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Games Journalism! Wainwright/Florence/Tomb Raider/Eurogamer/Libel Threats/Doritos

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unbias

Member
the more you get........of something that has little/no actual real world value, more often than not, particularly since stretch goals are often for things that go into an actual sold product so that anyone who buys it eventually will get it.

if you continue to follow this logic, it will eventually lead you to "writers shouldn't write about games because the only reason people read games writing outlets is to read games writing so it gets them paid!"

Outside of commodities and need to live items, everything is a personal value judgement(Hell look at sports if you think there isnt a perceived value in things that are not "real world values"). Beyond that, you dont think that Star Citizen will be a better game for those who invested, because of the amount of capital that was raised? There is a lot of potential money in the game industry, and money is normally the leading cause of impropriety.

And no the logical steps of "dont give money into the industry you cover" does not lead to "writers shouldn't write about games", that's silly.
 

JackDT

Member
Adam Baldwin tweets about the gaming journalism conspiracy, very next tweet? Climate change conspiracy. I would lol if it weren't so depressing.
 
I get what you are saying, you are saying because you can say "emotional investment" that if you can apply it to an economical one you can apply it to all of them, but I disagree. I'm saying since both require monetary investment from the consumer it is in the same vein and reasoning.

There is a significant difference in financial investments and patronage. After making a financial investment a person has tied their monetary wellbeing to the performance of that investment. That creates a concrete desire on the part of the investor to see the investment perform well after the investment has been made that did not exist before the investment was made.

No such motivation is created by donating to a struggling developer or any other cause. You may say that the journalist has a desire to see the developer or cause succeed. But that desire already existed at the point the journalist wanted to make the donation, regardless of whether or not the donation is actually made. The donation is merely an expression of an already existing bias. Therefore, no bias has been eliminated and no integrity has been maintained by prohibiting the journalist from donating to a Patreon. All you're doing is making it harder to discover whether or not that bias exists.

Really, your concern for journalistic standards in videogame reporting seems to be a bit of tilting at windmills. An idealized journalism completely free of bias would be spectacularly boring to read.
 

daegan

Member
Outside of commodities and need to live items, everything is a personal value judgement(Hell look at sports if you think there isnt a previeved value in things that are not "real world values"). Beyond that, you dont think that Star Citizen will be a better game for those who invested, because of the amount of capital that was raised? There is a lot of potential money in the game industry, and money is normally the leading cause of impropriety.

And no the logical steps of "dont give money into the industry you cover" does not lead to "writers should write about games", that's silly.

SC will have more content for anyone who purchases it ever, not just the people who funded it. Historically, sequels to successful games also contain more of what made the last game popular because they have more money to spend because people "invested" in the product.
So again - that's bad logic. The guidelines you cited CLEARLY cover financial gain because that's all that's truly relevant. When it's unethical to get a copy of a game for review, and it's unethical to buy a game, how the hell is a writer supposed to play a game to write about it?

Short answer: it's not.
 

Yagharek

Member
I'd say you are looking at it from the literal sense, without seeing why it is an ethical issue. And the conflict of interest doesn't come from strict a legal sense. The point of the code of ethics is the ethics, not necessarily the legalities.

The point of a code of ethics absolutely IS to do with the legalities.
 

unbias

Member

Completely eliminating bias is impossible, but the idea that you have the same amount of incentive if you gave money vs if you didnt is a hard one to prove and one I'd disagree with, without proof.

As for chasing windmills? I already said if you want to be the enthusiast press and dont really care about the politics of it all, I have no problem with it. I just think that if you try and sell your website as an actuall journalistic place of business, that you shouldn't monetarily invest capital in the industry you cover. Yes, eliminating bias is impossible, no such thing as a completely objective opinion, but that doesn't mean the possibility of a conflict of interest,when not giving off the appearance is so easy, and you can still talk about projects you like.

SC will have more content for anyone who purchases it ever, not just the people who funded it.

Yes, but the people who funded the project have more of a reason to see it succeed then those who did not. And have more of an incentive to push it, again it is appearance, and the goal is to stay as impartial as possible(as a journalist, not as a pundit though).

The point of a code of ethics absolutely IS to do with the legalities.

Huh? Journalism ethics isn't simply about legalities.
 
I have to say I have gained a lot of respect for Kotaku and Totilo over the recent events. He made a good call regarding their ethics policy and is standing by it. Meanwhile what seems like the entire games press is lashing out with mocking or derision over the change, because they are attributing it to 'appeasing' the same crowd that is attacking and harassing Zoe Quinn and others.

It's the opposite actually, by picking out a specific issue that is a real problem (the close relationship between the press and the people they are supposed to cover and report on) and fixing it, Totilo is proving himself rational and able to respond to criticism without the kneejerk contrarian reaction.

It was in this very thread during the original Doritios-gate that Totilo himself initially responded with the same mocking jeers that the games press usually has towards anyone claiming they are doing something wrong. And after he was presented with more proof he eventually came back and owned up to it. This time he actually gave this real consideration from the beginning and that is progress. Props to him and Kotaku.

Look at Harmonix's kickstarter. That was absolutely going to fail, it was no where near there target and not trending to hit it. Then some friends in the industry start promoting it, they appeared on Giant Bomb and the like.

