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[Jedi2016]

Well, he's not wrong, but he is talking about a very specific aspect of VR that I also don't really give two shits about, although I'm a strong proponent of VR and I'm pissing myself in anticipation of getting my Oculus Rift.

While video games are being used as a kick-off point for VR (I think mostly due to the already-existing architecture of 3D rendering in real-time), the actual applications go far beyond that. In the end (assuming this takes off), I think gaming will be the little niche use for VR, and the majority of it will be things like virtual tours and those non-interactive "experiences" that hardcore gamers get so antsy about. And plenty of other applications that I can't even think of yet.

 

[aeolist]

i totally agree that the experiences he's worried about will probably be really shitty and socially damaging for people who get into them

i'm just glad i have no interest in them whatsoever and i really just want tons of indie VR games

 

[Dr. Buni]

I think the point he's trying to make is that this could make local multiplayer gone over time.

Yup.

As someone who doesn't give a shit about local multiplayer, this supposedly negative aspect of VR doesn't bother me in the slightest.

 

[Maedhros]

I hate society, so VR sounds great to me.

 

[Shiggie]

I totally get his point. the simple fact that you are covering your eyes and ears and being emersed in anything is alienating. the fact that Facebook has this addictive quality and, MMOs have a similar gambling like hook to them, it's easy to see a worst case scenario.

 

[AEREC]

I can see where he is coming from. On one hand VR sounds like a really exciting experience, on the other hand I can see it pushing people who are already somewhat detached from reality even further away.

I'm excited for VR but it really is a step backwards for social interaction ("social" interaction in MMORPGS don't count).

 

[Kirye]

I slightly agree with him. Not completely on all of his views, but mostly that VR is anti-social. Reading this thread, I can assume that most people disagree with that view, and that's fine.

I think i'm just too old and have been playing games for way too long where I don't wanna go towards the next step in gaming evolution.

 

[ScatheZombie]

The biggest mass market problem with VR has never been the tech or the immersion or the anti-social aspects or even the cost.

It's always been and continues to be: People don't want to put shit on their face.

It was a major problem with in-home 3D as well. And that's just glasses, not half a PC strapped to your head. Until they solve this fundamental problem (holodeck), or convince the average person that this is something they want to do (and good luck with that, considering we had to make a law for force people to wear helmets while speeding down the highway at 90 mph on a motorcycle), VR will always be a niche product for a niche market.

 

[DSix]

I want it even more now. Fuck you extroverts.

 

[SystemUser]

So this guy would think a VR MMORPG which would be a perfect duplicate of reality would be socially isolating.

What?

As I have mentioned multiple times, I find the limited, formalized, abstracted and ultimately alienated social interactions in most forms of online gaming to be immensely off-putting.

He doesn't think it can be a duplicate of reality. He thinks it would be less like The Matrix and it would more like the cyberspace in William Gibson's Bridge Trilogy or the Metaverse from Snow Crash.


I think what most people ultimately from VR is want to be able to go to the Holodeck from Star Trek with their friends.


Also I don't necessarily agree with him that the nature of online gaming interactions are alienating. While I do know and know of WoW players that are anti-social; it would be hard to argue that it does not require actual social interaction to put together and coordinate a group of 25 or 40 people.


I don't see how VR will be more antisocial than watching a movie or watching TV. Netflix marathon viewings were pretty accurately described by Plato's Cave metaphor.


I think this guy is at least 100 years too late to halt the brakes. The most powerful nation is mostly fat antisocial assholes already.

 

[BRocknRolla]

I admittedly share the same concerns over VR. Just the thought of me sitting on the couch, totally isolated from the outside world while my family goes on living around me is somewhat troubling. At the very least, it seems very rude. At the extreme I can see where this writer is getting "antisocial." VR may be a very fascinating technology, but I don't know that I want it to become the standard. It's more of a problem with society than the tech though.

 

[Kai Dracon]

The biggest mass market problem with VR has never been the tech or the immersion or the anti-social aspects or even the cost.

It's always been and continues to be: People don't want to put shit on their face.

It was a major problem with in-home 3D as well. And that's just glasses, not half a PC strapped to your head. Until they solve this fundamental problem (holodeck), or convince the average person that this is something they want to do (and good luck with that, considering we had to make a law for force people to wear helmets while speeding down the highway at 90 mph on a motorcycle), VR will always be a niche product for a niche market.

Yep. The desire to escape reality and other people may not be strong enough in the average person to push VR goggles into the true mainstream.

AR in the form of essentially normal looking glasses (not Google Glass) may be the only way to get the average person on board with any kind of virtual overlay on reality, until the cited holodeck becomes a reality.

