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[ZombieSupaStar]

Assuming the end game of VR is a completely immersive matrix-like, I hope I'm around to see it.

Which is why this is all a bit overhyped to me, I want matrix level human/machine fusion. But being a cyberpunk junky, itll be neat to walk around "virtual worlds" even if its just the same lcd monitor just an inch from my face now instead of 36.

 

[LocalE]

I think it will be more social to be honest. If you will be able to interact with people in virtual reality like you in real life then what's the difference really? Effectively there's none.
That's why I thought Matrix was built on such a bullshit premise. if you have perfect simulation of reality and everybody is in there.... then what's the problem really? How is it any different?

Well, because in that case your simulation of reality is constructed and curated for the sole purpose of tapping your physical existence as a resource. Constructed and curated by a human, or possibly by an AI created by a human. At its core, it is not genuine.

Maybe there are gods to blame for our present reality and it is no more genuine than a Matrix style situation. If we can never know, then it makes no appreciable difference, I suppose. But once one does know...I personally feel it would be less than satisfying to live considering that all the details of one's life are contingent upon the whims or rationalizations of some being who is using you to achieve some purpose of its own.

In our real world (if real world it truly be..)...
As headset wearing meatbags who provide clicks and have bank accounts, whoever is creating and curating the reality will be looking to extract those resources from our possession to theirs. The money behind the development of the tech and the creation of the content will be looking for the ways to most efficiently extract the users money.
Such a brave new world that hath such people in it.

Perhaps what they provide will be totally worth it and whatever amount of wealth they are able to redistribute to themselves will be considered a fair price for what we, as humanity and the individuals that comprise it, gain in the bargain.
Perhaps not. Time will tell.

 

[Goldmund]

I think we're building a prison for narcissists with VR. I can't wait for it to be here. They'll only have themselves and their petty desires and we'll have the world and the world will have us.

 

[Yarbskoo]

As headset wearing meatbags who provide clicks and have bank accounts, whoever is creating and curating the reality will be looking to extract those resources from our possession to theirs. The money behind the development of the tech and the creation of the content will be looking for the ways to most efficiently extract the users money.

It sounds to me like you're just describing the state of things as they already are. Take away the part about a headset and you're pretty much talking about the world as it already exists.

 

[grumble]

He is right. The endpoint of this is a lot of people subsisting on a pathetic substitute for real social interaction. I foresee a lot of people feeling depressed and not being sure why.

 

[Dash Kappei]

Fox News Headline: VR too good and possibly addictive, are your kids at risk?

It'll happen sooner or later.

Too tame of a title for FOX, let me try to fix that:

"VR Creator says he wants no part in socially-destructive VR tech anymore: VR is bad news, addicting and will make our kids lonely outcast with no will to live #OBAMACARE"

 

[Imperfected]

Well, it certainly didn't take long for this thread to go from practical considerations and concerns to pie-in-the-sky moralizing and philosophical pedantry. Going to have to keep an eye on this one in hopes of more Jaden Smith-level profundity.

The only really interesting thing to me from the original material is that apparently this individual (who already had misgivings about the potentially antisocial nature of online gaming) didn't have any issues with AR. I'm not sure if that's simply due to a lack of imagination on his part, or is indicative of a tectonic shift away from AR in R&D rendering it a non-concern.

 

[Savitar]

Considering how co op and various online connections are added to these games and tend to make things worse I look forward to any device that reduces such things.

 

[Alucrid]

soon

 

[Messofanego]

As someone who is disabled, a lot of his complaints are exactly why I look forward to getting into VR. It will allow me to experience things I would normally never get to experience.

And for older people who can't even walk outside as therapy. Bunch of promise for this realm.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5eIHyFYFMM

The Oculus Rift team donates a dev kit so that my grandmother can experience the outside world from inside her home.

