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#GamerGate thread 2: it's about feminism in games journalism

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stupei

Member
so its no longer about that female dev who allegedly had sex?

its about misogyny now? I haven't been keeping track.....Destiny

It's always been about misogyny and what the heroes of #GG call "feminist bullies," they've just broadened their targets to include anything with the slightest hint of social progressivism.

For example, one common complaint now is about the Polygon review for Bayonetta 2 mentioning that the reviewer disliked the sexualization of the character and found it less fun to play because of it. This is a "politicized" and therefor "unethical" review.

Reviews should be about the game, but not its content. Tell us what you think, but don't tell us your opinions... somehow.

Also Gone Home isn't really a video game and people who claim to have enjoyed it are part of a PC conspiracy to indoctrinate everyone else? They also say "cultural marxism" a lot.

wait wait wait....that Adam Baldwin? wtf is he doing?!!!

In between tweets about how there's no hard evidence Obama doesn't want to spread Ebola (no, but really), he talks a lot about #Gamergate and how it's such a righteous cause for good.
 

L Thammy

Member
I believe that Gamergate's origins stretch back beyond Zoe Quinn. However, I don't think it has anything to do with Doritogate or journalistic ethics. We saw this with the Shadows of Mordor thing, didn't we? Most of the Gamergate tweets regarding Mordor were #kissnotkill or "just picked up shadows of mordor". They didn't give a shit about ethics then, they don't now. They never did.

The origins of Gamergate is not a history of distrust that gaming journalists have built, though that does give them to the ability to legitimize their movement. The actual driving origin is a resistance to change; people seeing that the culture they've engrossed themselves in is now about more than just themselves, and they want to go back. Again, Gamergate is regression.
 

aeolist

Banned
What's the "moderate GGer" stance on people like Adam Baldwin?

there is no such animal, people who think of themselves as moderate gg supporters have no problem with extremist nutjobs like baldwin and yiannopoulos

at the very most they condemn some of their more overtly hateful language but still claim that they have a point
 

GamerJM

Banned
What's the "moderate GGer" stance on people like Adam Baldwin?

They seem to range from "He's not actually a GamerGate guy even though he basically started the whole thing," to "I disagree with him but I still think he has the right to say what he does under the GamerGate tag".
 

Bold One

Member
I'm going to go away for a while and come back when I have accrued enough information, this situation looks from a distance like a mine-field and it seems the wrong combinations of a few words can lead to being labelled by folks on both either side.


so thanks to those who took the time to answer my initial query
 

kirblar

Member
I believe that Gamergate's origins stretch back beyond Zoe Quinn. However, I don't think it has anything to do with Doritogate or journalistic ethics. We saw this with the Shadows of Mordor thing, didn't we? Most of the Gamergate tweets regarding Mordor were #kissnotkill or "just picked up shadows of mordor". They didn't give a shit about ethics then, they don't now. They never did.

The origins of Gamergate is not a history of distrust that gaming journalists have built, though that does give them to the ability to legitimize their movement. The actual driving origin is a resistance to change; people seeing that the culture they've engrossed themselves in is now about more than just themselves, and they want to go back. Again, Gamergate is regression.
Had you seen the Deadspin article on it? http://deadspin.com/the-future-of-the-culture-wars-is-here-and-its-gamerga-1646145844 Goes into everything you've said- this existed before the Quinn/Ex blowup gave them an excuse, and is really a right-wing reactionary movement at it's core under a different skin.
 
I believe that Gamergate's origins stretch back beyond Zoe Quinn. However, I don't think it has anything to do with Doritogate or journalistic ethics. We saw this with the Shadows of Mordor thing, didn't we? Most of the Gamergate tweets regarding Mordor were #kissnotkill or "just picked up shadows of mordor". They didn't give a shit about ethics then, they don't now. They never did.

The origins of Gamergate is not a history of distrust that gaming journalists have built, though that does give them to the ability to legitimize their movement. The actual driving origin is a resistance to change; people seeing that the culture they've engrossed themselves in is now about more than just themselves, and they want to go back. Again, Gamergate is regression.

Yup, GamerGate has absolutely positively not one iota to due with ethics or journalism or any of that. Why have I not seen one GG person bring up the Microsoft-Youtubers fiasco from December? A company paying people to lie about how awesome their product was, and not even journalists! These were youtubers that were supposed to be the ones fighting back against the tyranny of "game journalism"
 
there is no such animal, people who think of themselves as moderate gg supporters have no problem with extremist nutjobs like baldwin and yiannopoulos

at the very most they condemn some of their more overtly hateful language but still claim that they have a point

Try to have a polite, civil conversation about people in GG condemning the death threats but still being a part of GG.

Watch how fast the other person calls you the fucking devil.
 
While all of what you said has weight to it from your point of view, it seems better to speak of those things of themselves. The message from this movement - whether it's the majority or a vocal minority is honestly irrelevant - has poisoned any basis for such arguments, even if some have sincerely supported the movement and prodding into such topics.
This is absolutely not true. The feelings of distrust have been building for years and simply labelling a group with words like "sexist" or "haters" won't even manage to destroy the group, let alone address the underlying feelings.

Let's step back from #gamersgate. There is a widespread, general feeling among a lot of gamers that journalists cannot be trusted. We've had more than enough instances of why someone might feel this way so let's not get into it. For one reason or another, people feel justified in their distrust of journalists.