 

[Figments]

Sigh, I guess I'll do it if noone else will

That image is ... really, really sad, actually.

I hope that's the joke.

I don't get what's the problem about gaming being "anti-social". Reading is as anti-social as it can gets and nobody complains.

I don't want everything I do to be "social". Sometimes you just want to sit, switch on your console and play ALONE a good game for a while. For those moments VR is totally fine.

There are nice co-op focused games (be local or on-line) that I could play with my friends when I feel like doing it. And I doubt they're going to disappear suddenly even if VR takes off.

That's a really shitty comparison. One does not experience games the same way they do books. They're fundamentally different ways of consuming fiction.

EDIT: Reading is also fundamentally a social experience. Books are meant to be shared and talked about. They're how we come to understand language and interpretation.

Great. More anti social the better.

Augmented reality can go die in a fire. I'm suspicious of people who are too interested in mundane things around them that they have no reason to need information on. Especially if they think that it empowers them. Its sounds more psychopathic and dangerous than enjoying a good old fashioned anti social entertainment experience.

What? What kind of logic is that?

"Being too interested in the real world is psychopathic."

Huh?

VR /is/ a dangerous technology from a moral standpoint, even a medical one if you really want to go that route. The minute you'd rather eschew all ties to reality is the moment when you've given up on the real world.

That sounds more crazy to me than someone who likes reality.

This thread is all kinds of crazy.

 

[plagiarize]

I admittedly share the same concerns over VR. Just the thought of me sitting on the couch, totally isolated from the outside world while my family goes on living around me is somewhat troubling. At the very least, it seems very rude. At the extreme I can see where this writer is getting "antisocial." VR may be a very fascinating technology, but I don't know that I want it to become the standard. It's more of a problem with society than the tech though.

It doesn't work like that. You don't stop being aware of people around you. You aren't in a coma. I was driving around Monza a couple of nights ago in a Lotus 49 while having a conversation with my wife and our guest about what to do for dinner.

You aren't isolated and unaware when playing something in VR unless you make yourself that way.

The biggest mass market problem with VR has never been the tech or the immersion or the anti-social aspects or even the cost.

It's always been and continues to be: People don't want to put shit on their face.

It was a major problem with in-home 3D as well. And that's just glasses, not half a PC strapped to your head. Until they solve this fundamental problem (holodeck), or convince the average person that this is something they want to do (and good luck with that, considering we had to make a law for force people to wear helmets while speeding down the highway at 90 mph on a motorcycle), VR will always be a niche product for a niche market.

People put on safety goggles when they partake in lots of sports. It's about the value of the experience vs the discomfort of the equipment. Millions of people put on light 3D glasses every day to watch a movie, and VR headsets are only going to get more comfortable and lighter in time.

Yes, we had to make a law to force people to wear helmets while riding a motorbike... but how many people stopped riding motorbikes because of that law? You're massively overstating this issue.

 

[fabricated backlash]

How would you know shes back with VR on?
Someone could break into your house and you wouldn't notice.

Good thing there's nothing to steal, with the exception of that expensive VR goggles on my head.

 

[plagiarize]

Good thing there's nothing to steal, with the exception of that expensive VR goggles on my head.

I hear my wife get home when I'm playing a VR game with headphones. Granted, one time she came home a couple of hours early and scared the crap out of me when she shut the door (actual heart palpitations) but I absolutely knew someone was in the house.

 

[PlumCantaloupe]

This is a really great perspective on VR from the other side. The only one pushing for "real-life" social gaming anymore is Nintendo; and it seems so many are knocking them for that. It does seem inevitable but it will likely only become a problem once it is too late as per many technological advances in human history ...

 

[7DollarHagane]

In some ways VR feels unnessecary to me and kind of egregious even for videogames.

I get that its more immersive but it feels like missing the point? I play games for fun game play systems or interesting worlds and stories. Both of those are accomplished now with control, sound ,and visual design on a 2d screen.

I don't think it'll really be for me as I don't like mmo games and I think the kind of fps games I play would be better suited to a normal screen experience.

Plus from what I've tried of it the field of view is really limited and wearing glasses with a headset is very uncomfortable.

 

[PlumCantaloupe]

In some ways VR feels unnessecary to me and kind of egregious even for videogames.

I get that its more immersive but it feels like missing the point? I play games for fun game play systems or interesting worlds and stories. Both of those are accomplished now with control, sound ,and visual design on a 2d screen.

I don't think it'll really be for me as I don't like mmo games and I think the kind of fps games I play would be better suited to a normal screen experience.

