fighting games aren't a major genre anymore. growing up it was sports, platformers, shooters and fighting games that ruled the arcade and the home consoles. 3d replaced platformers and the shooter genre is niche now. i guess you can say fps games replaced it but they are different. moba games are the new big genre and i guess you can say they are replacing fighting games but fighting games were already becoming kinda irrelevant before that.
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Fighting Games Weekly | Feb 24 - Mar 2 | Play Seriously
- Thread starter enzo_gt
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theprodigy
Member
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
Nah, BB is pretty rough, but the game has a fuck ton of tutorial stuff in it to teach you how to play. I don't view not being able to pick up the game mash buttons and feel cool as a bad thing. Besides the game has stylish mode which is pretty much smash bros controls if someone wants to be super casual about it
No it doesn't. The game does not reward a lot of play styles. Certain items are mandatory because of counter picks/optimization. You have to play certain heroes one and one way only because they suck at everything else but "x". There's heroes that aren't even viable any more.
I am rolling my eyes so hard at this. The reason Melee reached the current level it has is because people like M2K and Thomas Tipman broke the game down in Action Replay and discussed the implications of frame data and hitboxes on the forums. That's why we know Fox can combo the way he can with Shine and Ganon can edge guard with his back turned to the ledge with Up Air. The barrier of entry to any game is only as high as the local competition relevant to you. None of this matters if you're not conscious of the competitive standard. A large part of the problem is people becoming exposed to those standards and experiencing a cognitive dissonance/double consciousness. Playing FGs was easy when you didn't know who Justin Wong was and you could just mash on your buddies.
Instinct? What's that in the context of a video game? Your behaviors are learned through experience. That's the other reason the competitive ceiling got so high.
call_kotaku
Member
The thing is, fighting games aren't actually that hard, it's just that the systems in place on major releases and general perceptions of the genre sort of perpetuate some sort of difficulty barrier. Gamers in general think that you need is to be able to do moves and combos, but what actually counts is spacing and timing. A new player usually ends up either only pressing forward (or up-forward) and mashing buttons, or repeatedly trying to do fireballs and dragon punches with no regard for context. I don't think either of these reactions is necessarily illogical given the information they have to work with, so it's just something that fighting games need to improve on.
I get the feeling that "rock paper scissors" systems like the ones VF and KI use will become more and more popular as time goes on. Not that it's better or worse than other systems for fighting games, but because it's the easiest thing to explain to someone and easiest to reinforce with other mechanics.
I get the feeling that "rock paper scissors" systems like the ones VF and KI use will become more and more popular as time goes on. Not that it's better or worse than other systems for fighting games, but because it's the easiest thing to explain to someone and easiest to reinforce with other mechanics.
I didn't respect you and was overconfident thinking since you're an online warrior, you wouldn't know how to play the game, which was my downfall. I slightly adapted to Joe but I just ended up getting frustrated with his pin wheels, chip damage and none of my berserker slashes coming out when you were in the corner ;A;
And dude, I had lag on my end, its wired but still get lag for some odd reason in a lot of other games too -_-. I was honestly amazed at how you landed some combos with Joe though, I really wanna face you offline so I can learn the Joe match up. Feels like facing a less threatening Morrigan with missiles, still annoying though.
"God's Beard!"
Member
Don't forget that most people who have never played a fighting game can't do a fireball motion. Even people who love the character designs and really love street fighter art and such stop playing after 10 minutes because they can't make the cool super come out.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
Yeah fuck that noise, plus FUCK it last so god damn long, There was one part where she did the mix up, combo'd the teched away she chased and the damn super was still freaking going
bad video quality plus me trying out some gif capture software.
my reaction
[ig]http://img.pandawhale.com/post-29155-Blink-182-WHAT-THE-FUCK-gif-Im-YEwO.gif[/img]
Professor Beef
Banned
I'm gonna give you a free tip against Joe if you're using Wolverine: grab me when the match starts. If you let me go free, and you have no full-screen assist, then Wolverine is dead weight. The only assist you had to help you was Akuma, and he's useless in that matchup.
I'm not just some online warrior. I've been to plenty of offline tournaments but due to personal circumstances I had to stop.
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";102184022]Don't forget that most people who have never played a fighting game can't do a fireball motion. Even people who love the character designs and really love street fighter art and such stop playing after 10 minutes because they can't make the cool super come out.[/QUOTE]
And people who do play them from time to time or whenever the hype consumes them to make a purchase, can't do them consistently.
