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[Ezalc]

Stupid mechanic and makes no sense given the game has revive items. No way to defend this sort of bullshit, if I can revive other fallen party members then I should be allowed to revive the MC.

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

My favorite version of this in a game is where you would get a game over if your main character in FF13 died and the last boss had an instant death spell that hit like 50% of the time without some specific equipment (and still hit like 30% of the time with the equipment).

You can be owning this boss and then he RNGs targeting the MC with Death and RNG decides that your main character is dead.

Haven't played P5 yet, but FF13 was terrible with this.

 

[PK Gaming]

It is... at least in P4.

It's not true in that game either. In Persona 4,

Spoiler

they get their powers after accepting their Shadow. The protagonist doesn't specifically factor into this.

 

[Laughing Banana]

Really, you have so many venue to circumvent this or at the very least minimize the possibility of it happening as much as possible I am actually quite baffled by the "terrible" word in the OP here.

Is it actually "terrible" for the game to actually expect you to face an additional challenge? A challenge that the game gave you so many tools and ways to circumvent, if you are willing to spend time for it? It's not like it is unreasonable to begin with.

Should the game give you *everything* on a silver platter then?

 

[ethomaz]

Lorewise when a combatant's HP goes to zero, they're just knocked out, not dead.

Because MC is alive and allow others revive them using Persona or others powers.

MC dies = no more Persona powers... it is really game over.

 

[Leafhopper]

It is... at least in P4.

Every persona is tied to MC... even the others party member persona... MC has the God powers that give powers to others party members.

Did we play the same game?

 

[Zombegoast]

Welcome to the MegaTen series where the very first encounter in Nocturne can kill you.

In all seriousness it's not that bad.

 

[Radical Edward]

That is actually true, it's one of my gripes with the game how difficulty is handled, in earlier games the enemy would pinpoint to your weaknesses like hawks, fire emblem style and get as many kills as possible, but in this one they might exploit an weakness and then throw a meaningless buff. Not sure if difficulty changes the AI at all, but i didn't want to risk the game being too hard since hard mode in earlier games hard mode was too hard for me. Though i don't agree with what you said about controls.

I'm talking about stealth controls, sorry. I like the game and I think manual saving is fine (I love Nier, Yakuza and Alien Isolation) I just feel maybe giving 1 turn to revive might eliminate unluckiness while forcing you to scramble to revive the MC.

 

[Irishonion]

Enemy triple attacked me after a ambush.

Didn't loose much but was like wtf.

 

[duckroll]

Or you could just save when you come across a safe room. They're literally marked with a big green S on the map. How hard is it to remember to save every time you find one? Especially if it's happened to you before?

Is pressing start and selecting a slot before pressing X really that compelling of a mechanic that you would argue against it?

 

[Amir0x]

The funny thing is auto-saving at the points where it makes sense takes nothing away from the game's difficulty, but doesn't overly punish you for forgetting to do something almost no game has required you to do for 15 years.

Do you really want me to start pointing out all the games even in recent years that don't have autosave? There are a metric fuckton.

You're gonna to need to make your points without inventing facts, because it's not helping your case.

 

[MaximumSpider]

My favorite version of this in a game is where you would get a game over if your main character in FF13 died and the last boss had an instant death spell that hit like 50% of the time without some specific equipment (and still hit like 30% of the time with the equipment).

You can be owning this boss and then he RNGs targeting the MC with Death and RNG decides that your main character is dead.

Haven't played P5 yet, but FF13 was terrible with this.

Persona 4 had this with a boss inflicting fear and then using a move that instantly kills anyone with that status. Easy to avoid if you have equipment that prevents you from having that status. I don't know what happened there in FF13.

 

[NipplesAndToes23]

I remember this in 3. Didn't like it at all. From the little bit I played of 3 I preferred doing stuff around the school and town more than the actual battles which is strange because in other RPGs the battles are half of what I play for.

 

[Scrooge McDuck]

Because MC is alive and allow others revive them using Persona or others powers.

MC dies = no more Persona powers.

This is not a thing. HP reaching zero is not dying. There are even instances when party members explicitly run away when their HP reaches zero. There are also Persona users who actually die outside of combat and nobody could revive them.