Plus from what I've tried of it the field of view is really limited and wearing glasses with a headset is very uncomfortable.

This is a really great point! But one that will lost, at least in the short term I fear.

And yes the FOV is absolutely horrendous (imagine looking out a scuba helmet); but it doesn't bother everyone as much, and will likely get better very soon.

I find the tech interesting but I am waiting for people to build something new for it; as opposed to trying to shoehorn existing experiences onto it.

 

[POWERSPHERE]

VR: The Loser Haven - confirmed

 

[gafneo]

I disagree that it's going to lead into more antisocialism. The TV is sharing the image to the living room, people seem to be laughing over the intense moments that occur. In a way, the less immersive a game is, the less reaction you will get, leaving you emotionless. The emotionless experience is from playing idol in a chair, staring straight into one direction for hours. That's like preparing for an audition to be a stone faced assassin.

In some cases, It will have a similar impact on the youth as games today already have. The quiet will just have another excuse to remain in the house. I think if it did promote a deeper form of antisocial behavior, people would wake up and realize the internet has already become the most addictive drug in America, and that VR is a minor gateway drug in comparison.

 

[POWERSPHERE]

This is a really great perspective on VR from the other side. The only one pushing for "real-life" social gaming anymore is Nintendo; and it seems so many are knocking them for that. It does seem inevitable but it will likely only become a problem once it is too late as per many technological advances in human history ...

this is a large part why I love Nintendo. They get and respect the most fun part of gaming

 

[Exploding8]

This "argument" that we're going to end up in some dystopian future because of VR sounds really familiar. The argument to me sounds like "EVERYONE is going to end up in Virtual Reality ALL THE TIME and its gonna kill SOCIETY and people are going to become ANTI-SOCIAL VEGETABLES". Just like Rock music, comic books, and videogames before it.

Virtual reality isn't even a thing yet. Maybe there will be issues with it. Or maybe there won't be. We'll deal with that when the time comes. Why do we have to start flipping out about how its going to end civilization as we know it before people even really have their hands on it? Because we're afraid of ending up in the Matrix?

The irony of course being that the Matrix and ideas like it aren't real so there's no reason to assume that's how things will turn out.

 

[Chezzymann]

I don't understand how playing a VR game is any less social than playing a game in front of a monitor or TV.

You close off reality around you with VR, unlike a TV. Heck, at least for me, most games I play in front of a TV are split screen and involve a lot of socializing.

 

[Dire]

VR, like any proponent technology is based around the software that supports it. His claims of the "MMORPG-cyberpunk" direction is so narrow-minded that the same principle could be said for your standard consoles dual-analogs are supportive of first-person shooters only and how many console developers are striving to establish that gameplay feature as it's core. But we all know that they diversity of experience is independently attributed to who's buying it.

This is a weak dismissive excuse for the VR argument. It only showcases the lack of awareness of consumer diverse interest in favor of a broad view of what VR could be according to his theory.

I believe you're missing his overall point. It's not about this exact one application but the concept of the application - about VR potentially beginning to build a sort of dystopia. It's an interesting thought actually. I imagine the addiction levels for VR will be unprecedented when we start getting the software built that can support it. VR already literally makes you feel like you're somewhere else - with the addition of more immersive hardware peripherals and capable software there's no real reason that somewhere could not be anywhere you want it to be. It's an enormous leap towards vast realms of sci fi. It eventually will even enable stuff like punitive VR a la every single sci fi series worth its salt. The possibilities there are as unlimited as they are unpleasant. And this is all going to be unleashed in a world where the simple accumulation of fiat currency, even when it comes at the expense of others - or at the bare minimum involving complete disregard for others, is still considered a reasonable style of life.

Of course I have 0 objections whatsoever. AR/VR can and will lead to many negative things, but the positive possibilities it opens up completely dwarf that concern.

 

[down 2 orth]

He's correct that it is anti-social, but so are the best game experiences I've had.

Exactly this. If I wanted social experiences, I would call up my friends and ask what they're doing.

 

[Seanspeed]

Tell me what's incorrect about the very core concept of VR being the pure focus of a singular sensory sensation of a single participant? That's what even makes it appealing in the first place.
If you dilute this core principle, then why even pursue VR in the first place?

From there on, it's implementation, but the core is a very egoistical affair.

Again, nothing wrong with that in principle either, I just want to point out that it's dishonest to downplay that.

Because you can have plenty of shared, multi-user experiences in VR.

Again, its absolutely impossible to even imagine the long term applications, so its ridiculous to say what VR is or isnt in such a primitive stage of development.

