that's a pretty big disconnect. Having ROM file saved on your computer doesn't make you the producer of the game.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Eurogamer: Did Nintendo download a Mario ROM and sell it back to us?
- Thread starter allintospace
- Start date
that's a pretty big disconnect. Having ROM file saved on your computer doesn't make you the producer of the game.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
If a movie company decided to sell consumers a pirated copy of their movie, recorded off a cellphone, would you guys be ok with it? After all its their property theyre selling to you.
Yes, this is exactly the same thing.
boondock18
Member
Good for them.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
I mean nintendo is selling you a pirated copy and people are ok with it just because its their ip.
Movie companies can make a killing.
So ... do any other NES Virtual Console games on Wii have that iNES header in them? Do all of them have that header? Do the NES games on the Wii U and 3DS Virtual Consoles have the header as well?
I want to know these things.
Also, I'd argue that the guy who originally came up with the iNES format and method of emulation could have a legal case against Nintendo here. Yes, he doesn't own the games' code, but he does own his programming work in creating the emulator and the file format (which is what left the iNES header in that Super Mario Bros. ROM), and Nintendo has profited off of his work. Nintendo owes him a cut of that pie as well as punitive damages, I'd imagine.
I want to know these things.
Also, I'd argue that the guy who originally came up with the iNES format and method of emulation could have a legal case against Nintendo here. Yes, he doesn't own the games' code, but he does own his programming work in creating the emulator and the file format (which is what left the iNES header in that Super Mario Bros. ROM), and Nintendo has profited off of his work. Nintendo owes him a cut of that pie as well as punitive damages, I'd imagine.
What we are paying for is the IP Nintendo created and the gameplay within it. I would understand the issue if Nintendo was re-selling Super Mario hacks or levelpacks or something, but this is just laziness of one of the employees. It's not the best thing to do, but it may indeed be easier to take that instead of running around and getting 30 pieces of paper stamped before dumping the game.
If the quality of the movie was like it was recorded on a cellphone I'd ask for a refund regardless of how it happened. If it was exactly the same, which of course it wouldn't be, I wouldn't care.
It really does highlight the asinine nature of it all.
Obviously you have IP and companies on this stuff and their rights.
But living in a world where companies are selling us files of old games from decades ago, which any teenager worth his salt already has the whole library for the system of... it's something else.
I still buy virtual console games and such, but the humor of it all isn't lost on me as I realize all the roms I got when I was like 13 and just fucking around.
Obviously you have IP and companies on this stuff and their rights.
But living in a world where companies are selling us files of old games from decades ago, which any teenager worth his salt already has the whole library for the system of... it's something else.
I still buy virtual console games and such, but the humor of it all isn't lost on me as I realize all the roms I got when I was like 13 and just fucking around.
Like the hat?
Banned
I'd be OK with it. I wouldn't buy it and I doubt anyone else would, but whatever. Their choice.
Starwolf_UK
Member
Curious thing. Has anyone written an NES emulator that doesn't use iNES headers and instead uses chip by chip dumps of NES roms?
I know there are three ROMs on VC that I can say with 100% certainty Nintendo didn't download (or Nintendo are time travelers) though two are hacks. The hack of Donkey Kong with the missing level added, the hack of Super Mario Advance 4 adding the e-Reader content and the European version of Drill Dozer (completed but unreleased probably because rumble carts).
I know there are three ROMs on VC that I can say with 100% certainty Nintendo didn't download (or Nintendo are time travelers) though two are hacks. The hack of Donkey Kong with the missing level added, the hack of Super Mario Advance 4 adding the e-Reader content and the European version of Drill Dozer (completed but unreleased probably because rumble carts).
What is odd with it being SEGA is they seem to have access to a lot of stuff. One of the Sega smash collections they put the wrong version of The Revenge of Shinobi on it instead putting on an unreleased prototype version...and nobody noticed for about 10 yearsIt was actually Streets of Rage 2, but yep! And it was hilarious!
I forgot all movies looked like pirated copies, recorded off a cellphones.
No, people are OK with it because a ROM is a ROM, it's a dump of the game, while a cellphone recording of a movie is... well, a piece of shit.
