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[Cyan]

Not a whole lot of motion in these two chapters. We've got one chapter of Jubal talking down to Jill and passing the reader some info about what happened to Ben (honestly, I'd forgotten the dude's name--probably just as well Heinlein reminded us about him here). And then we've got some exploration of Mike's abilities.

Those are interesting, but less original now than they might have been when the book was written. Mike is super smart, and can learn things incredibly fast. He's got some telekinetic abilities. And he can make dangerous things disappear with a thought. It also seems that on Mars, spirits/souls/some such hang around after a person's body dies. K.

No doubt we'll discover that Mike has these abilities because his Martian upbringing helped him access the other 90% of the brain that most humans don't use. :/

 

[Maklershed]

I think I've been tainted by several of my Goodreads friends warning me that Heinlein is 'weird about his women characters' whatever that means. I can't stop reading too much into how the main woman character behaves in this book.

I was just about to post that the one glaring aspect I've seen in this book is Heinlein doesn't show women in a very positive light. They seem to be either completely helpless (Jill) in a man's world, or smart and strong but still just sex objects / slaves to a smarter, more dominant man (Anne, Dorcas, Miriam).

 

[Ratrat]

I was just about to post that the one glaring aspect I've seen in this book is Heinlein doesn't show women in a very positive light. They seem to be either completely helpless (Jill) in a man's world, or smart and strong but still just sex objects / slaves to a smarter, more dominant man (Anne, Dorcas, Miriam).

That's exactly what I thought when reading Peter F. Hamilton's Pandora's Star!
Its like Mad Men a little.

 

[nakedsushi]

I was just about to post that the one glaring aspect I've seen in this book is Heinlein doesn't show women in a very positive light. They seem to be either completely helpless (Jill) in a man's world, or smart and strong but still just sex objects / slaves to a smarter, more dominant man (Anne, Dorcas, Miriam).

I can't help but think of Anne, Dorcas, Miriam and a little of Jill as Charlie's Angels.

 

[Maklershed]

I can't help but think of Anne, Dorcas, Miriam and a little of Jill as Charlie's Angels.

Ditto. And the misogyny continues - I came across a paragraph at lunch that basically said the girls were trained well because they knew to keep their mouths shut and not interject into the hard boiled world of men and they knew to keep the food and drinks coming.

 

[Cyan]

Looks like things are picking up a little. But then, every time I've thought that so far, we've gone right back to philosophical maundering a short time later.

So, Mike discovers religion! And then Jubal tells us why all religion is stupid. And then, just in case atheists were feeling smug, he tells us that atheism is stupid too.

Right on.

I would never do it myself, but it's fun to watch someone who knows what they're doing poke a lawman.

 

[nakedsushi]

I think I'm a little ahead of you, but the philosophical/religious meandering is still going, full steam ahead. Ah, to have the abridged version!

 

[Maklershed]

Ha here's a fun one: "9 time out of 10 when a woman is raped it was partly her fault."

I'm going to spoiler this because I'm ahead of the milestone and I'm not sure if this is indeed a spoiler or not but

Spoiler

I'm enjoying the discussion of the Frostertite religion and I'm wondering if Mike had some kind of telepathic discussion w/ the dead body or spirit of Frost.

 

[nakedsushi]

Ha here's a fun one: "9 time out of 10 when a woman is raped it was partly her fault."

Yeah, I think that's pretty much when I called off trying to understand this book from the author's point of view. I sped through the rest of the book last night and can't say I enjoyed it =(

 

[Cyan]

Ha here's a fun one: "9 time out of 10 when a woman is raped it was partly her fault."

Oy.

 

[nakedsushi]

Finissimo!

Ended up hating the book. But at least I finished.

Review:

Usually, unabridged versions of books are great because I, as a reader, get the authentic story that the writer is trying to tell. In the case of Stranger in a Strange Land, I was pretty sick of the story Heinlein was trying to tell. Maybe I should have picked up the abridged edition.

The premise is good. The only known human who has grown up on Mars gets picked up and brought back to Earth. He's human in physical form, but Martian in mind and soul.

The story that I wanted to read was a coming of age story of a man learning what it's like to become human with some discussion about nature vs. nurture thrown in.

The story that's in the book is a long-winded, repetitive, poorly-disguised argument for free love in a patriarcal society.

Some specific problems I had with the story was the implication that there's a rightness and a wrongness to most things, as if there aren't shades of gray or different perspectives. According to this book, homosexuals have "wrongness" to them.

