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[Tik-Tok]

Its online, what do you expect. I respect your pop offs for SF cause I deserve it, but don't even start on Marvel.

Sadly this is the truth ;_;

I can only dream of a day where online tournaments are a norm.

 

[MikeBreezy92]

The reason I suggest SF5 won't grow the scene is because of projected shrinkage. I think it's safe to say that the scene is stagnate in terms of growth atm and I predict the scene to shrink in the near future because I honestly feel console gaming, the medium FGs are currently attached to beyond Japan, are losing relevance.

IF SF5 still makes sense 3-5 years from now, at best I think it may bring us back to 2010 - 2011. That nostalgic wave is not going to be as strong a force next time around and a lot of the old guard will be middle-aged.

Oh but of course. it'll do something but its not gonna be 2009 again when it comes to growth.

 

[Busaiku]

Mortal Kombat and Street Fighter aren't going to grow the scene any more, it will just appeal to the same base of hardcore/casual players from 2008 - 2012.

Not that it will, but something like Guilty Gear Xrd has a better shot of growing the scene in a more substantial way, if it caught on (it won't).
It's basically a new IP to most people, so it would definitely get a different demographic.

 

[Infinite]

F2p is where fighting games will wind up and then we will have that disruptive FG that will bring new players in and grow the competing scene.

That is dependent on two factors one being the monetization model isn't a scam and two if the competive scene adopts PC gaming (steam boxes?)

 

[Slamtastic]

The scene would grow if a DBZ or Naruto game would be legit enough to be part of the scene.

We already have DC and Marvel, When's Shounen Jump?

 

[MikeBreezy92]

I think DOA5U had the best model when it came to F2P. Every other I've seen is like like TR which sucks or KI which I will barely call a F2P model.

^We already had Budokai 3

 

[ThatCrazyGuy]

A good f2p model and great netcode/online infrastructure is what is needed to grow.

Hope sf5 brings it. Or....

A new IP will take hold!! !

 

[mbpm1]

I always find it interesting to hear about non-fg related stuff that event organisers get up to, like how level up streams weddings or something? And gootecks streaming dance parties and being a DJ? I think spending all that time just on FGs tho could put them in a tricky situation if the market changes and there's nothing decent released or played for a while, which is always likely.

really? Had no idea. Guess they had to get their expertise somewhere though.

 

[Kadey]

Fighting games are too hard. How do I get better at fighting games? What fighting games should I get? We see threads like these pop up all the time.

 

[Slamtastic]

I think DOA5U had the best model when it came to F2P. Every other I've seen is like like TR which sucks or KI which I will barely call a F2P model.

Xuan Dou Zhi Wang. But with no release outside of China in sight, no one will really care.

It also has great netcode.

 

[Kimosabae]

I agree that F2P is the next potentially disruptive avenue for FGs... but its best chance would be on PC around some design that isn't beholden to the arcade stick layout.

 

[Kumubou]

F2p is where fighting games will wind up and then we will have that disruptive FG that will bring new players in and grow the competing scene.

That is dependent on two factors one being the monetization model isn't a scam and two if the competive scene adopts PC gaming (steam boxes?)

The concern I have here is... who would step up and do it? None of the Japanese developers with experience are really willing to make that kind of move and threaten what's left of the arcade market, the newer Japanese developers are all busy making waifu on waifu violence simulators, and out west the expertise in the genre is very thin -- it would be like asking an eastern developer to make a FPS.

I just don't see where it comes from, there really aren't any hungry developers in the genre, and the asset demands are too demanding for smaller, more agile independent developers. Maybe once the top end of the indie movement really stats moving into the A-AA space that got vacated this generation we might see a stab at it from some dedicated/insane specialists.

 

[MikeBreezy92]

Fighting games are too hard. How do I get better at fighting games? What fighting games should I get? We see threads like these pop up all the time.

Thus the need for tutorials and removal of arbitrary mechanics.

 

[enzo_gt]

I always find it interesting to hear about non-fg related stuff that event organisers get up to, like how level up streams weddings or something? And gootecks streaming dance parties and being a DJ? I think spending all that time just on FGs tho could put them in a tricky situation if the market changes and there's nothing decent released or played for a while, which is always likely.

