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[SquiddyCracker]

Damn, it's kinda scary how closely Wii U resembles the Wii when compared with current gen. consoles at the time.

Wii = Double RAM of Xbox
Wii-U = Double RAM of Xbox360

Wii = CPU weaker than Xbox's CPU
Wii-U = CPU weaker than Xbox 360's CPU.

:/

That's kinda inaccurate.

The Wii U has 4x the RAM of the Xbox360, and its CPU isn't necessarily weaker than the CPU of the 360. Notice that the developers say that the "power" is weaker, which can refer to anything from how it compare with their ported over code to clock speeds (which as we know, are pretty much pointless when comparing different architectures).

Similarly, it looks like the next gen will at most make the same leap from Wii U that the Wii U did from current gen:

400-500 Gflops versus 1.2-1.8 Tflops (3-4x); 2GB Ram versus 4-8GB Ram (2-4x)

 

[lwilliams3]

The CPU is "weaker" because it isn't meant to do what CPUs used to do on PS3 and 360. If your code is heavily CPU dependent, you'll run into issues. It's a different, more modern design. And that's pretty much it.

I doubt either system will have a CPU that "completely destroys" CELL or Xenon in all areas. And let me tell you why: When it comes to pure single precision floating point, CELL even "destroys" a much more modern Nehalem (Core i7).

What you are stating does make a lot of sense. In other words: The Wii U was designed to be more like a Durango/PS4-- than a Xbox360/PS3++

Hahaha I like this idea. Last gen, PS3's GPU was so weak that it regularly needs help from the CPU to perform like the 360.

Now the WiiU has the opposite problem.

Yes, though, unlike the PS3's, the design choices of the Wii U will likely also reflect how the other next-gen consoles are designed.

 

[wsippel]

So this means CPU can only handle less NPC/AI than PS360?

Yes, because you're supposed to run AI on the GPU.

 

[donny2112]

Read up, clock speed isn't everything,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Out-of-order_execution

PS360 CPU uses in-order-execution (which can waste clock cycles) vs. Wii U CPU uses out-of-order execution (which uses clock cycles more efficiently). Once again, Nintendo chose efficiency (and backwards compatibility, since they've been doing this for generations) over raw power. From my understanding of the speculation threads, raw CPU speed could be 50% or less than Xenon, yet actual execution may only be slightly less to even to Xenon. OOE makes a big difference.

If they haven't been used to OOE in CPUs (i.e. they haven't been programming for Nintendo systems for 2 generations, and most third-party devs haven't), it's going to take a bit to get them back up to speed.

 

[Chaplain]

Hahaha I like this idea. Last gen, PS3's GPU was so weak that it regularly needs help from the CPU to perform like the 360.

Now the WiiU has the opposite problem.

But didn't the PS3 problem not end up being a problem at all once devs learned how to work through the weaknesses?

 

[Durante]

Oh my god, it's still the "they need to get used to OOE" excuse?

1) Extracting good performance from an OOE architecture is generally much simpler than doing so from an in-order architecture.
2) Games these days aren't written in assembly.


Edit:
And now we get PS3 .gifs. Wonderful.

 

[zoukka]

But didn't the PS3 problem not end up being a problem at all once devs learned how to work through the weaknesses?

Yes devs eventually learned how to get the most out of the platform, just like with any successfull platform ever. (and thanks for the bloated GIFS! post)

 

[donny2112]

the system is pretty much PS3/360+, and realize if they want bleeding edge tech they'll be either compromising with Orbis/Durango or going uberPC for the big enchilada.

Yes. Consider Wii U somewhere between PS360 generation and mid-way to PS480 generation with more PS480 generation features than PS360, which should make porting from PS480 easier.

 

[walking fiend]

Oh my god, it's still the "they need to get used to OOE" excuse?

1) Extracting good performance from an OOE architecture is generally much simpler than doing so from an in-order architecture.
2) Games these days aren't written in assembly.


Edit:
And now we get PS3 .gifs. Wonderful.

OMG it's still you, speaking as if you know details about Wii U CPU, why you know nothing...

I'm baffled why you, among every person, should act like this...

 

[Durante]

OMG it's still you, speaking as if you know details about Wii U CPU, why you know nothing...

When did I speak as if I know details of the Wii U CPU? Quote or shut up.

I may speak as if I know about CPU architectures in general, and that's because I do.

I'm baffled why you, among every person, should act like this...

Act like what? Like technical inaccuracy and mindless repetition of poorly understood facts in order to "defend" or "attack" a faceless corporate entity are greatly annoying to me?

 

[wsippel]

Oh my god, it's still the "they need to get used to OOE" excuse?