Then there's Heinlein's whole thing about how women's bodies can only be appreciated through the eyes of men. Really. He dedicates a few pages to this alone.

I can probably go on and on about the things I didn't like about this book, but I'll just leave it at this: no more Heinlein for me.

 

[Margalis]

Read some Philip K. Dick to get the bad taste out of your mouth.

Edit: The only Heinlein book I've read all the way through was The Puppet Masters because it was just pure pulp silliness. His work has not aged well at all and some things like Farnham's Freehold are just embarrassingly bad.

 

[Cyan]

Right. So Mike kills a bunch more dudes with that weird 4d thing he does. But it's cool, because they're all government goons and therefore not real people (I begin to see why this book was popular in the sixties!). Jubal backdoors into contact with El Presidente (thanks to magically already knowing the one person who can get him in, the astrologer), and it's all resolved without bloodshed. Except for the busloads of goons. And reporter guy is alive and relatively unharmed.

And making out with Mike is super-awesome.

Man. Almost halfway through the book, and somehow it feels like hardly anything has happened. :/

sushi- I hope you don't give up on Heinlein entirely. The Moon is a Harsh Mistress was quite good. Still, this one has clearly aged poorly.

 

[Jenga]

I guess you guys couldn't grok it


it is fascinating to watch you guys get your sensibilities really offended though

then I remembered this is GAF after all

smart and strong but still just sex objects / slaves to a smarter, more dominant man (Anne, Dorcas, Miriam).

Jubal is actually fairly flaccid, the girls can basically tell him to shut the fuck up and dunk him in the pool whenever they wish

 

[Speschal K]

I read Stranger about two years ago and enjoyed it as a piece of classic SF, and agreed with a lot of the posts in the thread regarding Heinlein's views. It's not a novel I would likely re-read. I would like to throw out there a few topics for everyone else to consider that I think the GAF book club would need to tackle at one point or another:

A collection of short stories
A fantasy novel other than A Song of Ice and Fire! I've been eying "The Name of the Wind" by Rothfuss based on the monthly "What are you reading?" topics
A Vonnegut Novel ( I would recommend the Sirens of Titan - which I think would be a kind of interesting contrast to this month's book )
A good zombie novel - (??)

Regardless, hope to be there next month!

 

[Seth C]

So frustrating seeing an entire group of people put turned against Heinlein because they fell in to the trap of the literary community.

 

[coldvein]

they fell in to the trap of the literary community.

what's the trap? the book itself?

 

[Narag]

I really liked this when I read it and gave it to a friend who promptly hated it as she was offended in a similair manner as some of the posters.

Jubal is actually fairly flaccid, the girls can basically tell him to shut the fuck up and dunk him in the pool whenever they wish

That's in line with how I remember it.

 

[Cyan]

it is fascinating to watch you guys get your sensibilities really offended though

The only books that ever really offended my sensibilities were Bakker's Prince of Nothing trilogy and Watts' Blindsight.

I'm certainly not offended by Heinlein, though I'm finding this one less compulsively readable than The Moon is a Harsh Mistress.

 

[nakedsushi]

I guess you guys couldn't grok it


it is fascinating to watch you guys get your sensibilities really offended though

then I remembered this is GAF after all


Jubal is actually fairly flaccid, the girls can basically tell him to shut the fuck up and dunk him in the pool whenever they wish

I'm not really offended by the content of the book, since it's the author's opinion after all, but I am offended by the length of it. Good gods, the unabridged version should never have been released. So much repetitive and useless ranting.

 

[Seth C]

what's the trap? the book itself?

Basically, yes. The suggestion that Stranger is somehow the pinnacle of Heinlein's work, or the first choice among his novels. I love Heinlein, yet loathe Stranger in a Strange Land. I consider it a very poor example of the rest of his work.

I'm not really offended by the content of the book, since it's the author's opinion after all, but I am offended by the length of it. Good gods, the unabridged version should never have been released. So much repetitive and useless ranting.

And for crying out loud, people, stop trying to assume the ideas presented in the book are direct correlations of the author's opinion. His goal, almost without fail, is to take the reader out of his or her comfort zone. That doesn't always mean he is presenting his own opinions, but rather the ones he thinks will help accomplish that goal.

 

[Dresden]

I'm not really offended by the content of the book, since it's the author's opinion after all, but I am offended by the length of it. Good gods, the unabridged version should never have been released. So much repetitive and useless ranting.