From what I see from Sp00ky and Art anyways, they're aware of these sorts of things but also really, really like fighting games. Tough when you want to do something you like and can't motivate yourself to branch out, possibly even in fear of losing what you've currently established though.

Worked for Maximillian though. He has a fuckload of subs and still manages to make content for pretty different communities and just a bunch of games he likes. Sp00ky should do more RPG stuff on YT IMO.

The reason I suggest SF5 won't grow the scene is because of projected shrinkage. I think it's safe to say that the scene is stagnate in terms of growth atm and I predict the scene to shrink in the near future because I honestly feel console gaming, the medium FGs are currently attached to beyond Japan, are losing relevance.

IF SF5 still makes sense 3-5 years from now, at best I think it may bring us back to 2010 - 2011. That nostalgic wave is not going to be as strong a force next time around and a lot of the old guard will be middle-aged.

I think it will. The reason I say this is because of so many people out there that always wanted to get into SF or tried and gave it up. Make your game more accessible than before and you can retain those players. Unfortunately Capcom seems preoccupied with putting that accessibility in stuff like comeback mechanics than proper combat or game design though.

And the old guard doesn't matter that much, it's about reaching that broader audience and catching people on the fence or who've ever thought of getting into fighting games but x stigma or y limitation has prevented them from doing so. Financially secure people will still buy a copy because they can.

 

[QisTopTier]

Alright after I watched more of that xrd milla vs the world shit. Hype restored.

That flower super is fucking dumbshit tier :lol

But yeah she has pretty easy 50% combos that drag to the corner she's gonna beast.

 

[Anth0ny]

Fighting games are too hard. How do I get better at fighting games? What fighting games should I get? We see threads like these pop up all the time.

I don't know what more people want. Something like Marvel 3 is very noob friendly. How do you dumb it down more than that?

Obviously Dive Kick and Smash don't count for some reason.

 

[QisTopTier]

I don't know what more people want. Something like Marvel 3 is very noob friendly. How do you dumb it down more than that?

Obviously Dive Kick and Smash don't count for some reason.

Smash is the perfect casual friendly fighter though.

Fighting games are too hard. How do I get better at fighting games? What fighting games should I get? We see threads like these pop up all the time.

I think the problem a lot of people have is they don't know how to approach learning one or play people way outside their skillzone and feel like they have no chance of learning to be that good.

 

[Busaiku]

And Super Smash Bros will do much worse than Super Smash Bros Brawl.
Even including the 3DS game.

 

[Slamtastic]

Someone should make Smash, but with lifebars so it would be a fighting game.

Genre saved.

 

[QisTopTier]

Someone should make Smash, but with lifebars so it would be a fighting game.

Genre saved.

There is a mode like that in the game already.

 

[Kumubou]

I don't really buy into the accessibility argument -- LoL and DotA 2 are about as accessible and streamlined as a brick wall, but no one cares because that's the game everyone's playing, and there's a ton of external information out there.

I think part of the problem is that when you are doing bad in a fighting game, there are zero positive reinforcement loops. Even when you're getting earfed in a MOBA, you're still gaining gear and levels and stuff happens and you're grinding toward that next unlock or custom drop. Whereas in a fighting game you're just stuck in an L factory until you figure it out, and a lot of people don't like that rawness.

Actually I think the real issue is how matchmaking in most fighting games is super wack -- the games are their most fun when people are playing other players at or around their skill level, and finding that online randomly is way harder than it should be. There's still problems to solve here (the sequence of WLWLWLWLWLWLWL that would occur would still be a negative for a lot of people), but it would address a lot of issues.

 

[theprodigy]

And Super Smash Bros will do much worse than Super Smash Bros Brawl.
Even including the 3DS game.

hell, the Wii U version will probably do worse than Smash 64

 

[Infinite]

The concern I have here is... who would step up and do it? None of the Japanese developers with experience are really willing to make that kind of move and threaten what's left of the arcade market, the newer Japanese developers are all busy making waifu on waifu violence simulators, and out west the expertise in the genre is very thin -- it would be like asking an eastern developer to make a FPS.