Since journalists make money based on readership, the hammer had to fall sometime in the same way that it fell for cable subscriptions and newspapers and magazines and pretty much every other form of informative media: you have to win your readers' trust or you'll go out of business.

Gaming journalists as a whole really weren't doing anything to make that happen. Unfortunately for the people caught in the abusive crossfire, this explosion was waiting to happen but the lack of responsiveness by journalists over the years allowed this to also hone that wonderful edge of bigotry and hate.

I'm sure such people do exist and are really about this for ethics and the pervasive nepotism we see with games media and publishers, but the reality is any arguments of that are undermined by the public image of this movement, which is one rooted in attacking women. I am not saying the public image is myth, but the reality is there are those are behind such a movement and seem to be pretty hellbent on pressing down the words of others.
The public image of most movements is usually cast in a dark light by "the establishment". I'm not even rooting for #gamersgate here. I'm pointing out some very basic tennets of viva la revolution. All of this discussion about how awful and hypocritical #gamersgate is means nothing. NOTHING.

If you think the conversation is "what is incorrect about #gamersgate?" then you are doing it very, very wrong. The conversation should be "how do we de-claw #gamersgate effectively?" and so far all of the measures have failed hilariously while #gamersgate continues to threaten and make moves.

But sure.

Let's talk about what's wrong with #gamersgate and why it's still toxic to be associated with the hashtag.


One does not need a movement to raise these issues
Clearly we do. It is why these sort of grassroot movements come to fruition and why "astroturf" movements end up crashing and burning.

, and one really does not need to do so with a movement that has a very major reception to be about everything but such issues. We didn't need a GamerGate for the Doritogate nonsense that happened a year or so ago.
It is worth considering the possibility that - because the outcries against Doritogate when largely unheard - it made it all the more necessary for a more vocal and vitriolic movement now. And when I say "more necessary", what I mean is "inevitable".
 

marrec

Banned
Try to have a polite, civil conversation about people in GG condemning the death threats but still being a part of GG.

Watch how fast the other person calls you the fucking devil.
Honestly I haven't found too many uncivil voices. 90% of the people I've had long conversations with seem like intelligent enough guys/gals but cannot seems to accept the idea that social progressivism in games is a natural evolution of the medium and claim weird conspiracies.
 

stupei

Member
I believe that Gamergate's origins stretch back beyond Zoe Quinn. However, I don't think it has anything to do with Doritogate or journalistic ethics. We saw this with the Shadows of Mordor thing, didn't we? Most of the Gamergate tweets regarding Mordor were #kissnotkill or "just picked up shadows of mordor". They didn't give a shit about ethics then, they don't now. They never did.

The origins of Gamergate is not a history of distrust that gaming journalists have built, though that does give them to the ability to legitimize their movement. The actual driving origin is a resistance to change; people seeing that the culture they've engrossed themselves in is now about more than just themselves, and they want to go back. Again, Gamergate is regression.

They distrust people like Patrick Klepek, who has actually broken news many times, and Jim Sterling who has spoken openly and often about ethics in games journalism. They distrust people like Jenn Frank.

Their "distrust" is based on what they perceive as politics while most reasonable people would say that their distrust in video game journalism is in the possibility of it functioning as essentially a branch of the PR department. But given the general #GG reaction to the Polygon Bayonetta 2 review -- and the non-reaction to the Shadow of Mordor shadiness -- suggests that what they want most is for game journalists to get them hyped or to do a Digital Foundry style tech breakdown, and nothing more.
 
Can anyone find me a tweet that raises an ethical concern about games journalism from today? I really am trying here

It is worth considering the possibility that - because the outcries against Doritogate when largely unheard - it made it all the more necessary for a more vocal and vitriolic movement now. And when I say "more necessary", what I mean is "inevitable".

Sorry, what? because people didn't care enough about Doritogate it was inevitable that women would be doxxed, sent death threats, and forced out of their homes?
 

aeolist

Banned
This is absolutely not true. The feelings of distrust have been building for years and simply labelling a group with words like "sexist" or "haters" won't even manage to destroy the group, let alone address the underlying feelings.

Let's step back from #gamersgate. There is a widespread, general feeling among a lot of gamers that journalists cannot be trusted. We've had more than enough instances of why someone might feel this way so let's not get into it. For one reason or another, people feel justified in their distrust of journalists.

Since journalists make money based on readership, the hammer had to fall sometime in the same way that it fell for cable subscriptions and newspapers and magazines and pretty much every other form of informative media: you have to win your readers' trust or you'll go out of business.

Gaming journalists as a whole really weren't doing anything to make that happen. Unfortunately for the people caught in the abusive crossfire, this explosion was waiting to happen but the lack of responsiveness by journalists over the years allowed this to also hone that wonderful edge of bigotry and hate.
i don't see what this has to do with the attacks against women who don't work for video game web sites. if you're mad about polygon giving anita sarkeesian coverage, the correct response is not to attack anita sarkeesian. it's not crossfire when this happens either, it's the entire point of this "movement". game journalism is a cover story.

The public image of most movements is usually cast in a dark light by "the establishment". I'm not even rooting for #gamersgate here. I'm pointing out some very basic tennets of viva la revolution. All of this discussion about how awful and hypocritical #gamersgate is means nothing. NOTHING.