1) Extracting good performance from an OOE architecture is generally much simpler than doing so from an in-order architecture.
2) Games these days aren't written in assembly.

True, utilizing the CPU is much simpler. Moving shit like physics and pathfinding over to the GPU is an entirely different issue, though. And that's what you're supposed to do on Wii U.

 

[Perkel]

That's kinda inaccurate.

The Wii U has 4x the RAM of the Xbox360, and its CPU isn't necessarily weaker than the CPU of the 360.)

It has 2 not 4 times. (512 vs 1GB) and x360 cpu is from 2005. It should be way better than this.

 

[Dennis]

When did I speak as if I know details of the Wii U CPU? Quote or shut up.

I may speak as if I know about CPU architectures in general, and that's because I do.

bam! money quote

 

[walking fiend]

When did I speak as if I know details of the Wii U CPU? Quote or shut up.

I may speak as if I know about CPU architectures in general, and that's because I do.

when you use the term 'excuse' you are implying that Wii U CPU is indeed weak, but people are trying to twist this fact [while relying on programming info which you 'may' know to be incorrect].

Good that you know about CPU architecture in general to prevent false claims, but unless you know about Wii U CPU in detail, your general assumptions may not be applicable.

 

[Mysterious Stranger]

So in other words wait a couple of years until they master the full power of the system.

 

[wsippel]

It has 2 not 4 times. (512 vs 1GB) and x360 cpu is from 2005. It should be way better than this.

It's 2GB. 1GB might be reserved (for now), but it's not like 360 and PS3 aren't running operating systems.

 

[tnaden]

It has 2 not 4 times. (512 vs 1GB) and x360 cpu is from 2005. It should be way better than this.

The Wii U has 2 gig.
The XBOX360 has 512mb.
EDIT: beaten like the vita

 

[Durante]

when you use the term 'excuse' you are implying that Wii U CPU is indeed weak, but people are trying to twist this fact

But it is truly weak. We are having a discussion on whether it's slightly faster or slower than a console CPU from 7 years ago. Do you expect me to sugar-coat that?

 

[Man]

I forgot how good those games look. Christ.

 

[Ranger X]

Alright! More grist for the mill. Wii U tech crew gather in.

Anyways, sounds like the usual.



I dont get this. The article author states the game does not look as good as it's PS3 counterpart, but the dev says it has better graphics?

MANY people are seeing "graphic quality" and "framerate" as 2 things completely appart.
The guy there means the game looks better but doesn't RUN better.

 

[Y2Kev]

Yes. Consider Wii U somewhere between PS360 generation and mid-way to PS480 generation with more PS480 generation features than PS360, which should make porting from PS480 easier.

Sure, in the same way that New York is midway between Miami and Boston.

We really don't have a ton of evidence to draw any conclusion on where things are.

 

[walking fiend]

But it is truly weak. We are having a discussion on whether it's slightly faster or slower than a console CPU from 7 years ago. Do you expect me to sugar-coat that?

You know something that we do not know, or are you just trying to use your technical knowledge leverage to support your uninformed and biased claims?

No matter how good a programmer you are, unless you have worked on Wii U for a reasonable amount of time or have very detailed knowledge [which I assume to be heavily under NDA], what you claim means nothing.

 

[Zarx]

Oh my god, it's still the "they need to get used to OOE" excuse?

1) Extracting good performance from an OOE architecture is generally much simpler than doing so from an in-order architecture.
2) Games these days aren't written in assembly.


Edit:
And now we get PS3 .gifs. Wonderful.

Yea my understanding of OOE is that it actually makes less optimised code run faster than it would otherwise, as it it allows the CPU to execute another instruction if the next instruction is waiting for a cache miss or some other interrupt. I don't think you can really do anything to specifically optimise code for OOE.

 

[wsippel]

But it is truly weak. We are having a discussion on whether it's slightly faster or slower than a console CPU from 7 years ago. Do you expect me to sugar-coat that?

And CELL is still faster than the latest and greatest Core i7 at certain operations, yet we probably agree that an i7 isn't weak. Not saying the Wii U CPU is a beast (it certainly isn't), but just because certain devs run into issues with certain code doesn't mean it's shit.

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

"So for games in the Warriors series, including Dynasty Warriors and Warriors Orochi, when you have a lot of enemies coming at you at once, the performance tends to be affected because of the CPU.

Seems a bit weird to make these examples of using PS360's strengths, considering how long PS2/PSP/Wii kept getting versions of these games.

 

[walking fiend]

Sure, in the same way that New York is midway between Miami and Boston.

We really don't have a ton of evidence to draw any conclusion on where things are.

Specially considering that we have even less knowledge of Nextbox/PS4; if they are released for example in 2014, who knows what kind of power they may have.