I just don't see where it comes from, there really aren't any hungry developers in the genre, and the asset demands are too demanding for smaller, more agile independent developers. Maybe once the top end of the indie movement really stats moving into the A-AA space that got vacated this generation we might see a stab at it from some dedicated/insane specialists.

Namco made Tekken Revolution and Capcom is developing deep down a f2p game. A f2p Sf5 wouldn't surprised me it would just also need to be on PC as well as consoles to make a difference.

You're not wrong at though however it's not because Japanese devs aren't hungry but Nesica makes FG devs like arcsys a lot of money. It's similar to what the animation and music industries over there deals with. Why test the waters with a new business model when you're essentially guaranteed profits from exploiting your assured user base.

 

[Slamtastic]

I think part of the problem is that when you are doing bad in a fighting game, there are zero positive reinforcement loops. Even when you're getting earfed in a MOBA, you're still gaining gear and levels and stuff happens and you're grinding toward that next unlock or custom drop. Whereas in a fighting game you're just stuck in an L factory until you figure it out, and a lot of people don't like that rawness.

I agree.

 

[Uraizen]

Fighting games are too hard. How do I get better at fighting games? What fighting games should I get? We see threads like these pop up all the time.

Yup... people want instant gratification and this is not a genre they will be getting it from.

 

[enzo_gt]

And Super Smash Bros will do much worse than Super Smash Bros Brawl.
Even including the 3DS game.

Only because it's being released on a system that's sent to die.

I guess the bigger question is will the console install base grow big enough to usurp what we currently have, or far more unlikely, will the genre die and gain new life on PC platforms which would mean pretty much abandoning many of the more positive conceptions of the genre over time.

 

[QisTopTier]

I agree.

You'll be glad to know that GGXrd has a medal system that keeps track of little things you done in a match and tells you at the end what you earned. It even has a little medal pop up under your life bar when you do those things

 

[BakedYams]

Offline is legit though. Best experience ever.

Damn straight.

I don't get it, you've been rubbing the wrong way with me for all the times you respond to me, hopefully I'm wrong.

If online is improved drastically then online tournaments should flourish and a lot of people should have a chance. But sadly, since online is trash for a lot of games (aka Marvel), online tournaments won't be a thing too soon.

 

[enzo_gt]

You'll be glad to know that GGXrd has a medal system that keeps track of little things you done in a match and tells you at the end what you earned. It even has a little medal pop up under your life bar when you do those things

This is pretty cool. Thank you based Halo.

 

[Kimosabae]

I think it will. The reason I say this is because of so many people out there that always wanted to get into SF or tried and gave it up. Make your game more accessible than before and you can retain those players. Unfortunately Capcom seems preoccupied with putting that accessibility in stuff like comeback mechanics than proper combat or game design though.

And the old guard doesn't matter that much, it's about reaching that broader audience and catching people on the fence or who've ever thought of getting into fighting games but x stigma or y limitation has prevented them from doing so. Financially secure people will still buy a copy because they can.[

Street Fighter's perception at this point is that it's THE competitive fighter. Unless you're willing to retool the game from the ground up, and then effectively market that retooling so the public understands - that's not going to change. Look at the Times Square ad. That approach is the ultimate double edged blade. Of course, Ultra has limited appeal at this point, and its marketing is targeted - but it's a Times Square ad. Doubling down on the competitive aspect of SF is a great way to sell it as more than a game, but it's going to take some genius marketing to convince the average joe that that is something worth paying attention to or investing in in the coming future. Capcom is playing a dangerous game with that ad - but I respect it.

The current old guard won't matter then, but the coming old guard matters now. If they're taking the perception of the series in that direction - the grassroots matters. History suggests this with SF4.

If Capcom can manage to develop some proven disruptive fighting gameplay with some new IP and then slap those principles onto SF5 in the future - I think they're golden. But that takes just as much luck as effort and skill.

 

[Anth0ny]

Yup... people want instant gratification and this is not a genre they will be getting it from.

