CorporateClown
Member
Had this happen to me in the secnd palace with that onion looking enemy with the instant kill. It targeted MC, it hit and I was just like "oh ok". Lost like an hour.
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Game Over when MC dies in Persona is a terrible mechanic. Why is this still a thing?
- Thread starter Jeffrey
- Start date
This is actually a problem that plagues recent MegaTen games in general. Persona 5 is a bit better about it.
Is it really just recent Megaten games? I mean it's ultimately the natural outcome of what the gameplay mechanics are. If you provide so much freedom for fusion, once the player has enough options available, the game is easy to break. There's no way to balance for it without making the critical path insufferable, because not everyone will put in the time to exploit the options available and they shouldn't be expected to. Someone who only casually uses fusion to get better demons must still be able to complete the game, and will probably find the late game decently challenging. Someone who exploits the shit out of it, will have a bunch of null/reflect demons/persona, along with really insane ways to abuse battles. It's just what it is.
And honestly, is it a "problem" at all? I don't think so.
SMTIV A had a good idea to get around it partially by making the bosses tougher and putting them back to back to back.
Definitely felt like that in SMTIV and the Devil Survivor games but even though Apocalypse ruined the dungeon crawling experience by having death not just be barely a penalty but sometimes actually beneficial but I thought the bosses felt challenging throughout the game.
edit: yea boss rushes made it so you couldn't just have a couple good demon carries or just nuke right away.
Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
I don't get people who are too "proud" not to use easier difficulty levels and yet proceed to whine when the game throws a modicum of difficulty towards their way that they need to overcome--and it's not like the game don't give you ways to overcome that.
So weird. As if they want to be praised or feel good for overcoming hardships yet when a hardship come knocking on their door all they do is complain, complain, complain.
Yeah, you're right. I guess it depends on the game too. I feel like Persona 5 does a reasonably good job so far of balancing out the mid-game without going to either extreme.
To be fair, death in regular SMT IV was exceptionally dumb. It was faster to reload the game then go through Charon's animations each time, and accepting his offer was usually a bad idea anyhow.
Honestly don't know to say. Been playing on hard the entire time and the only problem I had was the first Palace. After that it's been absolutely smooth sailing. Ran out of resources in the second Palace but did the third and fourth Palaces were done in one day. Just gotta learn how to manage things a bit more. Especially Personas. After getting Mudo'd and Hamon'd so many times I got a Persona null to both. Losing progress was never a problem though because I save whenever I can causing minimum time loss.
I have been extremely lucky in that I have only had 1 game over on normal so far, and it was in Momentos. There was some gang banger of an enemy for a boss in there that was a floating black goat with a torch on its forehead? I did like nothing, and even what he was weak to didn't do shit. He would confuse everyone at once...ugh. It was a rough fight.
If we're going to analyse that, I'm going to say that I feel Hashino doesn't really like the concept of parties in games but feels "forced" into it due to conventions. His first game at Atlus was Maken X, which is a first person slasher. Complete player agency, no party or menu gameplay. When he made SMT3, he removed the concept of a human party completely, and made it about the Demifiend and his demons. Lots of isolation, every other character in the game acts against you somewhat or courts your favor. With DDS he toyed around with a traditional party, but didn't stick around to direct the sequel. Instead he makes Persona 3, which has a party system where only the MC can be directly ordered. I think there's a running theme there. He changed Persona with each entry due to fan feedback, but given the freedom to make "anything" he wanted after Persona 4, he created Catherine, again a title with a single character being controlled.
Maybe it's coincidence, maybe it's subconscious preference, I don't know. But Hashino strikes me as someone who really wants to make games where the player -is- the character he (sorry, women don't play videogames) controls and likes building games and stories entirely around that. It'll be interesting to see what his idea of a fantasy RPG is.
NipplesAndToes23
Member
Is this really a mechanic or a design choice? I thought a mechanic was like a tool or an ability in a game.
