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[Mejilan]

Remember: XIII

 

[neptunes]

I think the subject of triggers is a reasonable basis for discussion, are they not?

 

[Mike Works]

Well, let us get talking about gameplay again for a second, and I'll give you my thoughts.

If the controls are set up as is for the guns, I would rather use the X360 pad than the rev remote. The whole setup seems a little gimmicky to me to be honest. So you can twist your hand sideways and go gangsta style...is this anything other than a novelty?

It's already been stated that was added simply for immersion. You move your hand holding your weapon in real life, you move your hand holding your weapon in the game. That and some people will think it looks cool. Why you're harping on a neat little bonus is beyond me. It's like bitching about Killzone's excellent reload animations. They don't add anything to the gameplay! GOD SONY!

Also, using the revmote to lob and toss grenades doesn't seem much more than a novelty as well. For example, you could use one of the triggers on the X360 pad for throwing grenades. Tap on the trigger lightly to roll a grenade and hold it down to throw it.

Using your control scheme, explain to me how this would work:

You want to lob a grenade over, lets say, a slot machine and just the slot machine- so you want to lob it in the air like 5 feet forward.

You want to lob a grenade over a series of slot machines across the room- so you want to lob it in the air 50 feet forward.

How do you accomplish this if you can only throw it long distances (as tapping the trigger causes an underhand roll)? Also, how do you differentiate how long or short you want to roll the grenade if you choose to go that route if you're only allowed to click the shoulder button?

Also, the feel of the weapon firing is better on the X360 pad using the trigger to fire. You can use the trigger for varying fire rates, and coupled with the rumbling motion of the pad gives you a more solid feel of firing a weapon. Holding down or pressing the A button to fire doesn't sound too exciting.

Well you've (obviously) never used the Rev controller, so making this claim at this point is pretty stupid (especially since the revmote DOES have rumble, DOES have a trigger button, and is more shaped like an f'n gun than the Xbox controller).

Seriously.

I think he's right. They just have that look to them... look closely. I dunno though, I'm not a tech expert.

How the hell would you be able to rotate in a 3D area in real time in a firefight if the backgrounds were pre-rendered.

Seriously, what am I missing here?

I think the point MrBob is trying to make is that there's a difference between playing a rail shooter (which this game is NOT) and playing a first person shooter.

With Red Steel, you're always going to feel like you're playing an arcade shooting game, no? It's obviously more versatile, but that sounds like the basic experience.

you're not pointing the controller at the screen you're not pointing the controller at the screen you're not pointing the controller at the screen you're not pointing the controller at the screen you're not pointing the controller at the screen you're not pointing the controller at the screen you're not pointing the controller at the screen

This will feel more like playing a PC FPS (when it comes to aiming) than anything else. You'll be manipulating the revmote a lot more like manipulating a mouse than an arcade light gun.

 

[SpiffyG]

dude, it's as much a trigger as the z trigger on the n64 controller. or do you not consider that a trigger out of nowhere?

Triggers that actually look like gun triggers.

I dunno, I'm assuming that's what he is thinking.

Mike Works, I think I'm the one missing something. I said I'm not a techy so I have no idea really.

 

[Chrono]

who cares if the B button looks like a trigger or not? a lot of people play FPS games on a freakin' MOUSE. a mouse. click click click. does that feel like a gun to you? not even close. :lol


and yet it's considered by the majority of gamers to be superior to regular controllers, triggers or no triggers.

 

[pgtl_10]

I keep hearing the screens are beautiful and i know they in-game screens. How did you guys see the shots?

 

[DrGAKMAN]

I doubt you even have to hold the revmote out in front of you to aim in the game...the players are just doing it 'cos they feel more immersed in the game that they feel they have to.

 

[gjb-sensei]

That doesn't look like a trigger button to me. That looks like another shoulder button....

It's a trigger; it just isn't an analog trigger like the ones on the Dreamcast, Xbox and Xbox 360 controllers.

