gamerforever
Banned
I still don't think anyone will release an upgraded console. Maybe slimmer, with 4k capabilities, but no chance of better hardware. Best way to destroy their fanbase overnight. Consoles aren't ipads!
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Eurogamer: Independently confirms source that the PS4.5 is real, referred as PS 4K
- Thread starter Volotaire
- Start date
Two VR hardware profiles for devs to target is a bad move. It's not as if they will leave the "old" ps4's unable to play the VR games. They have to make the game playable on those too. So the extra power doesn't help out the devs in anyway. It just brings them extra work if they want to make use of the new PS4. If they don't use it, than the new hardware is useless.
I'm against PS4K if it brings extra performance for gaming that is not a generational leap. 4K media is something Sony should invest in, mid-cycle.
That New 3DS though....
This is happening because technology advancements allowed it to happen with thedie shrink & new generation of hardware it's not happening because Sony wants to sell a high end PS4.
Sony is in a good position right now with the PS4 selling so fast & getting into people's homes & most of the sells will come from people who don't really care about this extra power. This SKU will just keep anyone else from being able to step in & take that position & it also put them in a place where they can release a PSVR later that support higher resolution down the road so they can hold on to that market if it succeed.
Sony is trying to get into as many homes as possible & a $500 PS4 doesn't help that in anyway & if these consoles start setting on the self it's going to slowdown production.
PS4.5 allows them to keep the $349 - $399 price while using the cheaper parts that come from slimming down the console.
Just read basics of coordinate systems and you are done.
http://learnopengl.com/#!Getting-started/Coordinate-Systems
http://www.scratchapixel.com/lesson...endering-3d-scene-overview/visibility-problem
Basically you give different sized render target and rest is automatic.
The method he describes is not the most feasible thing in most cases. (From new patent.)
bitbydeath
Member
It'll all depend on this then, I suspect they are doing this because this is the year of 4K and they want to Trojan horse it in Playstation like they do with other consumer electronic devices they are heavily involved with.
AFAIK people are rather overstating "Polaris". It's simply a GCN 1.3 chip, it's not a major architectural update per-se.
FreedomFighter
Member
Wow. Good show, man.
Also, it's crazy how rude and douchey some Gaffers can be. That first page is brutal. Wall of shame unto itself. Bump that thread once this is all confirmed.
Yeah, that's terrible. Would love some of those people to explain their attitude now before the crow is served.
/checks to make sure I wasn't one of those people...
Why would there be two profiles? Write for the standard console, with inbuilt hardware detection & performance scaling (as happens on PCs with the recommended settings thing) to detect & take advantage of a PS4K.
If it can mean fewer games relying on reprojection to get to 120fps, or more running at native 90fps with better graphics & effects, bring it on.
How? everyone who has a PS4 still will have the same games & enjoy them as they would without this 4K PS4.
You say "Consoles aren't ipads" but have you looked at all the things consoles do now? they are multimedia computers for the living room & they are mostly the same as ipads but with a different interface.
I don't think devs have to do anything for the new hardware to render at 4K.
jeff_rigby
Banned
One last time to inject some facts:
4K media is a function of the PS4's Southbridge ARM SoC as the Media TEE. Southbridge already has it's second version and if the first version didn't support HEVC or HDCP then the second version of the PS4 with a new Southbridge and HDMI chip surely could. It is my belief and I've supported it with proofs that the Launch version of the PS4 can support UHD Blu-ray just as the XB1 as mentioned by the Microsoft.VP at Launch.
In any case 4K MEDIA support is not a reason for a PS4K. It is also not possible to support 4K gaming with anything other than a 2017-2018 14nm Zen + Polaris + HBM and this is supported by Eurogamer who believes the PS4K will only upscale to 4K and support some 4K features besides resolution possible to a limited extent with games and SOME HDMI 1.4 TVs.
So what is possible:
1) Releasing the APIs to use the Southbridge accelerators for Media, Games and VR. No cost to do this and overdue so I think this is a lock.
