Canis lupus
Member
Wow almost no one read the OP there.
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GAF, please educate yourselves. This whole "just like steam" nonsense needs to stop.
- Thread starter Metalmurphy
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Wow almost no one read the OP there.
If people are comparing to the Steam is just silly. Every System have good and bad things in it, nothing is perfect.
I'm not sure but there is also some games that have a limit number of activations right? I was asking about this to another fellow GAFfer, there are games that you can only activate on a different machine "x" number of times.
Even if Steam forced DRM policy in a much more fierce way the prices would still make up for it when they drop -75% in a short time, also since the day Steam was created people knew it was a Digital service with no option to sell a game they bought. Many people are upset because they might be new to the concept and really dislike it on consoles, which I can see why but I also do agree that some GAFfers need to calm down, chill, grab a tea and wait a bit more for E3. I can't wait for my PS4, at least.
I'm not sure but there is also some games that have a limit number of activations right? I was asking about this to another fellow GAFfer, there are games that you can only activate on a different machine "x" number of times.
Even if Steam forced DRM policy in a much more fierce way the prices would still make up for it when they drop -75% in a short time, also since the day Steam was created people knew it was a Digital service with no option to sell a game they bought. Many people are upset because they might be new to the concept and really dislike it on consoles, which I can see why but I also do agree that some GAFfers need to calm down, chill, grab a tea and wait a bit more for E3. I can't wait for my PS4, at least.
I didn't jump on you, I told you this thread has been made, multiple times, it wasn't a criticism.
Unless you've downloaded and backed up every game on Steam you own, you WILL lose access if Steam goes down. That piracy can "fix" this is no recourse.
nkarafo
Member
You can still play your games even if Valve explodes. The usage of cracks is not immoral (i'm not sure if it will be still legal) because you bought those games anyway.
Its an option. At least you can do something to preserve your collection.
bigbaldwolf86
Banned
He's not the messiah...he's a very naughty boy!
pitcairn55
Member
Durante had a thread on the subject - I think that was called 'XBO = Steam'. It got locked. Like many many other threads yesterday.
Edit: beaten like DRM
As a Junior I should probably stay away from these threads, but all the comparisons are getting a little on my nerves.
Yes, there are similarities, as with any digital distribution services. But the argument should start and stop on the point "it's a open platform". I don't *have* to use Steam to play games on my hardware. Some games may require it, but that's the publisher option. The "best" example is EA. They didn't agree with Steam terms, and set up their own shop.
The short of it is: If Valve screw up, we can move somewhere else without buying new hardware. We have options. So do the developers.
Also... let's assume for a moment that Steam is just as bad. What kind of argument is it anyway: "hey... Valve screws your rights, so it's okay for MS to do it too".
Yes, there are similarities, as with any digital distribution services. But the argument should start and stop on the point "it's a open platform". I don't *have* to use Steam to play games on my hardware. Some games may require it, but that's the publisher option. The "best" example is EA. They didn't agree with Steam terms, and set up their own shop.
The short of it is: If Valve screw up, we can move somewhere else without buying new hardware. We have options. So do the developers.
Also... let's assume for a moment that Steam is just as bad. What kind of argument is it anyway: "hey... Valve screws your rights, so it's okay for MS to do it too".
1st Course
Member
lol no
Steam is a digital distribution service, as of now you can't sell your digital media anywhere weither it's be Steam, PSN, iOS or whatever. Until selling your digital media become an option there is no point in arguing otherwise.
Don't worry, there won't be an Xbox Two.
I hope this doesn't get locked, every Xbone thread is derailed by this Steam comparison.
I add to the topic:
-Steam is/was better than the existing DRM alternatives on the PC. And it help keeping the PC games alive. It was a slow implementation and the people were not happy with it either.
- If you don't like PC's DRM you have now the option of buying games on the consoles. If PS4 implements also the kind of DRM Microsoft wants you will have only Wii U as alternative in couple of years.
- Steam was just going on an existing trend, Xbone is changing the status quo in consoles into something way worse.
I add to the topic:
-Steam is/was better than the existing DRM alternatives on the PC. And it help keeping the PC games alive. It was a slow implementation and the people were not happy with it either.
- If you don't like PC's DRM you have now the option of buying games on the consoles. If PS4 implements also the kind of DRM Microsoft wants you will have only Wii U as alternative in couple of years.