You personally may have no connection to them, which is a shame if you're tarred with the same brush, but having the press tell the audience that we should support stuff that's made by their friends, particularly if it doesn't actually exist yet, is uncomfortable at best

The same thing happened with the Republique kickstarter. It's hard to watch certain kickstarters get insane amounts of good press and hype that leads to quick funding, due to the closeness of the people behind it to the usual game journalism clique. Especially when you see so many kickstarters fail that are from developers who simply keep their head down and make games and so are less personality-based, or may be from another country or behind a language barrier so thus do not have access to the same level of social contacts that drive the huge kickstarter bumps.

However, marketing yourself is just another important part of running a business and promotion/advertising. I'm sure some of the Kickstarters that got a big boost from the social media sphere of game journalists took into account how the social contacts they have made from being in the game industry PR or game journalism would help their campaign.

It's similar to the Patreon thing, in a lot of industries you are marketing yourself and trying to make a name for yourself. Having prominent game journalists tweeting your name when they support your patreon is getting your name out there and expanding your 'brand'. When you have these same people being friends and then having to write about and criticize the products made from them, there is inevitably going to be a conflict of interest.
 
The same thing happened with the Republique kickstarter. It's hard to watch certain kickstarters get insane amounts of good press and hype that leads to quick funding, due to the closeness of the people behind it to the usual game journalism clique. Especially when you see so many kickstarters fail that are from developers who simply keep their head down and make games and so are less personality-based, or may be from another country or behind a language barrier so thus do not have access to the same level of social contacts that drive the huge kickstarter bumps.

Republique had Ryan Payton in its corner. Former Halo 4 director, form Metal Gear Solid 4 producer. Formerly worked with Hideo Kojima to Westernize MGS. Big names and he took his association with them to go make his own game. The story writes itself.
 
Republique had Ryan Payton in its corner. Former Halo 4 director, form Metal Gear Solid 4 producer. Formerly worked with Hideo Kojima to Westernize MGS. Big names and he took his association with them to go make his own game. The story writes itself.

Indeed, but without the huge outburst of press when it was failing by game journalists on social media it would have missed it's goal.
 
Completely eliminating bias is impossible, but the idea that you have the same amount of incentive if you gave money vs if you didnt is a hard one to prove and one I'd disagree with, without proof.

Let's try and be a bit more explicit and see if you will understand my thinking:

Investment
Before purchasing stock in a company, I may have a general desire to see them succeed. That could create some amount of bias. But after purchasing (a meaningful amount of) stock, I have personally put thousands of dollars of my money on the line, with the hope that I will make thousands more. The act of purchasing stock has created a personal risk to me of losing thousands of dollars, and a personal motivation to me of gaining thousands of dollars. That risk and that motivation did not exist before purchase.

Patronage
At the point anyone decides to donate to a Patreon or a Kickstarter, they have already decided in their mind that they want the developer to succeed or the game to be made. That's why they decided to contribute money! If there are stretch goals they see and want, they already want those goals to be met before they donate! So what does the actual act of donating $10 change? Well, it does put $10 at risk. Aaand, that's it! They donated because they had the desire to see the project succeed, they didn't suddenly become emotionally invested because they are worried about their $10.


So therefore any emotionally derived motivation already existed before the donation, and any monetary motivation is so miniscule as to be irrelevant when compared to an actual financial investment as contemplated in the ethical codes you referenced.
 

JABEE

Member
Republique had Ryan Payton in its corner. Former Halo 4 director, form Metal Gear Solid 4 producer. Formerly worked with Hideo Kojima to Westernize MGS. Big names and he took his association with them to go make his own game. The story writes itself.
It also helps when you have deep ties with gaming journalists. He used to work for 1UP.
 

daegan

Member
Yes, but the people who funded the project have more of a reason to see it succeed then those who did not. And have more of an incentive to push it, again it is appearance, and the goal is to stay as impartial as possible(as a journalist, not as a pundit though).

No, I'm pretty sure everyone who buys a product wants it to be the best product possible, regardless of how they pay for it.

The same thing happened with the Republique kickstarter. It's hard to watch certain kickstarters get insane amounts of good press and hype that leads to quick funding, due to the closeness of the people behind it to the usual game journalism clique. Especially when you see so many kickstarters fail that are from developers who simply keep their head down and make games and so are less personality-based, or may be from another country or behind a language barrier so thus do not have access to the same level of social contacts that drive the huge kickstarter bumps.

However, marketing yourself is just another important part of running a business and promotion/advertising. I'm sure some of the Kickstarters that got a big boost from the social media sphere of game journalists took into account how the social contacts they have made from being in the game industry PR or game journalism would help their campaign.

It's similar to the Patreon thing, in a lot of industries you are marketing yourself and trying to make a name for yourself. Having prominent game journalists tweeting your name when they support your patreon is getting your name out there and expanding your 'brand'. When you have these same people being friends and then having to write about and criticize the products made from them, there is inevitably going to be a conflict of interest.

If you are not using connections you have to market yourself then you are not doing your job. Just because someone isn't using a PR company to pitch writers on their campaign doesn't mean they can't/shouldn't do it. The two examples you picked out are notable not just for who is involved or their relationships, but also - and I would argue primarily - for the quality and actuality of what the games are: a AAA original game on mobile and a revival of one of the cult-est of cult games.