For some reason, her favorite part was just being able to walk up the stairs.​

 

[JNT]

The reason I'm skeptical is because VR in the home is a solution without a problem. Whereas with the industrial applications, it's immediately obvious what problems VR could solve for companies. So VR in the home is really just for entertainment, and it doesn't make the music sound better or film look better. It does improve games or allow for gaming experiences that aren't possible without it though, hence why it's great for gamers, but a bit meh for everyone else.

PCs could be said to have been a a solution to a problem that didn't exist also. You could play some games and do some word processing (both of which you could already do more reliably elsewhere). Other than that there really was not much use for a PC thirty years ago. But the awesome thing about the PC was that it was a tabula rasa that allowed it to become a solution to emerging problems. VR has that same quality.

On a side note, I don't agree with your view that movies will not look better in VR. I think presence will bring something really cool to the table for movies that are made with VR in mind.

 

[DidntKnowJack]

He's absolutely right. VR is about shutting out the real world completely. It's an absolutely solo affair. Now I'm sure there will be games where you interact with other people virtually, but that is such a limited social experience.

The good news is, at least in these early stages of VR, the tech is not going to swallow up gaming as a whole. And it's not going to completely shut us all off from the real world because it's not going to be used for all media and it's not going to completely take over the world.

I still think this is going to be a fairly niche product.

 

[SZips]

You close off reality around you with VR, unlike a TV. Heck, at least for me, most games I play in front of a TV are split screen and involve a lot of socializing.

It's just as easy to close off reality with any sort of media. VR really changes nothing as has been pointed out throughout this thread already.

I'm not suddenly going to stop talking to my online friends or those around me the moment I strap on a headset, just as I don't stop talking to them now while playing a game without a VR headset. If anything, it would spur more discussion on "Hey, you should try this!" and sharing the experiences with them. Do people say this same sort of nonsense with something like TrackIR? It's roughly the same sort of experience (head/motion tracking) but with the screen a bit further away from the eyes.

 

[FluxWaveZ]

The endpoint of VR, on the other hand - all engineering
practicalities of first aiming for a seemingly easier goal aside - seems to be
fundamentally anti-social, completing the sad trajectory of entertainment moving
further and further away from shared social experiences. (As I have mentioned
multiple times, I find the limited, formalized, abstracted and ultimately
alienated social interactions in most forms of online gaming to be immensely
off-putting).

Good. GOOD.

 

[angular graphics]

Motorcycles are antisocial, long live the bus!

 

[Krejlooc]

I don't understand how playing a VR game is any less social than playing a game in front of a monitor or TV.

He claims that playing games in front of a monitor or tv is anti social as well, so take this guys opinion with a boulder of salt.

 

[CambriaRising]

As someone who spends most of his gaming time in a dark room with a headset on already, I am not seeing an issue.

 

[akachan ningen]

books are pretty anti social too, I mean when was the last time you read a book as a group?

vr does seem like a escapist sort of thing but it's not like you need to spend 6 hours a day on it.

 

[Zomba13]

Hook me up with nutrition tubes and put me in a virtual world. I don't want people.

People, what a bunch of bastards.

 

[Stronty]

So in attempting to talk down VR as a bad idea, this guy has just helped hype it up even more.

Stealth Marketing.

 

[SZips]

He claims that playing games in front of a monitor or tv is anti social as well, so take this guys opinion with a boulder of salt.

No problem with that, I really can't take his or similar opinions without huge amounts of skepticism or salt. I understand some people are stuck in the mindset of 10-20 years ago as to what an ideal gaming experience should be like (Miyamoto included) but there are other ways of being social that don't involve physically being in the same room with everyone.

 

[Kiote]

He's correct that it is anti-social, but so are the best game experiences I've had.

That's kind of the point. He is claiming that the experience will be too good and gamers will become significantly more anti-social.

 

[EventHorizon]

Fabian Giesen says that a TL;DR of his opinion isn't possible, yet in all that text he never backs up his opinion that "VR is bad news"

He says that VR is an entirely different "more broad-spectrum" experience like "the way a movie relates to a radio play" but never says why that is a bad thing. In fact his analogy shows that society has already gone through increasingly immerse entertainment changes without negative effects. We went from oral traditions to written books to plays to radio to movie to TV. This exact same complaint could have been made at every step.

