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Eurogamer - 'Rare and the rise and Fall of Kinect'

SilentRob

Member
I feel like some people don't bother to actually read the article and instead only go after the bolded parts of the quotes - which is pretty much the reason these filtered quotes with filtered, bolded parts do a massive misservice to most articles. There's a reason articles have a certain length and that's because that length is required to give the reader all necessary information. Picking out a few parts and ignoring others (without any ill-will, mind you) doesn't actually help you understanding what the article is saying, it does pretty much the opposite.

Sucks that I have to counter this with pulling even more quotes out of the article, but that seems to be the only way:

Microsoft is commonly blamed for Rare's transformation into a so-called "casual" studio, but Price feels this is a step too far. "Phil Spencer taking the mantle of Xbox is one of the best things that could have happened for Rare," he comments. "Because he's always said to people at Rare [as general manager of Microsoft Studios], 'Do what you want to do and we'll back you,' and he's always stayed true to his word in that regard. It was people in Rare's management at the time who said: 'Well, Kinect is a great opportunity for the studio - go all in on it.' So when executives at Microsoft see that the management team are passionate about doing that, they back them. Microsoft to their credit did that, and perhaps the story online isn't quite reflective of the truth.

"Every company makes mistakes, and people forgive certain companies more than others. We all love Nintendo so much we can forgive them for whatever they do. We'll always forgive them, the day the next Zelda comes around. Everybody likes to create this narrative that Microsoft are evil, but that's not the case - they were very supportive. I guess there were a few people who have since left who thought: 'I wanted to be working on this game or my pet project, and I didn't get to.' And they've kind of painted a picture that it's all Microsoft's fault."

People in this thread are doing exactly what the interviewee of the article they are commenting on criticises and denies.
 
to be honest Rare are no longer the Rare we loved (Rareware?)

Getting excited for games now is like getting excited for a movie because it is made by Legendary pictures who did Nolans batman trilogy.. it does not mean anything.
 

Alx

Member
It's just too bad that MS has been completely reactive these last years, instead of leading.

Definitely. MS is interesting as a company when they're pushing for new ideas and technologies. With Xbox and 360 they set new standards (for better or worse) in online gaming, community features, digital markeplaces, achievements,... and also motion controls. They had a good base concept with the Xbox One despite the whole backlash, but if they drop it then the Xbox One will be a completely forgettable console in the end.
 
The number of games is a very interesting point. People say that Rare was really slow at development with delays etc., but when you put it like that...damn. That is a lot in 5 years.

And these games were polished as hell. Just take a list of the features in Perfect Dark (multiplayer). Some of these features were in no other games since then.
 

KORNdoggy

Member
the death of kinect freed rare. now they can get back to making actual games! which granted they have a pretty hit and miss track record with. but still. i'd rather they try a core game then be stuck making casual kinect crap.
 

daTRUballin

Member
Oh I was talking only from the perspective of a fan of those earlier failures, not from the Don Mattrick perspective.
Rare seized to be interesting to me when they went that route, that was the mistake in my eyes. And reading how they realised the limitations of the hardware they should have known what the future held for kinect in general, after the first wave of positive enthusiasm faded away it became clear that nobody would be able to make a game with kinect that resembles any game we expected at the time.
They should have abandoned it then and there, instead they doubled down on it with the XB1 kinect.

Yeah, I figured you were talking from the perspective of Rare's earlier games, but even then, you have to understand Rare would've obviously picked better sales over pleasing their fans. All of their Xbox/360 games either bombed or did only decently in sales. Their Kinect games, on the other hand, sold a ton. No matter what you think of those games.

The "Don Mattrick perspective" is obviously always going to be considered more important for Rare's 'well-being.' I'm willing to bet that if it wasn't for Kinect Sports, it's possible that Rare wouldn't even be around today.

to be honest Rare are no longer the Rare we loved (Rareware?)

Getting excited for games now is like getting excited for a movie because it is made by Legendary pictures who did Nolans batman trilogy.. it does not mean anything.

And? The people that work there now can't make something good? How would you know?
 
Don't get why people are defending Microsoft.

Fair enough if Rare were a one off, but I think everyone's forgetting that Ensemble and Lionhead met similar fates.
 
