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[Llyrwenne]

Who has ever used the term "Diversitypocalypse"?

I maaay or may not have named it that myself for the sake of brevity. >x>

Spoiler

*runs off to sleep for the night*

Happy to see the thread be positively received btw. <3

 

[Mael]

I have played Spirit Tracks, but the Spirit Train is a gameplay tool. It's the gameplay core of that game, it's not the damn core of the Legend of Zelda saga\narrative.

the train is the core of the game's narrative, it's everywhere in that game.
You can escape it no less than you can escape motion control in Skyward Sword.
Link being male is not the core of the saga at all.

As for Federation Force lmao please.
I was obviously referring to a mainline Metroid but if you want to go down that road sure, you can play Zelda in Hyrule Warriors. Problem solved.

If we had to wait 8 years of nothing to get Hyrule Warriors you would have a point.
And Samus being female is barely at the forefront (thankfully seeing the clusterfuck they pulled in Other M) so I'd say it's not exactly a similar situation at all too (heck it was a secret when Metroid 1 was released after all).

 

[luulubuu]

So long as your not fighting to limit games to just your own particular view of what you like to see then there isn't really a problem. Games like Senran Kagura aren't going anywhere, if you like them that's fine. It's when you make arguements that all games should be like Senran Kagura or that Senran Kagura doesn't have it's own faults that you've gone overboard.

So the solution is to stay open minded and woke, liking the stuff but knowing it's faults and limitations as a medium and how bad or good is for the industry, gender or groups.

Like what I'm nowadays but more condifent, yeah I think I can do that, thanks a lot

g e n d e r l e s s d y s t o p i a

&#65332;&#65320;&#65317; &#65318;&#65327;&#65333;&#65330; &#65329;&#65333;&#65317;&#65317;&#65330;&#65331; &#65327;&#65318; &#65332;&#65320;&#65317; &#65328;&#65313;&#65332;&#65330;&#65321;&#65313;&#65330;&#65315;&#65320;&#65337;&#65324;&#65337;&#65328;&#65331;&#65317;

Now that's a good name for a band

 

[Fishious]

we are pretty much creating problems.

we search for problems which never were existing. the golden age of gaming is long over, when games were just created to be games and nothing else.

not everything is political, racist, or patriarchal, which makes my head boggle.
How come that games which were released in the 90s were done in a better way?


i remember the discussion about ff13 when people even on GAF tried to convince that black people should stay out of a FF game.(ff7 had a black character too and was released 1997)

cant we take that political stick out of the games ass?
dont make games into something they never were.

i like the female who are sometimes too sexy, and sometimes who look like a nun, i like the dude-bro-characters as well as the weeaboo-characters.

for a change, let there be LGBT characters or black/yellow/whatever characters without fearing that "sales" will drop or whatever.

i play the game, when it is good. if it has something, which has never been before, its even better.

Sorry, but I'm going to pick on you. This right here is a pretty good encapsulation of arguments in favor of the status quo and provides several common examples. The main thrust of your argument seems to be that games were just fine in the 90s and since the current arguments about sexism/racism/etc weren't leveled against them during that period, these issues are invented. On a very cursory, surface level examination this might make sense, after all many classic games released during that time, games that shaped the current generation of developers. However the issue isn't that there weren't problems with the games from that era, but that they largely went uncommented on due to the status quo. There were problematic issues even then, but they were so ingrained in our culture that we considered them normal.

The current discussions you are seeing today are often just as applicable to older games as they are to modern ones. And these issues aren't merely things people invent to start an argument, it's recognizing long standing societal issues which also manifest themselves in games. It requires a bit of work to look outside yourself and view social constructs as what they are. It's why everything is inherently political, even if we don't intend it because it was created by the human mind and we're shaped by society. Like for example, why did so many platformers use coins as collectables? I'd guess because we live in a capitalist society so coins and similar tokens have a built in association with value. I doubt any developers were intentionally trying to make a statement about capitalism, but the concept is likely rooted in it whether they consciously realized it or not. In this same way games have something to say about politics even if they don't intend it.