 

[Speevy]

you're not pointing the controller at the screen you're not pointing the controller at the screen you're not pointing the controller at the screen you're not pointing the controller at the screen you're not pointing the controller at the screen you're not pointing the controller at the screen you're not pointing the controller at the screen

You're exactly right. In a game that lets you use a simulated gun/aiming scope (or fishing pole, conductor's baton, etc.), no one will ever point it at the screen (or near the console itself).

I can just see the people operating their Revolution controllers from the area surrounding their lap.

 

[pgtl_10]

Please someone tell me how did you guys see the screenshots?

 

[Smiles and Cries]

I missed the whole thing... but WOW

 

[Chris Remo]

I doubt you even have to hold the revmote out in front of you to aim in the game...the players are just doing it 'cos they feel more immersed in the game that they feel they have to.

It's probably not even that, I bet it's just because it would have made for pretty lame pictures if they were sitting on a couch with the thing in their laps. I mean I'm sure some people will get all into it holding their arms out, but for the magazine they probably just wanted good shots.

 

[SpiffyG]

I doubt you even have to hold the revmote out in front of you to aim in the game...the players are just doing it 'cos they feel more immersed in the game that they feel they have to.

Yeah, you could just put it on your lap just like a traditional controller.

 

[Matt]

Look around 1UP, you'll find a link there.

 

[Trident]

Hey guys, I want to get a piece of candy. Hmm, how should I grab it...

or

It's so hard to decide

 

[Mrbob]

Speevy that isn't what I'm saying.

I can't imagine someone actually preferring to use an analog stick to aim over a pointer. That just makes no sense.

Well I wouldn't normally, but I'm talking about choosing the lesser of two evils overall. My perfect controller would be the X360 with gyro functionality which you could move around slightly to use as an aiming device...

I agree that analog stick sensitivity will not be as precise as the revmote. However, it doesn't make analog stick aiming bad. With a smart developer it can be close. I'm suggesting the feel shooting a gun would be better with the X360 pad, because of the analog trigger and the rumble motion. I've never been a huge fan of FPS games on consoles until the X360. In fact, I've probably played more PC FPS games than almost any user on this side of Borys. The precision of the keyboard and mouse is great, but the actually feeling of firing a gun has always been lacking in a key/mouse setup. With the X360 pad you get fantastic precision, and while not as nice as the key/mouse setup, it is still excellent. It is the first console gamepad I would feel comfortable playing FPS games not named Halo or Halo 2. It is a big step up from the Xbox pad as well. Between the contoured nature of the X360 pad, and the analog triggers, and the rumble feature, there actually feels like there is some substance behind firing a gun in a fps with the pad.

Let me be clear one last time...

I agree that the Revmote will be more precise in aiming!

I just don't think that alone makes it a better controller for FPS games on consoles, because the X360 pad is far from bad.

 

[PkunkFury]

It's already been stated that was added simply for immersion. You move your hand holding your weapon in real life, you move your hand holding your weapon in the game. That and some people will think it looks cool. Why you're harping on a neat little bonus is beyond me. It's like bitching about Killzone's excellent reload animations. They don't add anything to the gameplay! GOD SONY!

Yeah, I think all the sideways shooting means is that the gun/hand model is tied to the orientation/position of the wand, thus twisting the wand would twist the gun on the screen. It's nothing special for game play, but it is a great added effect, meaning when you move your arm you'll see the character's arm move appropriately. I don't see why that would be a bad thing.

People also mentioned moving the remote forward to push obstacles over, and moving it back to reload. Thus, I assume the gun is tied to the remote position and if you move it back far enough it moves off screen to reload, and moving it forward will test intersections with the character's hand to push over objects. Perhaps you can wave your arm around to pistol whip as well if this is the case! was it mentioned??