 

[Korigama]

IIRC in Persona 4 the "save MC from death" bonus was the reward for just establishing the link.

They've moved it to rank 9 here.

Though it is understandable to move it further along than where it used to be, I'd say they overcompensated by placing it just before the link maxed.

 

[pa22word]

People who play Persona of all things hurling "get gud" at people with a straight face has got to be one of the oddest things I've seen on gaf in ages.

The series has pretty much always been a casual, more easy going version of SMT. That's literally been the series' raison d'être since P3. You guys aren't playing competitive starcraft here or anything, you're playing a surface level rpg dating sim. Get over yourselves, christ >.>

 

[Man God]

The entire battle system would need an overhaul. As it is right now, the main character is way too powerful for the game not to end when they die.

They did it in SMT IV Final for the better.

 

[duckroll]

People who play Persona of all things hurling "get gud" at people with a straight face has got to be one of the oddest things I've seen on gaf in ages.

The series has always been a casual, more easy going version of SMT. That's literally been the series' raison d'être since P3. You guys aren't playing competitive starcraft here or anything, you're playing a surface level rpg dating sim. Get over yourselves, christ >.>

Tbh, SMT is just as "casual" these days. The challenge trophy has gone to Devil Survivor now. Lol.

 

[Biske]

I dunno what a good solution is, but yeah, it blows, blows hard when you die. Specially given the nature of Shin Megami games sometimes the right group of enemies can jack your shit up out of no where super hardcore.

 

[ethomaz]

Did we play the same game?

I think ou didn't understand why and how MC received the God powers that allow the use of Personas for him (he is the God that can control all Personas) and for others party members (MC give Persona powers to them that are tied with their relationship with MC).

Every Persona power only exists because MC received the God powers to control and use these Personas.

That is P4 btw.

 

[Error]

I haven't had many, if any, hama and mudo gameovers. I think you would've gone insane with SMT3 op. At least in Persona if you miss or if you use a skill the enemy drains, nulls or reflects you dont lose turns.

 

[PK Gaming]

People who play Persona of all things hurling "get gud" at people with a straight face has got to be one of the oddest things I've seen on gaf in ages.

The series has always been a casual, more easy going version of SMT. That's literally been the series' raison d'être since P3. You guys aren't playing competitive starcraft here or anything, you're playing a surface level rpg dating sim. Get over yourselves, christ >.>

Except Persona 3 and 5 are more challenging than your typical SMT game.

 

[Amir0x]

People who play Persona of all things hurling "get gud" at people with a straight face has got to be one of the oddest things I've seen on gaf in ages.

The series has pretty much always been a casual, more easy going version of SMT. That's literally been the series' raison d'être since P3. You guys aren't playing competitive starcraft here or anything, you're playing a surface level rpg dating sim. Get over yourselves, christ >.>

Exactly! there are so many ways to protect a character from such deaths, and Persona 5 isn't hard. People who still therefore find it frustrating genuinely do need to improve or put it on an easier difficulty. Going down this route in Persona eventually there will just be nothing at all that can ever put player's at risk. A totally neutered experience.

 

[KarmaCow]

Could you control party members in Persona 1 and 2? If not, maybe it's a holdover from P3 where they decided it would better to make it so the game ends rather than crossing your fingers, hoping that the AI doesn't fuck up.

 

[Zukkoyaki]

My favorite version of this in a game is where you would get a game over if your main character in FF13 died and the last boss had an instant death spell that hit like 50% of the time without some specific equipment (and still hit like 30% of the time with the equipment).

You can be owning this boss and then he RNGs targeting the MC with Death and RNG decides that your main character is dead.

Haven't played P5 yet, but FF13 was terrible with this.

It happened again in FFXIII-2. The final boss at an instant kill with a damn near 100% hit rate and you had to just pray that it hit one of your minions and not your main character.

 

[Ferrio]

Is pressing start and selecting a slot before pressing X really that compelling of a mechanic that you would argue against it?

To be honest for games like this or stuff like Etrian Odyssey ya... manually saving is really cathartic.

 

[xxracerxx]

Are we starting to openly discuss spoilers in here?

 

[Jawbreaker]

I dunno, SMTIV has a reputation among the Megaten fanbase for being super easy...