[though I guess Wii U could still get ports, like the way Wii did or even PSP; but at that point it would most probably be a matter of economy rather than technology]

 

[Perkel]

It's 2GB. 1GB might be reserved (for now), but it's not like 360 and PS3 aren't running operating systems.

The Wii U has 2 gig.
The XBOX360 has 512mb.
EDIT: beaten like the vita

So by your saying Vita has 640MB? Don't confuse Vram with normal ram.

 

[Durante]

You know something that we do not know, or are you just trying to use your technical knowledge leverage to support your uninformed claims?

Ok, some basics:

- I consider a CPU "weak" for a 2012 console if it's not significantly faster (say, at least three times as fast overall) as the CPU in the 2005 Xbox360 (Xenon).
- If that were the case, then we wouldn't have every developer working on Wii U complaining about CPU performance.
- We also know that the Wii U CPU is about 1/10 to 1/4 as fast as a 2009 PC CPU in one particular benchmark. A benchmark that has been optimized for it.

This is enough evidence for me to consider the CPU "weak", until convinced otherwise.

And CELL is still faster than the latest and greatest Core i7 at certain operations, yet we probably agree that an i7 isn't weak. Not saying the Wii U CPU is a beast (it certainly isn't), but just because certain devs run into issues with certain code doesn't mean it's shit.

I never said it's "shit", I said it's "weak". And Cell is of course an outlier in terms of peak performance, that's why it makes more sense to compare to Xenon, which seems much closer to the Wii U CPU.

 

[Mileena]

"One of the weaknesses of the Wii U compared to PS3 and Xbox 360 is the CPU power is a little bit less," he said. "So for games in the Warriors series, including Dynasty Warriors and Warriors Orochi, when you have a lot of enemies coming at you at once, the performance tends to be affected because of the CPU.




Ouch, doesn't sound good.

 

[wsippel]

Specially considering that we have even less knowledge of Nextbox/PS4;

If the Jaguar rumors are true, some devs will probably run into the exact same issues porting their engines.

So by your saying Vita has 640MB? Don't confuse Vram with normal ram.

The 2GB is all "normal" RAM, not VRAM. Wii U, like 360, doesn't have dedicated VRAM.

 

[walking fiend]

Ok, some basics:

- I consider a CPU "weak" for a 2012 console if it's not significantly faster (say, at least three times as fast overall) as the CPU in the 2005 Xbox360 (Xenon).
- If that were the case, then we wouldn't have every developer working on Wii U complaining about CPU performance.
- We also know that the Wii U CPU is about 1/10 to 1/4 as fast as a 2009 PC CPU in one particular benchmark.

This is enough evidence for me to consider the CPU "weak", until convinced otherwise.

Define significantly faster; is 2x current gen significantly faster? Cause I would say being 2x more powerful is a reasonable limit, considering the amount of RAM.

As I said before, the CPU is powerful enough if it doesn't become a bottleneck for the rest of the system. For what we know, Wii U may be designed in a way to relegate some functions normally performed by CPUs last gen to its GPGPU.

 

[Perkel]

If the Jaguar rumors are true, some devs will probably run into the exact same issues porting their engines.



The 2GB is all "normal" RAM, not VRAM. Wii U, like 360, doesn't have dedicated VRAM.

I don't think you know what are you saying.

 

[Durante]

Define significantly faster; is 2x current gen significantly faster?

That's the first thing I did in my post.

As I said before, the CPU is powerful enough if it doesn't become a bottleneck for the rest of the system. For what we know, Wii U may be designed in a way to relegate some functions normally performed by CPUs last gen to its GPGPU.

That may be true, but it doesn't make it's CPU not weak. It may reduce the impact of it being weak.

If the Jaguar rumors are true, some devs will probably run into the exact same issues porting their engines.

Why would they? A Jaguar core is much better than Xenon in IPC and branching performance (just like the Wii U CPU), and unlike the Wii U those other consoles will likely have the necessary core count and clock speed to back it up.

 

[onQ123]

Yes, because you're supposed to run AI on the GPU.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=42142347&postcount=2837

That's what I was saying about a week ago.

 

[Haunted]

walking fiend fighting the good fight.

 

[Dragon]

Hey guys.

Nintendo will make beautiful games on the system.

Some third parties will as well.

Some other third parties will struggle.

Why bother spinning either way?

 

[donny2112]

Sure, in the same way that New York is midway between Miami and Boston.

Good analogy considering I said that Wii U was between PS360 gen and mid-way to PS480 gen meaning that it is at most mid-way to PS480 gen. New York being much closer Boston than Miami would be more like 1.1 of the way, which isn't a bad guess on where Wii U falls between the two.