- Steam was just going on an existing trend, Xbone is changing the status quo in consoles into something way worse.
Baleoce
Member
Apologies if it's already been said/I missed it, but another point:
You are not restricted to buying your steam content at the official steam store. You can go through many other online outlets such as amazon, green man gaming, gamefly etc. etc. The point being, all these different shops can compete, thus bringing the regular/sales prices down potentially lower.
You are not restricted to buying your steam content at the official steam store. You can go through many other online outlets such as amazon, green man gaming, gamefly etc. etc. The point being, all these different shops can compete, thus bringing the regular/sales prices down potentially lower.
Actually, you do have to be able to see the future to say that.
An entirely different marketplace for digital games changes things.
I expect exactly that to happen, not because I think Microsoft is some great company, but because they like making money, just like Valve.
Whatever assumption you're making is being stated here as fact, which isn't how assumptions work. Unless you can actually see the future of course.
I would add one more thing about steam:
- The game that was made for windows XP it's still playable in Windows 8. Plus, steam has support for Mac and Linux.
All that talk about "nintendo doesn't have a unified account system" and in the end it was nintendo that let gamers keep their digital library of games from one generation to the other. Bought some digital games on 360? You better keep the console because there's no way you can play those games with the One.
Also, let's not forget the amazing community that PC has. When someone has a problem with a game, usually there's someone out there looking for a solution. Who can forget Durante and his Dark Souls fix. We can't have this on a console, instead we have to wait for a publisher to recognise a problem and then wait for it to get fix (if it's ever fix).
- The game that was made for windows XP it's still playable in Windows 8. Plus, steam has support for Mac and Linux.
All that talk about "nintendo doesn't have a unified account system" and in the end it was nintendo that let gamers keep their digital library of games from one generation to the other. Bought some digital games on 360? You better keep the console because there's no way you can play those games with the One.
Also, let's not forget the amazing community that PC has. When someone has a problem with a game, usually there's someone out there looking for a solution. Who can forget Durante and his Dark Souls fix. We can't have this on a console, instead we have to wait for a publisher to recognise a problem and then wait for it to get fix (if it's ever fix).
And yet MS went and made a console that is the most restrictive console, in regards to what you can do with the games.
I wouldn't put it passed MS or a company like EA (especially EA) to pull shit like this, hell EA pretty much does it right now with on-line servers for certain games.
Unlike Xbox one you can share your entire games library with an infinite number of people. Like Xbox one, only one person can access that library at a time.
Metalmurphy
Member
spindashing
Banned
The sheer venom that I have seen from people due to this XBO shit is ridiculous.
It's obvious what the difference is between steam and Xb1 DRM, but people need to educate themselves into realising steam is still a fucking highly restricted DRM system that fucks all over the same scale of consumer rights people are crowing about..
if you want to think sacrificing the ability to trade or sell your game somehow is ok because of tenuous other benefits is radically different to MSs shitty DRM, you are being very naive..
if you want to think sacrificing the ability to trade or sell your game somehow is ok because of tenuous other benefits is radically different to MSs shitty DRM, you are being very naive..
- Steam is a digital distribution platform. No one really expects to sell or trade in digital purchases, we use steam with that already in mind, however when I buy a freaking game console disc, no matter where I bought it, I sure as hell expect it to work.
Why not change expectations? You can buy a PC game on disk and not be able to trade it in either. I guess you could never do it on PC so it's not shocking but since you could previously do it on consoles, the change is even worse. However, I don't see this as a good point.
- Games are cheaper, much cheaper. Even with these restrictions in places games won't be getting cheaper, and with the used game market about to be controlled, prices for those used games will go up, not down.
- Steam has sales that XBL/PSN will never be able to compete, ever. Bringing up the occasional XBL/PSN sale with more expensive prices isn't really a good rebuttal.
This is probably the best selling point. Instead of trading games in or giving it to a friend, you can just buy games for little to nothing.
- Steam, being on PC, means games are open to free user generated content, aka modding, both through integrated or non integrated means.
This has always been a plus for PC over console. Nothing specific to next gen DRM.
- You can also install games on an infinite number of times in as many machines you want and it'll just work. No work required rather then just logging in. (Thanks eznark)
Can't you do that on XBone? Steam doesn't let you share games and many games have DRM on Steam that limit you to 3-5 machines only.