People are also OK with it, because yes, they own the property, so they have the legal right to do so. To the consumer, it makes zero difference.
Elaugaufein
Member
There's also terrifyingly pedantic good dump lists including check sums for most old games so it'd take about 15 seconds to verify it's not edited.
March of the Crabs
Member
This is astoundingly dumb. There is no comparison here.
Spiral Insanity
Banned
What do you expect?
What do you think PSN sells?
What do you think GOG sells?
What do you think Steam sells?
FILES! We are just downloading FILES. If it is a ROM or an ISO or a DMG or a ZIP, does it matter?
You are buying the ability to play the game on your device of choice. That's it! I don't care if you can download all NES games for free from a 700MB torrent and have access to every game possible on your HDD. That shouldn't have anything to do with the value proposition here.
It's like bitching at Valve or Playism because the Momodora on Steam is the same 50MB file I can download illegally.
Like the hat?
Banned
If you rip your own cartridges using one of the tools out there, does it dump it as a .nes file? Do those also add in this Ines header? I haven't ripped anything myself or else i would check.
I don't know why "recorded off a cellphone" is in there, it makes this an invalid comparison. It's more like if a movie had a rerelease made from a disc image of the Blu-Ray from a torrent site (don't think anyone actually distributes those, but whatever).
No one's talking about lost quality, there is no quality lost in this case.
JetSetRadio
Banned
This is awesome.
Diablohead
Member
I don't have a problem with it if the game itself is 100% the same but I do find it weird that nintendo don't seem to have a master rom collection, or if they do they never seem to use it.
It's a good point. Though what is the license on the .NES format? I couldn't find it. Is it free software, or something else?
This post really shows just how far people will go to defend their favorite brands for.....some reason.
Again this is just making it worse for the people who actually purchase these things legally. Sure it might run and look worse on the VC vs a PC emulator and you don't have as many options, but at least you could feel like you're playing a decent Nintendo approved version. NOPE! It's just the same ROM that you can download and play on your PC already that Nintendo has probably charged you 2 or 3 times for already.
Hey also does this mean since we paid for this exact ROM file we can legally download it now?
Again this is just making it worse for the people who actually purchase these things legally. Sure it might run and look worse on the VC vs a PC emulator and you don't have as many options, but at least you could feel like you're playing a decent Nintendo approved version. NOPE! It's just the same ROM that you can download and play on your PC already that Nintendo has probably charged you 2 or 3 times for already.
Hey also does this mean since we paid for this exact ROM file we can legally download it now?
Starwolf_UK
Member
Isn't it obvious? They buy them out:
Morally yes legally no. But why not just extract if it is the exact same thing (which is also legally no but EULA telling you not to is non-binding) and cut off some middle man profiting off ads.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
hemo memo
Gold Member
Isn't it obvious? They buy them out:
But aren't they this way directly supporting piracy?
FairFriend
Member
finally some sense in this thread
Nintendo ain't opening up shit, it's standard practice in the ROM rerelease business. Some versions of the Taito Legends compilations used MAME roms and the NeoGeo games sold on Humble Bundle were gotten from torents
LambdaTeos
Member
well, the dumped rom the pirate website had was dumped from an official release, If they did, they would just have to verify it for modifications, but if it´s the exact same copy with no modification then I don´t see the issue
hypocritical? yes, it might be
sometimes is not about defending a brand in specific you know?
TylerDurden4321
Member
Even if you say "hey it's their IP, for them it's not illegal to download a pirated copy", then still... common, Nintendo then still(!) profited off the people who put in the work making an emulation standard and extracting the content off the cartridges - the same people they demonize so much. It is hypocritical in that way at the very least.
I like what the emulation scene does, I don't like piracy however. Having worked in the video game industry for a long time, I am of a different opinion on piracy than many on these forums I guess.
It's probably covered under fair use, in which case, no one can use it to make money without the creator's permission.
They're using piracy, they're not supporting it.
I have watched that Video and to me it seems that Nintendo just uses the .NES Rom-Mapping format but there is no hard proof of them using a third-party dumped ROM. Also the quoted Video snipped from the GDC is pretty cringeworthy, since in a developer conference you should promote DRY/KISS principles, not ridiculing Nintendo for following those "do not reinvent the wheel" principles.