If you think the conversation is "what is incorrect about #gamersgate?" then you are doing it very, very wrong. The conversation should be "how do we de-claw #gamersgate effectively?" and so far all of the measures have failed hilariously while #gamersgate continues to threaten and make moves.

But sure.

Let's talk about what's wrong with #gamersgate and why it's still toxic to be associated with the hashtag.
i think overall it's been effective at marginalizing the radicals involved, the real problem is that marginalized radicals can have outsized effects on everyone else. in the past few weeks we've seen lots of people moving away from gg.

in any case if you have any suggestions as to how we might defang this particular hate group that don't involve giving them anything they want i'm sure we'll be all ears.

Clearly we do. It is why these sort of grassroot movements come to fruition and why "astroturf" movements end up crashing and burning.
this is an outright lie. the tea party in america (for example) has been an astroturf movement from day 1 and it has had an enormous impact on us politics.

It is worth considering the possibility that - because the outcries against Doritogate when largely unheard - it made it all the more necessary for a more vocal and vitriolic movement now. And when I say "more necessary", what I mean is "inevitable".
and again, all this might mean something if changing game coverage were really the point of all this. they already have the journalism they want, this is about dissenting minority voices being silenced.
 

Riposte

Member
The simple answer to that Gaider remark is that most YT video creators with problematic criticism aren't being positioned as experts on the subject who get to consult developers on how they should write their stories. Sarkeesian is. For some people, that's a concern.

It's like choosing to criticize someone on a Federal Board of Education vs some person going around town with fliers talking about school. Nobody really cares about the kooks going around, but someone on the BoE is in a position of power, so naturally more critical attention is paid to them.

Sarkeesian's in a position of huge influence, ergo, Sarkeesian warrants more attention.

There's much better defense of her than Gaider provides.

Good point. I wish the position Sarkeesian owns was more contested, especially for some of the things she had said in the past and has said outside of her trope videos. Unfortunately, the effect of GamerGate is making the conversation more polarized.

I do agree with his point that it's up to developers to make their own opinions. In that sense, no matter how flawed the Tropes videos are, they ultimately just serve the role of introducing more questions about design choices (at least, that's how I wish to see it). I still think it is worth challenging them though, because there is still the larger debate of criticism at hand.

For that matter, if fans in large amounts want to express how much they disagree with a criticism (like on a trope or character design) and are afraid of its effects on the creative process, why not instead point their voices at the developer rather than the critic? Make it clear that people disagree (ideally including why), so it contributes to how they question their designs.
 
Honestly, I think the state of games journalism has very, very little to do with why GamerGate exists. Because it's not about games journalism at all, it's a campaign of harassment against women in gaming.
#gamergate don't give a shit about what you think. They thing that they are all about those things. And that's all that matters to them and it is why the movement will continue to have traction until that assumption is dismantled.

Forum posts and the occasional article about "this is why #gamersgate are hypocrites" won't do the trick. It really doesn't help that at the onset of all this some game journalists decided to start decrying the "gamer" label. Yeah. Good job there. I can imagine quite a few people ran into the open, loving arms of #gamersgate on that sticking point alone.

People blew up over Anita Sarkeesian, and people blew up over the "Quinnspiracy" thing before it transformed into GamerGate. So if there was no disdain between journalists and readers, Quinnspiracy/GamerGate would still be a thing. Only difference would be they wouldn't be trying to use games journalism as a shield.
BRB let's go talk Europe out of the Crusades. Because you know ... recapturing Holy Land got nothing to do with Jesus. And if you point out it has nothing to do with it, the movement goes away! You should diffuse angry mobs more often!
 

L Thammy

Member
BRB let's go talk Europe out of the Crusades. Because you know ... recapturing Holy Land got nothing to do with Jesus. And if you point out it has nothing to do with it, the movement goes away! You should diffuse angry mobs more often!

Sorry for going off on a tangent, but the crusades were about much more than recapturing the Holy Land. They were partially about defending themselves against Muslim raiders, partially about maintaining the warrior lifestyle developed by Germanic pagans in a Christianized context. And to some extent, it did diffuse with diplomacy. The Knights Templar, for instance, largely laid down their arms in favour of engaging in friendly commerce with the Muslims.

On topic. My post above was aimed at you; I'm curious as to your thoughts.
 

aasoncott

Member
Just to clear something up: Depression Quest was always free. She was really upfront before it came out that she felt weird charging for something that might help people. That getting it into the right hands and possibly helping someone in need--someone who might not have paid for it--was more important than money. If people wanted to "pay", she accepted donations, with a good portion going to charity. To help more people.

The monster.
 

Xscapist

Member
dg3dc.jpg
 

CurlyW

Member
Just to clear something up: Depression Quest was always free. She was really upfront before it came out that she felt weird charging for something that might help people. That getting it into the right hands and possibly helping someone in need--someone who might not have paid for it--was more important than money. If people wanted to "pay", she accepted donations, with a good portion going to charity. To help more people.

The monster.

I told a GGer this on Twitter the other day. They claimed that Quinn used Robin Williams' death to sell her game. I pointed out what you just said.

I didn't look for a reply, but the long string of notifications I then got tells me that they're not appreciative of facts and reason.
 

Nanashrew

Banned
all that is needed to see how disgusting and uninformed the GG movement are about the actual issues they claim to "discuss" is to take 15 minutes or less and check the timeline of https://twitter.com/gamergaterstxt

Looking in that I see familiar names and old friends.