The save system trivializes most battles and it just ends up being an exercise in constant reloads until you get lucky enough to survive a more punishing battle by attrition. It doesn't necessarily push you to get better when you can just get by with some luck and trial and error. In Persona 5, I'm always more cautious while proceeding through a dungeon because I know a stupid mistake can result in lost progress; however, despite losing in-game progress, I still feel like I progressed by getting a better sense of how to fight the enemy and its weaknesses. With SMT IV, I never felt any tension because I could abuse the save system.

 

[Sophia]

Could you control party members in Persona 1 and 2? If not, maybe it's a holdover from P3 where they decided it would better to make it so the game ends than crossing your fingers that the AI doesn't fuck up.

Yes, you could. Persona 3 is the oddball out with being only able to control the protagonist.

 

[Korigama]

Could you control party members in Persona 1 and 2? If not, maybe it's a holdover from P3 where they decided it would better to make it so the game ends rather than crossing your fingers, hoping that the AI doesn't fuck up.

3 is the odd one out in not allowing for full control of your party (which wasn't changed until P3P).

 

[TimeEffect]

First Persona game, and I had a bit of a moan about this earlier.

It feels like a really arbitrary condition of the battle system more than anything. There's no story justification for why the rest of the party inexplicably lose their shit and forget their ability to use revive spells or items.

It's not even as if the deaths themselves have been unfair. Generally speaking it's due to a couple of bad decisions on my part that I lose. That's fine, but when a loss comes through an instant kill spell or an unlucky miss, it makes the loss in progress harder to swallow.

I feel the bigger issue is the save system - particularly in palaces. Save scumming in the safe rooms rooms is counter productive since it can ruin the pacing, and if you have to travel between rooms it causes the enemies to respawn.

I feel there should have been a checkpoint system separate from the save rooms, so as to mitigate time wasted if you die. That way the current system and difficulty can remain while curbing frustration. EDIT: The checkpoints can also be spaced as not to be too generous, which is a risk with autosaves.

Hell, the current save system could remain if they gave the player some options if the MC falls. Maybe they should be given the choice to incur a penalty - sacrificing a Persona perhaps - for reviving the MC, or to start back from the save room. That way the unique nature of the MC would be retained and potentially used against you if you're careless.

This is mostly spitballing though. I feel it's something they can look at in the future, and is one of my only criticisms for what has been a wonderful introduction to the series.

As a first timer, I actually like the save room system

It's a sigh of relief to find one, and I think it's great that I can't always hard rush a dungeon.

Often, I take several trips back to the real world and the Persona world through the save rooms for supplies, items, etc. I don't mind it at all as the game is crafted with this in mind.

After playing the first palace, I only got a game over once because of my MC dying. But after that, I made sure to keep him alive. It wasn't particularly too bad to do this, but maybe later levels/difficulties make it unfair and not fun.

But the save room system seems fine to me, as it encourages me to better prepare for a dungeon run when traveling to and from the dungeon. It made the dungeon feel like a multi-day task, but I could chip away at it and take breaks instead of doing one exhausting run at it

 

[DekuLink]

I enjoy a challenge and risks, but really do not enjoy replaying long sections I already finished, it just feels like a waste of time, which I have felt more and more the older I got, since I have more I want to do with my free time now, and less free time to spend.

 

[Neoweee]

They did it in SMT IV Final for the better.

And Devil Survivor 1/2!

IMO, removing MC Death = Game Over, adding non-random skill inheritance, and fusion search / auto-summoning from the compendium, were the three big "Wow, the developers are really interested in developing the fundamentals of the series!"

And then P5 regresses in a few key ways.

My wildly unjustified prediction is that, whenever an upgraded version of the game comes out years from now, it will eliminate the MC death = Game Over mechanic, just like P4G implemented the non-random fusions that more recent SMT games allowed.

 

[duckroll]

To be honest for games like this or stuff like Etrian Odyssey ya... manually saving is really cathartic.

I can... understand it.... but I think ultimately it is a physical action being overvalued. If it autosaves, the catharsis will still be there in the form of actually pressing the button to open a safe room door, and being able to make a manual save for OCD players.