Again, the super problematic thing for me is that some of these developers do not have any other way to be supported - and don't want it in some cases. If someone wants to give their work away and a writer wants to support them for it, I really don't see why that needs to be an issue until that writer needs to cover that person; if they want to only make their work available in that way why shouldn't they still be covered? Why should they have to give their work away for free for coverage? Why is it okay for an outlet to buy a copy of a game to cover it if the pub doesn't send it out for review but it's not okay for a writer to support a developer? Is it then okay for the outlet to do so as a whole? Meaning - let's say X dev makes Y game available only through Patreon - is it cool if Kotaku (via Gawker) throws money their way to get the game to cover it? Why/why not?

...and again we go back to: we constantly pick genre fans to write genre reviews; we pick franchise fans to do interviews of people who drive franchises. Why is this suddenly an issue? Just an example, but: is it a problem that Kagari bought (insert random Final Fantasy item here) when she runs a FF-focused site? So why is it okay to worship franchises, to pray at the altar of publishers, but not to kneel for a small developer?

These are bumps in the road that come from an industry that is just now finding new ways to monetize itself after only having one for almost its entire lifespan. We will figure it out.
 
It also helps when you have deep ties with gaming journalists. He used to work for 1UP.

Yeah, doesn't help everyone. John Davison for example. You probably haven't heard of Red Robot's games. Trust me, the Kojima/MGS and Halo connections are much better story-wise.
 

unbias

Member
Let's try and be a bit more explicit and see if you will understand my thinking:

Investment
Before purchasing stock in a company, I may have a general desire to see them succeed. That could create some amount of bias. But after purchasing (a meaningful amount of) stock, I have personally put thousands of dollars of my money on the line, with the hope that I will make thousands more. The act of purchasing stock has created a personal risk to me of losing thousands of dollars, and a personal motivation to me of gaining thousands of dollars. That risk and that motivation did not exist before purchase.

Patronage
At the point anyone decides to donate to a Patreon or a Kickstarter, they have already decided in their mind that they want the developer to succeed or the game to be made. That's why they decided to contribute money! If there are stretch goals they see and want, they already want those goals to be met before they donate! So what does the actual act of donating $10 change? Well, it does put $10 at risk. Aaand, that's it! They donated because they had the desire to see the project succeed, they didn't suddenly become emotionally invested because they are worried about their $10.


So therefore any emotionally derived motivation already existed before the donation, and any monetary motivation is so miniscule as to be irrelevant when compared to an actual financial investment as contemplated in the ethical codes you referenced.

As for investment. I dont completely agree. I have angel invested in projects that I was motivated to see succeed, even though I was very skeptical if they were going to succeed(normally dont do this but I liked the projects) that I invested in anyways because I hoped it would(couple have failed on me one did quite good) end up becoming something more then an idea. So I dont think it is a simple 1 to 1, but on the whole I get what you are saying; the money is more, the risk is more, so the investment is more, which I agree with, there is more incentive with financial investments.

As for your other. I dont know, I have been part of angle investments that I've put very little money in(because I had very little faith in it) relative to others, that I already wanted to succeed before investing, and after words I felt more motivated to want to see the guys do good(even though what I invested was relatively small). I think there is a psychological difference when you put money into something, even if before hand you wanted the project to proceed and do good. And to that point, if you are a journalist, I think even emotional investments you have to be very careful about; and your bosses, I think, have to make sure you dont do anything that puts the integrity paper/website/ect in jeopardy. Again though, I do think you are more attached to a project the moment you give money.

I'm not saying that there aren't people out there who wont lose integrity from giving to a kickstarter/patron, but I do think there are enough that would(just from my personal experiences in finances) that leads me to think the same ethical issues are arrived from economical investment as well as financial. I understand what you are saying, I honestly do, I just place more value when someone actively funds something. I respect your view and understand it, I just don't agree with the sentiment, I think the chances of impropriety are higher then you think, the moment money gets involved, personally.

No, I'm pretty sure everyone who buys a product wants it to be the best product possible, regardless of how they pay for it.

After the product is finalized, sure, but I dont think the incentive is the same prior to the finalized product.
 

Yagharek

Member
Huh? Journalism ethics isn't simply about legalities.

Ethics or codes of conduct are also about more than perceived or actual conflicts of interest. They include things about equal opportunity employment, harassment, discrimination. health and safety etc. Which are all to do with legalities as well as moral obligations.

I'm sure there are plenty of areas of gaming journalism where those would be considerations.
 

LuchaShaq

Banned
Indeed, but without the huge outburst of press when it was failing by game journalists on social media it would have missed it's goal.

The twitter spam for that game was so ovebearing I unfollowed half a dozen people and was actually a jerk and really happy when everyone I know who played the game called it a piece of shit.
 

daegan

Member
After the product is finalized, sure, but I dont think the incentive is the same prior to the finalized product.

we are fast approaching a point where a lot of games aren't final. should nobody have written about dota 2 while it was in beta? since characters are added to league all the time, is writing about that wrong? are you saying no writers should buy literally any early access games to be able to cover them? because I sure wouldn't send out review code of a game that was in early access.

your thinking here is just trapped in the ideas of what a game was. not what a game is now.
 

JMargaris

Banned
That Twitter conversation is so frustrating.