Mustang 00
Member
I like how teammates take a hit for you if its the finishing blow.
Its just something I learned to live with for playing persona games for so long. Its weird though cause I never was hit by mudo or hama type skills ever as the MC. If I ever was, I was resurrected by homunculus immediately, this may be in 3.
Its just something I learned to live with for playing persona games for so long. Its weird though cause I never was hit by mudo or hama type skills ever as the MC. If I ever was, I was resurrected by homunculus immediately, this may be in 3.
It made sense in Persona 3 because you couldn't command your allies but there's no reason for it to be in P4 & P5
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
Immediately what came to mind. This never bothered me in the Persona games, but FF13 was infuriating. Entirely luck based.
OniBarubary
Banned
Wow, I didn't know he didn't do DDS2. That's...interesting.
Always disliked this mechanic. Not a deal breaker of course, buts till.
Yeah. I've seen people playing on hard around level 10 and never got one shot. No way the first boss can one shot the player around that level on normal.
Yeah. I've seen people playing on hard around level 10 and never got one shot. No way the first boss can one shot the player around that level on normal.
Vital Tundra
Member
Lets not act like its a good mechanic. The entirety of Persona 5's battle system isnt very great. Its fun to get new persona and customize but besides that the strategy just isn't there. I was hoping for an overhaul of the battle system but we got a slightly deeper P4. Maybe in P6.
RyougaSaotome
Member
I have zero problem with this being a thing.
I think MC dying = gameover is a good thing, and it's one of the reasons why I play the modern Persona games unlike any other RPG series.
I love the tension that comes with seeing a shadow cast mudo or hama and hoping to god shit doesn't fall apart for me. Or on the flip side, seeing a shadow do that and knowing that my team is more than equipped to completely nullify the attack.
The fear of insta-kill attacks in Persona games is one of my favorite feelings when it comes to RPG. I don't think it's something that should exist in every game, but I think it adds a lot here.
Bamboo 竹
Member
I agree with you OP. Terrible mechanic without any meaningful reason to stay.
Ho ho ho ho!! You are playing an Atlus game! Just suck it up guys and learn to play by the game's mechanics. The "One More" mechanic is a double-edged sword. Oh yeah, some enemies don't have a weak point but are very susceptible to status ailments and have high critical success.
On a serious note, did you ever try playing around with your character's skills? It' been put there for a reason.
Otherwise, safety difficulty is your game.
On a serious note, did you ever try playing around with your character's skills? It' been put there for a reason.
Otherwise, safety difficulty is your game.
This is such a bullshit mechanic from modern day RPGs.
I'm glad that's not in the game so I actually have to be careful of engaging into a fight and defending/curing/buffing up if needed.
SatelliteOfLove
Member
David Sirlin, our most valuable video game pundit and philosopher, once again proving that fact, yet again.
Bamboo 竹
Member
Uhhhh... I mean what the heck is this argument? There are Atlus games, even Persona games without that mechanic like Persona 1, 2 and Q and they work better on that side of the battle gameplay.
shadow2810
Member
You played 2 1/2 hours and didn't save?
I was in the pyramid... no safe rooms, at least as far as I saw.
AlexFlame116
Member
I'm okay with it. No problem at all since I save like a maniac anyways due to past experiences in OG Final Fantasies. Still can't comprehend the 4 hour+ of not saving that some people do but that's just me. I just make sure my MC is buffed and shielded at all times. I also focus on healing a lot. Got me through Persona 4 just fine.
Oh come on dude.
There's quite a few, not to mention the dungeon is set up in such a way you can go outside and save between sections.
This makes it sound like you didn't play the game...
There are areas where you have to go an hour or more without saving and there's no way beyond an accessory to buff your main character if your party gets ambushed, as far as I know.
Are you defending this horrible gameplay choice? Is it less awful if I arbitrarily lost 90 minutes? 60 minutes?
Come on.