--

I think this post from Glenn Fleishman may have gotten looked over last thread since it was near its end. http://glog.glennf.com/blog/2014/10/24/this-post-is-about-ethics-in-journalism

It talks about ethics, journalist guidlines, relationships and much more. In short GamerGate isn't about ethics.
 

zeldablue

Member
you jest? that article doesn't have much to do with gamergate

Hmm, well some are really happy with the article and others are angry. IGN has a lot of good things to say about both sides in terms of how to improve things.

Especially:

Don’t assume a motivation behind another person’s actions.
Don’t attack a person’s character just because they disagree with you.
Don’t intimidate a person just because their ideas are challenging.
Don’t threaten anyone with violence.
And finally, don’t use one person’s violation of any of these rules to justify your own.
 
Might as well get this out of the way:
There probably is a lot more "ethics breaches" uncovered by Gamergate, people just stopped paying attention to their inane bullshit. I sure as hell tuned out a long time ago.

ctrl+f digra
Yeah that's not in there. Nor is Silverstring. Of the crazy nonsense I've seen Gamergate discover, all the wacky conspiracies related to that shit might be the most absurd. They found a way to tie it to DARPA, so it's ripe with potential for MGS jokes.
 

Pepboy

Member
While all of what you said has weight to it from your point of view, it seems better to speak of those things of themselves. The message from this movement - whether it's the majority or a vocal minority is honestly irrelevant - has poisoned any basis for such arguments, even if some have sincerely supported the movement and prodding into such topics. I'm sure such people do exist and are really about this for ethics and the pervasive nepotism we see with games media and publishers, but the reality is any arguments of that are undermined by the public image of this movement, which is one rooted in attacking women. I am not saying the public image is myth, but the reality is there are those are behind such a movement and seem to be pretty hellbent on pressing down the words of others and that has taken over any other argument one can make of the movement.

One does not need a movement to raise these issues, and one really does not need to do so with a movement that has a very major reception to be about everything but such issues. We didn't need a GamerGate for the Doritogate nonsense that happened a year or so ago.

A few weeks ago, Shawn Elliot asked me what I thought of GamerGate on NeoGAF. At the time, I only had a vague conception that it was about Zoe Quinn presumably sleeping for coverage, a notion that would be laughable if it didn't impact her life so negatively.

So, I continued to write GamerGate off, until I saw this article:

https://archive.today/FNxNI

Which I felt addressed the difficulty both sides have in explaining what they are about. There certainly seems to be a very dangerous element of GamerGate. But it seems GamerGate's prominent members have also been given death threats, doxxed, etc. It's claimed to be misogynistic (and no doubt some are), but I can't deny they raised a lot of money for what appears to be a game development platform for women. So I have a hard time wrapping my head around what I believe GamerGate actually is (and not just what people tell me).

Then again, it's probably easier for GamerGate to seem reasonable to me because I wouldn't touch 4chan with a 10 foot pool. But to your point, I don't consider it completely poisoned despite it's toxic beginnings, though I'll be surprised if it makes lasting changes given it's history.

Personally, I would much prefer a movement to be centered about GaymerX and it's philosophy. The idea that everyone games, to promote inclusion by extending and critiquing games without the need to vilify particular games / genres / tropes.
 
Hmm, well some are really happy with the article and others are angry. IGN has a lot of good things to say about both sides in terms of how to improve things.

Especially:
Don’t assume a motivation behind another person’s actions.
Don’t attack a person’s character just because they disagree with you.
Don’t intimidate a person just because their ideas are challenging.
Don’t threaten anyone with violence.
And finally, don’t use one person’s violation of any of these rules to justify your own.

All good suggestions,if someone is angry about the article their probably projecting too much into it (or are idiots)
 

Kazerei

Banned
#gamergate don't give a shit about what you think. They thing that they are all about those things. And that's all that matters to them and it is why the movement will continue to have traction until that assumption is dismantled.

I doubt it. That assumption could disappear and there would still be assholes whining about women in gaming, doxxing and threatening people over it, which is what GamerGate is actually about. They could stop pretending to be about games journalism and they would still be active, doing what they do now, because their activities have very, very little to do with games journalism.

Forum posts and the occasional article about "this is why #gamersgate are hypocrites" won't do the trick. It really doesn't help that at the onset of all this some game journalists decided to start decrying the "gamer" label. Yeah. Good job there. I can imagine quite a few people ran into the open, loving arms of #gamersgate on that sticking point alone.


BRB let's go talk Europe out of the Crusades. Because you know ... recapturing Holy Land got nothing to do with Jesus. And if you point out it has nothing to do with it, the movement goes away! You should diffuse angry mobs more often!

The state of games journalism has nothing to do with the harassment of women. Seriously.
 

Foffy

Banned
This is absolutely not true. The feelings of distrust have been building for years and simply labelling a group with words like "sexist" or "haters" won't even manage to destroy the group, let alone address the underlying feelings.

Let's step back from #gamersgate. There is a widespread, general feeling among a lot of gamers that journalists cannot be trusted. We've had more than enough instances of why someone might feel this way so let's not get into it. For one reason or another, people feel justified in their distrust of journalists.

Since journalists make money based on readership, the hammer had to fall sometime in the same way that it fell for cable subscriptions and newspapers and magazines and pretty much every other form of informative media: you have to win your readers' trust or you'll go out of business.