 

[Charles Alan Ratliff]

Just pump the nutrient-rich sludge into me and let me live in my fantasy worlds.

 

[EscapingJail]

Sigh, I guess I'll do it if noone else will

I was waiting for this lol

 

[nib95]

There is definitely an element of anti-socialism involved in VR usage, but by that same token, it's also considerably more immersive and in that respect worth the trade off. When you're at the cinema, you don't exactly expect the lights to be turned back on, or people to start yapping away, just because it's more sociable.

 

[tengiants]

I want it even more now. Fuck you extroverts.

This isn't a matter of introversion and extroversion. An introvert is someone who might retreat into books, take a walk in the park by themselves, perhaps play some oculus rift sometimes, and just needs time alone. VR is on a whole other level.

Side note. The potential of subliminal messaging/hypnosis etc that could be done with complete sensory control like this is just scary in itself. I will be extremely careful about what glasses I will be putting on my head personally.

 

[Deleted member 752119]

Social rejects are going to be social rejects regardless of how they choose to escape. If they spend hours and hours in VR shut off from the world that's no different than shutting themselves of away playing WoW, single player games or reading or watching tv etc.

I have little interest in VR personally, but don't see it as some bad thing for society. I'm just not into full immersion or being shutoff from things. I multitask more than focusing on any one thing.

 

[M3d10n]

Can't wait to see people's negative reactions when we get Ghost in the Shell style internet enabled brain implants.

 

[Hale-XF11]

This guy has obviously never tried Riftmax Theater, where people gather to hang out in VR online.

Even with that aside, VR seems no more anti-social to me than sitting in my computer chair in my bedroom and playing video games like I do now.

 

[down 2 orth]

Side note. The potential of subliminal messaging/hypnosis etc that could be done with complete sensory control like this is just scary in itself. I will be extremely careful about what glasses I will be putting on my head personally.

Could you explain this in a little more detail please? Or link, or whatever. I haven't heard about that before.

 

[Fafalada]

Can't wait to see people's negative reactions when we get Ghost in the Shell style internet enabled brain implants.

It's entirely possible we won't need implants for that - just attachments (not sure which people would react worse to though). But assuming they work well the impact will likely be so profound and so fast people won't have time for negative reactions.

 

[tengiants]

Could you explain this in a little more detail please? Or link, or whatever. I haven't heard about that before.

I don't have any links or anything, just speculating on the fact that inducing a hypnotic state would be very easy with this technology. Just look at the traditional techniques on wikipedia, and it's not hard to see how the exact type of sensory info provided by VR would be perfect for hypnosis.

Imagine advertisers having access to our hypnotized brains. It seems like something to be weary about.

 

[Dire]

Can't wait to see people's negative reactions when we get Ghost in the Shell style internet enabled brain implants.

New incredible Ghost in the Shell OVA for anybody who wasn't aware: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost_in_the_Shell:_Arise

The most mature adaptation yet in my opinion. Oddly enough on topic as a huge theme throughout is the balance and intertwining between VR and reality.

 

[a secret-boss]

this is how u bring Japanese gamers back to console.

Monster Hunter; Waifu Edtion PS4

 

[down 2 orth]

I don't have any links or anything, just speculating on the fact that inducing a hypnotic state would be very easy with this technology. Just look at the traditional techniques on wikipedia, and it's not hard to see how the exact type of sensory info provided by VR would be perfect for hypnosis.

Imagine advertisers having access to our hypnotized brains. It seems like something to be weary about.

Thanks. Still too many gaps for me to make a conclusion, but either way I won't be buying Facebook brand VR.

 

[M3d10n]

Honestly, I think VR will be a niche due to the isolation thing. However, in order for us to get proper AR we need VR to thrive and evolve.

Endgame AR would be the ultimate convergence device: the glasses would replace smartphones, tablets, laptops and even TVs (virtual screens). Seamless virtual space sharing would also enhance local social experiences (example: sharing whatever you're viewing with everyone in the same room or playing a game of virtual table tennis).

 

[Tetranet]

I don't have any links or anything, just speculating on the fact that inducing a hypnotic state would be very easy with this technology. Just look at the traditional techniques on wikipedia, and it's not hard to see how the exact type of sensory info provided by VR would be perfect for hypnosis.

Imagine advertisers having access to our hypnotized brains. It seems like something to be weary about.

And people talk about surgically implanted brain implants... Sci-fi warns, but who listens.

This reminds me of ritalin being mentioned in a thread the other day.