No, just pointing out what you said is wrong. I don't think I made an argument either way.
What I said isn't wrong.
I said I didn't see any safe rooms. They aren't near the start of the pyramid. I didn't see any save points.
Devilgunman
Member
Both. MC death is a design choice to add tension to the game and the game itself provides many mechanics to reduce possibilities of that to happen. People bitch so much about Hama/Mudo. If you're so afraid of them, just equip MC with Persona resisting to them. Also, how the hell do people loss hours of playtime when there are so many save rooms in a dungeon? Don't you people save the game before going to the dungeon?
shadow2810
Member
You can exit the pyramid and save, no?
DeadPhoenix
Member
Because the MC is the party. It's one of the biggest issue with the p3 and up games, more so then getting a game over just for him dieing. The had to add baton pass just to give you a train to ever use other character, otherwise the only time you would is to save sp... Of course since baton pass goes both ways it also makes the MC the best option for that as well.
... Seriously atlus give the other party members multiple persona again.
... Seriously atlus give the other party members multiple persona again.
bobbychalkers
Member
It normally wouldn't bother me as much in older persona games but I've lost quite a bit of progress one time due to clunky stealth mechanics and spread apart save areas. I accidentally jumped right out in the open and got bodied by a red monster. Coming off of Tokyo Mirage Sessions ability to save anywhere has me missing that mechanic instead.
MaximumSpider
Banned
That and the Pyramid has several safe rooms that unlock after you complete a floor.
LordKasual
Banned
I mean, i do...it's just annoying when this pops up because of how silly it is. It makes sense in turn base strategy games like Fire Emblem or Shining Force because you are able to actually control how much danger the MC is in. But in a regular RPG...it's just RNG.
It's fake difficulty in RPG format, really.
Obviously... just like any dungeon.
Which gets you 0% closer to the next safe room.
Let's not get things twisted here... even if I lost 10 minutes due to this sort of poor design it would be poor design. There's no excuse for it.
Phrozenflame500
Member
It's a little bullshit, and since Persona lies heavily on the "HP cheap, SP/items rare" system I don't really understand it. Like I'm all for the game having difficulty but it seems like a bit arbitrary since every other teammate can be knocked out and rev'd like it's nothing but once your MC goes down it's over. I'd rather they remove it and just buffed the enemies across the board to compensate.
That being said it was never that big of a deal for me since I did save religiously.
That being said it was never that big of a deal for me since I did save religiously.
Many JRPGS have main characters and allow combat to continue if the "MC" dies.
I feel like the issue more with the recent Persona games is that the MC is toooooo OP. Like seriously, why have a party when the MC can just do pretty much everything? MC dying = game over makes sense just because MC is a god. But it kind of makes party members just a support or meat shields instead of equal playable characters.
Next Persona games should start rebalancing the party system. Persona 3, 4 and 5 is just too easy because you can exploit MC's OP-ness from the very beginning.
Next Persona games should start rebalancing the party system. Persona 3, 4 and 5 is just too easy because you can exploit MC's OP-ness from the very beginning.
NipplesAndToes23
Member
Why do y'all keep on calling them safe rooms, do y'all mean save rooms?
crabhammer
Member
I honestly don't believe you. Are you personas up to snuff? Are you wearing decent gear? I'm on hard and I didn't grind at all (just fought every enemy on the way to boss once, and maybe did some fights twice) and there wasn't a single moment where any of his moves one shot anyone in my party.
On topic, I don't really mind the mechanic much. I'll say that I don't think it makes much thematic sense, and that I wouldn't be yearning for it were it gone. I do think it adds tension, and since this is my third rodeo with Persona (fourth if we count Q) and having also played a few other SMTs I don't have much of an issue having a general idea of what enemies are weak to and what kind of attacks to expect from them.
I also fused a nul phys and nul gun persona somewhere in the second or third dungeon and rolling around with that is a pretty good fail safe. Made the
fourth dungeon boss bird thing