1. I really dislike that Twitter conversations are defined by whoever is the most persistent and obnoxious. The arguments in that conversations aren't good - they're just repeated endlessly, in hopes the the squeaky wheel will get greased. My favorites are "in a few years this will look like a bad decision" (AKA "I possess magical knowledge of the future") and "other problems are more important" - ok, sure, but then again AIDS in Africa is more important than Kotaku no longer allowing Patreon so why not Tweet about that instead? That argument is self-invalidating for all but literally the single most important problem in the universe.

2. I also really dislike when people elect themselves to speak for broad swaths of people - some well-established white dudes on Twitter don't speak for indie devs, they don't speak for marginalized people. They don't speak for anyone but themselves and their immediate circle. Instead of saying "this is unfair to indies" they should say "this is unfair to me or my friends." As an indie developer I'll decide for myself if this is unfair. (Spoiler: in my opinion it's not) I didn't vote for Casey Malone, Alex Navarro or anyone else to represent me.


3. It's moronic to view everything through the lens of some infantile "SJW" vs "anti-SJW" holy war. "If you take this course of action the 'bad guys' will see this as you siding with them in our laughable twitter feud!" What a ridiculous and embarrassing way to evaluate a decision - this decision is in line with journalism standards and is completely justifiable but we're opposed because it may boost the morale of our mortal foes...what? This should be beneath intelligent adults.

We're now at the point where people believe that being on the "right" side of this quixotic crusade is more important than basic journalism principles.

4. This is not about big evil corporations vs lovable "fight the man" indies. Being an indie developer doesn't make you morally superior or a good guy. Siding with indies vs corporations has nothing to do with morality or justice. Being on Patreon doesn't mean you're marginalized or that you deserve money more than anyone else.


5. Nothing prevents indie developers from selling products. Anyone can get their game on the eShop, on PSN or PS Mobile, or iOS or Andoid. It's not hard to get on ID@Xbox. Steam is the only platform that isn't easy to get on, but even then there are PC alternatives.

Anyone who uses a Patreon to make games can just SELL THOSE GAMES. It's not either or. Selling products is not something big evil corporations have patented. In addition any indie developer (at least in the US) can become a corporation if they have 3 hours and 200 bucks. (I know, I did it) Video games are a salable product. They don't require a patronage model.
---

I really hope Kotaku doesn't let the opinions of a handful of people on Twitter (many of whom travel from one Twitter war to the next and seem at least as interested in the drama as in the ostensible issues) to sway them.
 

unbias

Member
we are fast approaching a point where a lot of games aren't final. should nobody have written about dota 2 while it was in beta? since characters are added to league all the time, is writing about that wrong? are you saying no writers should buy literally any early access games to be able to cover them? because I sure wouldn't send out review code of a game that was in early access.

your thinking here is just trapped in the ideas of what a game was. not what a game is now.

It's clear this discussion is pretty black and white with you, so all I can say is, I disagree that putting money into a project doesn't change your perspective.
 

Trojan

Member
  1. Kotaku was boxed into a "lose-lose" corner from this story. No matter what they did, one half of the population would be pissed.

    I applaud them for 1) reacting with legitimate concern over disclosure issues, and 2) acting quickly. Maybe the Patreon-only ban wasn't the right call; it was a little myopic vs. making broader changes about pre-release donations in general. But at least they made a decision and stuck with their guns. Change will only start if someone's willing to take the first step, and I applaud them for addressing this and moving forward.


  2. As far as the nitpicking on what constitutes an "investment" - I would agree that the difference between stocks and a kickstarter is substantial because you are not getting proportional returns on your investment (don't say that funding goal rewards are...that doesn't pass the common sense test). However, if a games journalist wants to exercise old school integrity, they should understand that any donated money to the industry they cover is fair-game to be scrutinized. If that bothers someone then they probably shouldn't donate in the first place.
 

Dugna

Member
we are fast approaching a point where a lot of games aren't final. should nobody have written about dota 2 while it was in beta? since characters are added to league all the time, is writing about that wrong? are you saying no writers should buy literally any early access games to be able to cover them? because I sure wouldn't send out review code of a game that was in early access.

your thinking here is just trapped in the ideas of what a game was. not what a game is now.

LoL and DoTA2 are free to play though...they require no investment past time playing them...
 

LTWood12

Member
That Twitter conversation is so frustrating.

1. I really dislike that Twitter conversations are defined by whoever is the most persistent and obnoxious. The arguments in that conversations aren't good - they're just repeated endlessly, in hopes the the squeaky wheel will get greased. My favorites are "in a few years this will look like a bad decision" (AKA "I possess magical knowledge of the future") and "other problems are more important" - ok, sure, but then again AIDS in Africa is more important than Kotaku no longer allowing Patreon so why not Tweet about that instead? That argument is self-invalidating for all but literally the single most important problem in the universe.

2. I also really dislike when people elect themselves to speak for broad swaths of people - some well-established white dudes on Twitter don't speak for indie devs, they don't speak for marginalized people. They don't speak for anyone but themselves and their immediate circle. Instead of saying "this is unfair to indies" they should say "this is unfair to me or my friends." As an indie developer I'll decide for myself if this is unfair. (Spoiler: in my opinion it's not) I didn't vote for Casey Malone, Alex Navarro or anyone else to represent me.