 

[YuShtink]

First of all, you don't have to play with headphones blasting so you can't hear anything else. If you want total, 100% absolute immersion then yes it's the best possible experience. But I play on my DK1 with speakers a lot of the time and it's still crazy immersive and FAR superior to playing on a flat screen. Even if you have headphones on you can keep the volume to a normal level where you can hear if someone around you in your house is calling to you.

And jesus guys, it's not that hard to pause the game and lift the damn goggles off your eyes. If it's time to do something social you just stop playing. It's not like you're in a coma. VR tech will allow for some really rich social experiences and some really rich solitary experiences too. And the solitary ones aren't inherently a bad thing.

Are some irresponsible people going to abuse it? Of course, irresponsible people abuse every diversion known to man. Should that keep the near limitless potential of the tech out of the hands of billions of responsible people?

 

[MomoPufflet]

Honestly, as an adult, I can't remember the last time I even had the opportunity to sit next to someone and play a game. I've pretty much played alone or online with friends since I got out of school. I don't have friends coming over all the time and most of my friends don't even live near me, and further the friends near me usually don't want to play the same games as me (if they game at all). I can respect his stance on the matter but for me this issue doesn't affect me one iota. If you'd asked me this when I was in high school with gamer friends on tap I might have felt differently.

 

[The Maverick]

If people want to be alone, in a virtual world or not, there's no stopping them. VR is just another option. It isn't inherently antisocial. But if people want to use it as such, then it will happen. And there's nothing that a former developer, writer, family member, or friend can't do to stop the progression.

 

[James Coote]

Again, your personal preference about the potential household applications does not take away from the fact that they are household applications. You could be right that these applications won't move units, but we don't know where the technology is heading. IBM didn't believe in personal computing for instance, and sure enough, at the time there weren't many compelling arguments to pursue such a venture. Hell, personal computers in its infancy didn't have much application outside of gaming either, yet Apple didn't have much trouble pitching its products to consumers. Since then a lot of things have happened in the PC space, but I really doubt any of those early companies had a clear vision back then that even remotely resembles what we have now. The same could happen to VR.

The reason I'm skeptical is because VR in the home is a solution without a problem. Whereas with the industrial applications, it's immediately obvious what problems VR could solve for companies. So VR in the home is really just for entertainment, and it doesn't make the music sound better or film look better. It does improve games or allow for gaming experiences that aren't possible without it though, hence why it's great for gamers, but a bit meh for everyone else.

 

[jbartee]

The real question here is why so many of you negatively evaluate "anti-social." Social is great, but there's so much more out there to explore.

I don't want social experiences from VR. I want to journey deep into the alien unknown. An almost religious experience; a monastic retreat for pyschotronic exploration; a soul technology for machine-mediated astral travel; a trance circuit that explodes the mind into so many fractal mirrors.

Which, incidentally, basically puts me on this dude's side of the argument, insofar as I'm just as unhappy about the looming ad-fueled MMORPG Second Life-alike MyFriendBook future as he is.

 

[YuShtink]

The reason I'm skeptical is because VR in the home is a solution without a problem. Whereas with the industrial applications, it's immediately obvious what problems VR could solve for companies. So VR in the home is really just for entertainment, and it doesn't make the music sound better or film look better. It does improve games or allow for gaming experiences that aren't possible without it though, hence why it's great for gamers, but a bit meh for everyone else.

360 degree Camera rigs with binaural audio are already in development. Imagine being able to "watch" your favorite band's concert from the front row, or on the stage, or both. Or sitting in the middle of all of them while they jam in studio. Or being right on the sideline at a sporting event. Why do we have to observe these events through little digital windows when you can feel like you are RIGHT THERE in full 3D with 3D sound?

 

[ZombieSupaStar]

I bet someone thought cell phones were antisocial at some point. Seems shortsighted as fuck. Pretty disappointing for someone whose career involves technology and innovation.

working at a university for 10 years I was from the 2000 to 2010 when smartphones and texing took off, and it seemed more and more like the incoming students talked less, and were generally less social , and more with their head buried in a texting chat. More shy I guess? It's pulled from my experience (so pretty much my ass) but its what I saw. I worked in I.T. and desktop support a lot so I had a lot of interactions daily with people. I guess I could have been the same, Ive just always had jobs (retail, front line I.T. stuff) that forced me to talk to people and be outgoing, it just became easy to me, and easier to pick up on those that weren't.

 

[Yarbskoo]

Real life social interaction is overrated anyway. I, for one, welcome our new virtual waifu overworlds.

Assuming the end game of VR is a completely immersive matrix-like, I hope I'm around to see it.