2) Using GDDR5X which can allow 2X the current memory bandwidth with slight changes to the APU. The APU can then be clocked higher but with out any new design efficiencies primarily dealing with how cache and memory is used, it will get too hot. New more efficient GPU designs are in Carizzo and are coming for Polaris so this is possible but I don't think likely for the following reasons:
a) What benefit? VR while the future with the PS5, it's a niche product for the PS4.
b) A PS5 is practically and economically possible sometime 2018 or slightly later. The PS4.5 or 4K will ship starting at the end of 2016 as a 2017 Platform so only one year later a PS5 is possible......
c) At this time in the life of the PS3 the goal was to reduce the price not increase the power or memory even though there were rumors of a PS3.5.
What's coming in the CE industry: Media and Casual games which do not require more GPU power.
Cloud Game and Media streaming Does not require a large GPU, Platform independent via a HTML5 browser.
VR and AR for primarily casual games (end of 2016) and about a year later VR & 3D immersive video from IPTV (Browser) and UHD Blu-ray (HEVC Multi-view with Depth map). VR for upper end with the games also supporting 3D TVs with less immersion.
UHD Blu-ray uses HTML5, HEVC and a modern blu-ray drive firmware updated to read Version 2 disks but requires a TEE (ARM Trustzone is in all AMD APUs, PS4 and XB1) and higher frame rate HDMI chip = HDMI 2 = 60 & 120 FPS (PS4 and any platform supporting VR has this)
Vidipath Media sharing between platforms in the home. Both Microsoft and Sony plan to support this but by it'self it has little impact on Sales.
UHD Blu-ray Digital bridge Media sharing in the home using Playready ND as an extension of Vidipath. Again Microsoft has documented Game Consoles supporting this and Sony has documented the Digital bridge using Playready ND. The Xtensa accelerators In both the XB1 and PS4 can support this. Combined with everything above we start to see an impact on sales.
Downloadable Security Scheme Just published by the FCC as a replacement for the Cable Card but won't be mandated for about 2 years just in time for IPTV direct from Cable Modems. ALL PS3, PS4 and XB1 consoles can be DVRs and Media hubs for the other Platforms in the home IN TWO YEARS.
Use of HEVC for IPTV 1080P and 4K delivered with HEVC Reduces impact of caps and reduces IPTV costs. This has a major impact on the industry which in turn gives the consumer more choices at lower costs.
ATSC 3 UHD Antenna TV This is the game changer and reaches recommend status at the end of 2016. It uses the same software stack that UHD IPTV and UHD Blu-ray uses which is HTML5. It's primary use will be to support 4 times as many HD TV channels and Mobile TV including Cell Phones which the FCC may mandate for Emergency alerts. Features include XTV, DRM, Non Realtime Transmission and multiple synced Transmission towers for smaller antenna and Mobile. DRM and a wider audience will have what were traditional Cable TV channels moving to antenna TV.
Cable cutters will increase and a need for internet supplied IPTV premium channels will increase. Most will have the 100 or so local Antenna supplied channels of which some will be DRM protected for pay channels and 10 or so Internet supplied premium channels.
A PC, PS4 or XB1 connected to a DLNA Network tuner and cable modem as a DVR media hub with UHD Blu-ray digital bridge will serve all platforms in the home including games. When? between the end of 2016 and 2020 at the latest where I think everyone can be sure a PS5 that plays 4K games will have already been released.
4K media is a function of the PS4's Southbridge ARM SoC as the Media TEE. Southbridge already has it's second version and if the first version didn't support HEVC or HDCP then the second version of the PS4 with a new Southbridge and HDMI chip surely could. It is my belief and I've supported it with proofs that the Launch version of the PS4 can support UHD Blu-ray just as the XB1 as mentioned by the Microsoft.VP at Launch.
In any case 4K MEDIA support is not a reason for a PS4K. It is also not possible to support 4K gaming with anything other than a 2017-2018 14nm Zen + Polaris + HBM and this is supported by Eurogamer who believes the PS4K will only upscale to 4K and support some 4K features besides resolution possible to a limited extent with games and SOME HDMI 1.4 TVs.
So what is possible:
1) Releasing the APIs to use the Southbridge accelerators for Media, Games and VR. No cost to do this and overdue so I think this is a lock.