He says that he doesn't like online gaming and MMORPGs, but yet again never says why that should be considered a more important statement than someone saying that they don't like RTSs, or Japanese RPGs. It is just a statement about his tastes.

He says that VR is unsocial but fails to explain how being able to see the TV set or room you are playing in makes non VR gaming a more social experience. Unless you compare VR gaming to couch co-op, which btw is rare for computer games in the first place, VR gaming isn't any more antisocial than any other gaming experience.

He says that advertisers are interested in VR gaming yet doesn't say why that is a negative. Advertisers are interested in broadcast TV, newspapers, websites etc. Advertisers have been interested in traditional gaming and consoles too. Why the sudden concern over VR?

I have no doubt that Fabian Giesen really feels the way he does, and I am certainly not going to say he doesn't have the right to feel that way. However, while he has strong opinions against VR, he has not made the case why anyone else should share his belief.

 

[Krejlooc]

This exact same complaint could have been made at every step.

In fact, they have been. Every transformative new technology is met with fears of the collapse of society. Yes, even written language.

 

[7DollarHagane]

This "argument" that we're going to end up in some dystopian future because of VR sounds really familiar. The argument to me sounds like "EVERYONE is going to end up in Virtual Reality ALL THE TIME and its gonna kill SOCIETY and people are going to become ANTI-SOCIAL VEGETABLES". Just like Rock music, comic books, and videogames before it.

Virtual reality isn't even a thing yet. Maybe there will be issues with it. Or maybe there won't be. We'll deal with that when the time comes. Why do we have to start flipping out about how its going to end civilization as we know it before people even really have their hands on it? Because we're afraid of ending up in the Matrix?

The irony of course being that the Matrix and ideas like it aren't real so there's no reason to assume that's how things will turn out.

The argument is that some persons will lose themselves in it too much and ruin their lives, not participate in real life, and possibly even neglect or hurt themselves or others is a valid one based on some of the shitty stories that came out around world of Warcraft or other MMOs about people neglecting their kids or playing for 60 hours straight.

Vr has the potential to take that unhealthy behavior to new extremes for many people. Its a valid concern.

 

[Krejlooc]

The argument is that some persons will lose themselves in it too much and ruin their lives, not participate in real life, and possibly even neglect or hurt themselves or others is a valid one based on some of the shitty stories that came out around world of Warcraft or other MMOs about people neglecting their kids or playing for 60 hours straight.

Vr has the potential to take that unhealthy behavior to new extremes for many people. Its a valid concern.

People will get addicted to anything. Watch My Strange Addiction if you want to see how people can become psychologically addicted to any sort of activity. This is in the nature of those people. I don't think VR is going to breed new people who are susceptible to becoming addicted to enjoyable activities, only give those people another outlet to become addicted to. By your own admission, those types of people are already falling into obscene addictions with World of Warcraft or similar games. We have members on this board who are clearly addicted to posting online. I saw an episode of My Secret Addiction where a woman was addicted to eating toilet paper.

While fears of addiction are a valid concern, I don't think it's enough to make an argument for stunting or holding back the technology. A much more valid concern would be the ability for VR to desensitize people towards committing violence, personally.

 

[EventHorizon]

The argument is that some persons will lose themselves in it too much and ruin their lives, not participate in real life, and possibly even neglect or hurt themselves or others is a valid one based on some of the shitty stories that came out around world of Warcraft or other MMOs about people neglecting their kids or playing for 60 hours straight.

Vr has the potential to take that unhealthy behavior to new extremes for many people. Its a valid concern.

What percentage of the populous have those problems? My guess is that it is very close to the same percent that have obsessive compulsive issues or are just bad parents. People get addicted to many things (see list below). How is VR gaming just not one more outlet for that personality type?

