PanicFreak
Member
Wouldn't a depth sensing camera system like Kinect make VR better???
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Eurogamer - 'Rare and the rise and Fall of Kinect'
- Thread starter Neuromancer
- Start date
Wouldn't a depth sensing camera system like Kinect make VR better???
GeordieMark
Member
Anything more complicated wouldn't have worked anyway.
I've never believed any of the statements claiming that Microsoft has allowed Rare any freedom, so I'm totally biased and unsurprised approaching this article. It's just too hard to imagine that the company would make a major change in direction that is so unpopular with their fans and stick to it. Even Nintendo was releasing things like Twilight Princess and Mario Galaxy on the Wii.
I get why Rare went all in on Kinect. They were desperate for a hit, and thought that by being the premier Kinect studio that they could be at the forefront of a major gaming innovation. Still, it blows that as a traditional fan of the developer that they have been MIA for basically 7 years at this point because of Kinect. I really do wish that they had a second team making traditional teams like suggested in the below quote.
Huevos de Oro
Member
Imagine that Layton example with physical puzzles but with a third generation Kinect or some shit like that coupled to the VR hardware.
LordBaztion
Member
Do you expect VR to be a hit in the casual market?
Again, their previous fanbase were mostly inaccessible (huge overlap with Nintendo themselves). They created games for that audience that were super unpopular with their new userbase. They changed direction and immediately outsold pretty much everything they had ever worked on previously, Nintendo or not, even causing the sales of the console itself to jump noticeably... can you really not see why they'd think it was worth sticking with that at the time?
Darth Smurf X
Member
This is embarrassing to admit, but... here goes...
I remember loving the Kinect for the first few months. I bought Dance Central, Child of Eden, Kinect Sports, The Gunstringer, UFC's workout game, Ubisoft's workout game, Fruit Ninja, Dance Central 2, and 3 and I remember starting to think about what a chore it was to play many of those games. Especially Child of Eden and Gunstringer. I had to grab a kitchen chair and put it in front of my coffee table for me to sit on, just for the Kinect to see me clearly and then my arms would tire out waving them around with no breaks.
And then one day, suddenly, it was only used for voice commanding Netflix to pause my show so I could whiz. Wiz? Pee.
So, when MS revealed that it was going to be mandatory... even I, a once diehard Kinect supporter, thought it was dumb.
I remember loving the Kinect for the first few months. I bought Dance Central, Child of Eden, Kinect Sports, The Gunstringer, UFC's workout game, Ubisoft's workout game, Fruit Ninja, Dance Central 2, and 3 and I remember starting to think about what a chore it was to play many of those games. Especially Child of Eden and Gunstringer. I had to grab a kitchen chair and put it in front of my coffee table for me to sit on, just for the Kinect to see me clearly and then my arms would tire out waving them around with no breaks.
And then one day, suddenly, it was only used for voice commanding Netflix to pause my show so I could whiz. Wiz? Pee.
So, when MS revealed that it was going to be mandatory... even I, a once diehard Kinect supporter, thought it was dumb.
It's sad to read that such a great studio got taken so far of course by a peripheral that has quickly dropped out of relevancy. I really don't like that Don Mattrick gave the directive to just make Wii Sports but with Kinect.
Nice to read that again. It's too bad that management at Rare was so keen on Kinect at the time.
Nice to read that again. It's too bad that management at Rare was so keen on Kinect at the time.
Neuromancer
Member
From what I understand there is too much lag inherent with Kinect to make it useful for VR.
I think "like Kinect" is an important distinction... the Kinect v2 itself would be unsuited to VR, but some evolution of the device would be extremely beneficial for a feeling of presence. Wand-like devices are a serious limitation atm in comparison to it actually knowing what you're doing with your body.
The biggest issue I had with mandatory Kinect for Xbox One was that MS didn't seem to fully believe in the device. I'm not the biggest kinect fan to begin with, but I was surprised that the games support for it was so terrible. At least Kinect for 360 was accompanied by several retail games that was specifically designed for the device.
They didn't even bother to port over some of the more succesful 360 Kinect games to Xbox One.
RowdyReverb
Member
No one wants it anymore. Demand was pretty high after the Wii
PanicFreak
Member
Yea. but Rare was supposedly "dead" when most of those guys were at Rare/MS.
OH right. All the talent was really at Free Radical before it was at Playtronic. What are some of the other "all the talent has left to work at ______" developers?
ElRenoRaven
Member
That really was a good read. Shame what happened to Rare as a result. Says a lot though about Phil when they say he's like do what you want and we'll back you. Really glad this is the type of guy running the place now.
InsaneTiger
Member
Don gets a lot of the flack because he was the face of Xbox and deservedly so, but Xbones original design decisions were a collaborative effort from the entire Xbox team, first-party devs and Phil.