So in most cases I wouldn't say game developers are guilty due to some of the more prevalent missteps, just that they need to have a more critical eye and realize when their decisions are either sub optimal or harmful by adhering to the status quo simply because it's the first thing that comes to mind. The takeaway for developers and for you as well to consider these things with an open mind rather than reacting defensively when someone suggests something outside of the norm.

 

[Funyarinpa]

Great post, OP. Thanks a whole bunch.

Regarding Zelda: I'm a stickler for lore and stuff, so if there's a lore reason for Link being always male, I see absolutely no problem with that. If Aouma decides to play with the lore to introduce a female protagonist, I'd be peeved about the lore stuff (to the extent that I care about Zelda lore), but would still applaud that it has a female protagonist. If the tale is "A boy appears and saves the world", and if Aonuma wants to keep it that, then I think it's perfectly fine. I'm not saying that asking otherwise is censorship, but I think that stuff like "A boy of legend saves the world" is perfectly acceptable just because the dev wants it to be so.

I have a question for you dear gaf buddies about something about my integrity and my hobbies; I love some "problematic" stuff like the well known Senran Kagura, Dead or Alive, Vanillaware games and such things.

For one side, I don't want to be part of the problem as being part of the fanbase of something that sexualizes women, for other side I also think that If I have that open mindset and work for a better media... That counts as being not bad?

I had this struggle for years now and I want some perspective

Sexualized games -especially the ones focused on that- are, in my opinion, simply lite porn. It's not your fault that you have a sexuality and you enjoy games like SK and DoA based on that. It was designed to appeal to people like you. That's perfectly fine. If you encourage the diversification of games overall, and games that don't solely appeal to a single demographic, then I think you're A-OK.

Nothing, really. Every group has products targeted specifically at them, that's the reality of fiction, it's perfectly normal. But it's this idea that diversity in games ONLY exists to "pander" to the "feels" of sensitive SJWs or something, not because, you know, gay/trans/black/disabled/female people exist in real life and are as deserving of representation of the Straight White Man.

Booooooom! Agreed with every single letter.

 

[Inuhanyou]

Sex isn't evil but it is dangerous. Moreover, a lot of what people want to encourage is sexual content, as you are saying. This makes the threads incredibly tangled.

My problem is a) I don't want a game culture completely drenched in fanservice, b) fanservice does lend itself to objectification and fetishization, c) I do not think a completely dry medium is where we want/need to be either, d) it is hard to untangle what I like seeing from what I think is in good taste.

I think what you're saying risks violating a), and by way of that b). It risks the world where everything is just playing to fetish and lust, but in an equal opportunity sort of way. It could be moderated, but that runs into d).

The other way of trying to defuse b) is to risk c). But people who want b), usually also want greater expression of other sexualities, female and LGTBQ and c) is antithetical to that. Many arguments run very prudish and they run contrary to other social justice concerns. Again, some sort of moderation is in order, but that runs into d).

The problem I'm trying to draw out is that many arguments in these threads don't know where they are trying to go and/or the tools they use to get there are overpowered. But something about them still rings true! And that is the knot that needs to be untangled imo.

I mean, there is no rule that says porn games can't have good game play, there are plenty of porn games that have good game play, or a good narrative outside of the porn, etc. But those games are limited in reach because of the fanservice/porn aspects, and there is nothing wrong with that either. If you like dead or alive because it's a competent fighter and is all about the sexy ladies, that's fine. But don't be upset that people take issue with the extreme focus on the sexy ladies being dressed up in bathing suits and having a spinoff game about beach volleyball. Like what you like, sure, but recognize the flaws of the games you like, and be respectful of dissenting opinions.

I fully agree with that viewpoint, and i have to apologize, i misstated that post so people got the idea i was only talking about fanservice.

I meant that as much as i enjoy and am fine with fanservice stuff in games, i recognize that we need a full balance between fanservice that can pander to whoever and non fanservice properties that are played straight and respect the diverse viewpoints and culture of gender, race and culture.

We don't have enough of the second, so the pandering to male gamers becomes the industry and that's when it becomes negative.

I'm saying its fine to have 'traditional' types of gaming content oriented at fanservice as long as it is balanced with other types of gaming content that is not that.

It's fine to like stuff that (as long as the game itself is actually good) and it's entirely possible to do so and still respect women and push for better representation.