- Steam has also a guarantee for how long their services will be running. (Thanks Septimius)
Not really. It's for sure more likely to last longer than consoles but you can't guarantee this. This is an issue for both platforms.
- Steam doesn't foce DRM on you. There are more than hundred titles that work without the steam client. (Thanks moonstone)
What? Steam IS DRM. Some games have another layer of shitty DRM too. GFWL? UbisoftPlay? SecuROM? Only 3 downloads? Only 5 machines? You have GOG and other DRM free sources but generally DRM is awful on PC. edit: ah I think I get it. Sure some games are DRM free but very few and no big ones.
- You can switch to DRM-free alternatives (or just alternatives) without the need to replace hardware. (Thanks kSt)
True
- "Backwards compatibility.", being a PC there's never the fear of everything you bought becoming unplayable come "next generation". (Thanks SparkTR)
True. This has always been the case though and it's not specific to XBone.
- Steam, even though it is primarily an online digital distribution platform, it still doesn't require you to login even every 24 hours. If my ISP goes down for 2 days, I can play all my games. If I take my laptop to the freaking woods, I can play all my games. Oh, and just because it didn't work for you for some unexpected reason, you still can't compare it to an actual intentional restriction. It was a malfunction, simple as that.
I don't care if it's a malfunction or what. Steam offline is garbage. Complete and utter garbage.
- Hats
Yes.
- And fuck you I just bought Alan Wake, Trine, Trine 2, Orcs Must Die 1 and 2 for like 2€
Also yes
Why not change expectations? You can buy a PC game on disk and not be able to trade it in either. I guess you could never do it on PC so it's not shocking but since you could previously do it on consoles, the change is even worse. However, I don't see this as a good point.
- Games are cheaper, much cheaper. Even with these restrictions in places games won't be getting cheaper, and with the used game market about to be controlled, prices for those used games will go up, not down.
- Steam has sales that XBL/PSN will never be able to compete, ever. Bringing up the occasional XBL/PSN sale with more expensive prices isn't really a good rebuttal.
This is probably the best selling point. Instead of trading games in or giving it to a friend, you can just buy games for little to nothing.
- Steam, being on PC, means games are open to free user generated content, aka modding, both through integrated or non integrated means.
This has always been a plus for PC over console. Nothing specific to next gen DRM.
- You can also install games on an infinite number of times in as many machines you want and it'll just work. No work required rather then just logging in. (Thanks eznark)
Can't you do that on XBone? Steam doesn't let you share games and many games have DRM on Steam that limit you to 3-5 machines only.
- Steam has also a guarantee for how long their services will be running. (Thanks Septimius)
Not really. It's for sure more likely to last longer than consoles but you can't guarantee this. This is an issue for both platforms.
- Steam doesn't foce DRM on you. There are more than hundred titles that work without the steam client. (Thanks moonstone)
What? Steam IS DRM. Some games have another layer of shitty DRM too. GFWL? UbisoftPlay? SecuROM? Only 3 downloads? Only 5 machines? You have GOG and other DRM free sources but generally DRM is awful on PC. edit: ah I think I get it. Sure some games are DRM free but very few and no big ones.
- You can switch to DRM-free alternatives (or just alternatives) without the need to replace hardware. (Thanks kSt)
True
- "Backwards compatibility.", being a PC there's never the fear of everything you bought becoming unplayable come "next generation". (Thanks SparkTR)
True. This has always been the case though and it's not specific to XBone.
- Steam, even though it is primarily an online digital distribution platform, it still doesn't require you to login even every 24 hours. If my ISP goes down for 2 days, I can play all my games. If I take my laptop to the freaking woods, I can play all my games. Oh, and just because it didn't work for you for some unexpected reason, you still can't compare it to an actual intentional restriction. It was a malfunction, simple as that.
I don't care if it's a malfunction or what. Steam offline is garbage. Complete and utter garbage.
- Hats
Yes.
- And fuck you I just bought Alan Wake, Trine, Trine 2, Orcs Must Die 1 and 2 for like 2€
Also yes
I'll never leave Steam or PC for anything else
It's not exactly the same obviously, but it is a closed DRM ridden service. The fact that its on an open platform with alternatives, contains competitive prices, doesn't have forced online, is free (both as a service and its scalability on a purely game basis) and is open to modding doesn't change that fact. It certainly makes that fact infinitely easier to stomach, but it doesn't change it. At the end of the day, the gaming community's overwhelming embracing of Steam is the catalyst that convinced Microsoft and Publishers that a forced DRM console could be a conceivable venture within the current gaming landscape. Their logic is certainly misguided, and glosses over a lot of what makes Steam great, but if services like Steam and iOS weren't such widely embraced juggernauts within their respective circles, I honestly don't think Xbox One in its current form would exist.