"learning combos is too hard, srk inputs are too hard"

"okay here's smash bros"

"smash bros isn't a fighting game!"

 

[smurfx]

As long as you have to play offline to have a decent competitive experience, fighting games are going nowhere.

fighting games will be around but that doesn't mean they won't become irrelevant to the mainstream gamer. once that happens then companies like capcom and namco might start abandoning the genre and then fighting games will reach the true dark ages. these days you are likely to find many young gamers who have never even played a fighting game and it's only going get worse.

 

[Kadey]

Thing is fighting games destroys people's ego more so than any other genre. It's you versus someone. Most people hate losing and fighting games you will lose a lot. Certain people just cannot accept losing.

 

[theprodigy]

"learning combos is too hard, srk inputs are too hard"

"okay here's smash bros"

"wavedashing is too hard, also I don't like combos"

fixed

 

[MikeBreezy92]

They sorta kinda maybe have a point....even though they're wrong.

 

[Busaiku]

Arc System Works games have always had things that let you know when things happened, which I think gets ignored too often.
You know which attacks are overheads/lows, you know which hit you drop a combo, and so on.

 

[Karsticles]

I don't really buy into the accessibility argument -- LoL and DotA 2 are about as accessible and streamlined as a brick wall, but no one cares because that's the game everyone's playing, and there's a ton of external information out there.

I think part of the problem is that when you are doing bad in a fighting game, there are zero positive reinforcement loops. Even when you're getting earfed in a MOBA, you're still gaining gear and levels and stuff happens and you're grinding toward that next unlock or custom drop. Whereas in a fighting game you're just stuck in an L factory until you figure it out, and a lot of people don't like that rawness.

Actually I think the real issue is how matchmaking in most fighting games is super wack -- the games are their most fun when people are playing other players at or around their skill level, and finding that online randomly is way harder than it should be. There's still problems to solve here (the sequence of WLWLWLWLWLWLWL that would occur would still be a negative for a lot of people), but it would address a lot of issues.

DotA was huge before it had a sequel, and there was no game more brutal to learn than it. I would rather jump into Marvel for the first time right now than learn DotA again. And that game had zero goddamn positive reinforcement if you sucked. The only thing you earned was 45 minutes of getting ganked by the heroes you fed while your team bitches you out for being terrible. You have to go through that for at least 50 games before you rise above shit tier in that game. Nothing drives you beyond the will to dominate.

The problem with fighting games is that they get boring because not enough new stuff happens. The events that occur are limited because it is 1v1, while DotA is dynamic, strategic, and best of all, there is horizontal transference of game knowledge between characters. DotA characters are less intricate than fighting game ones, and it is a good thing. They all have 4 specials and a normal attack, and you control them all in a similar manner. You don't have to memorize frame data, 1 frame links, combos, or any of that bullshit for your opponent either. This is why Smash is also the best fighting game. None of that matters in Smash, it is all instinct like DotA.

I can't just go and pick up and play Hulk just because I know how to play Dormammu. If the game is really poorly designed like BlazBlue, I need to spend an hour in training mode just to learn a basic combo so I am not complete garbage. How many people want to sit around and learn all this crap? DotA does not make you do this.

DotA also lets you express yourself creatively. My Zeus is not your Zeus. My build and approach is different. I can customize my toolset when I play and make it mine.

Do you see how far behind fighting games have fallen? They can't even manage quality netcode most of the time. The genre is stagnant because no one has taken the next step. If Smash Bros added character customization through H&H style cards, it would be the first step forward in the genre since Marvel 2.

 

[BakedYams]

Thing is fighting games destroys people's ego more so than any other genre. It's you versus someone. Most people hate losing and fighting games you will lose a lot. Certain people just cannot accept losing.

Man, salt is certainly strong. Although, some people improve drastically with that sore loser attitude. Others learn from there mistakes and accept the lose. Two sides of the coin really.

 

[QisTopTier]

Arc System Works games have always had things that let you know when things happened, which I think gets ignored too often.
You know which attacks are overheads/lows, you know which hit you drop a combo, and so on.