This will feel more like playing a PC FPS (when it comes to aiming) than anything else. You'll be manipulating the revmote a lot more like manipulating a mouse than an arcade light gun.

exactly, how many people complain when FPS use a mouse???

 

[Timbuktu]

It's a trigger; it just isn't an analog trigger like the ones on the Dreamcast, Xbox and Xbox 360 controllers.

or Gamecube for that matter. I'm surprised they're not including that analogue triggers with the click in the Revmote.

 

[Zilch]

Please someone tell me how did you guys see the screenshots?

You're basically asking if we want to get banned, you know that right?

 

[Link]

Yeah, I think all the sideways shooting means is that the gun/hand model is tied to the orientation/position of the wand, thus twisting the wand would twist the gun on the screen. It's nothing special for game play, but it is a great added effect, meaning when you move your arm you'll see the character's arm move appropriately. I don't see why that would be a bad thing.

It'll matter when you have the sword equipped.

 

[SpiffyG]

Speevy that isn't what I'm saying.




Well I wouldn't normally, but I'm talking about choosing the lesser of two evils overall. My perfect controller would be the X360 with gyro functionality which you could move around slightly to use as an aiming device...

I agree that analog stick sensitivity will not be as precise as the revmote. However, it doesn't make analog stick aiming bad. With a smart developer it can be close. I'm suggesting the feel shooting a gun would be better with the X360 pad, because of the analog trigger and the rumble motion. I've never been a huge fan of FPS games on consoles until the X360. In fact, I've probably played more PC FPS games than almost any user on this side of Borys. The precision of the keyboard and mouse is great, but the actually feeling of firing a gun has always been lacking in a key/mouse setup. With the X360 pad you get fantastic precision, and while not as nice as the key/mouse setup, it is still excellent. It is the first console gamepad I would feel comfortable playing FPS games not named Halo or Halo 2. It is a big step up from the Xbox pad as well. Between the contoured nature of the X360 pad, and the analog triggers, and the rumble feature, there actually feels like there is some substance behind firing a gun in a fps with the pad.

Let me be clear one last time...

I agree that the Revmote will be more precise in aiming!

I just don't think that alone makes it a better controller for FPS games on consoles, because the X360 pad is far from bad.

Well wouldn't it feel like there is even more substance behind firing a gun in Red Steel if you were holding the Revmote like it was an actual gun?

 

[Chrono]

Please someone tell me how did you guys see the screenshots?

check your pm... maybe some one sent you a link or something... not me though, nope.

 

[Chris Remo]

You're exactly right. In a game that lets you use a simulated gun/aiming scope (or fishing pole, conductor's baton, etc.), no one will ever point it at the screen (or near the console itself).

I can just see the people operating their Revolution controllers from the area surrounding their lap.

Nobody said you CAN'T do that if you don't want, but the point is if you don't want to be sticking your arm out you don't have to.

 

[thetrin]

Please someone tell me how did you guys see the screenshots?

Uh...use your eyes?

 

[PkunkFury]

I'm suggesting the feel shooting a gun would be better with the X360 pad, because of the analog trigger and the rumble motion.

None of us have held one yet, but I'd bet the feeling of aiming with a one handed pointer that provides a rumble "kickback" will be just as good, if not more so, though I agree, a trigger like X360s would be nice on the remote. The revs appears to be digital. I think someone will release a gun attachment with a nice trigger down the line for the remote, but it should have bee built in.

It'll matter when you have the sword equipped.

Oh definitely, but I think for the gun it will be nice too

 

[neptunes]

Well wouldn't it feel like there is even more substance behind firing a gun in Red Steel if you were holding the Revmote like it was an actual gun?

if they added an analog trigger and the vibration strength is good, then yes.

 

[Mrbob]

It's already been stated that was added simply for immersion. You move your hand holding your weapon in real life, you move your hand holding your weapon in the game. That and some people will think it looks cool. Why you're harping on a neat little bonus is beyond me. It's like bitching about Killzone's excellent reload animations. They don't add anything to the gameplay! GOD SONY!