 

[Zophar]

I don't like it, but you wouldn't fear Mudo/Hama spells if it didn't exist. It's more forgiveable than say FF13, where there's no real strategic reason intrinsic to the game balance for it to exist.

 

[Strangelove77]

It's probably been said already, but the main character is extremely powerful compared to everyone else in your party. If you equip the right Persona in whatever dungeon you're in it shouldn't be a problem. You're only as weak as you make yourself out to be. You have that choice while no one else on your party does.
Also, safe rooms are around every corner thanks to the layout of the palaces. You should always be close to one except in the last dungeon, which I admit can be a problem. If you die you should only have lost less than 15 minutes tops.

And I'm not even taking the confidant system into account. You can level those up to where other party members will take lethal attacks for you.

It's not an unfair system.

 

[Dangansona]

TimeEffect, I do like the feeling you are describing about reaching a safe room, but but ultimately I think the best way to please everyone would be to make some other incentive for reaching one (sp?), implement an autosave or battle retry, and keep it where MC dies and you lose the fight.

 

[Kindekuma]

Welcome to the SMT and it's spin off series. If the fear of a game over isn't present when your allies can revive you it takes away the need to be cautious during battles. P5 is far more forgiving this time around with safe areas to save and heal. So if you die it's hardly any progress lost unless you're careless.

I personally don't have an issue with how game overs are treated in P5. Battles are 95% initiated by me ambushing, so if I get swept it's my fault for just sloppy play.

 

[xxracerxx]

I can... understand it.... but I think ultimately it is a physical action being overvalued. If it autosaves, the catharsis will still be there in the form of actually pressing the button to open a safe room door, and being able to make a manual save for OCD players.

There are times where I don't want an auto save to happen when I enter a save room though, especially if I am exploiting using them to get that last few experience points I need for a level.

 

[kagamin]

To be honest for games like this or stuff like Etrian Odyssey ya... manually saving is really cathartic.

I can understand why people want auto save, just make it a toggleable option honestly, I'm too ingrained in my habits and OCD to ever want to purposefully do away with manual saving, but I know people don't really like.

 

[Sophia]

There are times where I don't want an auto save to happen when I enter a save room though, especially if I am exploiting using them to get that last few experience points I need for a level.

This is why an auto-save would have to be in it's own slot. It's a no-go with the design of the game if it overwrites an existing non-autosave.

And maybe also a timer or toggle on it.

 

[duckroll]

There are times where I don't want an auto save to happen when I enter a save room though, especially if I am exploiting using them to get that last few experience points I need for a level.

I don't understand what difference that would make though?

 

[MaximumSpider]

Only time I found the game to be really annoying with its rules was when (END GAME P5 SPOILERS):

Spoiler

the game made you go from the beginning of the Depths to Mementos to that first safe room. Now that was a long stretch to go without saving and I was pissed when I died and had to restart from the very beginning

I didn't really like that session.

 

[OniBarubary]

Have you seen that charismatic dick-slinger hit a Level 10 Confidant level? If I was in his party and saw him eat dirt in front of me I'd probably give up on life too and swan dive into the grave alongside him.

 

[Dark_castle]

Isis bruh

 

[xxracerxx]

I don't understand what difference that would make though?

If it was only assigned a single slot, that wouldn't be a problem but if it was setup like Zelda it would be a huge issue if I am coming and going repeatedly.

 

[geomon]

Git Gud

But yeah, it's bullshit.

 

[duckroll]

If it was only assigned a single slot, that wouldn't be a problem but if it was setup like Zelda it would be a huge issue if I am coming and going repeatedly.

I'm simply suggesting a system where there is Network Save, Auto Save, and then the same 16 manual save slots. I don't think this takes anything away from the game!

 

[xxracerxx]

I'm simply suggesting a system where there is Network Save, Auto Save, and then the same 16 manual save slots. I don't think this takes anything away from the game!

Well I didn't realize that! It would be fine and welcomed if it did that!

 

[Jeffrey]

also if this is like any other recent persona game, the 'tension' is basically lost mid to late game anyways due to you fusing completely broke ass stuff.

Was persona suppose to be a tense hard game? I always felt like its a fun romp where you try to fuse the most broke ass stuff and have a blast (at least on normal). the frustrating rng deaths just felt out of place.

Maybe I just don't 'get it'.