2) Using GDDR5X which can allow 2X the current memory bandwidth with slight changes to the APU. The APU can then be clocked higher but with out any new design efficiencies primarily dealing with how cache and memory is used, it will get too hot. New more efficient GPU designs are in Carizzo and are coming for Polaris so this is possible but I don't think likely for the following reasons:
a) What benefit? VR while the future with the PS5, it's a niche product for the PS4.
b) A PS5 is practically and economically possible sometime 2018 or slightly later. The PS4.5 or 4K will ship starting at the end of 2016 as a 2017 Platform so only one year later a PS5 is possible......
c) At this time in the life of the PS3 the goal was to reduce the price not increase the power or memory even though there were rumors of a PS3.5.
What's coming in the CE industry: Media and Casual games which do not require more GPU power.
Cloud Game and Media streaming Does not require a large GPU, Platform independent via a HTML5 browser.
VR and AR for primarily casual games (end of 2016) and about a year later VR & 3D immersive video from IPTV (Browser) and UHD Blu-ray (HEVC Multi-view with Depth map). VR for upper end with the games also supporting 3D TVs with less immersion.
UHD Blu-ray uses HTML5, HEVC and a modern blu-ray drive firmware updated to read Version 2 disks but requires a TEE (ARM Trustzone is in all AMD APUs, PS4 and XB1) and higher frame rate HDMI chip = HDMI 2 = 60 & 120 FPS (PS4 and any platform supporting VR has this)
Vidipath Media sharing between platforms in the home. Both Microsoft and Sony plan to support this but by it'self it has little impact on Sales.
UHD Blu-ray Digital bridge Media sharing in the home using Playready ND as an extension of Vidipath. Again Microsoft has documented Game Consoles supporting this and Sony has documented the Digital bridge using Playready ND. The Xtensa accelerators In both the XB1 and PS4 can support this. Combined with everything above we start to see an impact on sales.
Downloadable Security Scheme Just published by the FCC as a replacement for the Cable Card but won't be mandated for about 2 years just in time for IPTV direct from Cable Modems. ALL PS3, PS4 and XB1 consoles can be DVRs and Media hubs for the other Platforms in the home IN TWO YEARS.
Use of HEVC for IPTV 1080P and 4K delivered with HEVC Reduces impact of caps and reduces IPTV costs. This has a major impact on the industry which in turn gives the consumer more choices at lower costs.
ATSC 3 UHD Antenna TV This is the game changer and reaches recommend status at the end of 2016. It uses the same software stack that UHD IPTV and UHD Blu-ray uses which is HTML5. It's primary use will be to support 4 times as many HD TV channels and Mobile TV including Cell Phones which the FCC may mandate for Emergency alerts. Features include XTV, DRM, Non Realtime Transmission and multiple synced Transmission towers for smaller antenna and Mobile. DRM and a wider audience will have what were traditional Cable TV channels moving to antenna TV.
Cable cutters will increase and a need for internet supplied IPTV premium channels will increase. Most will have the 100 or so local Antenna supplied channels of which some will be DRM protected for pay channels and 10 or so Internet supplied premium channels.
A PC, PS4 or XB1 connected to a DLNA Network tuner and cable modem as a DVR media hub with UHD Blu-ray digital bridge will serve all platforms in the home including games. When? between the end of 2016 and 2020 at the latest where I think everyone can be sure a PS5 that plays 4K games will have already been released.
I'm no games / graphics programmer, but I don't think that process can be automated in a way that adequately utilizes the new hardware. For example, to get from 60to90hz, you need a cpu with 50% increase in performance across the whole board, right down to cache miss penalties, to guarantee such a jump, before the dev having to re-tailor every bit of code to finish under 11hz instead of 16, and without the dev having to worry about two profiles.
That's some magic hardware and software layer to do that for the devs (if we're talking about native 4K renders and not scaling), even if we think the PS4K will come with a GPU 4x the performance of the current, that 4x increase in performance, like the cpu example, have to be across the board, for the dev to not worry about two profiles. (And I'm assuming future titles having to be programmed so that the render target sizes can be scaled accordingly, and nothing should be set in stone in the code, previous titles wouldn't be able to make use of the new resolutions without patches.)
The obvious problem for any PS4 upgrade is memory. Rendering at 1080/60 requires up to twice the bandwidth, and possibly a bit more cache & RAM. Rendering at 4k requires a lot more of everything (and potentially new, larger textures).
I think 1080/60 would be very achieveable, whereas 4k may be more of an advertising slogan.