I think that's one of the reasons for the birth of the distrusting mindset of the alt right and the creation of many sexist and racist attitudes in white males today.

A segment of those people feel like those wanting more diversity and equality in media and such is equal to destroying 'traditional' games or traditional whatever whatever, sort of like "i don't like this so it should be shut down and destroyed" viewpoint.

So they consider it a 'war' for the stuff they like as opposed to being inclusive to other attitudes and perspectives, and the people they are against, the supposed "SJWs" are coming for them from an authoritarian perspective.

I feel like if those people understood that people who champion LGBTQ and equal opportunity and representation for other colors and races and genders wanted more representation for THEIR viewpoints as opposed to just being dominated by white male centric stuff and not the absolute death of sexy games or what have you, the conversation would be easier to sell in certain cases.

 

[LordKasual]

Amazing thread OP!

One of the best in here

I have a question for you dear gaf buddies about something about my integrity and my hobbies; I love some "problematic" stuff like the well known Senran Kagura, Dead or Alive, Vanillaware games and such things.

For one side, I don't want to be part of the problem as being part of the fanbase of something that sexualizes women, for other side I also think that If I have that open mindset and work for a better media... That counts as being not bad?

I had this struggle for years now and I want some perspective

It is literally as simple as admitting that what you like has some negative social aspects to it. There's nothing to feel bad about.

Doesn't make you a bad person, anymore than eating beef makes you a murderer of cows (or tons of other species on earth thanks methane).

I love my own flavors of problematic depictions. Blame biology.

 

[PataHikari]

Lastly I’d like to shortly touch on people shifting the discussion to being about the source of a story rather than the story itself.

Then the thread focuses on single quote.

Nice to see OPs point being proven.

 

[luulubuu]

Sexualized games -especially the ones focused on that- are, in my opinion, simply lite porn. It's not your fault that you have a sexuality and you enjoy games like SK and DoA based on that. It was designed to appeal to people like you. That's perfectly fine. If you encourage the diversification of games overall, and games that don't solely appeal to a single demographic, then I think you're A-OK.

That's the thing, I don't like most of that stuff because it's sexy or anything remotely, is more because it's silly, flashy, and most of the time I feel great smashing buttons, but I see not only the games but also the promotion of those games and most of the time is silly but also a bit cringey.

I do my best to promote media with diversity, a positive and open dialogue about genders and that kind of stuff. I'm proud of that part of me

we are pretty much creating problems.

we search for problems which never were existing. the golden age of gaming is long over, when games were just created to be games and nothing else.

not everything is political, racist, or patriarchal, which makes my head boggle.
How come that games which were released in the 90s were done in a better way?


i remember the discussion about ff13 when people even on GAF tried to convince that black people should stay out of a FF game.(ff7 had a black character too and was released 1997)

cant we take that political stick out of the games ass?
dont make games into something they never were.

i like the female who are sometimes too sexy, and sometimes who look like a nun, i like the dude-bro-characters as well as the weeaboo-characters.

for a change, let there be LGBT characters or black/yellow/whatever characters without fearing that "sales" will drop or whatever.

i play the game, when it is good. if it has something, which has never been before, its even better.

You mean the black guy who is also the leader of a eco- terrorist group which fights against an evil corporation?

I mean, I think that's a political message as big as Shinra HQ

 

[HammerFace]

My point still stands. I feel this is one of those cases where it's forced for no reason.
Do we need a Metroid game with a male protagonist for a change? I don't get it. There's plenty of other Nintendo games with female leads but since it's not into that one...

But samus doesn't reincarnate like Link does. It's a continued story with the same character. In general there is an easy in-lore reason for why Link can be female. I mean Link's handed-ness even changes so it proves that each Link doesn't have to be an exact carbon-copy of the last one.

I remember in the old Link should be a girl threads people kept making the dumb comparison of "why don't you complain that "X character" isn't a female in the next game." And they just refused to understand that the character they're arguing doesn't become another person or maybe refused to acknowledge how that made them wrong.

 

[4 is a cutie]

Im bookmarking this thread for sure. Great OP!