Sony? Pfft, MS! Get it right.

Using your control scheme, explain to me how this would work:

You want to lob a grenade over, lets say, a slot machine and just the slot machine- so you want to lob it in the air like 5 feet forward.

You want to lob a grenade over a series of slot machines across the room- so you want to lob it in the air 50 feet forward.

How do you accomplish this if you can only throw it long distances (as tapping the trigger causes an underhand roll)? Also, how do you differentiate how long or short you want to roll the grenade if you choose to go that route if you're only allowed to click the shoulder button?

It is a pressure sensitive analog trigger. Not a shoulder button. Not like the Z Axis button on the bottom of the revmote.

Well you've (obviously) never used the Rev controller, so making this claim at this point is pretty stupid (especially since the revmote DOES have rumble, DOES have a trigger button, and is more shaped like an f'n gun than the Xbox controller).

Indeed I have not. I'm using information readily available at the moment. But I'll probably buy this game when I get a Rev so I'll put it through its paces.

 

[Mike Works]

Mike Works, I think I'm the one missing something. I said I'm not a techy so I have no idea really.

Here I'll explain it to you, it's pretty simple (and I'm not trying to sound condescending, i was just confused as to what you were saying);

A pre-rendered background is like a picture. So imagine drawing a picture, putting it on the floor, then putting an army man on it's back and laying it on top of the picture, all the while you're viewing the picture standing up. So you can move the army man around (on his back, so it looks like he's standing up) against that picture. The army man can turn around, pivot, etc because he's in 3D, but the picture can't change perspective because it's only 2D. It's just a picture. If you were to lean to the left or change the perspective/angle of the piece of paper, it wouldn't work, the perspective would just get distorted.

Now imagine putting that army man in a doll house (heresy!). The doll house is a 3D environment- if you were to lean to the left or rotate the doll house, you'd see it in a 3D space, you could view the room the army man's in from any different angle.

That's the difference between 3D environments and pre-rendered backgrounds. Pre rendered backgrounds are basically just static pictures, often with a 3D character (and some 3D objects) moving around "on top of the picture". Thus a game like this would not work at all with pre-rendered backgrounds, since you could never change the perspective on the fly. Every single first person shooter basically has to be in 3D, since most pre-rendered backgrounds require a third person perspective so you can see your character move around on top of the picture (like Resident Evil or the playstation Final Fantasy games).

Does that explanation make sense?

 

[imastalker co.]

I agree that analog stick sensitivity will not be as precise as the revmote. However, it doesn't make analog stick aiming bad.

it does by comparison.

I just don't think that alone makes it a better controller for FPS games on consoles, because the X360 pad is far from bad.

now you're just coming off as shitting bricks.

 

[Chris Remo]

Speevy that isn't what I'm saying.




Well I wouldn't normally, but I'm talking about choosing the lesser of two evils overall. My perfect controller would be the X360 with gyro functionality which you could move around slightly to use as an aiming device...

I agree that analog stick sensitivity will not be as precise as the revmote. However, it doesn't make analog stick aiming bad. With a smart developer it can be close. I'm suggesting the feel shooting a gun would be better with the X360 pad, because of the analog trigger and the rumble motion. I've never been a huge fan of FPS games on consoles until the X360. In fact, I've probably played more PC FPS games than almost any user on this side of Borys. The precision of the keyboard and mouse is great, but the actually feeling of firing a gun has always been lacking in a key/mouse setup. With the X360 pad you get fantastic precision, and while not as nice as the key/mouse setup, it is still excellent. It is the first console gamepad I would feel comfortable playing FPS games not named Halo or Halo 2. It is a big step up from the Xbox pad as well. Between the contoured nature of the X360 pad, and the analog triggers, and the rumble feature, there actually feels like there is some substance behind firing a gun in a fps with the pad.