And people who do play them from time to time or whenever the hype consumes them to make a purchase, can't do them consistently.
i hope you don't think that playing offline means you are automatically superior to anybody that plays online.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
He does
SousedLouse
Member
I remember the first and last time I suggested playing Stamina Mode with a group of friends. They gave me the same look Yipes gave Floe when he hit raw S into lightning looks at Winter Brawl.
Aren't they technically streamlined compared to their forebears, namely the Starcraft and Warcraft series? I'm not trying to contradict you, that's more of an open question for the thread.
Sometimes the idea of accessibility is romanticized, and determining how accessible a game is can be pretty subjective, but the feeling of it is super-important. If people feel like there's little resistance between what they want to do and what they can do in the game, then they tend to think that a game is accessible, even if the learning curve is steep as hell. I think that's why controls for most fighting games catch so much flack when people talk about what turns them off from the genre.
Well said. A lot of fledgling FG players could act as case studies for learned helplessness. It's not like team games, since there's no one else to blame for your losses, no one else to talk to about strats that helped you win specific matches (unless you have a coach). Then again, considering how often some people blame their sticks, the game, or the other player for their loss instead of themselves, sometimes it seems like team dynamics doesn't play that big of a role in venting frustration as one might think.
It would definitely help for the online population of players, but online play would have to take a huge leap upwards in terms of respect and participation in order for that to trickle downwards and outwards towards the other groups of players that buy into these games.
maybe at low level spacing and timing is all you need, but once you get to intermediate level I feel like you need to know combos. There's still enough nonsense that goes on in that intermediate level where a solid BnB could have decided the match
Karsticles
Member
You can't even keep your head straight enough to remember the context of this conversation, which is why fighting games aren't more popular. Great job there with point #2. I last played BB when I was about 4 months into serious fighting game play, and yes it did take me that long to get a BB combo down. That is a problem. I am not the problem. I am sure I could get it all down faster now, but I have a few years of serious play behind me now.He is also is coming off as insane and illogical
Edit: And Karst if it takes you an hour to learn a basic newbie friendly BB BnB you should
1. Change your character to one easier to play til you get the execution down
2. If you are already playing say Ranga, Terumi, Jin, Noel, Makoto and can't do their standard bnb's then quit fighting games.
I didn't say DotS doesn't have memorization, just that it isn't BS stuff. It isn't frame data, it is real, tangible stuff like what items and abilities do. That stuff exists in fighting games too, and I think that is fine. That is just learning the game.
Fighting games are dynamic, but DotA is far moreso because it has so many more elements and players involved. You can only play all of your character's matchups so many times before it feels a bit repetitive. You don't have anything resembling that in DotA. Hell, you don't even have a "main" in DotA unless you are just talking about your favorite. You just pick who you want every match. That is part of how dynamic the game is. I can swap between 10 different characters in 10 games, and I will play them all pretty well. But who can swap between even 5 characters in Street Fighter at high level play? Maybe a handful of players on the planet.
I'm not sure how a lot of people put up with that, heh. And I'll be honest -- I don't think everyone, or even most people have that raw drive to get good, and I think the changes that LoL and DotA 2 had (with regards to progression systems and matchmaking) helped the genre grow, and grow a lot.
(As an aside, I remember the first MOBA game I played -- I did so bad it felt like I got kicked in the dick, and I refused to play anything in the genre for years after that.)
I don't agree with this point at all, except for how MOBA characters are easier to learn. An average DotA 2/LoL character tutorial video is what, 10-15 minutes? Whereas something like that for a fighting game at a similar depth is going to go for 4-5 hours. You can't just strip down a fighting game character to the same limited moveset, though. While there's a lot less within the scope of what could happen in a fighting game, those interactions (1v1) are a lot more involved than in a MOBA (the dynamics of a MOBA come from the team play, really).
Your Smash comment is miles off the mark, though. Combos are very important in Smash, and the APM that game requires at high levels starts to approach speeds you see in high level Starcraft:Brood War matches.
DotA makes you learn a ton of crap, though. You have to learn the tools each hero has (and while there are fewer of them, there are a lot more characters), and various item builds for both you and your opposing team, and various team compositions and all that. Saying that having to memorize too much stuff in a fighting game is a problem and then saying you don't have to do that in DotA seems dishonest.