Sounds like the uncut version of The Stand.

 

[Cyan]

A collection of short stories
A fantasy novel other than A Song of Ice and Fire! I've been eying "The Name of the Wind" by Rothfuss based on the monthly "What are you reading?" topics
A Vonnegut Novel ( I would recommend the Sirens of Titan - which I think would be a kind of interesting contrast to this month's book )
A good zombie novel - (??)

Be more specific, and I'll put your suggestions on the list.

Also, you might consider narrowing it down a bit. More likely to pick up a few votes if you choose one of those and give us some good arguments why we should read it. We'll be discarding the list once we've picked next month's in any case.

 

[Cyan]

And we finally get Jubal together with El Presidente! Fun times. I have to admit, it's good fun watching Jubal stick a pin into the over-inflated egos of some of these politicians. And the random bit with the American President was pretty funny. Probably done mainly to surprise the reader. "What? The US President isn't the most important world leader in the future? :O" And of course now, it seems all too realistic.

Nice to see Mahmoud and the others overcoming their prejudices and becoming water brothers. I suppose this will inevitably spread across the world, with everyone eventually being brothers.

So... what's the deal with "mammalian"? I mean, I get it: he's talkin bout the boobies, and only mammals have breasts. But still... what?

 

[justin.au]

I'm ashamed to say I didn't do this month. I got snowed under with uni work and then said, no I can start it tomorrow and catch up, and then said it again the next day, and again the day after that...

And then it was the 15th and I hadn't started. Very weak effort for a book I voted for.

 

[Cyan]

And with that, the government threat is over. For now, at least. El Presidente has no motivation to hurt Mike or his water brothers, and the main opposition dude has been neutralized.

Some interesting thoughts from the Mars expedition people: is Mike a reconnoitering advance force? Ok, doubt it. But the Marsies can apparently send people 90 degrees into nothingness just like Mr. Smith. Weapons or no, they're not going to lose to humans if there are disagreements.

And we finally learn to grok "grok." Well, if we hadn't already picked it up from ambient background culture, of course.

 

[Cyan]

We're voting on the next book in a few days, so let's start tossing out suggestions!

I'm thinking it might be cool to go non-fiction next. I was opposed to non-fiction in the book club at first, but on further reflection I think it might give us more to discuss and could provide impetus for trying out some books we wouldn't otherwise.

My suggestion is The Happiness Project by Gretchen Rubin. I've been interested in the book for a while, but don't often find time for non-fiction, so haven't got around to it. The idea of the book is that it's half self-help (thoughts and techniques on finding happiness), and half memoir (Rubin's story as she spends a year trying out all kinds of random stuff to see what sticks). Sounds like fun.

 

[Maklershed]

I'd be down for that.

 

[timetokill]

I just bought the book this week and it's been on my list for a long time, so I'll try catching up. Good pick.

 

[nakedsushi]

My suggestion for our next bookclub book (nonfiction) would be


Radio Shangri-La: What I Learned in the Happiest Place on Earth by Lisa Napoli

Heard about it on the radio a few weeks ago and it sounded pretty interesting.

 

[Buckethead]

What's the diff between the uncut and original version?

Apparently the iBooks versionnis the original but sounds awesome and I want to buy,

 

[Maklershed]

My suggestion is The Happiness Project by Gretchen Rubin.

This went up $1.09 over night >.<

EDIT: For the paperback version.

 

[Pollux]

Out of curiosity what is the April book going to be? Might I suggest Atlas Shrugged - Ayn Rand

 

[Cyan]

Out of curiosity what is the April book going to be? Might I suggest Atlas Shrugged - Ayn Rand

We'll vote on it in a few days.

Atlas Shrugged, huh? Well, I'll put it on the list. Would you be up for running the thread/leading discussion if it gets picked?

 

[Pollux]

We'll vote on it in a few days.

Atlas Shrugged, huh? Well, I'll put it on the list. Would you be up for running the thread/leading discussion if it gets picked?

I could try, not sure how good I would be. I'm busy with my final semester of college but I could try if it does get picked.

 

[Cyan]

Ha! The concept of the consumerist branch of Christianity was silly, but pretty funny in implementation. Slot machines spitting out scripture and all. So Mike just killed/erased/whatever the head of the most powerful religious sect in the world. Um. K then. Kind of out of nowhere, that one. Did he feel threatened somehow? It really wasn't clear.