Let me be clear one last time...

I agree that the Revmote will be more precise in aiming!

I just don't think that alone makes it a better controller for FPS games on consoles, because the X360 pad is far from bad.

You keep mentioning rumble. Does Revolution not have that? I was pretty sure it does.

 

[empanada]

Well wouldn't it feel like there is even more substance behind firing a gun in Red Steel if you were holding the Revmote like it was an actual gun?

But what if you're now using a katana? It would be too much hassle taking off the "gun" attachment to do sword fights, then putting it back for gun fights.

Oh nevermind, you weren't talking about gun attachments. Continue.

 

[Matt]

if they added an analog trigger and the vibration strength is good, then yes.

But...why? The trigger on a real gun is "digital."

 

[Mrbob]

it does by comparison.


now you're just coming off as shitting bricks.

Yeah, with your vast knowledge of using the Xbox 360 pad you would know.

Oh and enjoy the Source back catalogue on Revolution that Valve will be bringing out.

 

[acidviper]

Please someone tell me how did you guys see the screenshots?

Its teh trap!!!!

 

[Mike Works]

Sony? Pfft, MS! Get it right.

Pretty sure Killzone is a Sony (published) game?

It is a pressure sensitive analog trigger. Not a shoulder button. Not like the Z Axis button on the bottom of the revmote.

Did you read what I said at all? Re-read what I was asking- as I was asking under the assumption that you were referring to a pressure sensitive analog trigger. Here, I'll bold the question to make it easier to read:

HOW ARE YOU TO DIFFERENTIATE BETWEEN HOW SHORT OR FAR YOU WANT TO ROLL A GRENADE IF THE CONTROL SCHEME ONLY ALLOWS YOU TO TAP THE PRESSURE SENSITIVE ANALOG TRIGGER?

(as holding it down executes an overhand throw)

 

[blackadde]

i am a little taken aback that people are actually arguing about which one 'feels more like you're firing the gun'. the only thing i care about is which one is more accurate and will give me a gameplay advantage vs. the other scheme. pads are sluggish (!), pointers are fast (!) and let you do instant 180s. end of story!

 

[neo2046]

del

 

[Mejilan]

Yeah, with your vast knowledge of using the Xbox 360 pad you would know.

Oh and enjoy the Source back catalogue on Revolution that Valve will be bringing out.

The 360 pad is comfortable and good (shitty as fuck d-pad aside for the moment), but like just about every other traditional console controller out there, it's crap for FPS gaming. Mouse and KB all the way. DS touchscreen makes for a great portable recreation of that. And if the revmote can do for consoles what the touschreen did for portables. Holy fucking shit.

 

[Chrono]

edit: nm...

 

[imastalker co.]

Yeah, with your vast knowledge of using the Xbox 360 pad you would know.

you're 100% right. how else would i know? when it comes to aiming, pointing > moving stick. although you already agree with this, so whatever. i don't get why you're trying to argue other wise.

Oh and enjoy the Source back catalogue on Revolution that Valve will be bringing out.

let's hope so. i would absolutely love to play my favorite fps (counter strike) with the new standard in controls for the genre.

 

[neo2046]

:lol :lol

please delete the pic
I forget that I cannot post this


edit: thanks :lol

 

[SpiffyG]

Here I'll explain it to you, it's pretty simple (and I'm not trying to sound condescending, i was just confused as to what you were saying);

A pre-rendered background is like a picture. So imagine drawing a picture, putting it on the floor, then putting an army man on it's back and laying it on top of the picture, all the while you're viewing the picture standing up. So you can move the army man around (on his back, so it looks like he's standing up) against that picture. The army man can turn around, pivot, etc because he's in 3D, but the picture can't change perspective because it's only 2D. It's just a picture. If you were to lean to the left or change the perspective/angle of the piece of paper, it wouldn't work, the perspective would just get distorted.