Gaming journalists as a whole really weren't doing anything to make that happen. Unfortunately for the people caught in the abusive crossfire, this explosion was waiting to happen but the lack of responsiveness by journalists over the years allowed this to also hone that wonderful edge of bigotry and hate.

I feel you have misconstrued what I was inferring when I said it had no basis. It has no basis in the ethos of GamerGate, for the image of GamerGate has been tainted and presented as a hate campaign. Some may be in support of it for the issues you raise, but the movement we have here make addressing those issues insoluble, for the problem of harassment and an attack on women have become the more vocal topics. You are better off bringing up such criticisms externally, away from such a movement, despite how some who are for this sort of stuff are all about that. It is particularly apparent when a site like NeoGAF - a site that has called out journalistic shit like this in the past - seems venomously against this sort of movement. It's because calling that out seems to be far outweighed from death threats, personal information being posted on the internet, and the general game of mudslinging going about. All it forces is a shit eating contest in the end, similar to modern American politics; which bowl of doodoo do you want to slurp between your teeth?

Very plainly, if you use GamerGate and talk about these ethical problems, one is now a part of a movement that one can infer such problems as trying to play "damage control", or to spin something, regardless of how sincere one is to such issues. That's all I'm saying, and that seems to be the consensus to those who see how GamerGate's reception has turned into one of malice and not critical inquiry. The image of such a movement has already painted people involved, to make an archetype. I have seen people bring up ethical issues, and in fact I was for this movement when it seemed that was a point raised by some. The problem here is that such points are no longer the most vocal ones, and trying to make them such points is like trying to get a sinking ship to float. It became more and more that public discourse was less on these issues and more on typical internet shittery with death threats and that sort of game which has all but killed any momentum in people taking such points seriously, especially in this sort of movement.

The public image of most movements is usually cast in a dark light by "the establishment". I'm not even rooting for #gamersgate here. I'm pointing out some very basic tennets of viva la revolution. All of this discussion about how awful and hypocritical #gamersgate is means nothing. NOTHING.

If you think the conversation is "what is incorrect about #gamersgate?" then you are doing it very, very wrong. The conversation should be "how do we de-claw #gamersgate effectively?" and so far all of the measures have failed hilariously while #gamersgate continues to threaten and make moves.

But sure.

Let's talk about what's wrong with #gamersgate and why it's still toxic to be associated with the hashtag.

It means a lot as people tend to label and classify things rather hastily in their minds. If people think it's awful, they'll very plainly not want anything to do with it, regardless if it's one person shitting a bed or a poor misinterpretation. The issue I find with threatening is the most apparent examples of this are to cancel public events with death threats and less on pulling advertising. The incident with that Gawker guy talking about bringing back bullying to nerds and getting shat on by the internet was a noble effort, but that almost seems like collateral and less of a planned goal, as he was shitflinging in a shit pit.


Clearly we do. It is why these sort of grassroot movements come to fruition and why "astroturf" movements end up crashing and burning.

Grassroot movements are fine, but the problem is they must keep their message on point and progress to more spread out ideas with said message. Instead, public reception to this has been less of "let's call out the shady shit of journalism" and more of "let's throw shit at people we don't like". GamerGate's image has been more about Anita being a control freak with her message and less of shit like GMAs and clear nepotism between press and publishers, the latter who host the event.

It is worth considering the possibility that - because the outcries against Doritogate when largely unheard - it made it all the more necessary for a more vocal and vitriolic movement now. And when I say "more necessary", what I mean is "inevitable".

I'm not sure if that's totally true. If anything, Doritogate has only made me choose to ignore most journalistic inquiries in such a medium because I think this sort of industry has unfathomably low standards. People should perhaps get into the model of assuming culture - in this case, the journalistic culture of video games - is fundamentally not your friend. They're in this typically for money, clicks, and potential jobs at companies they write about. If one can validate their own opinions and not rely on the timed mouthpieces giving out details on products, on how one should "believe the hype", one has a better sense of self-awareness to things. I would argue our problem is putting the weight and worth in other people who write about games and less upon ourselves.

Of course, that doesn't get rid of shady shit like Gerstmanngate and that sort of jazz, but that's not just an issue with games, but an issue with rampant market awareness, controlling a message, and our pervasive chase for money that our consumer capitalist culture has overly fetishized. We're in an age where critically analyzing if an iPhone 6 can bend can get you blacklisted, and while that's not games, imagine how bad it gets in such a place where one doesn't want to be bitten by the person keeping them around. It then becomes more apparent that one shouldn't be calling out games journalism, but this capitalistic model we have that goes the whole way, from advertisement, to PR, to magazines and news throughout many, many, many industries.
 

Nanashrew

Banned
Hmm, well some are really happy with the article and others are angry. IGN has a lot of good things to say about both sides in terms of how to improve things.

Especially:

I think a lot of people's anger stems from their own moderation and how bad they are. I got pointed out that they have been doing stuff about that, but I'm not really angry. I just felt it was pretty empty and didn't do enough. It felt like they tried to remain neutral after all that had happened.
 

Ayt

Banned
A few weeks ago, Shawn Elliot asked me what I thought of GamerGate on NeoGAF. At the time, I only had a vague conception that it was about Zoe Quinn presumably sleeping for coverage, a notion that would be laughable if it didn't impact her life so negatively.