3. It's moronic to view everything through the lens of some infantile "SJW" vs "anti-SJW" holy war. "If you take this course of action the 'bad guys' will see this as you siding with them in our laughable twitter feud!" What a ridiculous and embarrassing way to evaluate a decision - this decision is in line with journalism standards and is completely justifiable but we're opposed because it may boost the morale of our mortal foes...what? This should be beneath intelligent adults.

We're now at the point where people believe that being on the "right" side of this quixotic crusade is more important than basic journalism principles.

4. This is not about big evil corporations vs lovable "fight the man" indies. Being an indie developer doesn't make you morally superior or a good guy. Siding with indies vs corporations has nothing to do with morality or justice. Being on Patreon doesn't mean you're marginalized or that you deserve money more than anyone else.


5. Nothing prevents indie developers from selling products. Anyone can get their game on the eShop, on PSN or PS Mobile, or iOS or Andoid. It's not hard to get on ID@Xbox. Steam is the only platform that isn't easy to get on, but even then there are PC alternatives.

Anyone who uses a Patreon to make games can just SELL THOSE GAMES. It's not either or. Selling products is not something big evil corporations have patented. In addition any indie developer (at least in the US) can become a corporation if they have 3 hours and 200 bucks. (I know, I did it) Video games are a salable product. They don't require a patronage model.
---

I really hope Kotaku doesn't let the opinions of a handful of people on Twitter (many of whom travel from one Twitter war to the next and seem at least as interested in the drama as in the ostensible issues) to sway them.

Thanks for communicating what I'm not talented enough to write.
 

unbias

Member
  1. As far as the nitpicking on what constitutes an "investment" - I would agree that the difference between stocks and a kickstarter is substantial because you are not getting proportional returns on your investment (don't say that funding goal rewards are...that doesn't pass the common sense test). However, if a games journalist wants to exercise old school integrity, they should understand that any donated money to the industry they cover is fair-game to be scrutinized. If that bothers someone then they probably shouldn't donate in the first place.

Never claimed proportional returns, I was just giving examples of actual returns, trying to highlight that more capital for a game you get does benefit the people taking the risk, more then those who don't fund a project.
 

Aaron

Member
The twitter spam for that game was so ovebearing I unfollowed half a dozen people and was actually a jerk and really happy when everyone I know who played the game called it a piece of shit.
I've put money into more than twenty kickstarters. Republique is currently my only regret, but it was a learning experience. Always be careful of the hype.
 

jetsetrez

Member
The twitter spam for that game was so ovebearing I unfollowed half a dozen people and was actually a jerk and really happy when everyone I know who played the game called it a piece of shit.
Same (aside from the schadenfreude part). I find myself having to do it again due to all of this drama. I've had to unfollow most people related to Idle Thumbs simply because opening up Twitter everyday was just becoming a frustrating experience, where everything is scandalizing indie dev/feminism/journalism drama, or even current events (Ferguson). I think Ryan O Donnell and Steve Gaynor must've retweeted hundreds of Ferguson-related items a day the first few days, as if nobody else reads the news.

I really think Twitter is an awful medium for these nuanced issues, and only does a disservice to everyone, reducing any real, cogent dialog to the most reductive levels, and in turn making everything just that much more toxic and inflammatory.

I miss when vidya games were cool. I still think they're cool. :(
 

daegan

Member
LoL and DoTA2 are free to play though...they require no investment past time playing them...

Yet you can spend money on them, and they're not what people would traditionally consider "finalized". The point I'm making is that setting up an arbitrary line of when you can spend money on a game to get the game or things in the game is a bad precedent.
 

riceandpea

Neo Member
The irony of all this is that if a journalist is seen to be given free games, they're considered corrupt. Now if a journalist buys/pre-orders/backs (which, in my opinion, is an elaborate pre-order) they are having their legitimacy and objectivity called into question.

Rock. Hard place.

Of course backing a Kickstarter (et al) project is investment, but not in the same sense as a venture capital or business would invest in an idea.

There is no financial gain in backing a project, merely the personal gratification that you have - in some way - helped a game get produced that perhaps wouldn't have been otherwise. That, to me, suggests a level of excitement and interest outside of the raft of other games being made.

I find it very cynical to expect journalists to avoid any kind of backing. They are, ultimately, gamers, and I find it ridiculous to expect them to not get excited enough to want to help a game get made - in much the same way that many of us do.

And the argument that by backing a game to make it successful and, therefore, lead your own site to benefit from the content created for it? That's utterly ridiculous.

First off - if a game was that popular on Kickstarter (I'm talking Double Fine/Pillars Of Eternity, very little else) then it wouldn't need the journalists backing in the first place. It is popular already, what is another $20?

And if it is so popular, then any content produced is going to be popular - regardless of the writer's interest in the game.

And a writer being interested in a game, is that really any different than any other articles they write? Look at Christian Donlan on Eurogamer - he writes about a lot of indie/unknown games because he is excited, because he is passionate, because he wants other people to be excited too.

You can bet you ass he'd paid money to see these games made, I should bloody well hope so. If he's excited enough to show us these games, should he not be excited to spend money on it as well?