BibiMaghoo
Member
Lol, Like how COD targeted last gen because of the greater number of consoles out there right?
Thanks for the links.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
Well unfortunately for them there would only be a couple million people getting a new Xbox 1.5, so......
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
DUDE!!!!!!! LOL! They were literally laughing at you saying "NO CHANCE"!!! You were very smart to see something like this 9 months early. Kudos to you!
Khalifa Jayy
Banned
It's going to be interesting to read game reviews:
PS4K: 1080p, 60FPS, Ultra textures, Ultra Res. Shadows. 16x MSAA, AF, etc.
PS4: 1080p, 30FPS, High Textures, High Res. Shadows, 4x MSAA, etc.
Or whatever the case will be. It's really going to make the current owners feel kind of crappy if -- and that's a big if -- they are really increasing the graphical horsepower of the console and not just focusing on 4K media output.
PS4K: 1080p, 60FPS, Ultra textures, Ultra Res. Shadows. 16x MSAA, AF, etc.
PS4: 1080p, 30FPS, High Textures, High Res. Shadows, 4x MSAA, etc.
Or whatever the case will be. It's really going to make the current owners feel kind of crappy if -- and that's a big if -- they are really increasing the graphical horsepower of the console and not just focusing on 4K media output.
Lys Skygge
Member
I would at least hope there would be some sort of upgrade program. Trade in your old PS4 for $200-$300 toward the PS4K.
Textures don't really have a meaningful impact on performance unless their size exceeds available video memory. The increased framerate is very likely though.
It's lighting, shadows and reflections that would likely see bumps with more GPU, not textures. And fps.
Craigslist and Ebay is that program.
This is a great example of why I put very little credence into any particular posts on GAF.
Negotiator
Member
Sometimes I feel like Jeff Rigby and onQ123 are the same person... 
Arun1910
Member
So this will be similar to PS3/PS4 cross platform games then in the sense that the PS4K will have slightly better performance for VR than the PS4...?
I see the point in it so VR runs better but it's unfair to old PS4 users who want VR too as the will know they will need a new console to get the best VR experience just 2-3 years after purchasing their PS4.
I see the point in it so VR runs better but it's unfair to old PS4 users who want VR too as the will know they will need a new console to get the best VR experience just 2-3 years after purchasing their PS4.
Sometimes I feel like Jeff Rigby and onQ123 are the same person...
We disagree about where the DPUs are, I say that it's on the APU with the CPU & GPU (Starsha) & he say it's on the South bridge ( Aeolia )
rahulkadukar
Member
This is perfect for people with 4k TV's as this would go at the same price as a dedicated 4k Blu ray player today but this also plays games.
They should market it as the cheapest 4k blu ray player
They should market it as the cheapest 4k blu ray player
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
Why doesn't anybody talk about what the price of the OG PS4 will be once this PS4K is released?
If this is a meaningful upgrade then the current PS4 has to be $250 in the stores right?
If this is a meaningful upgrade then the current PS4 has to be $250 in the stores right?
Negotiator
Member
You're goddamn right. Dedicated co-processors need direct access to the GDDR5 memory pool (that's where 15 min videos are recorded).
TheKastorian
Member
My guess is: Old PS4 at $299, PS4K at $399-$449
(if there is a $100 trade-in for an old PS4 that would be great but I doubt it)
OccamsLightsaber
Regularly boosts GAF member count to cry about 'right wing gaf' - Voter #3923781
Probably passed out in a pool for his own spooge.
Samurai G0SU
Member
You can buy 4k tvs under $500. So if anyone mentions they are too expensive, yeah no.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
There's no way there's just a $100 difference between these 2 consoles if the new one can really play 4K games.
The PS4K won't be natively rendering 4K video, just like the PSVR isn't natively rendering 120 frames per second.
PS4.5 will most likely have cheaper parts than the older PS4 but newer parts. it's a Slim they will be saying a lot of money making it or they wouldn't waste their time redesigning it.
PumpkinSpice
Banned
There are plenty of people happily playing on the Xbox One despite PS4 typically getting the better looking/performing versions of the same games. There are plenty of people happily playing on PS4 despite PC owners being able to play the multiplat games at a higher fidelity than them.