I don't really buy this either -- in a good fighting game, anyway. There are many stylistic differences with how characters are played, in regards to certain tendencies that players may have and preferences for certain tools. It's not just as obvious, but players have a lot of space to express themselves in fighting games, even within what is commonly defined as optimal play. You are going to get certain games that devolve into solved, optimized sequences, but that's a problem with the game IMO.
I agree with you 10,000% about the netcode -- fighting games are about a decade (or more!) behind contemporary competitive games, and that needs to be addressed ASAP. I'm not so sold on the customization part (blame SFxT's gems
), but I think there could be something there if executed correctly -- it's just going to come down to someone actually doing that.Seriously. What genre is easier to explain than a fighting game? Sit two uninitiated people down, show them how to navigate the menu to the gameplay. You won't even have to explain the aim/objective. The implication of it being a fighting game makes it clear as day - the buttons attack your opponent. They'll mash away to their heart's content.
The problem creeps in once they realize there's a more effective way to play the game. Ignorance is bliss.
Professor Beef
Banned
Re: character customization...did anybody even glance at Dissidia? =|
I tried doing that at the beginning of every match but that triple jump Joe has makes it annoying to catch him, but I will take the advice nonetheless, thanks!
Not really. I get bodied by a couple of gaffers in street fighter and Beef beats me in Marvel. I know if I were to face them offline, I would even have more trouble with them.
Pretty much what Q says, however, not to everybody. Someone is always gonna be better, I'm not dissing on all online players, I even play online for SF and faced these same people offline before. I'm saying this for Marvel only since the online is horrendous. Combos drop, x-factor's don't activate, yadda yadda due to lag. I've seen some 3rd to 1st lords just suck at the game, doing unconventional combos and not being able to actually win so I believe at least for 60-70 percent who play Marvel online, they would get bodied offline.
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";102184022]Don't forget that most people who have never played a fighting game can't do a fireball motion. Even people who love the character designs and really love street fighter art and such stop playing after 10 minutes because they can't make the cool super come out.[/QUOTE]
That's what I'm saying. I think one of, if not THE biggest barrier to entry for traditional fighting games is the fear of the "learning curve". People are afraid of having to learn long, obscure, difficult combos and button inputs.
It's almost like they feel they need to do this right out the gate to compete:
When, in reality, with how scrub friendly fighting games have become, they should worry about landing something like this consistently:
that is a legitimate combo in MVC3. a baby can hit that combo.
That's what I'm saying. I think one of, if not THE biggest barrier to entry for traditional fighting games is the fear of the "learning curve". People are afraid of having to learn long, obscure, difficult combos and button inputs.
It's almost like they feel they need to do this right out the gate to compete:
When, in reality, with how scrub friendly fighting games have become, they should worry about landing something like this consistently:
that is a legitimate combo in MVC3. a baby can hit that combo.
No offense but you ARE the problem in this scenario. You and every coddled gamer like you who wants instant gratification and "Press A to win".
i remember the first time i got destroyed in the arcades by a real mahvel 2 player. i had no idea you could play the game that way. one match i got obliterated by sentinel and the other by strider/doom.
You can do that combo on a racing wheel.
Parallax Scroll
Banned
it's on a portable so no
OK, no lies looking at this honestly reminds me of how I was approaching fighters (Marvel no less) when I was really going in depth. This post is eerily true. It's really interesting seeing it all in perspective now though.
SousedLouse
Member
I got the same look from my friends for hyping Dissidia as I did for suggesting Stamina Mode. I'm just accustomed to not mentioning it in the context of fighting games now, I'm sorry
That's true to an extent, and I think it's more obvious in games that have more "wiggle room" when it comes to execution (I was going to say something like "It's more obvious in 3D games, because they have more moves", but then I remembered how wildly different play styles can be in stuff like SF, Smash, Marvel, VF, etc. I don't really know how else to put it, so yeah, "wiggle room".). However, as a game gets older and certain strategies become the baseline, the differences between players tend to be written off as flop plays or unoptimized tech - one person's bnb is another person's day 1 combo. And that mind set can take away from the game a bit, because to the players it boils the game down to "the right way to play [x]" and "whatever the fuck you're doing".