 

[purdobol]

There has been a lot of discussion on The Witcher 3 and the lack of coloured people in it already but time and time again I see people like the author of this article equating diversity with skin colour. They are not the same. I find it really sad that a game heavily influenced by Slavic folklore and created by a people with such a rich and painful history is reduced to 'stories of white people'.

Underrated post. Context matters too.
Diversity for the sake of diversity isn't tha way to go.

Also it's worth mentioning that most of the discussions about this topic is negative. The approach of pick a game and criticize the hell of it for what it's not, creates a lot of hostility, which is unnecessary in my opinion.

 

[LotusHD]

But samus doesn't reincarnate like Link does. It's a continued story with the same character. In general there is an easy in-lore reason for why Link can be female. I mean Link's handed-ness even changes so it proves that each Link doesn't have to be an exact carbon-copy of the last one.

I remember in the old Link should be a girl threads people kept making the dumb comparison of "why don't you complain that "X character" isn't a female in the next game." And they just refused to understand that the character they're arguing doesn't become another person or maybe refused to acknowledge how that made them wrong.

"Let's have Maria instead of Mario"

But seriously this. People think others want a female Link just for the lols, when in actuality this is one of the few series that could justify it if the developers wanted to go down that route. Then you get vague comments from Aonuma, and Linkle being a thing, and of course people would get more and more receptive to the idea.

 

[Gotdatmoney]

Great opening.

In regards to Zelda, there is no reason why Link can't be a female but you'd be hard pressed to show me any major depiction of an iconic character straight up change genders. (I'm sure we will get some comic examples I'm sure) I don't really have an issue with them keeping Link male given he is depicted as male since his inception into gaming. All the Zelda hardcores know the story and the lore and etc etc but the average Zelda player doesn't know and or care about that shit. They just know the character Link is a boy and there is a sword and dungeons and shit. I'm sure we are going to get a playable female main character in a Zelda game at some point though.

Having said all that I think it's good for people to voice their wants. We are the game buying public, why shouldn't we say what we want?

 

[Aaronrules380]

But samus doesn't reincarnate like Link does. It's a continued story with the same character. In general there is an easy in-lore reason for why Link can be female. I mean Link's handed-ness even changes so it proves that each Link doesn't have to be an exact carbon-copy of the last one.

I remember in the old Link should be a girl threads people kept making the dumb comparison of "why don't you complain that "X character" isn't a female in the next game." And they just refused to understand that the character they're arguing doesn't become another person or maybe refused to acknowledge how that made them wrong.

Even beyond this, the "what if Samus became a guy" line of reasoning is infuriating and stupid because it ignores the societal context in which the decision is being made. Changing a character to an underrepresented group from an over represented one has entirely different social and ethical implications than the reverse

 

[Mael]

"Let's have Maria instead of Mario"

But seriously this. People think others want a female Link just for the lols, when in actuality this is one of the few series that could justify it if the developers wanted to go down that route. Then you get vague comments from Aonuma, and Linkle being a thing, and of course people would get more and more receptive to the idea.

For Mario, I think people really want to control Peach like they did in SMB2 or SM3DW...

I'd argue that Linkle is actually worse than just female Link or no one at all.
From what little I've seen she's a walking stereotype.
Can't find her way or whatever.
It's not that hard to make female characters that aren't total shit.

Even beyond this, the "what if Samus became a guy" line of reasoning is infuriating and stupid because it ignores the societal context in which the decision is being made. Changing a character to an underrepresented group from an over represented one has entirely different social and ethical implications than the reverse

Kinda like saying that Link can't be black or something.
You can have a fucking starship in a medieval setting but making a scenario where Link isn't a white boy is stretching it?

 

[HammerFace]

"Let's have Maria instead of Mario"

I seriously got flashbacks for a second lol

 

[Aaronrules380]

Underrated post. Context matters too.
Diversity for the sake of diversity isn't tha way to go.

Also it's worth mentioning that most of the discussions about this topic is negative. The approach of pick a game and criticize the hell of it for what it's not, creates a lot of hostility, which is unnecessary in my opinion.

This has way less to do with criticizing a single game and more to do with a problem that pervades the entire industry and using certain games and developers to highlight said issue

 

[daxgame]

Arguing for the status quo to remain because "its been that way for decades" is and will always be one of the worst possible arguments. The world's game was created in a certain way? It was created in an absolutely arbitrary way, and the only reason it doesnt change is not because it "cant" change, it is for, again, arbitrary reasons by the creators.