The only people this will really matter to are the small minority who live by DF comparison articles to make themselves feel better about their console of choice (and those who may have just bought the standard version at a similar pricepoint prior to the new one's release without any knowledge a newer one was coming). So yeah, I expect some complaints on gaf and on the internet, but the general population won't really care as long as games are being made for their console and are not becoming exclusive on the new one.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
Huh?! I thought the some games will be rendered at 120 fps in PSVR.
There's no way this is possible. I don't understand the economics of this at all. I won't accept that a PS4K that can run games naively at 4k resolutions can cost Sony less than the current PS4 after a redesign.
I said cheaper parts I didn't say that every thing will be cheaper
If PS4 was $399 at launch & it's $349 going close to it's 3rd year & this there is a die shrink for the slim it's going to be cheaper parts in this console.
ethomaz
Banned
It won't.
The APU alone will make it more expensive.
But Sony will waste way less R&D with PS4.5 than wasted with PS4... in this point PS4 was more expensive than PS4.5 to Sony.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
I guess what I'm trying to figure out is, are you guys saying that the days of a $199 console may be over?
Just because something is rendered at 120fps doesn't make it native.
Just a random exploration...
PS4 currently has ~270X level of performance [in reality it is bit below it because it has 2 less CUs and lower clocks, but architecture is the same]. This fits nicely with current state of things since PS4 is indeed there at 1080p30 in this particular game at great visual settings.
Now, if we can believe that Polaris is indeed 2.5x of the 28nm GCN, move to a 14nm APU would enable PS4K to remain at the same power level [even more if they adopt power levels of launch PS4] but gain tremendous rendering boost, more than FuryX! In this particular game it can achieve ~44fps at 4K when using good CPU [and no, we clearly don't need 4X GPU performance to jump from 1080p to 4K].
Of course, boosting GPU will help only in GPU-limited scenarios. To ensure that framerates go up for all games in all situations, they would need to boost CPU also. This is especially important for PSVR games that NEED to hit high [sometimes obscenely high] framerates, all the time.
PS4 currently has ~270X level of performance [in reality it is bit below it because it has 2 less CUs and lower clocks, but architecture is the same]. This fits nicely with current state of things since PS4 is indeed there at 1080p30 in this particular game at great visual settings.
Now, if we can believe that Polaris is indeed 2.5x of the 28nm GCN, move to a 14nm APU would enable PS4K to remain at the same power level [even more if they adopt power levels of launch PS4] but gain tremendous rendering boost, more than FuryX! In this particular game it can achieve ~44fps at 4K when using good CPU [and no, we clearly don't need 4X GPU performance to jump from 1080p to 4K].
Of course, boosting GPU will help only in GPU-limited scenarios. To ensure that framerates go up for all games in all situations, they would need to boost CPU also. This is especially important for PSVR games that NEED to hit high [sometimes obscenely high] framerates, all the time.
ethomaz
Banned
I guess PS4 can get there at the end of it life but I don't expect to go below that.
PS3 barely hit $199
ethomaz
Banned
If it is rendered at 120fps then it is native 120fps.
What PSVR will have are games rendered in 60fps retroprojected to 120fps.
Well there are 3 option to devs.
- 120fps rendered/native
- 90fps rendered/native
- 60fps rendered/native retroprojected to 120fps
90fps games don't reproject to 120fps, the display can run at 90Hz.
Since Sony/MS are purchasing APUs directly from factories and not from GPU companies, they are paying for the chip wafers and not for "performance levels of individual chips" [this situation happened with MS and Nvidia during Xbox1 years, MS purchased chips directly from Nvidia which caused issues]. At 14nm wafer size remains the same, but more smaller chips can be put in them. They are essentially paying [lets say $10K] per waffer, and then hoping that as much chips as possible are functional [rate of success is called chip yield].
http://images.books24x7.com/bookimages/id_13501/fig5-28.jpg [extreme example of same wafer error locations, but different number of working chips due to smaller chips]
What I want to say is, if Sony targets for the same ~350mm2 APU size but now done in 14nm tech, that APU will be MUCH more powerful and if yields are good it will cost THE SAME as current 28nm PS4 APU. Saying that the new APU will be more expensive may in fact not be true. It simply depends on number of wafers in parallel production, chip size, and yields.
IMO, they will go with smaller [~Polaris11 sized] 14nm chips [if they even intend to go with Polaris route].
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