Steverulez
Member
Lol, of all the quotes from that article that should have been in the OP that is probably the one that should be first on the list
Alx
Member
I don't think there is competition between both technologies, both are at opposite ends of a spectrum.
VR is based on intrusive technology that you strap to yourself, with the purpose of letting you focus on your virtual experience and nothing else.
The most appreciated aspects of interfaces like kinect is that you don't have to grab any controller, you're just there and do your thing whenever you want to. It's meant to be always available, and improve multitasking, like voice commands, user identification and simple gestures could illustrate.
Natural interfaces are the kind of things you'll use when getting home, or preparing dinner, or getting out of the shower. VR interfaces are the kind of things for which you plan dedicated sessions that you want to appreciate 100%.
Yup, I agree entirely. I still don't understand, at a time when they were struggling to give reasons for people to buy the kinect SKU, they could have produced many quick and easy ports of last gen games. Even Sony managed to sell cameras with its silly interactive demo.
Why did you come into my brain and type it out before I could? I actually don't care that you did because you saved me the hassle to. Great post.
Neuromancer
Member
I agree being able to do things with your hands would be great in VR. At the same time, for many games it may make more sense to be able to hold something and press a button. For feeling like you're shooting a gun, for example, even a regular gamepad would be better than just your hands.
We are still in the nascent stages of VR; the ideal VR solution should be able to do both.
The point is more that an entire studio can have its creativity stifled by a single, ignorant order given by a higher-up who shouldn't be meddling in the first place.
If only that would translate into the gaming masses buying in to the Xbox brand.
Phil's taking over hasn't seemed to erase the vitriol many people still seem to have for the Xbox One. Which is a shame really, its a good console to have in one's collection and a lot of people are missing out over some butthurt they experienced under the reins of the real villain.
It's like if you were pissed at Prince John and Robin Hood comes and deposes him and places awesome King Richard on the throne but not supporting King Richard because his brother was a douche...
Steverulez
Member
Pretty sure we've heard this and the other just before it at another time too. Certainly paints a different picture indeed.
Neuromancer
Member
I fully believe Phil Spencer was on the ground floor of all of those discussions. He defended the Xbox One's DRM as much as Mattrick did.
http://www.destructoid.com/ms-on-xbox-one-we-have-built-a-natively-connected-device-255988.phtml
All of the Rare talent are also at 343 Industries.
(No really: Ex-Rare devs that worked on DKC3, DK64, Banjo-Tooie and Viva Pinata are currently working there)
Seriously though... I don't think some people realise how many people that have worked at Rare over the years. I've seen so many comments that say that "Playtonic is the real Rare" even though there are multiple other splinter studios and the fact that Rare is still going strong.
Hopefully when MS opens the Xbox One up to 3rd parties, we'll see more games and apps that use the Kinect and the potential it has is shown more. I can't wait for the //build/ conference because that's probably when they'll announce UWP opens up for Xbox. I do believe they won't open the store for those 3rd party apps until the fall (give developers time to make games and hype them).
Kinect v2 would have been a differentiator (well still is in my opinion but I understand the general gamer consensus) if MS released the Xbox One with it already being open to 3rd parties to develop games/apps for the system. I heard that that was the plan but obviously a lot of things changed (as we all know) and MS was changing as well.
I personally can't wait to dev on it and I know other developers that want to be able to do that as well (most of us come from the XNA dev period). We'll see what happens. Kinect isn't mandatory (which would have helped these developers) but there's still a good amount of people who have and love them.
Kinect v2 would have been a differentiator (well still is in my opinion but I understand the general gamer consensus) if MS released the Xbox One with it already being open to 3rd parties to develop games/apps for the system. I heard that that was the plan but obviously a lot of things changed (as we all know) and MS was changing as well.
I personally can't wait to dev on it and I know other developers that want to be able to do that as well (most of us come from the XNA dev period). We'll see what happens. Kinect isn't mandatory (which would have helped these developers) but there's still a good amount of people who have and love them.
I just remember the Kinect sort of being the point where MS handed the rest of the generation to Sony, at least from a core gamer's perspective. MS was pumping all it's efforts into making the Kinect a success while Sony was still producing games like TLOU. The early years of the 360 were incredible with games like Gears, Mass Effect, Bioshock, Halo... Then MS dropped the ball, the incompetence culminating in the disastrous reveal of the Xbone.
Steverulez
Member
He wouldn't have his job for much longer if he came out and shit on their plans publicly, you just don't do that.
Cboat is loved on here for his insight into Xbox at that time (and others), I believe he said it was Mattrick's vision and his fault... on the other hand Phil's job is (and was) to tow the company line and get games signed and made for the platform which he did a pretty good job of, in my opinion.
Of course he was part of those discussion as management, he was also in a lot of the meetings in 2004/2005 for the launch of the Xbox 360 and going forwards
As an employee of a boss that makes a TON of regrettable software design decisions that I don't agree with...and usually have to go back and redo later when users complain...