The "Don Mattrick perspective" is obviously always going to be considered more important for Rare's 'well-being.' I'm willing to bet that if it wasn't for Kinect Sports, it's possible that Rare wouldn't even be around today.

That could be true for the company name only though. Considering the lead people working on Kinect Sports are not even with Microsoft anymore.
 

Salty Hippo

Member
The guys at Team Dakota reached out to Rare with their Conker idea and Rare was cool with it. How are you going to blame Spencer for that?

It was actually Phil Spencer who forwarded the idea after receiving a tweet from a fan. Should the Head of Xbox, who has full command over Team Dakota, not be blamed for the ridiculous time/money allocation for that Conker project? Should he not be blamed for deciding to cocktease people at E3 only to sink the hearts of everyone who gives a shit about Conker immediately after with "lololol make you own!"? Should he not be blamed for, even after a super negative reaction, still allowing one of the worst pieces of software coded in recent gaming history to see the light of day and tarnish the Conker franchise forever?

I'll let you answer those questions.
 
to be honest Rare are no longer the Rare we loved (Rareware?)

Getting excited for games now is like getting excited for a movie because it is made by Legendary pictures who did Nolans batman trilogy.. it does not mean anything.

Yup. All the talent is now at Playtonic, clearly. Rare died when they left, clearly. It also died when Free Radical became a thing, clearly. Those two developers have proven to be the pinnacle of the industry, clearly.
 

Aureon

Please do not let me serve on a jury. I am actually a crazy person.
Kinect ended up being really underwhelming for me. So many ideas, so little actual implementations.
From Rare, of all people, i expected something... more surprising than "Wii Sports for Kinect".
I always thought Fru was the best idea that floated around for Kinect, but it seemingly failed to materialize.
 

Synth

Member
I'm a MASSIVE Rare fan and I love what they did with KI but even I know for a fact that Killer Instinct and Crackdown are not even on the same planet of the stuff Sony has been pulling. Come on, it's just not the same.

I'm not saying Spencer didn't take any action, just that most of what he's done so far has been stuff anyone with a tiny bit of good sense would have done as well. He made the console's perception go from 'utter shite' to 'alright'. I don't think that's enough. He should be blowing our minds considering the position Xbox is in this generation. But it looks like he is very satisfied with that distant 2nd place.

Project Spark, risky? That was barely a game, and was sent out to die. Does anyone even talk about it anymore? They clearly didn't invest enough in it. They almost never do unless it's a proven franchise. The Conker disgrace they pulled made me feel embarrassed of being a fan of Rare for the first time in my life. Absolute garbage and zero commitment or care for the IP. They dug the poor squirrel out of his grave, took a piss on his corpse and then buried him even deeper. I guess we can thank Spencer for that.

I agree that Sony has an easier task with some things, but if you're not willing to compete then why are you even in this industry? Sony gets a lot of japanese exclusives by default for absolute free, I'm sure if MS cared they could convince those devs to release the games (that aren't super niche of course) in the west, and it would not take a truckload of money to do it. They could have a support team to help with the porting or something. They should be committed and aware that the only thing that can make them gain some ground is the games library. A library that appeals to everyone, not just dudebros.

Backwards compatibility is nice and puts Sony and their shenanigans to shame. I'd say the consistent system updates and features are other great things about Xbox this gen. But let's face it, this stuff is never going to get me and many others to buy the system.

And it really was just Halo, Gears, Forza and Fable during the last 3 years of 360. I'm sorry, but I shouldn't even need to explain why the Kinect stuff doesn't or at least shouldn't count. Those games are all shit. I don't care what anyone says.

Out of the those 4 big main MS franchises I mentioned, I really like the first three, but it's been too long since that is almost literally ALL we get from their first/second party studios in terms of core games. There has been a slight bigger push this gen with KI, Max and Ori, but they are all small, low budget, low risk projects. Two years into the new gen and their AAA internal stuff continues to be those 3 or 4 franchises. It's just pathetic.

You mentioned The Coalition, which is a new studio that was never given a chance to make their own thing and were turned into a Gears factory. And Mojang, which was purchased with a very specific strategy in mind, almost as its own brand separate from Xbox. It's a very different beast than studios like 343, Turn 10, Rare and Lionhead. They don't make games, they just nurture Minecraft at this point. Minecraft serves to print its own money and as a marketing tool for Microsoft as a whole. I don't think these are the best examples of expansion to what I was refering (core games, new games), but ok.