The argument really comes down to whether we should be calling games writers 'journalists' at all. I'm not going to argue whether or not what they do is journalism, but at it's very core it is hobbyist writing. It is people who are interested in our subject writing about something they care about. I would want them to spend money on things that excite them.

Let's take an extreme equivalent - someone who writes for a snowboarding magazine. You'd expect these people are excited about snowboarding; would they have their favourite styles? Their favourite brands? Their favourite snowboarders? You can guarantee they will, and they shouldn't need to defend themselves.

Ultimately you think of games journalists as newspaper/news media journalists, and hold them up to some weird kind of pedestal. But newspaper journalists are considerably more corruptible and biased than any games writer, at least games 'journalists' have the passion to actually care about what they write, what they spend money on and - ultimately - the things they publish in print and online.

Rant over.
 

Marsyas

Banned
Being socially chummy with developers? Fine.

That's a problem of the "indie scene" and Kotaku's new policy is a step to address this problem. It prevents their writers from adding yet another layer of personal bonds and financial dependencies between themselves and the subjects they cover.

Within the group of people who create independent video games there are some well-connected and privileged developers who have a very close relationship to some parts of the press. Together they (devs and journos) constitute a highly exclusive clique that pretends to be the voice of all indie games and they basically monopolize the discourse (I may have exaggerated a bit). That’s bad for gaming and it’s bad for game journalism.

It's bad for journalism and the readers because it's more difficult to have a critical distance when the relationships are too close, which can lead to bad coverage of indie games. There's also the risk that journalists write only about their friends/acquaintances and ignore other indie devs who aren't part of their clique. The Twitter conversations clearly indicate how some journos are incapable of any critical distance whatsoever, as soon as their relations come under scrutiny. The toxic "us vs. them"-exaggerations they tweeted (the anti-feminist manbabies won; capitalism won; marginalized voices are cut off) kinda show that. For me, it's also worrying that the same journalists who often contest sexism/racism/exclusion/etc. in gaming at large are quite silent about the discriminations within their own little scene (because, imho, they lack the distance to write about it).

And it's bad for independent gaming as a whole because these close relationships consolidate the inequality that already exists: those who are well connected get the public's attention. The outsiders are on their own. They get locked out, even if their games are excellent (I may have exaggerated a bit again).

Thank you.
 

FoneBone

Member
The irony of all this is that if a journalist is seen to be given free games, they're considered corrupt. Now if a journalist buys/pre-orders/backs (which, in my opinion, is an elaborate pre-order) they are having their legitimacy and objectivity called into question.

Rock. Hard place.

Of course backing a Kickstarter (et al) project is investment, but not in the same sense as a venture capital or business would invest in an idea.

There is no financial gain in backing a project, merely the personal gratification that you have - in some way - helped a game get produced that perhaps wouldn't have been otherwise. That, to me, suggests a level of excitement and interest outside of the raft of other games being made.

I find it very cynical to expect journalists to avoid any kind of backing. They are, ultimately, gamers, and I find it ridiculous to expect them to not get excited enough to want to help a game get made - in much the same way that many of us do.

And the argument that by backing a game to make it successful and, therefore, lead your own site to benefit from the content created for it? That's utterly ridiculous.

First off - if a game was that popular on Kickstarter (I'm talking Double Fine/Pillars Of Eternity, very little else) then it wouldn't need the journalists backing in the first place. It is popular already, what is another $20?

And if it is so popular, then any content produced is going to be popular - regardless of the writer's interest in the game.

And a writer being interested in a game, is that really any different than any other articles they write? Look at Christian Donlan on Eurogamer - he writes about a lot of indie/unknown games because he is excited, because he is passionate, because he wants other people to be excited too.

You can bet you ass he'd paid money to see these games made, I should bloody well hope so. If he's excited enough to show us these games, should he not be excited to spend money on it as well?

The argument really comes down to whether we should be calling games writers 'journalists' at all. I'm not going to argue whether or not what they do is journalism, but at it's very core it is hobbyist writing. It is people who are interested in our subject writing about something they care about. I would want them to spend money on things that excite them.

Let's take an extreme equivalent - someone who writes for a snowboarding magazine. You'd expect these people are excited about snowboarding; would they have their favourite styles? Their favourite brands? Their favourite snowboarders? You can guarantee they will, and they shouldn't need to defend themselves.

Ultimately you think of games journalists as newspaper/news media journalists, and hold them up to some weird kind of pedestal. But newspaper journalists are considerably more corruptible and biased than any games writer, at least games 'journalists' have the passion to actually care about what they write, what they spend money on and - ultimately - the things they publish in print and online.

Rant over.

I don't like to cheerlead, but... this, so much.
 

ReaperXL7

Member
So I may have missed it (big thread) but I always wondered how Geoff got roped into all this? I mean he doesn't do reviews or anything, he's always been a hype man. So why was he lumped unto the "journalist" category in the first place?
 

Curufinwe

Member
So I may have missed it (big thread) but I always wondered how Geoff got roped into all this? I mean he doesn't do reviews or anything, he's always been a hype man. So why was he lumped unto the "journalist" category in the first place?

He calls himself one.

@geoffkeighley

Videogame journalist Geoff Keighley, host of Spike TV's GTTV
 

Moobabe

Member
Leigh Alexander has thankfully
not thankfully
weighed in on the issue.