Types of Addiction

• Alcohol
• Tobacco
• Opioids (like heroin)
• Prescription drugs (sedatives, hypnotics, or anxiolytics like sleeping pills and tranquilizers)
• Intermittent explosive disorder (compulsive aggressive and assaultive acts)
• Kleptomania (compulsive stealing)
• Pyromania (compulsive setting of fires)
• Gambling
• Food (eating)
• Sex
• Pornography (attaining, viewing)
• Using computers / the internet
• Working
• Exercising
• Spiritual obsession (as opposed to religious devotion)
• Pain (seeking)
• Cutting
• Shopping

 

[Lefein]

Remember when all of videogaming was considered a harmful antisocial experience?

 

[Krejlooc]

What percentage of the populous have those problems? My guess is that it is very close to the same percent that have obsessive compulsive issues or are just bad parents. People get addicted to many things (see list below). How is VR gaming just not one more outlet for that personality type?

Types of Addiction

• Alcohol
• Tobacco
• Opioids (like heroin)
• Prescription drugs (sedatives, hypnotics, or anxiolytics like sleeping pills and tranquilizers)
• Intermittent explosive disorder (compulsive aggressive and assaultive acts)
• Kleptomania (compulsive stealing)
• Pyromania (compulsive setting of fires)
• Gambling
• Food (eating)
• Sex
• Pornography (attaining, viewing)
• Using computers / the internet
• Working
• Exercising
• Spiritual obsession (as opposed to religious devotion)
• Pain (seeking)
• Cutting
• Shopping

This list needs to make a distinction between chemical addiction and psychological addiction. Chemical addiction is a real thing - anything that is released that is chemically addictive should give serious pause to adoption, because it's not a personality type that becomes addicted to them. You don't need to be born a certain kind of person to become addicted to alcohol. Chemical addiction is also accompanied by physical withdrawl, keeping the addicted from freeing themselves. Alcohol, tobacco, prescription drugs, opioid... those are all chemical addictions.

Anything, absolutely anything, can become psychologically addictive. That's more the point you're making. There is no withdrawl from psychological addiction, nor does it affect everyone.

If VR was chemically addicted - if people not using VR were getting physically sick until they got their next VR fix - then yeah, I'd say we need to halt our progression on the technology just a bit. But if it's just psychological addiction that people are worried about, then they should be worried about absolutely every technology known to man.

 

[DOWN]

So VR is working perfectly. #moreinterested #resignationbackfire

 

[Imperfected]

Remember when all of videogaming was considered a harmful antisocial experience?

I'm sick of all these kids locking themselves up in dark rooms staring at moving pictures when they should be outside playing hoop-stick and getting Polio. Their behavior is clearly immoral and should be strictly regulated by the government.

 

[EventHorizon]

This list needs to make a distinction between chemical addiction and psychological addiction. Chemical addiction is a real thing - anything that is released that is chemically addictive should give serious pause to adoption, because it's not a personality type that becomes addicted to them. You don't need to be born a certain kind of person to become addicted to alcohol. Chemical addiction is also accompanied by physical withdrawl, keeping the addicted from freeing themselves. Alcohol, tobacco, prescription drugs, opioid... those are all chemical addictions.

Anything, absolutely anything, can become psychologically addictive. That's more the point you're making. There is no withdrawl from psychological addiction, nor does it affect everyone.

If VR was chemically addicted - if people not using VR were getting physically sick until they got their next VR fix - then yeah, I'd say we need to halt our progression on the technology just a bit. But if it's just psychological addiction that people are worried about, then they should be worried about absolutely every technology known to man.

There are biological causes of for things like alcoholism.

Advancements in neurobiological research have changed the way we view addiction. Addiction is no longer limited to problematic substance use. We now know that certain activities can also be addictive (sex, gambling). This is because addiction is a problem of brain functioning. We become addicted to the chemicals our brain releases, not the substance or activity that causes this release. Our genetics greatly determine our brain functioning.