Karsticles
Member
I am not saying frame data is not important at all. I am saying it is not at the forefront of the game. You play Smash with a flow, while SF and other games have much more numerical memorization involved. Hell, as Tekken players often say, their game is nothing but frame data. And look where that series is...well, not at Evo!
Smash blends the frame data in well so that you don't feel it. It is in the background as the game's backbone. You don't even hear commentators talk about frame data for that game (at least from my Apex and Evo, but you hear it a lot in most fighting game commentary.
It would not even be possible for frame data to not be important for a fighting game. But the less important it is, the better.
The online players on GAF are solid. I am sure I can list 5 more guys here who wipe the floor with you.
How on earth could you get that from my post. Fucking mindblowing how stupid people can be.
You know how many people I have tried to teach LMHS MMHS and they still can't wrap their heads around it? Fuck.That's what I'm saying. I think one of, if not THE biggest barrier to entry for traditional fighting games is the fear of the "learning curve". People are afraid of having to learn long, obscure, difficult combos and button inputs.
It's almost like they feel they need to do this right out the gate to compete:
When, in reality, with how scrub friendly fighting games have become, they should worry about landing something like this consistently:
that is a legitimate combo in MVC3. a baby can hit that combo.
It really speaks to what the genre has left behind from it's heyday, and what games aren't doing today for new gamers.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oET56eOBP8c
The first 6 combos in this are not hard at all. Those are basic BB combos
You should of just told them it was like doing the ABC's
A goes to B goes to C goes to D
Pretty simple to get across that way
THIS! Right here! This! I've heard this excuse waaaaaay too often.
I'll back you up on this one. His BnBs are brain dead easy and can be done in a single try, unless you have trouble with chains for whatever reason.
Take it from someone who played a stupid combination in that game, it's way better to have consistency you can make stylish than it is to have style that isn't consistent.
MiniBossBattle
Member
I also think losing and feeling helpless in fighting games make people not want to play. Being bullied/footised/zoned out makes people feel like they are being cheated or get frustrated. It's a harsh genre. You can't jungle, get a better sword, rewind or reload. The worst and best feeling is making someone feel helpless or know what they will do next.
Really with James Chen could post here to chime in.
Really with James Chen could post here to chime in.
IMO with Dota and MOBAs, at least, people recommend you getting some good friends to help you out in your newbie phase. That's how my friends started back in the original.
With fighting games, people might feel less naturally inclined to ask people what they're doing wrong, since it's just them and the opponent, so they play online and don't learn very well. Especially when they inevitably face someone who knows about frame data, punishes, proper usage of supers, etc who completely humiliates them because they know several subsystems of data which the other player has no clue about.
With fighting games, people might feel less naturally inclined to ask people what they're doing wrong, since it's just them and the opponent, so they play online and don't learn very well. Especially when they inevitably face someone who knows about frame data, punishes, proper usage of supers, etc who completely humiliates them because they know several subsystems of data which the other player has no clue about.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
My friend who never played fighters ever saw that I was playing GG all the time and wanted to try it out and play with me. End results was probably one of the best Axl's I ever seen period. Funny thing though was that he always thought he sucked LOL
Your missing the point I made previously, I only mention Marvel!
I'm pretty sure you can mention 10 who can beat me in a lot of other games, including Marvel, but not wipe the floor with me in Marvel, I'll at least stand a chance or something.
Additionally, you missed my previous generalization I made to somebody else, I mentioned the online community for Marvel not for GAF.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
Clearly first and second placers won cause of lag
Which games? JC's are pretty easy in BB and GG but I feel like they have funky ass lag to them in Persona
They can be awkward with some being easier than others. Depends on the game really. Arcana heart 3 jump cancel bnbs are rough.
Karsticles
Member
Iwonttakethebaitiwonttakethbaitiwonttakethebait...Clearly first and second placers won cause of lag
Clearly first and second placers won cause of lag
No one ever said that. I clearly respect the top 3 players there and wouldn't doubt the fact that they can beat me. What I'm trying to say through your thick skull is that online Marvel is trash.
MikeBreezy92
Member
That's really not the reason its not at evo. That's probably the reason why we're not getting new blood but its not at EVO for community related reasons outside of the game itself....just my two cents.
And to be honest. That really only applies to TTT2 when it comes to frame data. ALOT of players didn't even really utilize frame data until the last two entries of the series and were some of the best in the world.
He knows.
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