But emulation and piracy are the same thing, at least to Nintendo.
Realistically, you can't have one without the other.
I get what you are saying, I really do. But in practice it absolutely does change the value proposition. Especially for something like an NES game. The simplicity of getting and playing the files is outrageous. In a matter of minutes I could have access to the whole NES library on my phone, or I can wait a few years for Nintendo to maybe, sell some of them to me, over the course of a few years at 5 bucks a pop.
Its a losing battle, and they will continue to lose, as will all game makers over time, as the tech gets better and better and easier to steal.
I don't know what the solution to it all is, but its not a problem that goes away by saying "do whats right, pay for content"
Such is the conundrum. I do like how much of the current emulation work is done in such a way that doesn't make piracy easy. But you get the benefit of emulation.
Dreams-Visions
Member
Thanks, preservationists!
By the way, this has been known for ages (and is relatively common with old re-releases) and simplifying this as "they just downloaded a ROM and sold it back" is simply wrong, as every VC title they sell is the ROM and the emulator in a package. The emulators are (or were in the Wii, I don't know about Wii U or 3DS, but it's likely the same) "tailor fitted" for each ROM and many games have been altered to fix/change things, not to mention tested in QA.
Also, afaik, existing ROM dumpers automatically include such headers in the ROMs, although I'm not sure as I'm not an expert on this. Nintendo either downloaded the ROMs or dumped them using an already existing dumper instead of making their own.
Of course, the irony/hypocrisy is palpable.
Also, afaik, existing ROM dumpers automatically include such headers in the ROMs, although I'm not sure as I'm not an expert on this. Nintendo either downloaded the ROMs or dumped them using an already existing dumper instead of making their own.
Of course, the irony/hypocrisy is palpable.
Spiral Insanity
Banned
I disagree, because in a matter of minutes you could have hundreds of DS games, music, movie files... anything really. Data is just data, and with my bandwith I can download 40GB of data in less than an hour.
It doesn't change the value proposition based on how easy it is to find something illegally, or how small the filesize is.
Imagine the outrage threads we would get when people catch wind of digital books that sell for $9.99 or upwards, but end up just being a 100kb .epub file. How dare they!
There is no solution to this, but it isn't a problem either. Illegal alternatives are not going to go anywhere. It doesn't affect some people. I personally love emulation (MAME, for example) and it was a big part of my youth, but I prefer the legal, clean method of buying them on Virtual Console. I bought every Super Nintendo game that is available on n3DS for example. It is much more appealing to me than running SNES9X.
The one problem is Nintendo's strategy and efficiency in realizing VC.. the jury is out on what they will end up doing for Switch. Having proper online play would indeed add to the value proposition, but I'm expecting them to fuck it up.
hemo memo
Gold Member
Giving money to software pirates is not supporting piracy?
LukasTaves
Member
They could hash check the roms, but that would require then to have official roms, in which case it wouldn't make sense to use the ones downloaded anyway lol
Handy Fake
Member
Jim Sterling will enjoy this.
It does though.
Same as libraries change the value proposition for buying books. Same as ebooks change the value proposition for buying expensive physical books (bit different now that ebooks rose in price)
Sad reality is these companies are competing with the ease and convenience and value of piracy and losing.
They are doing a poor job of it. The virtual console looks ridiculous when I'm waiting to be able to play games that 13 year old me was easily playing years ago.
Nintendo and Virtual Console is an example of a company doing it especially poorly.
Better example is Sony, I've bought a lot of games for my Vita that are surely easily pirate-able, but Sony put them out in enough abundance with enough speed that its more convenient.
We all know why people pirate, its not as if the sole reason people pirate is "im a thieving scum bag"
If you love to play games and the choice is "Play every game ever right now" or "wait a year to slowly be able to buy 5 of them for 5-10 bucks a pop" its pretty easy to see why people pirate.
Companies are stupid to ignore it and should be increasing the value proposition.
Teletraan1
Banned
Why would they need to do this? Couldn't they just rip a cart? They must have a nes cart around somewhere. The materials to do this would have cost less than $50 even in the worst case scenario. Isn't a Kazzo like $20-25?