Sorry, by average joe I meant casual gamer joe. Erm, I'm not sure if you really are on planet earth or not but pretty much every casual gamer knows that they are being ripped off by sony if in the UK. Yes I agree that sony has very powerful brand loyalty, it's not to be ignored, but it didn't help them in the long run with the PSP, and there's only so much you can charge before people switch off. I'm no microsoft fanboy, I own a PS2, but it's just simply too much to ask (even though I earn a pretty average decent wage) for £425 for a console that still doesn't have anything quality wise that can't be supplemented by a 360. Maybe a year down the line things will be different. But with GTA4 on both consoles, you've got to admit that that's a massive loss for sony. The simple fact is that pre orders for the PS3 are not reaching expected levels. Go into any UK game store and talk to the staff!