Yup, one of the best things in their games imo.

 

[theprodigy]

Thing is fighting games destroys people's ego more so than any other genre. It's you versus someone. Most people hate losing and fighting games you will lose a lot. Certain people just cannot accept losing.

also, see any thread whining about "spamming"

That's a pretty accurate representation of casual Smash fans.

that'sthejoke.jpg

 

[enzo_gt]

Damn Karst just ethered the entire genre.

Damn.

 

[Silky]

>People can't accept losing.

>The stigma of 'fighting games have a ridiculous learning curve' still exists which throws off a lot of people.

>There's a stigma of 'If I don't have the right setup (an arcade stick) I won't be able to be taken seriously or my skills won't improve.' exists as well. I know too many people who won't learn a fighting game because they think a stick automatically makes them gdllk

>It's hard for usual FG players to introduce FGs to casuals/newcomers themselves. They expect the newcomer/casual to have some sort of moderate knowledge of a fighter and when they teach they're completely over the newcomer's head

 

[SloaneRisette]

fixed

That's a pretty accurate representation of casual Smash fans.

 

[QisTopTier]

Damn Karst just ethered the entire genre.

Damn.

He is also is coming off as insane and illogical

Edit: And Karst if it takes you an hour to learn a basic newbie friendly BB BnB you should

1. Change your character to one easier to play til you get the execution down
2. If you are already playing say Ranga, Terumi, Jin, Noel, Makoto and can't do their standard bnb's then quit fighting games.

 

[vocab]

That flower super is fucking dumbshit tier :lol

bad video quality plus me trying out some gif capture software.


my reaction

 

[ViewtifulJC]

He is also is coming off as insane and illogical

oh, you're just saying that cuz he bashed your precious perfect BlazBlue

 

[enzo_gt]

He is also is coming off as insane and illogical

The positive reinforcement, transference and diversity points are pretty solid points I think. Stuff that universally helps. MK actually attempts to help people transfer skills between characters easily but it has problems elsewhere.

 

[Infinite]

Yup, one of the best things in their games imo.

Also the best comeback mechanic ever is featured in their games.

 

[Professor Beef]

I am, I don't play online though for PS3.... It sucks. Some of my inputs don't even come out most of the time.

Are you using wireless? Because it was crisp on my end. You had no neutral game to speak of, which is why I was able to do everything.

 

[Silky]

DotA was huge before it had a sequel, and there was no game more brutal to learn than it. I would rather jump into Marvel for the first time right now than learn DotA again. And that game had zero goddamn positive reinforcement if you sucked. The only thing you earned was 45 minutes of getting ganked by the heroes you fed while your team bitches you out for being terrible. You have to go through that for at least 50 games before you rise above shit tier in that game. Nothing drives you beyond the will to dominate.

The problem with fighting games is that they get boring because not enough new stuff happens. The events that occur are limited because it is 1v1, while DotA is dynamic, strategic, and best of all, there is horizontal transference of game knowledge between characters. DotA characters are less intricate than fighting game ones, and it is a good thing. They all have 4 specials and a normal attack, and you control them all in a similar manner. You don't have to memorize frame data, 1 frame links, combos, or any of that bullshit for your opponent either. This is why Smash is also the best fighting game. None of that matters in Smash, it is all instinct like DotA.

I can't just go and pick up and play Hulk just because I know how to play Dormammu. If the game is really poorly designed like BlazBlue, I need to spend an hour in training mode just to learn a basic combo so I am not complete garbage. How many people want to sit around and learn all this crap? DotA does not make you do this.

DotA also lets you express yourself creatively. My Zeus is not your Zeus. My build and approach is different. I can customize my toolset when I play and make it mine.

Do you see how far behind fighting games have fallen? They can't even manage quality netcode most of the time. The genre is stagnant because no one has taken the next step. If Smash Bros added character customization through H&H style cards, it would be the first step forward in the genre since Marvel 2.

There are some things in this that are questionable such as your claim of FGs are 'limited'/not dynamic/strategic like DOTA and there's a lack of memorization in DOTA compared to a FG but otherwise I would agree.