Another thing is that the lack or resaleability, buying used, and lending games is the worst thing about it, almost bad enough that I don't want to use it at all, and still bad enough that I wouldn't ever buy anything on it for more than about $25-30.
It's all the other things about it that are good that balance out the badness. I have yet to see anything from MS to balance out the badness.
It's all the other things about it that are good that balance out the badness. I have yet to see anything from MS to balance out the badness.
Though I agree. The number one reason for me is that there is always an alternative. Remember all the fuss people kicked up over having to use ORIGIN in order to play certain EA games, complained about their policies and even their intrusive peripheral datamining software embedded within? Think about that if you're up at the counter about to purchase an Xbox One. You're not purchasing a console that accommodates both retail and digital, this box caters primarily to the digital distribution method.
koji kabuto
Member
Out_Of_Ammo
Member
Thanks for this. I was getting sick of all those "but it's just like steam!" posts...
scoobidoo112
Member
The greatest thing about Steam and probably the smartest thing about Valve is that it takes away the need to buy second hand because it goes below the price of used games.
They understand, unlike Microsoft and the like, that most gamers really don't have that much money to spend, so Steam simply provides the most bang for their buck and keeps its customers happy by catering to them and respecting feedback.
When Steam gives me a "license" to be able to play a game, anywhere, on- or offline, for as long as the company exists, I'm fine with it. And should Valve ever go down, I'll still own most of those games. HDD sizes in the future makes it possible to have all games you own installed at the same time and most of those work without steam, or can be made to work without steam.
When i buy a "console", which used to literally mean "box that plays games on a TV", i expect the games that i "own", that i put in the "console", to work when i do so...on a TV.
The Xbox One isn't worthy of the title "console", because it isn't. It's an online-driven media-centre. Gaming isn't even close to being its primary functionality, in fact it seems like it's going to be a terrible experience. It's meant to be the household's central device, that never moves. Kind of like a Full Tower PC that's nearly impossible to move, only in its functionalities.
They understand, unlike Microsoft and the like, that most gamers really don't have that much money to spend, so Steam simply provides the most bang for their buck and keeps its customers happy by catering to them and respecting feedback.
When Steam gives me a "license" to be able to play a game, anywhere, on- or offline, for as long as the company exists, I'm fine with it. And should Valve ever go down, I'll still own most of those games. HDD sizes in the future makes it possible to have all games you own installed at the same time and most of those work without steam, or can be made to work without steam.
When i buy a "console", which used to literally mean "box that plays games on a TV", i expect the games that i "own", that i put in the "console", to work when i do so...on a TV.
The Xbox One isn't worthy of the title "console", because it isn't. It's an online-driven media-centre. Gaming isn't even close to being its primary functionality, in fact it seems like it's going to be a terrible experience. It's meant to be the household's central device, that never moves. Kind of like a Full Tower PC that's nearly impossible to move, only in its functionalities.
CassidyIzABeast
Member
Not sure about everybody else but when I say "its just like steam", its in reference to having to activate your game with a cdkey/license.
Metalmurphy
Member
Most of your posts seem to assume I'm talking solely about the X1, I'm not, it's the console universe in general that's about to change, and that's is kinda the problem.
Always-honest
Banned
people do this?
IrishNinja
Member
i like to give most gaffers the benefit of not being dumb enough to conflate these two things, and generally assume the argument is made by people who simply don't know how steam works, or are astroturfing.
still, here we are.
still, here we are.
There never really has been a second hand game market on the PC, even long before Steam became popular. So while low sale prices are nice (Steam prices at launch are often higher then retail prices), it doesn't do much towards taking away a need that has not really existed since the 90s.
It isn't like steam. But i think what people are trying to say is that when you go to a gamestore and buy a game with steamworks on it. It is the same that you buy a disc but you don't own any of the contents. it is just a license to play the game. Also you pay the price of the game store so mostly you don't get good sales on it.
edit: also you cant sell your disc anymore even though you own the disc it is useless.
edit: also you cant sell your disc anymore even though you own the disc it is useless.