However I see your point and I too make a distinction with physical addiction. The basic point I'm making is to question the cause and effect of the "VR is bad news" argument. VR is just one of many available outlets for a person predisposed to addictive behavior. It doesn't cause the addiction. Admittedly physical addictions is different in that the physical addiction is one more hurdle that a person has to overcome in order to quit.

 

[killer rin]

Just give me something like Sword Art Online (without all the death) and I'll be content. I'm a futurist, so I'm hopeful that I'll be able to see some really amazing stuff come out for VR in my lifetime.

As to his concerns, if VR is done right, it has the possibility to be more social than anything gaming has ever made.

 

[Tetranet]

You're forgetting NeoGAF.

I'm having surges of addiction with it every now and then, today (yesterday actually) is a great example.

VR won't create waves of addicts, these people already exist, some of them will just add this technology to their habits.

 

[Vilam]

The endpoint of VR, on the other hand - all engineering practicalities of first aiming for a seemingly easier goal aside - seems to be fundamentally anti-social, completing the sad trajectory of entertainment moving further and further away from shared social experiences. (As I have mentioned multiple times, I find the limited, formalized, abstracted and ultimately alienated social interactions in most forms of online gaming to be immensely off-putting).

See ya... Maybe Nintendo is hiring? All the things he dislikes are things I absolutely want. I can't wait for VR.

 

[Eppy Thatcher]

I'm not worried about the antisocial aspect of VR at all because that's just personalities and those will always exists no matter what - imo once it becomes a norm it would probably help promote people to be more social in a new way where they could potentially use it as therapy... initially talking and interacting through an avatar as in an MMO type of game.. them interacting with that world in a VR interface which would probably move them closer to actual socialization via slowly building up confidence via a perception of physical "presence" in an online/virtual space. To eventually going to the store yourself and not having a panic attack at the checkout aisle. True potential for a lot of people/doctors/therapies out there.

On the other hand... i'm absolutely not excited about VR right now at all. Could simply be because i haven't had the chance to experience it myself but every tech demo, early game tech demo, visualization stuff they've shown has been hilariously underwhelming to me and I've never been one of those people who put on the virtual headsets at disneyland or MoA and got vertigo or mindblown because of the sense of scale or whatever. My mind always seems to normalize what i'm viewing and then it's just a matter of "eh these graphics suck hard. Even if they are wrapped around my vision."

Those videos of people freaking out at their computer chairs because of the roller coaster Oculus thing? Yea... those people look like idiots to me.

hope i'm wrong.

 

[rjinaz]

I think one question I have after reading the posts in this thread: do people really care about others becoming less social because of VR or do they just not like VR so they are using one of the negative aspects to prove their point that VR shouldn't become popular? I find it hard to believe that so many people worry about other's social lives all the time. I mean thank you for your concern, but I plan to spend many hours in virtual worlds regardless.

Obviously VR has the potential to cut people off from the world like nothing else before it that isn't a drug, so yeah there certainly is a valid concern to a point. But as others have stated, anything can be abused if used outside of moderation. It's up to people to be responsible and to live healthy. I can also imagine VR becoming quite social eventually as more online VR experiences come to be. I also imagine I'll still want to have actual social relationships with people the same as I always have. I'm not suddenly going to want to stop having my needs met like companionship and sex just because of VR. Some might sure, but most won't.

 

[Feep]

Exciting times, folks. Exciting times.

 

[Krejlooc]

On the other hand... i'm absolutely not excited about VR right now at all. Could simply be because i haven't had the chance to experience it myself but every tech demo, early game tech demo, visualization stuff they've shown has been hilariously underwhelming to me

I mean, the flaw in your reasoning should be obvious. No "could be" about it.

 

[OnPoint]

Didn't Miyamoto basically say this and get roasted alive for it?

 

[Monocle]

He is right. The endpoint of this is a lot of people subsisting on a pathetic substitute for real social interaction. I foresee a lot of people feeling depressed and not being sure why.

What you've described is identical to an overreliance on online socializing in its present form.