While I can't help but agree with her overall message - some of the phrases she uses are just as obnoxiously click bait as anything I read online. There are also some serious leaps of logic in (almost) all of her work.

Matt Lees, too, has posted a video getting involved. I like Matt's work - but both he and Leigh seem to put forward an argument where - if you don't agree with us or if you don't care - you're the problem.
 

Dugna

Member
Leigh Alexander has thankfully
not thankfully
weighed in on the issue.


While I can't help but agree with her overall message - some of the phrases she uses are just as obnoxiously click bait as anything I read online. There are also some serious leaps of logic in (almost) all of her work.

Matt Lees, too, has posted a video getting involved. I like Matt's work - but both he and Leigh seem to put forward an argument where - if you don't agree with us or if you don't care - you're the problem.

So the main people who even make your site viable and help you get your paycheck at the end shouldn't be addressed, but that small minority pushing their views on others should? God do these writers even look at their statistics of who visits their sites?
 
There are merits to the piece, the idea that gaming is becoming more inclusive and that's a good thing, that games are evolving despite the dickheads, but...

‘Games culture’ is a petri dish of people who know so little about how human social interaction and professional life works

Coming from the author of this tweet:

2651937-capture-23277.jpg


I dunno, man. I agree with the goal of most of her stuff, but what does she gain from being so hateful all the time?
 

Mesoian

Member
There are merits to the piece, the idea that gaming is becoming more inclusive and that's a good thing, that games are evolving despite the dickheads, but...



Coming from the author of this tweet:

2651937-capture-23277.jpg


I dunno, man. I agree with the goal of most of her stuff, but what does she gain from being so hateful all the time?

To be fair, her hatred on that tip is understandable.

Maybe not just, but...understandable.

Also, I think that article is the best thing she's ever written and she's 100% on point for that entire thing.
 

Brashnir

Member
Matt Lees, too, has posted a video getting involved. I like Matt's work - but both he and Leigh seem to put forward an argument where - if you don't agree with us or if you don't care - you're the problem.

Playing the victim while antagonizing anyone who disagrees with you is the oldest trick in the propaganda playbook.

Never trust anyone who does that shit.
 

Zabka

Member
Leigh Alexander has thankfully
not thankfully
weighed in on the issue.


While I can't help but agree with her overall message - some of the phrases she uses are just as obnoxiously click bait as anything I read online. There are also some serious leaps of logic in (almost) all of her work.

Matt Lees, too, has posted a video getting involved. I like Matt's work - but both he and Leigh seem to put forward an argument where - if you don't agree with us or if you don't care - you're the problem.

Well, she has a good point about the competitive nature of games and rabid consumerism being a toxic mixture but the rest is just unfounded rambling. It is interesting to see someone take the exact opposite stance that Kotaku did and said "Fuck it, games writers and developers should be working together."
 

Moobabe

Member
She's a little mean, but I can totally understand that after the past week. Good read.

Yeah I get that - but it's the mentioning of "young white males" repeatedly in her stuff that rubs me the wrong way a little. Should I feel bad for being in that demographic? Do we have proof that it's that demographic being so hateful towards people?

So the main people who even make your site viable and help you get your paycheck at the end shouldn't be addressed, but that small minority pushing their views on others should? God do these writers even look at their statistics of who visits their sites?

Who knows man - I feel that this whole episode is making some people look really bad.

To be fair, her hatred on that tip is understandable.

Maybe not just, but...understandable.

Also, I think that article is the best thing she's ever written and she's 100% on point for that entire thing.

I still don't think it's understandable at all - but I don't want to derail.

Wouldn't be a Leigh Alexander post without people digging up "bad" shit she's done in the past!

Well - her past certainly colours people's opinions of her - she only has herself to blame for that.

Well, she has a good point about the competitive nature of games and rabid consumerism being a toxic mixture but the rest is just unfounded rambling. It is interesting to see someone take the exact opposite stance that Kotaku did and said "Fuck it, games writers and developers should be working together."

Yeah - I think her line of reasoning there is interesting and opens up a good discussion about the role of "press" in relation to developers. I don't believe that it's just as easy as "Why shouldn't we?!" though.
 

jschreier

Member
Well, she has a good point about the competitive nature of games and rabid consumerism being a toxic mixture but the rest is just unfounded rambling. It is interesting to see someone take the exact opposite stance that Kotaku did and said "Fuck it, games writers and developers should be working together."
Leigh (one of my favorite games writers and someone I respect quite a bit) also works as a consultant for game companies. She is not a traditional reporter, so her stance on ethics and conflicts of interest is likely far different than Stephen's (or mine), and there's nothing wrong with that. I do wish more people understood why a site like Kotaku wants to take hard-line ethical stances, but I have no problem with Leigh taking this perspective, considering her position.
 

Dugna

Member
There are merits to the piece, the idea that gaming is becoming more inclusive and that's a good thing, that games are evolving despite the dickheads, but...



Coming from the author of this tweet:

2651937-capture-23277.jpg


I dunno, man. I agree with the goal of most of her stuff, but what does she gain from being so hateful all the time?