This is what you do when you're not the boss and you want to keep your job!
You tell the boss, "I don't think this is a good idea." They either listen to you or they tell you, "This is what we're doing, tow the line or get fired."
I choose "tow the line". I like having a good paying job. I bet Phil does too.
PanicFreak
Member
I'm so glad that era of gaming is dead.
This paired with the 2008 Nintendo E3 Keynote sucked the life out of me. It will forever be known as the dark ages of gaming.
You're welcome.
Yea, I totally agree with the whole "sometimes you just need buttons" argument against Kinect. I think one of the key weaknesses for the device was that it was always being pushed as a standalone input, and not something that could augment existing technologies. It's not even just a case of using you hands, the position of your body in general is super-useful information to have within a VR environment, especially if you are expected to for example dodge something. Your mind is subconsciously aware of the boundaries of your body and whether or not something should have made contact, but without something like the Kinect, the game itself doesn't. This would even help with many "cockpit" type games where the game would know the positioning of your flightstick or whatever, allowing you to find it ingame without danger of losing its position once it's out of your view due to the headset, etc.
We're definitely going to need some sort of combined solution in the future.
Steverulez
Member
Towing the line got him to the top of the pile as well, seems like he did a pretty good job of working his way up
Darth Smurf X
Member
I totally agree. Fighter Within?!?! -sigh-
Dance Central Spotlight, Fruit Ninja Kinect, Kinect Sports Rivals, their fitness game and maybe one or 2 more should have been mandatory launch titles. Give people a visible reason why they NEED to spend the extra $100Not a bunch of lies and PR fluff.
Bits N Pieces
Member
Just read the full article, good read with great insight into Rare back in the day of Kinect.
Good ol' OP with his selective choice of cuts though lol
Good ol' OP with his selective choice of cuts though lol
Yes how DARE they make games for people other then 30 year old males! Dark times indeed. Oh brother.
Kinect Sports Rivals not only needed to be ready for launch... it really needed to be a pack-in title with every single console. You don't make a peripheral like Kinect mandatory with every console, and then not package any software to use with it.
I never understood the "MS forced them to make more Kinect games!" angle.
The success of Kinect Sports (and the Kinect device itself) alongside the Xbox 360 in 2010/2011 vs. Viva Piñata is all that really needs to be compared. The former was a FAR bigger hit for Rare so they tried to continue on with the trend.
________
I am positive that this was the plan (especially since the game was revealed before the Xbox One's launch).
Steverulez
Member
Kinect Sports Rivals was announced just before or after the E3 2013 conference, I can't remember which one. Unless you meant revealed in a different way?
People made games for kids and teenagers long before motion control was a thing.
And they still can today.
Salty Hippo
Member
The only ones who have ever said it wasn't Microsoft's fault are Playtonic, who have a game releasing on XB1 and no reason not to be political, and Phil Spencer himself. What about the statements over the years from countless other ex-Rare staff who are spread all over the industry? Nothing but salt, surely. Let's ignore those guys and take Gavin Price's words, only his and Phil Spencer's words, as facts.
Right they do it on mobile away from controllers with three different inputs that read as "this is for character moment" and hidden buttons under the sticks. The driving idea behind motion control was "Controller have abounded K.I.S.S and become a barrier", and you know what? That part was and is dead on. That the industry played with actually getting not just kids and teenagers, but adult non-gamers instead of just shrugging and giving up on them completely is far from a "dark age" dark for you or me maybe, but not in general.
It'd make as much sense as me calling this "the dark age of science fiction" because I personally loath what's happened to Star Trek, have always hated Star Wars and think Moffat couldn't write his way out a paper bag. For me it is a dark age, in general nope, things are going great.
But boo-ho grandma and grandpa played console games, everything was ruined. Look beyond yourself.
Bits N Pieces
Member
So its the guys at Playtonic who are lying then? Cool.
Surely you understand there are two sides of every story and that there are still loads of Vets currently at Rare?
I'm also scratching my head thinking of a tine where I'VE spoken to someone about a previous employer that didn't stick them in it. Maybe that's just me and every person ive ever met though
Yeah... Anyone want to dig up the old RARE mega-thread that was chock full of dozens upon dozens upon dozens of great game ideas and pitches that Microsoft turned down? I'm looking for it right now, and it was exhaustively comprehensive. It had a metric ton of scrapped games that Microsoft - who were "very supportive" - kept passing on, or mandating massive changes, or mandating they do other things.
If I remember correctly (I hope I am), it was also Microsoft that told them that a Banjo-Kazooie game wasn't viable in modern markets... not as a platformer, at least.
Microsoft isn't "evil", but we had plenty of evidence they didn't know how to manage RARE and made some insane business decisions with the fabled studio.
Edit: I think this was it.