There's always a degree of fear and uncertainty about new technologies that have the potential to change society. It's usually overblown.

 

[Krejlooc]

Didn't Miyamoto basically say this and get roasted alive for it?

yes. Spoiler: This guy is getting roasted alive for it, too.

 

[Metrotab]

I love asocial hobbies and activities. Just me and no one else to ruin it. Reading a book, intense listening to music, grand strategy games and soon, virtual reality exploration.

Let the future come.

 

[SMOK3Y]

The endpoint of VR, on the other hand - all engineering
practicalities of first aiming for a seemingly easier goal aside - seems to be
fundamentally anti-social, completing the sad trajectory of entertainment moving
further and further away from shared social experiences. (As I have mentioned
multiple times, I find the limited, formalized, abstracted and ultimately
alienated social interactions in most forms of online gaming to be immensely
off-putting).

I gotta lol at those I highlighted, IMO the whole world is anti-social now with being (supposedly) social on FB, phones, forums etc. those are not 'real' social face to face so it is a connected anti-social world we live in.. me included

 

[Seanspeed]

He's absolutely right. VR is about shutting out the real world completely. It's an absolutely solo affair. Now I'm sure there will be games where you interact with other people virtually, but that is such a limited social experience.

Anymore limited than online gaming or video chat? It actually has the potential to be far LESS limiting than these existing, widely used technologies.

So you're wrong about it being a completely solo affair and you're wrong that its 'such' a limited social experience. It could well be a massive improvement on what we have now.

Nobody is saying it will, or should substitute real life interaction completely and its ludicrous to argue against VR as if this is the whole premise behind it.

 

[-Horizon-]

My virtual waifu is all I need. Reality is overrated and sponsored by Doritos.

 

[Jedi2016]

As someone who is disabled, a lot of his complaints are exactly why I look forward to getting into VR. It will allow me to experience things I would normally never get to experience.

That's the whole point of VR, IMO, and it goes way beyond the everyday stuff. I can go to the bottom of the ocean or the top of Everest. I can stand on the surface of Mars. That's a lot more exciting to me than just playing a piss-ant little video game. Folks that think VR is just for games are dead wrong. That's why Facebook bought them, remember, they don't give a shit about games, but they give a shit about all the other things VR can do for us.

 

[EventHorizon]

For the sake of argument, even if VR caused the antisocial and additive behavior that is being worried over, what do opponents of VR expect/want to happen. Cars kill 30,000 people in the US every year. Would someone refuse to work on car software because of that fact? Should the maximum allowed speed limit be 30 mph? Having your computer hooked up to the internet exposes you to hackers from anywhere in the world. Should we not use the internet or not use our computers to help us with our finances?

The fact is that all tech comes with some potential downside. We as a society accept those drawbacks and continue on. The idea that we should stop technological progress because someone, somewhere, might be harmed by it doesn't make sense and is contrary to how we've so far included tech into our lives.

Another troubling point about the anti-VR argument is that it is based on the fact that VR will be really really good. Is there some max level of enjoyment threshold that we as a society shouldn't cross? If VR gets widespread use it will be because many people want to use it. Why do some people feel that it is up to them to say how other people spend their time?

 

[The Technomancer]

Five years ago I would have been all over VR. Nowadays...I dunno, it just doesn't interest me. I have trouble seeing myself really getting into it.

 

[Aaronrules380]

I don't get how people can say VR will provide online multiplayer interaction that's just like real life. VR is still so far from that that it's not worth talking about. Communications between people is heavily reliant on things like body language and facial expressions. More so than actual spoken words in fact. So as long as VR constitutes putting on a headset and using traditional control methods, mimicing real life interactions on any level is impossible. And that's ignoring physical stimuli beyond sight and hearing that play a role in our interactions.

Also, I get the feeling another thing this guy is worried about is that people will be gigantic dicks to each other on VR the same way they already are online, and I see no reason to believe otherwise. But because immersion is increased, it'd probably end up more damaging for the victims of cyberbullying