Look, I agree in principle with what you say. But it's an overreaction. Should the next Mario game have a female lead? Should Mario look african? Should one Metroid feature a man?
I mean... why? It seems that it needs to happen just to prove a point about it being otherwise sexist that isn't there in this case.

Personally, I'm more interested in fresh ideas instead of disrupting a 20 years old lore just for the sake of "see, we can put a female".
I'd like more stuff like Life is Strange, Another Code. I can happily share the "more games with a female avatar should be made" sentiment - but that's a different thing.
Or even just games where from scratch you can pick.

the train is the core of the game's narrative, it's everywhere in that game.
You can escape it no less than you can escape motion control in Skyward Sword.
Link being male is not the core of the saga at all.

At this point it just feels like things are the way you want to see them despite who made the game, so I won't bother with more answers.

His name was Link

But samus doesn't reincarnate like Link does. It's a continued story with the same character. In general there is an easy in-lore reason for why Link can be female. I mean Link's handed-ness even changes so it proves that each Link doesn't have to be an exact carbon-copy of the last one.

I remember in the old Link should be a girl threads people kept making the dumb comparison of "why don't you complain that "X character" isn't a female in the next game." And they just refused to understand that the character they're arguing doesn't become another person or maybe refused to acknowledge how that made them wrong.

But what does reincarnation have to do with the fact that "the hero" is always male? This doesn't really seem a good point to me, sorry.

 

[LotusHD]

For Mario, I think people really want to control Peach like they did in SMB2 or SM3DW...

I'd argue that Linkle is actually worse than just female Link or no one at all.
From what little I've seen she's a walking stereotype.
Can't find her way or whatever.
It's not that hard to make female characters that aren't total shit.

In my head, I could see Linkle working. The idea of a protagonist that embodies the mindset of "Fake it till you make it" sounds interesting to me. Where it's like nah girl, you are not the hero we've been waiting for, but she gets to prove herself anyways. Sort of like Wind Waker I guess, if I recall it correctly.

Also, I like her bowguns.

 

[LordKasual]

Kinda like saying that Link can't be black or something.
You can have a fucking starship in a medieval setting but making a scenario where Link isn't a white boy is stretching it?

Who said Link was a white boy lol

Male Samus is a stupid thing for obvious reasons. The whole awesome point about Samus was that everyone just assumed she was a dude until she wasn't. And then nothing changed.

Until Other M of course

 

[Ninjimbo]

I read about half of that post before I figured out that I never step into those kind of threads. Basically, if you have to point out such basic and obvious things to people, I think the conversation isn't worth having.

Good job OP. Hopefully it helps convince some people that arguing against diversity is really stupid. Unless they can give me some positives for a completely homogenous society.

 

[Mael]

At this point it just feels like things are the way you want to see them despite who made the game, so I won't bother with more answers.

His name was Link

THAT Link being male is not something I dispute.
That they can't make a Zelda game with a new Link being female is what I dispute.
The Legend span eons and they can't imagine making a game with Link being female?

In my head, I could see Linkle working. The idea of a protagonist that embodies the mindset of "Fake it till you make it" sounds interesting to me. Where it's like nah girl, you are not the hero we've been waiting for, but she gets to prove herself anyways. Sort of like Wind Waker I guess, if I recall it correctly.

Also, I like her bowguns.

That's actually very interesting and I would want a game focusing on that.
Kinda like that Tingle game where they really pushed that moneygrubbing angle.
That character falls apart if you have the actual hero running around doing stuffs.
The Hero of the wind angle worked in WW because there wasn't the hero of Time running around saving the day.
Then again that could be interesting....

Who said Link was a white boy lol

The fact that he has long ears doesn't change the stereotype...
Then again it could be the usual featureless character so Japanese audience assume he's like them while European think he look like them.
Still doesn't change that there's little to not have them spice things a lil bit there.
We can't even name Link anymore so might as well go all the way.

Male Samus is a stupid thing for obvious reasons. The whole awesome point about Samus was that everyone just assumed she was a dude until she wasn't. And then nothing changed.