Jubal's take on religions in general was interesting--funny that the two examples of Biblical bs he uses (the kids making fun of whats-his-name being bald, who then get killed by bears, and Lot's daughters) are the same ones I've most commonly heard from atheists as examples of same. Coincidence, or have they all read Heinlein?

Also: Mike has sex zomg. So... why all the secrecy about who it was?

 

[Maklershed]

Jubal's take on religions in general was interesting--funny that the two examples of Biblical bs he uses (the kids making fun of whats-his-name being bald, who then get killed by bears, and Lot's daughters) are the same ones I've most commonly heard from atheists as examples of same. Coincidence, or have they all read Heinlein?

I hadn't heard of either of those stories and ironically on the very same day I read about them in this book someone posted comics illustrating the verses in the Funny Picture Thread. Also, as a bald man it's good to know that God is cool with me killing anyone that makes fun of my lack of hair.

 

[Cyan]

Huh. So Mike finally leaves the nest--on page 300-something. And suddenly things get... boring. We've got this random carnival he's at, a random snake-handler lady who becomes a sudden focus even though we've never had a chance to care about her in the slightest, and a bunch more chatter about God and Foster and whatnot.

For the first time, I was really tempted to skim. There's just... nothing interesting going on. No conflict. And mature-Mike is much less interesting than naive-Mike.

Sigh.

Also, as a bald man it's good to know that God is cool with me killing anyone that makes fun of my lack of hair.

Remember, you can't kill them yourself! You have to get some bears to do it.

 

[Cyan]

And it's now time to choose next month's book! The suggestions thus far:


The Afghan Campaign by Steven Pressfield


The Happiness Project by Gretchen Rubin


Radio Shangri-La: What I Learned in the Happiest Place on Earth by Lisa Napoli


Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand

[your suggestion here!]

Please get your votes in by the 23rd, Wednesday.

If you have a suggestion for a different book, get it in ASAP so other people can vote on it!

Guidelines for suggestions:
-Any single book (fiction or non-) is fine; please don't recommend a whole series.
-You can vote for your own suggestion.
-You might give us a paragraph or so explaining why we should want to read it.
-Please note if you would be willing to lead discussion (the milestones, etc) on this book.

 

[Maklershed]

If I hadn't read it already I'd vote for Atlas Shrugged*. But since I have I'll vote for The Happiness Project.

*hated the message but I thought it was entertaining none the less. Plus the upcoming movie looks really good.

 

[johnbeez]

The Afghan Campaign by Steven Pressfield

Looks like a good read - will try it next regardless of if its picked or not

 

[eznark]

Voting for Pressfield again. I bought it last month but held off hoping it'd win this round of voting.

 

[justin.au]

I'll vote for the Afghan Campaign, and I will actually be able to do the book club this month.

 

[nakedsushi]

I vote for Radio Shangri-La

 

[Shanadeus]

I'm voting Atlas Shrugged.

 

[Dresden]

Voting for The Afghan Campaign. Got it last month as well, but held off on it in case we picked it here.

 

[Datwheezy]

Putting my vote in for The Afghan Campaign.

 

[Cyan]

Oh right, I vote for The Happiness Project. Though I'll be cool reading whatever.

Sounds like we're leaning Afghan Campaign, but I'll leave voting open until Wednesday as promised.


And while you guys are here, any suggestions for running the thread? I'd like to get a bit more participation/discussion going.

I get the feeling the pace is a bit slow for most people, so they're reading ahead and aren't interested in discussing what they've long since gotten past. Shall we speed up the pace, maybe finish with some time left in the month? We could use that time for final thoughts and discussion on the book.

Maybe doing the milestones differently would help. Right now it seems to work out as mostly summarizing, since I don't always have much to say. Less summarizing, more jumping off points for discussion? Maybe just a sentence or two on things we might talk about, and ditch the summarizing?

Any feedback would be appreciated!

 

[nakedsushi]

I'm a pretty fast reader, so I end up ahead most the time, but I try to take part in discussions. Maybe having discussions less about milestones? I don't know how this'll be since it's the first time we do a non-fiction book.

I think less summarizing and more jumping off points is a good direction to take it.

I thought we had some pretty good discussions with the Heinlein book. Like about what a wordy mofo he was.

 

[natasi]

Looks like it already has popular support, but I'll throw my vote in for Afghan Campaign nonetheless.