I'm all for games becoming more inclusive, my own sister i've tried getting into gaming all the time same with most women I meet who ask me questions about gaming. I try to steer them towards certain titles I think would be what they would want. I definitely want women in gaming I want them to make their own games make a product that women can like and just enjoy themselves. What I'm sick of are these people who want "Social Justice" yet completely undermined and insult people who even have a slight non offensive opinion the theirs. Opinion Piece if more people took a stance like this I think we would find less and less problems with people accepting others into gaming. But when you get tweets and articles like above it just pushes them away with insults which makes nobody happy.
 

Moobabe

Member
Leigh (one of my favorite games writers and someone I respect quite a bit) also works as a consultant for game companies. She is not a traditional reporter, so her stance on ethics and conflicts of interest is likely far different than Stephen's (or mine), and there's nothing wrong with that. I do wish more people understood why a site like Kotaku wants to take hard-line ethical stances, but I have no problem with Leigh taking this perspective, considering her position.

I forgot about that.
 

JackDT

Member
Leigh sometime lashes out, and I think she's being unreasonably mean and hateful -- but then I do a search on her name and read what she's responding to and realize I'm seeing one half of a shouting match and there's a whole crowd screaming at her. The way twitter works, where I see only her side and none of the responses exacerbates this effect.

Everyone loses their shit sometimes. A single tweet removed from a conversation can indeed look pretty gross.

Another thing is that with the recent Zoe Anita shitshow I seem to be mentally distancing myself from the 'gamer' category -- and that distance is making me not take personally the 'you gamers' things she says anymore. Used to bug me because I would feel like I was being personally addressed that way. I'm conflicted about this.
 

jschreier

Member
That's a problem of the "indie scene" and Kotaku's new policy is a step to address this problem. It prevents their writers from adding yet another layer of personal bonds and financial dependencies between themselves and the subjects they cover.

Within the group of people who create independent video games there are some well-connected and privileged developers who have a very close relationship to some parts of the press. Together they (devs and journos) constitute a highly exclusive clique that pretends to be the voice of all indie games and they basically monopolize the discourse (I may have exaggerated a bit). That’s bad for gaming and it’s bad for game journalism.

It's bad for journalism and the readers because it's more difficult to have a critical distance when the relationships are too close, which can lead to bad coverage of indie games. There's also the risk that journalists write only about their friends/acquaintances and ignore other indie devs who aren't part of their clique. The Twitter conversations clearly indicate how some journos are incapable of any critical distance whatsoever, as soon as their relations come under scrutiny. The toxic "us vs. them"-exaggerations they tweeted (the anti-feminist manbabies won; capitalism won; marginalized voices are cut off) kinda show that. For me, it's also worrying that the same journalists who often contest sexism/racism/exclusion/etc. in gaming at large are quite silent about the discriminations within their own little scene (because, imho, they lack the distance to write about it).

And it's bad for independent gaming as a whole because these close relationships consolidate the inequality that already exists: those who are well connected get the public's attention. The outsiders are on their own. They get locked out, even if their games are excellent (I may have exaggerated a bit again).


Thank you.
Good stuff. It is refreshing to see posts like this in the wake of, yes, that "us vs. them" narrative I continue to see over and over again on twitter. (I mentioned it last night on my twitter feed too.) This bubble -- or even the appearance of a bubble -- is exactly what I believe people who consider themselves journalists should be trying to avoid, and that's one of the reasons we drew this line in the first place.
 

Moobabe

Member
Leigh sometime lashes out, and I think she's being unreasonably mean and hateful -- but then I do a search on her name and read what she's responding to and realize I'm seeing one half of a shouting match and there's a whole crowd screaming at her. The way twitter works, where I see only her side and none of the responses exacerbates this effect.

Everyone loses their shit sometimes. A single tweet removed from a conversation can indeed look pretty gross.

Another thing is that with the recent Zoe Anita shitshow I seem to be mentally distancing myself from the 'gamer' category -- and that distance is making me not take personally the 'you gamers' things she says anymore. Used to bug me because I would feel like I was being personally addressed that way. I'm conflicted about this.

I suppose that's something I forget. I guess I distance myself from the people she's talking about (and too) - and I don't get to see the shit that gets thrown her way on a daily basis. I can't imagine how that must make you feel.
 

Zaph

Member
Good stuff. It is refreshing to see posts like this in the wake of, yes, that "us vs. them" narrative I continue to see over and over again on twitter. (I mentioned it last night on my twitter feed too.) This bubble -- or even the appearance of a bubble -- is exactly what I believe people who consider themselves journalists should be trying to avoid, and that's one of the reasons we drew this line in the first place.

This touches a lot on why your recent twitter back and forth with Alex Navarro bothered me so much.

I don't think people in the games press industry understand or respect how different their jobs are. I love Giant Bomb, but Alex has a cushy job (along with most of his co-workers) at a personality-based site which generally involves playing games and having dumb fun. He sits in a position where it's very easy to cast judgement on others because his job isn't very demanding and may actually benefit from the cosy press/dev relationship.

Other outlets (like Kotaku) consider breaking the news and getting big stories a large part of their publication - as do a lot of traditional journalists. Patrick also started like this, but has maybe broken three stories during his entire tenure at Giant Bomb. So while this homogenisation or 'cozying' of the press/dev world (and the resulting cliques that form) may not bother Alex, he forgets that other journalists have to actually do their job under this newly formed hierarchy - which may be significantly harder if devs expect press to play nice and be their friend.
 
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