Until Other M of course

Well in 1988 if you thought Samus was a dude, there wasn't much to contradict you.
Heck it didn't even matter in Metroid till that fucking Other M.

 

[HammerFace]

Look, I agree in principle with what you say. But it's an overreaction. Should the next Mario game have a female lead? Should Mario look african? Should one Metroid feature a man?
I mean... why? It seems that it needs to happen just to prove a point about it being otherwise sexist that isn't there in this case.

Are you serious..

But what does reincarnation have to do with the fact that "the hero" is always male? This doesn't really seem a good point to me, sorry.

I really hope you're joking.
But I'm gonna act like you're not and break it down. The fact that Link reincarnates means that he is not the same exact character in each game, hence why I mentioned the handedness. Therefore since he is not the same character in each game it is not a crazy jump to think that maybe Link can be a girl in one incarnation.

And the reason why Mario can't be black is because Mario is the same character in each game, or at least the foreseeable ones going forward, whereas that's not true for Link.

Heck it didn't even matter in Metroid till that fucking Other M.

But the baby tho

 

[Forceatowulf]

Fantastic stuff, OP. Well done.

 

[McBradders]

Bravo, op. Bravo.

 

[Clear]

This has way less to do with criticizing a single game and more to do with a problem that pervades the entire industry and using certain games and developers to highlight said issue

The entire industry is not American, and thus does not share the same cultural experience and politics as contemporary America. This absolutely needs to be factored in because you cannot expect a global industry to change in lockstep when the voices lobbying for change are simply not going to be heard or given great import due to barriers of culture and language.

Culture of origin influences all art and entertainment, no matter how benign the intent you cannot expect every work to conform to your native socio-political norms.

 

[isaacnukem]

Which will happen first, a female Link or a female Doctor?

So Zelda couldn't ever be a protagonist of a LoZ game because Link is always the link between the player and the game?

 

[Gotdatmoney]

The entire industry is not American, and thus does not share the same cultural experience and politics as contemporary America.

What was the last game you played where there were no white people in it at all?

This absolutely needs to be factored in because you cannot expect a global industry to change in lockstep when the voices lobbying for change are simply not going to be heard or given great import due to barriers of culture and language.

Isn't the point of topics like this to raise that awareness? Should we not point it out because "oh the game was made in Europe where less minorities live so even if the developers are gonna try and sell it to people overseas that shouldn't matter. Also, RE5 was not racist because they couldn't have known better"

This isn't a real argument. This is a global world, if they want minorities to buy their products they can fucking educate themselves. It's not my problem that they wanna sell me a $70 game but be exempt from social criticism where they are selling it. Can they have black people with spears and war paint and that's fine now because racism isn't a "big deal" in that portion of Europe?

Culture of origin influences all art and entertainment, no matter how benign the intent you cannot expect every work to conform to your native socio-political norms.

Minorities have been playing video games since day fucking one. You really gonna pull that bullshit that "we" are expecting video games to conform to our norms? You fucking serious?

 

[purdobol]

This has way less to do with criticizing a single game and more to do with a problem that pervades the entire industry and using certain games and developers to highlight said issue

Highlighting the issue is ok. Creating controversy out of every little thing is not.
This should be approached constructively. Would rather see a petition from women made regarding their beloved franchise. And some positive articles on the matter that praise titles that did good in diversity category.

Something in vein of "It would be cool if [insert franchise here] had female protagonist. Lets explore possibilities here!". Instead of "In [insert game/franchise here] all women are portrayed as sex objects! It's wrong and unacceptable!".

It reminds me of all those "controversies" from the past regarding violence in videogames and their impact on young mind.

Highlighting good examples of games that do diversity well, will yield greater results than highlithing the bad and fighting with industry to make a point.

 

[Squire]

Literally was in the process of making this thread but this'll do and is likely better than I would've come up with.. Seriously, having to explain basic human rights and feminism 101 to disengenous people who are the target audience gets incredibly tiring, especially recently. Like come the fuck on, you KNOW exactly why the objectification of women in games is wrong yet try to phrase it with bullshit questions like "What's wrong with sexy women in gamez?" Bookmarking this thread for future use.