So, I continued to write GamerGate off, until I saw this article:

https://archive.today/FNxNI

Which I felt addressed the difficulty both sides have in explaining what they are about. There certainly seems to be a very dangerous element of GamerGate. But it seems GamerGate's prominent members have also been given death threats, doxxed, etc. It's claimed to be misogynistic (and no doubt some are), but I can't deny they raised a lot of money for what appears to be a game development platform for women. So I have a hard time wrapping my head around what I believe GamerGate actually is (and not just what people tell me).

Then again, it's probably easier for GamerGate to seem reasonable to me because I wouldn't touch 4chan with a 10 foot pool. But to your point, I don't consider it completely poisoned despite it's toxic beginnings, though I'll be surprised if it makes lasting changes given it's history.

Personally, I would much prefer a movement to be centered about GaymerX and it's philosophy. The idea that everyone games, to promote inclusion by extending and critiquing games without the need to vilify particular games / genres / tropes.

And that article, which paints gamergate in a very friendly light, is archived because they doxxed the author so he took it down.
 
You missed where I said



This is basic, basic shit, people. We're talking "go read True Believer from the '50s because a lot of you clearly don't get it" sort of stuff. I'm not trying to give credence for #gamergate's actions or even their philosophy on the matter. I am simply trying to point out that these things are out there and #gamersgate has teeth because its supporters believe they are true. It's not logical, but it doesn't have to be.

It isn't about "Oh, #gamersgate said they are about ethics, but look at THIS ahaha! Laid my trap card. hashtag gamersgatedismantled". That hasn't worked, won't work, and will never work. If it did, Christianity would've died out after about 75 years. So would've Islam. Most religions. Most political movements and social movements too.

Yet.

The vast majority of those wishing to stop #gamersgate are being about as naive as a counter-movement can be. "Hey! If we start a different hashtag, badmouth them on forums, and ... stuff, maybe it'll go away!"

Meanwhile, #gamersgate is getting advertising pulled from websites, getting events cancelled (like Anita's recent university visit), doxxing, and making endless threats. Great job, anti-GGers! Slacktivism at its finest. What has actually been accomplished to slow down #gamersgate since it started ago? Mind you, it is the main talking point of anti-GGers that . If the #gamersgate message, behavior, and "true motive" has been the same for so long, how incompetent can people be, since nothing has really slowed it down at all.

That's why I advocate for journalists taking a head-on approach and addressing the years of underlying distrust that gives #gamersgate its teeth. It will be messy. But shouting "gamersgate is really bad and sexist" is going to do nothing, literally nothing.



I agree the movement to counter pro-GGers is weak but the problem is people against GG are literally everyone who isn't pro-GG (that or they don't know about the situation). There really isn't a middle ground here (MAYBE the people who actually care about ethics in game journalism... but GG isn't about ethics in game journalism).

The Pro-GG group is organized... everyone else is... like literally the entire world. To be fair when CNN, MSNBC, and pretty much every gaming outlet go "GG is a hate group" it definitely has an impact.
 
Can anyone find me a tweet that raises an ethical concern about games journalism from today? I really am trying here
You're missing the point. It is completely flying over your head, and I'm not trying to mock you or poke fun. If you truly think #gamersgate is bad, you are wasting your time. There's no point in these discussions about how hypocritical gamers gate is. None. The last several months have been spent with the exact same arguments and the exact same observations. The #gamersgate behavior continues.

Instead of asking yourself "in what way is #gamersgate incorrect and hypocritical?" you should be asking "what is the best method to stop #gamersgate? clearly our methods have not worked so far"

Sorry, what? because people didn't care enough about Doritogate it was inevitable that women would be doxxed, sent death threats, and forced out of their homes?
The outcry against Doritogate didn't result in much change - if any - within gaming journalism. That is what I am saying. I am not saying journalists are responsible for threats and doxxing. I am saying because journalists have ignored these concerns for years, this time it came back with much bigger teeth, which was inevitable. It is very sad that the "teeth" had to be hate and sexism, but the event was incoming, sooner or later.

i don't see what this has to do with the attacks against women who don't work for video game web sites. if you're mad about polygon giving anita sarkeesian coverage, the correct response is not to attack anita sarkeesian. it's not crossfire when this happens either, it's the entire point of this "movement". game journalism is a cover story.
It is my observation that the "sexist" side of #gamersgate has a fraction of the populous of the entire movement. I don't want to get into a discussion of "why would you associate with such a toxic hashtag" and "associating with the group means you approve of the actions" etc. I'm pointing out that according to their own words, not everyone who decides to associate with #gamersgate also approved of the hate. So you have this very radical margin that is built upon a foundation of ... what? It's the distrust of journalism, ethics in the game industry, perceived lies by "powers that be". Whatever. It's a movement. It doesn't need a unified message. The point is that the underlying foundation - the foundation that contains the most people and continues to draw in more people - is not based on sexism.

This has been argued against many times before. "How can you say that? of COURSE it is based on sexism. Look at these actions! Look at all these instances of hate!". No. We are talking about two different kinds of foundations. The person who says the above is talking about an ideological foundation (lol good luck fighting an ideology). What I am describing is a demographical foundation i.e the large foundation of participants who give this whole movement traction based on numbers alone.