Btw I just want to make it clear that there's no animosity whatsoever in this post. I actually consider you one of the best posters at Neogaf. For reals. :)

Hey, sorry for not responding earlier (your post came through at around 3am my time). I can definitely appreciate this post, even if there's obvious specifics we both disagree on. There's likely some disconnect as I was certainly never as large a Rare fan as you seem to be... but I definitely know how frustrating it can be when the studio that produced so much you loved changes beyond recognition. I'm a diehard Sega fan. :p

I definitely would consider Project Spark as risky... but that's the thing about risky ventures... they don't always work out. Project Spark was pushed quite heavily, being given substantial stage time at multiple gaming conference etc. If it seemed like it was "sent to die", this would be largely because it had already somewhat died in the extended beta period, which was a necessary step in order to build the community, and ensure the game launched with enough creations for non-creators to play. Project Spark's main issue is that unlike something like LittleBigPlanet or Mario Maker, it didn't contain a game that could stand alone even without any community involvement. They attempted to provide this with the whole Heroes Quest stuff, but it honestly wasn't very good. So the game ended up being filled with whole bunch of creators, but very little player to actually play their creations... which eventually lead to a collapse in the creators' motivations. It wasn't through lack of effort or investment. Some things simply don't work out, if they always did it wouldn't be a risk (see also PlayStation Home).

It's not they're not trying to compete.. it's that Sony are too. It's not like because things are easier for Sony in regards to Japanese deals, they've decided to sit back and do nothing.. they're still actively competing to attract them. If both make a similar amount of effort, then the results will still have a huge disparity. Sure, they could go the Sega route and basically provide the ports to games they'd otherwise miss themselves, but the Xbox division is still a business unit, and writing constant blank cheques isn't a realistic option. This is again something that they've already had experience with in the past (with Windows Phone/Store apps). It actually incentivized some developers that would otherwise have ported to the platform to hold out in the hope of extracting the additional resources that Microsoft has proven to provide if they feel they need you. You end up having to pay for pretty much everything, and the support will stop dead the moment you cease to. The games that have Western appeal typically do come to the Xbox. It's the niche games that are skipping it, because the global sales won't justify the port. If MS were to pay for a port of a Yakuza game to the Xbox, it would sell worse than the already dismal global sales of the franchise... whilst also selling essentially zero copies in Japan itself.. the only market that really justifies its existence. We're talking the sorts of games where the costs of adding English subtitles may be deemed not to be worthwhile on PlayStation... so you can imagine what the balance for something like that looks like for a full port to a smaller global audience.

Two years into the new gen and we've had Ryse, Zoo Tycoon, Kinect Sports Rivals, Project Spark, Sunset Overdrive etc, with stuff like Crackdown, Quantum Break, Scalebound, and Sea of Thieves upcoming. Granted these aren't all developed internally.. but I'm not really sure why that distinction matters to someone simply looking to play games. Saying their biggest 3 or 4 IPs all we see in regards to AAA development from their first/second party studios isn't something I can really agree with... and even in the cases where its true, I think it loses a lot of meaning when something like Forza Horizon could just as easily been named Starling Horizon Racer, and Fable Legends and Halo Wars share basically nothing beyond their setting with previous games. Again though, I'm not saying that this represents a factually stellar amount of variety.. but I do think the same 3 or 4 franchise does count as factually incorrect. I also agree with PanicFreak in that whilst you can definitely differentiate between different types of games, when talking about was is (and isn't) being created, how much you like the products doesn't dictate whether or not they count. Those games were made, and in the case of something like Kinect Sports, was a larger project than basically anything else they'd ever worked on... they certainly count.

In general, I don't really disagree with your criticisms, even if I do disagree with how easily you think they can be fixed.. and there are areas (like the parity clause) that I do think they're simply just dropping the ball on. The reason I was somewhat taken aback by your first post was because it came across as less "ok performance, must try harder", and more "he got there and started fucking everything up", lol. But thanks for taking the time to respond in more detail, and for being respectful or my own disagreements. It's far more than I tend to expect. So thanks.
 