Spoiler

You read my statement wrong.

 

[wsippel]

I never said it's "shit", I said it's "weak". And Cell is of course an outlier in terms of peak performance, that's why it makes more sense to compare to Xenon, which seems much closer to the Wii U CPU.

Xenon is also still quite impressive even by todays standards when it comes to single precision FP. As far as I remember, Xenon can handle twice as many floating point operations per core and cycle as Nehalem, which means that due to the high clock, it's still up there with a top of the line i7 for certain workloads. The IPC in general is complete ass, though.

 

[walking fiend]

That's the first thing I did in my post.

That may be true, but it doesn't make it's CPU not weak. It may reduce the impact of it being weak.

We all know that 'Wii U' in general is weak [by your definition of not being significantly more powerful than current gen]; what we don't know, is that if the CPU will be a bottleneck for the system.

walking fiend fighting the good fight.

Fighting a boring fight;

honestly, it's clear as day to me that most people claiming stuff about how powerful Wii U is without adding a high amount of uncertainty [like being 50%-150% off], is people being biased/arguing for the sake of it.

 

[Vic]

Seems a bit weird to make these examples of using PS360's strengths, considering how long PS2/PSP/Wii kept getting versions of these games.

Again, the issue could simply be that PS3 optimized code doesn't play well with the Wii U.

 

[Thunder Monkey]

Sure, in the same way that New York is midway between Miami and Boston.

We really don't have a ton of evidence to draw any conclusion on where things are.

Well we can come up with a general gist of where it lines up with Sony's Orbis specifications. And I wouldn't put it at midway between if those original specs line up with final. Orbis would have 2-4x the RAM, a GPU 3-5x faster (depending on 320gigaflop WiiU GPU or 640.) Closer to a 3rd of the way to Orbis. Potentially less.

 

[mbmonk]

Are all of you "clock speed doesn't matter, out-of-order, they don't know how to use it effectively" people aware that it is usually much easier to extract perfromance from an out-of-order architecture than an in-order architecture? (Do you even know what OOE is?)

Agreed. Thanks for posting this.

 

[Mihael Mello Keehl]

walking fiend fighting the good fight.

lol its like a show aint it?

 

[wsippel]

I don't think you know what are you saying.

I'm pretty sure I do.

 

[Perkel]

However, this article is implying that Wii U CPU is a bottleneck for the system.

Because that is what you get when you take slow CPU and fast GPU a bottleneck.
GPU will be waiting for CPU.

Same was with PS3 it has amazing CPU and so good GPU. a bottleneck

 

[Zarx]

"The Wii U hardware has a great architecture and, most importantly, it is easy for developers to utilise its power. For instance, we have a very action-heavy game with literally thousands of animated objects, but had no problems rendering the complete gameworld, twice, for the Wii U controller display in two-player mode."
http://digi.vg/topics/214723/shinen...etro-wii-games-in-hd-would-look-better-than-m

Thousands of animated objects? No problems rendering world twice? Easy to utilize it's power? What is this developer doing differently with Wii U that others are not? Could be a host of things! Point is, these types of statements are much better appreciated once the developer had enough time to utillize the strengths of the hardware.

Shin'en is a Nintendo second party dev they are comparing it to the Wii.

 

[Vic]

Videos of the game:

Demo: http://www.gametrailers.com/videos/54p2fs/warriors-orochi-3-hyper-tgs-2012--demo-gameplay--cam-
Duel-mode: http://www.gametrailers.com/videos/gevjp4/warriors-orochi-3-hyper-tgs-2012--duel-mode-gameplay--cam-

 

[Durante]

We all know that 'Wii U' in general is weak and not a graphical leap; what don't know, is that if the CPU will be a bottleneck for the system;

If we all know that, then why were you so offended when I called the CPU weak? Is it one of those things everyone knows but is not spoken of in polite company?

 

[wsippel]

Shin'en is a Nintendo second party dev they are comparing it to the Wii.

Shin'en isn't second party and they're not comparing the system to anything. It's just a general statement.

 

[walking fiend]

Because that is what you get when you take slow CPU and fast GPU a bottleneck.
GPU will be waiting for CPU.

Same was with PS3 it has amazing CPU and so good GPU. a bottleneck

I didn't ask for a definition of it; I said basing this on a basically vague and contradictory statements from musou producer is illogical.

If we all know that, then why were you so offended when I called the CPU weak? Is it one of those things everyone knows but is not spoken of in polite company?

Because that's not what this article is implying. Moreover, we don't all share your measure for being 'weak'; and also that you used word 'excuse'

lol its like a show aint it?

Honestly, I was banned for a month, so I guess I may be unconsciously compensating that lol