Now imagine putting that army man in a doll house (heresy!). The doll house is a 3D environment- if you were to lean to the left or rotate the doll house, you'd see it in a 3D space, you could view the room the army man's in from any different angle.

That's the difference between 3D environments and pre-rendered backgrounds. Pre rendered backgrounds are basically just static pictures, often with a 3D character (and some 3D objects) moving around "on top of the picture". Thus a game like this would not work at all with pre-rendered backgrounds, since you could never change the perspective on the fly. Every single first person shooter basically has to be in 3D, since most pre-rendered backgrounds require a third person perspective so you can see your character move around on top of the picture (like Resident Evil or the playstation Final Fantasy games).

Does that explanation make sense?

Yes, I get it. Thanks.

I think what he means is since he's "Xbox360's John Kerry", it would have been more effective to use a Xbox360 game example.

 

[Mrbob]

Pretty sure Killzone is a Sony (published) game?


Did you read what I said at all? Re-read what I was asking- as I was asking under the assumption that you were referring to a pressure sensitive analog trigger. Here, I'll bold the question to make it easier to read:

HOW ARE YOU TO DIFFERENTIATE BETWEEN HOW SHORT OR FAR YOU WANT TO ROLL A GRENADE IF THE CONTROL SCHEME ONLY ALLOWS YOU TO TAP THE PRESSURE SENSITIVE ANALOG TRIGGER?

(as holding it down executes an overhand throw)

You could have two meters if you want. One meter pops up when you lighlty hold the analog trigger down that lets you measure how far you want to roll your grenade. Another meter could pop up when you hold the trigger down, again allowing you to judge the distance of your grenade trhow.

you're 100% right. how else would i know? when it comes to aiming, pointing > moving stick. although you already agree with this, so whatever. i don't get why you're trying to argue other wise.

I'm not arguing that the pointer is not better. I'm saying the analog stick is not bad. At least the X360 one is not.

 

[Speevy]

Here's what's funny about this discussion.

Revolution buyers are disenchanted and/or daunted by traditional gameplay.

The Xbox 360 has a great controller, which combines what's been great about traditional game controllers over the years.

One does not negate the other. And if you think it does, you're going to be in for a shock as next generation unfolds.

 

[Chrono]

such an awesome photoshop gone to waste... :lol


neo, going from the photoshop i'm guessing this is being viewed as good news for rev at 2ch?

 

[etiolate]

how do I shot revmote

 

[GhaleonEB]

The idea of waving my arms around while playing videogames remains deeply unappealing to me. Coupled with the fact that I can't due to carpel tunnel....

The Revolution more than any other system will have to be tried to be appreciated. It had better deliver. I don't think it will.

 

[Krowley]

You could have two meters if you want. One meter pops up when you lighlty hold the analog trigger down that lets you measure how far you want to roll your grenade. Another meter could pop up when you hold the trigger down, again allowing you to judge the distance of your grenade trhow.

but neither one of those is as direct as the rev...

imagine your looking in one direction and you toss a grenade in the other direction, or toss it over your back to get somebody behind you, or set it down on something and then run away... I'm not saying that's how it works in this game, but with the revmote, it is distinctly possible.

 

[Trident]

You could have two meters if you want. One meter pops up when you lighlty hold the analog trigger down that lets you measure how far you want to roll your grenade. Another meter could pop up when you hold the trigger down, again allowing you to judge the distance of your grenade trhow.



I'm not arguing that the pointer is not better. I'm saying the analog stick is not bad. At least the X360 one is not.

Yes, but rolling the grenade with your arm using the remote is a gimmick. Lord knows it's easier and more intuitive to use varying meters.

 

[imastalker co.]

The idea of waving my arms around while playing videogames remains deeply unappealing to me.

so don't wave your arms around when playing.

anyways, yes, dual sticks works for fps, but who gives a shit, there's better methods out there.