Salty Hippo

Member
Hey, sorry for not responding earlier (your post came through at around 3am my time). I can definitely appreciate this post, even if there's obvious specifics we both disagree on. There's likely some disconnect as I was certainly never as large a Rare fan as you seem to be... but I definitely know how frustrating it can be when the studio that produced so much you loved changes beyond recognition. I'm a diehard Sega fan. :p

I definitely would consider Project Spark as risky... but that's the thing about risky ventures... they don't always work out. Project Spark was pushed quite heavily, being given substantial stage time at multiple gaming conference etc. If it seemed like it was "sent to die", this would be largely because it had already somewhat died in the extended beta period, which was a necessary step in order to build the community, and ensure the game launched with enough creations for non-creators to play. Project Spark's main issue is that unlike something like LittleBigPlanet or Mario Maker, it didn't contain a game that could stand alone even without any community involvement. They attempted to provide this with the whole Heroes Quest stuff, but it honestly wasn't very good. So the game ended up being filled with whole bunch of creators, but very little player to actually play their creations... which eventually lead to a collapse in the creators' motivations. It wasn't through lack of effort or investment. Some things simply don't work out, if they always did it wouldn't be a risk (see also PlayStation Home).

It's not they're not trying to compete.. it's that Sony are too. It's not like because things are easier for Sony in regards to Japanese deals, they've decided to sit back and do nothing.. they're still actively competing to attract them. If both make a similar amount of effort, then the results will still have a huge disparity. Sure, they could go the Sega route and basically provide the ports to games they'd otherwise miss themselves, but the Xbox division is still a business unit, and writing constant blank cheques isn't a realistic option. This is again something that they've already had experience with in the past (with Windows Phone/Store apps). It actually incentivized some developers that would otherwise have ported to the platform to hold out in the hope of extracting the additional resources that Microsoft has proven to provide if they feel they need you. You end up having to pay for pretty much everything, and the support will stop dead the moment you cease to. The games that have Western appeal typically do come to the Xbox. It's the niche games that are skipping it, because the global sales won't justify the port. If MS were to pay for a port of a Yakuza game to the Xbox, it would sell worse than the already dismal global sales of the franchise... whilst also selling essentially zero copies in Japan itself.. the only market that really justifies its existence. We're talking the sorts of games where the costs of adding English subtitles may be deemed not to be worthwhile on PlayStation... so you can imagine what the balance for something like that looks like for a full port to a smaller global audience.

Two years into the new gen and we've had Ryse, Zoo Tycoon, Kinect Sports Rivals, Project Spark, Sunset Overdrive etc, with stuff like Crackdown, Quantum Break, Scalebound, and Sea of Thieves upcoming. Granted these aren't all developed internally.. but I'm not really sure why that distinction matters to someone simply looking to play games. Saying their biggest 3 or 4 IPs all we see in regards to AAA development from their first/second party studios isn't something I can really agree with... and even in the cases where its true, I think it loses a lot of meaning when something like Forza Horizon could just as easily been named Starling Horizon Racer, and Fable Legends and Halo Wars share basically nothing beyond their setting with previous games. Again though, I'm not saying that this represents a factually stellar amount of variety.. but I do think the same 3 or 4 franchise does count as factually incorrect. I also agree with PanicFreak in that whilst you can definitely differentiate between different types of games, when talking about was is (and isn't) being created, how much you like the products doesn't dictate whether or not they count. Those games were made, and in the case of something like Kinect Sports, was a larger project than basically anything else they'd ever worked on... they certainly count.

In general, I don't really disagree with your criticisms, even if I do disagree with how easily you think they can be fixed.. and there are areas (like the parity clause) that I do think they're simply just dropping the ball on. The reason I was somewhat taken aback by your first post was because it came across as less "ok performance, must try harder", and more "he got there and started fucking everything up", lol. But thanks for taking the time to respond in more detail, and for being respectful or my own disagreements. It's far more than I tend to expect. So thanks.

Fair points. Just a couple of things.