And that foundation is clinging to #gamersgate because of the issues of corruption, ethics in journalism, the articles badmouthing gamers, etc.

i think overall it's been effective at marginalizing the radicals involved, the real problem is that marginalized radicals can have outsized effects on everyone else. in the past few weeks we've seen lots of people moving away from gg.

in any case if you have any suggestions as to how we might defang this particular hate group that don't involve giving them anything they want i'm sure we'll be all ears.
[/quote]
The first step would be for game journalists to shine a light on the issues being clung to and begin winning back the trust of their customers. It's a long road. But sitting around and pointing out "look how hypocritical those #gamersgaters are" will do nothing.

this is an outright lie. the tea party in america (for example) has been an astroturf movement from day 1 and it has had an enormous impact on us politics.
A lot of the people who follow the Tea Party believe very strongly about the issues. It is why the movement still exists. You are right though and I used a bad example. My point was that movements can only be sustained if the people within those movements believe what the movement stands for. I suppose it doesn't really matter if its grassroots or astroturfing.

and again, all this might mean something if changing game coverage were really the point of all this. they already have the journalism they want, this is about dissenting minority voices being silenced.
It has nothing to do with "what is the point of all this?". It has everything to do with "despite all our best efforts, why does #gamersgate still have teeth?"

Hmm. Let's think.

Sexism? Maybe. It's clear that some participants of GG have very strong and very hateful opinions on this.

But ... wait. There are a ton of people who insist "it's not about hating women". Hmmm. What are they clamoring for?

Ethics. Honesty. A cleaning out of corruption. It's a number of things but the feelings of distrust are there. It doesn't matter if we systematically disprove their stance on a friggin forum. What matters is that the vast majority of #gamersgate supporters find these issues to be important.

Lemme repeat: the vast majority of #gamersgate supporters find these issues to be important.

Address issues = the vast majority of #gamersgate supporters are sated. Vast majority of supporters are sated = the radicals have no foundation to stand on. This is incredibly simple, but it requires journalists and the community at large to step down from the ivory tower and actually dig into this muck. I'm not talking about Quinnspiracy or whatever. I'm talking about tackling these feelings of distrust and apathy head-on and especially for journalists to start winning back their readers instead of telling them what to think.
 
BRB let's go talk Europe out of the Crusades. Because you know ... recapturing Holy Land got nothing to do with Jesus. And if you point out it has nothing to do with it, the movement goes away! You should diffuse angry mobs more often!
The problem is you keep acting like it's On Anybody to "diffuse" the angry mob that is GamerGate. It isn't, and it shouldn't be. More importantly, though, it can't be, because GamerGate didn't start with "Gamers Are Over" and the QuinnSpiracy, and it didn't start with ME3/DmC, and it didn't start with Gerstmann or Florence.

The seeds of GamerGate, what it is that makes these people DEMAND to have a woman's sex life commented on by a gaming blog, were planted with these people getting laughed at by too many cheerleaders, shoved by jocks into too many lockers, and being in the presence of too many vitriolic political conversations by conservative family members at the dinner table. Go to any predominantly pro-#GG forum and you'll see discussions about "cultural marxism", and you'll see "normie" and "normalfag" used as a derogatory, a reference back to the non-nerds that ignored/tormented them. References to "SJWs" will make up the core bulk of their discussion.

This is not about ethics in game journalism, and Kotaku and Gamasutra coming out and addressing every single issue brought up by #GG, no matter how ridiculuous, isn't going to stop anybody from waving the #GamerGate banner. The only way anybody could ever make #GG diffuse, other than just letting them peter themselves out over time, is by going back in time and changing the events that made these people the way they are.
 

zeldablue

Member
I think a lot of people's anger stems from their own moderation and how bad they are. I got pointed out that they have been doing stuff about that, but I'm not really angry. I just felt it was pretty empty and didn't do enough. It felt like they tried to remain neutral after all that had happened.

Ehh...

Yeah, I don't know which is better, shunning or tip-toeing. Generally when you're dealing with a hate group you try to make them realize their feelings are extremely strange, bigoted and unacceptable. But to do that would be an invitation to be mobbed with more hate.

GG people just want to earn trust back from these sites and know that others hate "SJWs" too. But that's not really where we are at in this century. Most of us are actually kind of okay with social progression of underprivileged groups.

I'm pretty torn myself. On one side I'm like "Why are people so bigoted in this day and age!?!" And on the other side I'm like "Forcing equality is bad."

And then I'm like...well maybe asking people to not be bigoted is okay?
 

Pepboy

Member
I told a GGer this on Twitter the other day. They claimed that Quinn used Robin Williams' death to sell her game. I pointed out what you just said.

I didn't look for a reply, but the long string of notifications I then got tells me that they're not appreciative of facts and reason.

Reading this it makes me realize it may be easier to see both sides of the issue when I don't actually engage with one side. Maybe the proportion of crazy in GG is too high for it to be a reasonable movement; especially if people who associate with it continue to beat on a non-existent horse (Quinn stuff). Though I've also seen people here quick to write it off as I once did. I'm starting to get curious how things will turn out, whether some of the more reasonable faces of GG start to gain prominence or it just devolves into nothing.
 

ibyea

Banned
You missed where I said



This is basic, basic shit, people. We're talking "go read True Believer from the '50s because a lot of you clearly don't get it" sort of stuff. I'm not trying to give credence for #gamergate's actions or even their philosophy on the matter. I am simply trying to point out that these things are out there and #gamersgate has teeth because its supporters believe they are true. It's not logical, but it doesn't have to be.

