales. Let's be honest here, even recent stream monsters bitch about 2d games. I really doubt any major streams starting clamoring for Capcom games prior SF4.

 

[The Xtortionist]

I'm almost entirely sure no major stream was confident in streaming an almost decade old 2d Third Strike. DOA was new, fresh, and had excellent retail sales. Let's be honest here, even recent stream monsters bitch about 2d games. I really doubt any major streams starting clamoring for Capcom games prior SF4.

I thought MvC2's insane hype always transcended its 2D...ness. That's what I would have ran, at least.

 

[Sixfortyfive]

Why? Gaming is gaming.

I have extremely little interest in playing or spectating any of those genres he posted besides fighters, so I'm not sure that's a good argument.

I thought MvC2's insane hype always transcended its 2D...ness. That's what I would have ran, at least.

My mind runs wild with the ramifications of a Dark Prince scandal in an MLG type environment. That'd be comedy gold, if nothing else.

 

[The Xtortionist]

My mind runs wild with the ramifications of a Dark Prince scandal in an MLG type environment. That'd be comedy gold, if nothing else.

Context?

 

[BamYouHaveAids]

I thought MvC2's insane hype always transcended its 2D...ness. That's what I would have ran, at least.

You have at the very least a faint idea of what makes a game competitive. I seriously doubt 2d games were even considered as WCG had no idea what they were doing (screaming coaches with stank breath). DOA had excellent sales, excellent graphics, and is spectator friendly--if someone that was clueless about fighters wanted a fighting game this would be extremely attractive. If they couldn't get Capcom licenses they could have ran Soul Calibur 2 which was slightly more dated than DOA or even Tekken and Guilty Gear XX which all had decent competitive gaming scenes although the DOA community got bigger once it was featured on television. I would be surprised if DOA wasn't their first choice.

 

[Valnen]

I have extremely little interest in playing or spectating any of those genres he posted besides fighters, so I'm not sure that's a good argument.

So don't. Nobody is forcing you to, even if it becomes mainstream and is in a league with such games. They have schedules, just don't watch the parts you don't like.

 

[Toski]

Context?

Dark Prince physically threatened violence and I guess EVO banned him for life.

http://shoryuken.com/forum/index.ph...s-officially-banned-from-the-evo-series.24515

 

[The Xtortionist]

Dark Prince physically threatened violence and I guess EVO banned him for life.

http://shoryuken.com/forum/index.ph...s-officially-banned-from-the-evo-series.24515

wow, how sad

 

[Sixfortyfive]

Dark Prince physically threatened violence and I guess EVO banned him for life.

http://shoryuken.com/forum/index.ph...s-officially-banned-from-the-evo-series.24515

Yeah, that's the big one. For the uninitiated, Dark Prince was a west-coast player who became infamous late in MvC2's heyday for his theatrics and trash talk. Supposedly decent enough at the game to make a few waves too, but that's not what anyone remembers him for.

There were all kinds of stories about that guy. My favorite is probably the supposed money match he participated in that had to have a "security detail" (read: Mike Watson, if I'm not mistaken, armed with an axe) to ensure safety and keep everyone in line.

 

[scytheavatar]

I thought MvC2's insane hype always transcended its 2D...ness. That's what I would have ran, at least.

The game's super crazy pace and everyone playing the same team would make it a hard sell for those who don't know how to play it.

 

[Margalis]

If you want to convince the FGC to support MLG probably the best way to do it is to attack UltraDavid and the Cannon brothers. Great plan!

 

[Slavik81]

You seem to be reading things other than the text on your screen. He's talking about heads of leagues and whatnot understanding the scene, not viewers understanding the game.

My apologies. This is a similar, but different thread than the one I thought I was reading earlier. I misunderstood what he expected from them.

 

[Toski]

If you want to convince the FGC to support MLG probably the best way to do it is to attack UltraDavid and the Cannon brothers. Great plan!

I don't think anyone is attacking UltraDavid and the Cannon bros out of malice, it looks they are the gatekeepers to Capcom's games for the time being. It seems that the leagues are willing to work with SRK/EVO (or so they say), but it doesn't seem the Capcom community wants them in.

If MLG wants into fighting games it more or less has to build up a non Capcom fighter. If in 2014 MLG has a bigger prize pot for TTT2 than EVO can give, there will be vitriol. If they are also scheduled on the same weekend, I can see EVO being angry, I can also see MLG saying "Too bad, we tried to work with you guys and you wanted none of it now you can deal with it." This will determine if there is a "Fighting Game Community" or a "Capcom Fighting Game Community."

 

[V_Arnold]

I have extremely little interest in playing or spectating any of those genres he posted besides fighters, so I'm not sure that's a good argument.

Then do not watch other stuff. But that should not lead to actively discouraging collaboration, as that is quite pointless.

 

[rCIZZLE]

The only way the leagues will have a successful fighting game division is if they get the Capcom games. I wish they could just integrate the FGC without changing anything so everybody wins... we don't lose what we love about the community, the leagues get part of a booming genre, and the players get the pay they deserve.

 

[voodoopanda]

I'm waiting for, while everyone else is arguing and discussing the whole eSports/FGC thing, Triforce to return from retirement and team up with InControl to form the North American Fighting Game League, where they both do commentary and have 100k prize pools and play the games over XBox Live. Circumvent everything going on.

 

[Aaron]

I have extremely little interest in playing or spectating any of those genres he posted besides fighters, so I'm not sure that's a good argument.

Since the games tend to be run simultaneously in MLG you wouldn't have to watch anything but fighting matches anyway. It's actually harder on fans of multiple games.

 

[CPS2]

I thought that was a great podcast and had some excellent counterpoints to Tom and Ultradavid's articles, though its got me wondering exactly what presentation benefits you'd get with more money involved, and whether it'd mean you have to pay for more content or sit through more commercials or what.

 

[TGMIII]

I thought that was a great podcast and had some excellent counterpoints to Tom and Ultradavid's articles, though its got me wondering exactly what presentation benefits you'd get with more money involved, and whether it'd mean you have to pay for more content or sit through more commercials or what.

You would be sitting through more commercials for sure. I'm not sure if they still run the same ads but MLG at the beginning of the year ran like 2/3 adds back to back between each SC2 match but they weren't long and you were watching more SC2 than ads for sure.