Of course a port from a series that had over 5 iterations exclusively on PS like Yakuza doesn't make any sense. But I don't think games like Dragon Quest XI, FF7 Remake or whatever Kojima will be producing are that niche in the west. Yet no efforts were made. And a game like Ni-Oh looks just too cool not to be marketable over here. I agree it's not easy for them, but players don't care if it's easy or not. You want to expand your audience, you need games like that. You need to cover more genres. Greenlight a Banjo game and be smart about the budget. Work to grow the franchise's popularity with quality games. Things don't happen overnight. Sony didn't get their reputation of encouraging risk and creativity suddenly out of nowhere. Even if you just break even every time with 3 quality Banjo games in a row it's still worth it. It doesn't have to be Banjo, it can be any IP that will generate some goodwill for them. But MS has this need of immediate huge profits, otherwise the game's future is doomed. KI is the exception, and we'll see if Ori will be continued as a franchise, but it's still very far from enough imo.

The other thing is that what I mean about first/second party is either internal games or external games where you own the IP. Sunset looks fantastic, but as it is it's not a big reason to buy the system because you can never be sure if it'll come out on other platforms. Same thing for Titanfall, Ryse and others. These games are half measures to build the console's library, just like the RoTR moneyhat. Look at the contrast when it's Sony moneyhatting SFV. They say clearly with every word that the game will only ever be released on PS4. That forces fans of Street Fighter to buy the console, there's no way around it.

I'm glad MS will start to focus on new IP that they own from 2016 onwards. That might be the biggest props I can give Spencer on his reign so far, as it was clearly his decision. But it started too late and the results are still not here. Hopefully those games will all be very good and MS will have a huge E3 in terms of game announcements. If that happens the guy will prove himself as a saviour and I'll become a believer. Don't have a lot of faith in it, though. I've been getting burnt by the Xbox division ever since Peter Moore bailed and my favorite studio was, like you said, disfigured. But time will tell, and I'd love to be proven wrong.
 

daTRUballin

Member
That could be true for the company name only though. Considering the lead people working on Kinect Sports are not even with Microsoft anymore.

What are you talking about? Whether the Kinect Sports people are still there or not doesn't really matter. The studio as a whole is still around today. Probably due to Kinect Sport's success.

Yup. All the talent is now at Playtonic, clearly. Rare died when they left, clearly. It also died when Free Radical became a thing, clearly. Those two developers have proven to be the pinnacle of the industry, clearly.

Yep. Apparently, when every single group of people leave Rare, it dies. Poor Rare. When the Free Radical guys left, they died. When the Stamper brothers left, they died again. When the Playtonic guys left, they died yet again. You've gotta feel for them. Dying over and over again isn't easy!

I guess Naughty Dog and Retro Studios are dead as well since people keep on leaving them. Oh, the horror.
 

Synth

Member
Fair points. Just a couple of things.

Of course a port from a series that had over 5 iterations exclusively on PS like Yakuza doesn't make any sense. But I don't think games like Dragon Quest XI, FF7 Remake or whatever Kojima will be producing are that niche in the west. Yet no efforts were made. And a game like Ni-Oh looks just too cool not to be marketable over here. I agree it's not easy for them, but players don't care if it's easy or not. You want to expand your audience, you need games like that. You need to cover more genres. Greenlight a Banjo game and be smart about the budget. Work to grow the franchise's popularity with quality games. Things don't happen overnight. Sony didn't get their reputation of encouraging risk and creativity suddenly out of nowhere. Even if you just break even every time with 3 quality Banjo games in a row it's still worth it. It doesn't have to be Banjo, it can be any IP that will generate some goodwill for them. But MS has this need of immediate huge profits, otherwise the game's future is doomed. KI is the exception, and we'll see if Ori will be continued as a franchise, but it's still very far from enough imo.

The other thing is that what I mean about first/second party is either internal games or external games where you own the IP. Sunset looks fantastic, but as it is it's not a big reason to buy the system because you can never be sure if it'll come out on other platforms. Same thing for Titanfall, Ryse and others. These games are half measures to build the console's library, just like the RoTR moneyhat. Look at the contrast when it's Sony moneyhatting SFV. They say clearly with every word that the game will only ever be released on PS4. That forces fans of Street Fighter to buy the console, there's no way around it.

I'm glad MS will start to focus on new IP that they own from 2016 onwards. That might be the biggest props I can give Spencer on his reign so far, as it was clearly his decision. But it started too late and the results are still not here. Hopefully those games will all be very good and MS will have a huge E3 in terms of game announcements. If that happens the guy will prove himself as a saviour and I'll become a believer. Don't have a lot of faith in it, though. I've been getting burnt by the Xbox division ever since Peter Moore bailed and my favorite studio was, like you said, disfigured. But time will tell, and I'd love to be proven wrong.