It isn't about "Oh, #gamersgate said they are about ethics, but look at THIS ahaha! Laid my trap card. hashtag gamersgatedismantled". That hasn't worked, won't work, and will never work. If it did, Christianity would've died out after about 75 years. So would've Islam. Most religions. Most political movements and social movements too.

Yet.

The vast majority of those wishing to stop #gamersgate are being about as naive as a counter-movement can be. "Hey! If we start a different hashtag, badmouth them on forums, and ... stuff, maybe it'll go away!"

Meanwhile, #gamersgate is getting advertising pulled from websites, getting events cancelled (like Anita's recent university visit), doxxing, and making endless threats. Great job, anti-GGers! Slacktivism at its finest. What has actually been accomplished to slow down #gamersgate since it started ago? Mind you, it is the main talking point of anti-GGers that . If the #gamersgate message, behavior, and "true motive" has been the same for so long, how incompetent can people be, since nothing has really slowed it down at all.

That's why I advocate for journalists taking a head-on approach and addressing the years of underlying distrust that gives #gamersgate its teeth. It will be messy. But shouting "gamersgate is really bad and sexist" is going to do nothing, literally nothing.

No, these people deserve the disdain. These are the people, when confronted with reviews that doesn't conform to the score they were hyped to believe the game deserved from the marketing, lashes out. All the homogeneity and hype marketing crap that is a lot of gaming journalism? They didn't mind. They got the journalism they wanted. And they are lashing out because there are people varying from that status quo.

And no, it is no surprise that horrible attitudes cemented from society's cultural legacy is not slowing down, and chalking it up to "incompetency" is simplistic. And I don't know why you think we think our conversation on gamergate is going to put a stop it. If having any sort of conversation regarding injustices is predicated on people believing that the conversation is some sort of direct attack on whatever they are talking about, as if that will put a stop to it, then why bother conversing about anything at all? Each person will have different reason to talk about such things, whether to vent or to educate others. Don't tell others how to react to circumstances. If there are others that want to go for a direct attack, that is fine by me too. There are many ways to react, and not all have to be of your own personal liking.
 

Pepboy

Member
And that article, which paints gamergate in a very friendly light, is archived because they doxxed the author so he took it down.

Oh I didn't realize that. I read both interviews and felt both were pretty well done; I thought the "Anti-GG" side was well represented so I am surprised it was doxxed. I did notice the website was down but assumed it was traffic or maintenance related.
 
I doubt it. That assumption could disappear and there would still be assholes whining about women in gaming, doxxing and threatening people over it, which is what GamerGate is actually about.
But as you and others have said, people have made threats against women before #gamersgate and Zoe Quinn. But why did #gamersgate get so big? If it's still the same exact hate, why did #gamersgate get big but anti-Anita sentiments not get so big?

That is why your paradigm is flawed. You say "gamersgate is about hating women and it's all about that". You're not right. You're not wrong. In all honesty, it doesn't matter. The reason why this has teeth is quite obviously something other than hating women otherwise it would not have lasted so much longer than the other hate campaigns.

They could stop pretending to be about games journalism and they would still be active, doing what they do now, because their activities have very, very little to do with games journalism. The state of games journalism has nothing to do with the harassment of women. Seriously.
You keep saying this and you keep missing the point.
 
....
Which I felt addressed the difficulty both sides have in explaining what they are about. There certainly seems to be a very dangerous element of GamerGate. But it seems GamerGate's prominent members have also been given death threats, doxxed, etc. It's claimed to be misogynistic (and no doubt some are), but I can't deny they raised a lot of money for what appears to be a game development platform for women. So I have a hard time wrapping my head around what I believe GamerGate actually is (and not just what people tell me).
....

The Fine Young Capitalists ran a kickstarter that would raise money to pay their company to develop an idea supplied by a woman (who surrenders her ip) who would make a cut of the profits. They are not a non-profit organisation. ZQ pointed this out, a twitter war broke out and then the head of TFYC accused ZQ of DDOSing his site which he later admitted was not true but took his time. GG got behind this guy and donated to his fund out of spite against ZQ, altruistic this was not.
 

ibyea

Banned
The reason why this has teeth is quite obviously something other than hating women otherwise it would not have lasted so much longer than the other hate campaigns.

I find this statement to be laughable, considering gaming is not the only community I have found such things to happen.
 

stupei

Member
But as you and others have said, people have made threats against women before #gamersgate and Zoe Quinn. But why did #gamersgate get so big? If it's still the same exact hate, why did #gamersgate get big but anti-Anita sentiments not get so big?

That is why your paradigm is flawed. You say "gamersgate is about hating women and it's all about that". You're not right. You're not wrong. In all honesty, it doesn't matter. The reason why this has teeth is quite obviously something other than hating women otherwise it would not have lasted so much longer than the other hate campaigns.


You keep saying this and you keep missing the point.

Anti-Anita sentiments fund $10,000 a month to make a documentary about her. I wouldn't really say it's not very big.

But to answer your question about how this reached a more critical mass, I would think it has more to do with the presence of people like Baldwin and Milo championing this as a cause with a unified front rather than, as you keep suggesting, a legitimate deep-seated concern for things they never actually verbalize being concerned about.
 
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