Not immediately villainizing designers/artists for sexy designs = "objectification is A-OK/feminism is dumb lol"

No need to actually try and refute arguments and address perspectives that differ from your own. Smug shitposts are all we need since everything apparently boils down to "human rights and feminism 101." It's not at all like feminism is itself many schools of thought or anything.

I too look forward to future disingenuousness and bad faith arguments on your part.

 

[nickgia]

Creators should make the things they want to make.
People should buy the things that resonate with them.

 

[Dinda]

Great Thread and i absolutely agree with your points.

 

[Not]

Thread should be required reading for anyone who wants a GAF account. With a quiz afterward.

 

[HammerFace]

Creators should make the things they want to make.
People should buy the things that resonate with them.

And people should criticize what they feel is wrong or bad.

 

[Gotdatmoney]

Not immediately villainizing designers/artists for sexy designs = "objectification is A-OK/feminism is dumb lol"

Designers should be held to a higher standard when they develop characters because this shit often reinforces harmful stereotypes that actually are damaging to women. Sexualization itself isn't necessarily a bad thing except so many characters and games do it is one sided. No one is saying you can't enjoy your hyper sexualization or your tits and ass, they are saying in the grand scheme of gaming as a whole some of these things "can" create a poisonous environment for women.

No need to actually try and refute arguments and address perspectives that differ from your own. Smug shitposts are all we need since everything apparently boils down to "human rights and feminism 101." It's not at all like feminism is itself many schools of thought or anything.

I too look forward to future disingenuousness and bad faith arguments on your part.

Oh, it was just personal. Nm

 

[Not]

Which will happen first, a female Link or a female Doctor?

So Zelda couldn't ever be a protagonist of a LoZ game because Link is always the link between the player and the game?

I love how a lot of game developers can be so incredibly imaginative right up until "main hero has lady parts"

 

[Squire]

Designers should be held to a higher standard when they develop characters because this shit often reinforces harmful stereotypes that actually are damaging to women. Sexualization itself isn't necessarily a bad thing except so many characters and games do it is one sided. No one is saying you can't enjoy your hyper sexualization or your tits and ass, they are saying in the grand scheme of gaming as a whole some of these things "can" create a poisonous environment for women.

Oh, it was just personal. Nm

It's a little personal, yes. I agree with you, I mean, that's the exact case I've been making in the "recent" threads CE is referencing in his post. Apparently I'm quite wrong and the argument isn't as nuanced as you put it.

 

[Gotdatmoney]

It's a little personal, yes. I agree with you, I mean, that's the exact case I've been making in the "recent" threads CE is referencing in his post. Apparently I'm quite wrong and the argument isn't as nuanced as you put it.

As far as sexualization in gaming is concerned my whole issue is that everything is just designed primarily for a male audience that is assumed to just have fucking zero attention span unless tits and ass are just everywhere. Like I enjoy tits and ass (not really in gaming because it's just fucking stupid in this medium) but it's so overdone and it's everywhere. I don't have a problem if people like their sex. It's just a normal part of the human experience, but the way it is now in gaming and how one sided it is actually embarrasses me.

 

[balgajo]

Very good OP! Except for Zelda thing(I get that the argument is bullshit)I really agree.

I think that Zelda has to be called when portraying characters in a bad way. And not because it doesn't have a female protagonist. People like Link as the main character and are really attached to him. That's all.
TLOZ is to Link the same that Samus is to Metroid. Fuck that reincarnation bullshit, people just want to play as Link.

 

[Lime]

Llyrwenne, I love you.

 

[HammerFace]

Very good OP! Except for Zelda thing(I get that the argument is bullshit)I really agree.

I think that Zelda has to be called when portraying characters in a bad way. And not because it doesn't have a female protagonist. People like Link as the main character and are really attached to him. That's all.
TLOZ is to Link the same that Samus is to Metroid. Fuck that reincarnation bullshit, people just want to play as Link.

What does having a female link really change though?

 

[Htown]

The entire industry is not American, and thus does not share the same cultural experience and politics as contemporary America. This absolutely needs to be factored in because you cannot expect a global industry to change in lockstep when the voices lobbying for change are simply not going to be heard or given great import due to barriers of culture and language.