Yakuza may have had 5 entries for PlayStation, but it's not like Dragon Quest wouldn't be a similar case tbh... and is pretty niche outside of Japan too. It certainly shouldn't be compared with stuff like Final Fantasy. You're assuming MS is simply not trying, but there's not really much to suggest that, in the cases of stuff like FF7 Remake, and Kojima's next game, Sony has arrived at a deal with the respective parties, similar to how Sony couldn't simply pay to have Titanfall on PS4 once the deal is done. You simply wouldn't hear that MS tried and failed to get the game, and Sony won out... you'd just hear that Sony struck a deal with them. I'm also not sure why you cite a exclusive deal like Street Fighter V as being better than similar MS deals like Ryse, Dead Rising 3 or Titanfall (once it became exclusive)... in both scenarios you know you need the console (or a PC) to play it, and much like MS not owning the Titanfall IP, leaving people to possibly just wait for a Titanfall 2 or Dead Rising 4, Sony doesn't own the Street Fighter IP and so someone may decide to simply wait for a Street FIghter VI. They're basically identical situations, but you're making them sound worlds apart, like every deal is reminiscent of RoTR. And even that case has parallels... is FF7 Remake actually only coming to PS4? We only know that it's "first on PlayStation".

I understand that an end user typically doesn't care about the behind-the-scenes workings when it comes to choosing a console, and I'm not saying that because MS (or Phil) is trying, that people should treat that as if the actual results are equal... but when you're talking about the people that work there, and not simply the end product, then these considerations do become important.

I also do thing that "believe in Spencer" evangelism is also silly, and is pretty much the opposite end of the spectrum from "all words, no action". There are things he's done well, and things that are still kinda crap, but overall he's been doing at the very least a competent job at steering the division considering what he inherited.
 
These quotes stood out to me the most.

The first promotional videos of Kinect set player expectations unhelpfully high, wowing viewers with the prospect of fully motion-captured real-time kung-fu duels, and a racing sim a family can play from the sofa, with a second player serving as your pit crew. The Kinect Sports team were aghast. "Everybody thought 'oh, that's what it's going to be like!'" says Price. "And we were looking at it, thinking: 'Is it? Is it really?'"

With the second one it maybe got to the level of promise of the first one, technically," says Sutherland. "But by then we were promising more.

I still cannot believe how successful such a seemingly obviously BS advertising campaign was.

MS have done the same thing again with Hololens. Great technology, being sold based on capabilities that won't be possible until version 2 or later. But will they burn too many people before the technology can get there?
 
Rare was doomed the moment they moved to MS. The XBox empire was built and maintained by games like Halo, Splinter Cell, and Morrowind. No room for Rare's kiddy stuff, which probably seemed hard-edged and novel by the standards of their previous audience.
 

harSon

Banned
Honestly, the Kinect could have had sustainable staying power if Microsoft legitimately supported the damn thing. But they didn't. Peripherals of this nature require the platform holder to lead the way, but Microsoft simply didn't have the first party presence to make that happen.
 

daTRUballin

Member
Rare was doomed the moment they moved to MS. The XBox empire was built and maintained by games like Halo, Splinter Cell, and Morrowind. No room for Rare's kiddy stuff, which probably seemed hard-edged and novel by the standards of their previous audience.

You're right. Rare's games definitely didn't suit the Xbox audience, but the reason why MS bought Rare was that they would expand Microsoft's demographic by making those 'kiddy' games in the first place. That's why they've been making games like Kinect Sports, Viva Piñata, Banjo, etc ever since then.

It's sort of like what they did for Nintendo, but it was the opposite problem for Nintendo. They helped expand Nintendo's demographic beyond just the family audience by making games like Goldeneye, Killer Instinct, Conker, etc. Strangely enough, it seems like that plan worked out more for Nintendo than it did for MS lol (except for Kinect Sports and maybe the first Viva Piñata I guess).
 

Alx

Member
They pushed 25 million of it. These millions then ended up figuratively and literally collecting dust.

Pushing a product doesn't always result in big sales, like many failed ones could prove in the past. There's no reason to downplay the commercial success of kinect, not many peripherals can claim several million selling games. The consumer interest didn't last, but that is precisely the latter part in "rise and fall".
 
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