RagingAvatar
Member
Personally I'm happy that this thread exists. This information needs to get to as many people as possible.
GAF, with great power comes great responsibility.
GAF, with great power comes great responsibility.
Joke. Kind of.
1st Course
Member
What people here seems to forget is that Steam is not comparable to consoles at all in the essence.
Steam is a digital service that sells digital goods just like PSN or XBL, can you sell your games on PSN, iOS or XBL? Of course not it's a digital service.
A video games console on the other hand is a physical box that is supposed to play physical media just like a VCR or a DVD player, If I can sell my DVD collection then why I can't sell my X1 games too?
tl; dr: Steam =/= Xbone
Steam is a digital service that sells digital goods just like PSN or XBL, can you sell your games on PSN, iOS or XBL? Of course not it's a digital service.
A video games console on the other hand is a physical box that is supposed to play physical media just like a VCR or a DVD player, If I can sell my DVD collection then why I can't sell my X1 games too?
tl; dr: Steam =/= Xbone
REMEMBER CITADEL
Banned
I don't think any reasonable person would claim that Xbox One was "just like Steam", they both have their idiosyncrasies, their good and bad sides. However, when it comes to DRM aspects that are the point of contention, they do appear to be quite similar on the fundamental level - again, with some differences separating the two approaches. Making a detailed comparison at this point, however, is an exercise in pointlessness; we have an established service that has had almost a decade to mature on one side, and a platform that hasn't even been entirely explained, let alone launched, on the other.
It's the argument that the marketing firms that have been hired to astroturf are desperately trying to make catch on.
Metalmurphy
Member
About once every 2 pages in all the threads discussing the matter.
RagingAvatar
Member
This is a good point - I think one of the major sticking points about Xbox One is that because when we buy Steam games, we understand quite clearly that we're buying the game for Steam - a digital platform.
The history of consoles, where we buy a physical disc that contains the game, doesn't have DRM can be passed on, resold etc. means that many people who walk into Xbox One without any clue as to how this has changed.
Whipped Spartan
Member
For alot of people its the same for them personally. Just don't buy it. It will be ok.
I don't think anyone is saying X1 is exactly like Steam but there are similarities.
-X1 is a digital distribution system like Steam, Origin, iTunes, etc. Retail games act exactly like Steam retail games, the key ties the game to your account and the disk is just a means for install so that you do not have to download the whole game
-With regards to choice I think you guys have it wrong. If I want to play an EA game or even a Valve title I have to use their service no ifs ands or butts. That is the same with the X1, if I want to play the next Halo guess what? I need to have the Xbox.
-Saying you don't have to buy your games through Steam and get them elsewhere like Amazon is again very silly. X1 games will be sold at retail where there are frequent sales on new games. Arkham Asylum was $40 day 1 at Canadian Wal-Marts and I was able ot get Gears Judgement, God of War and Monster Hunter 3 WiiU as a buy two get one free within 2 weeks of their release. Sales exist for retail games and we don't know what they will do with digital sales yet.
I agree that Steam handles stuff like online check ins (By not doing it) and backwards compatibility (Won't comment on this but it is a silly comparison) better but you can't deny what MS is attempting to do is create a digital distribution like Steam but is built for consoles.
-X1 is a digital distribution system like Steam, Origin, iTunes, etc. Retail games act exactly like Steam retail games, the key ties the game to your account and the disk is just a means for install so that you do not have to download the whole game
-With regards to choice I think you guys have it wrong. If I want to play an EA game or even a Valve title I have to use their service no ifs ands or butts. That is the same with the X1, if I want to play the next Halo guess what? I need to have the Xbox.
-Saying you don't have to buy your games through Steam and get them elsewhere like Amazon is again very silly. X1 games will be sold at retail where there are frequent sales on new games. Arkham Asylum was $40 day 1 at Canadian Wal-Marts and I was able ot get Gears Judgement, God of War and Monster Hunter 3 WiiU as a buy two get one free within 2 weeks of their release. Sales exist for retail games and we don't know what they will do with digital sales yet.
I agree that Steam handles stuff like online check ins (By not doing it) and backwards compatibility (Won't comment on this but it is a silly comparison) better but you can't deny what MS is attempting to do is create a digital distribution like Steam but is built for consoles.
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