Culture of origin influences all art and entertainment, no matter how benign the intent you cannot expect every work to conform to your native socio-political norms.

I just wonder why all these games from across the world manage to pull all manner of inspiration from the entertainment portion of other cultures, but when it comes to diversity and representation we're supposed to assume that every country outside of the US is a tiny isolationist culture.

 

[Not]

Objectification is fine; sex is fine; nudity is fine; ridiculous and even gross fantasies are probably fine too.

It's the one-sidedness about which gender is objectified in practice that's always been the issue.

Very good OP! Except for Zelda thing(I get that the argument is bullshit)I really agree.

I think that Zelda has to be called when portraying characters in a bad way. And not because it doesn't have a female protagonist. People like Link as the main character and are really attached to him. That's all.
TLOZ is to Link the same that Samus is to Metroid. Fuck that reincarnation bullshit, people just want to play as Link.

Is that the most crucial thing about playing a Zelda game to you? What if like the world's shittiest Zelda game came out? Would you be like, "fuck it, at least I'm Link?"

 

[Zakalwe]

Personally, I'm more interested in fresh ideas instead of disrupting a 20 years old lore just for the sake of "see, we can put a female".
I'd like more stuff like Life is Strange, Another Code. I can happily share the "more games with a female avatar should be made" sentiment - but that's a different thing.
Or even just games where from scratch you can pick.

Sure, but why would it bother you so much if the next Mario or Zelda had a female lead? You've already had xx games in the series with male leads, it wouldn't harm you and it /would push diversity.

As I said before, it's much harder to launch a new character, and while we shouldn't expect every single developer to make this kind of change it would definitely be a wonderful gesture if one of the more prominent ones did.

Objectification is fine; sex is fine; nudity is fine; ridiculous and even gross fantasies are probably fine too.

It's the one-sidedness about which gender is objectified in practice that's always been the issue.



Is that the most crucial thing about playing a Zelda game to you? What if like the world's shittiest Zelda game came out? Would you be like, "fuck it, at least I'm Link?"

Yeh, that's a pretty shitty argument.

I mean, it really equates to "the comfort I get from seeing my old character return as he was is more important than diversity", which is weak as hell.

And, again, I don't even think this /should/ happen, but it /would/ be a wonderful gesture. I've no idea why anyone would be against it unless they have an agenda opposed to diversity or they're simply being selfish.

 

[Clear]

Isn't the point of topics like this to raise that awareness?

Yes, and that's not the issue I'm raising, nor something I have any problem with whatsoever.

The point is that you cannot expect the Japanese industry to change at anything like the same rate as the American one. Expecting say, Nintendo, to react to commentary and adapt in the same way that Sony's first party studios in the US and Europe are doing is unrealistic.

Just saying, there are truly positive steps being taken, but patience and understanding is required due to the specificity of culture, and I hate reading people lumping everything together and talking like things aren't getting better generally when they are. It just diminishes the gains being made.

 

[Lime]

The entire industry is not American, and thus does not share the same cultural experience and politics as contemporary America. This absolutely needs to be factored in because you cannot expect a global industry to change in lockstep when the voices lobbying for change are simply not going to be heard or given great import due to barriers of culture and language.

Culture of origin influences all art and entertainment, no matter how benign the intent you cannot expect every work to conform to your native socio-political norms.

Japanese & European developers perpetuate incredibly similar tendencies of sexism and racism that US & Canadian developers do in their games and their work environment.

 

[LotusHD]

Is that the most crucial thing about playing a Zelda game to you? What if like the world's shittiest Zelda game came out? Would you be like, "fuck it, at least I'm Link?"

I wonder how many people would legitimately not buy the next Zelda game if Link was a girl instead.

 

[OniBarubary]

Brava. This is a fantastic OP and truly encapsulates a lot of the annoyance and frustration I have with these topics in Gaming Side lately.

 

[Zakalwe]

I wonder how many people would legitimately not buy the next Zelda game if Link was a girl instead.

Not enough for it to matter overall.

Brava. This is a fantastic OP and truly encapsulates a lot of the annoyance and frustration I have with these topics in Gaming Side lately.

It really is a great thread. After spending the last few days getting quite depressed about the state of everything, it's good to read such well thought out and defiant/hopeful thoughts.