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Games that have ZERO respect for the player's time
- Thread starter RedZaraki
- Start date
SirPinkyNose
Member
An epic blueball waste of time: The thread?
Counterpoint: Chrono Trigger
I kinda agree with everyone who said Dark Souls, but at the same time I have a personal rule that mitigates a lot of the complaints:
I either have souls OR go exploring, never both. In practice that means whenever I get to a new area I farm mobs/sunbro/get summoned otherwise until I have enough souls to level up, afterwards I explore the new area and pick stuff up without a care in the world because I've made sure I've got nothing to lose.
By the time I reach NG+/++/... that obviously gets harder, but by then normal mobs shouldn't pose a thread anymore anyways.
I either have souls OR go exploring, never both. In practice that means whenever I get to a new area I farm mobs/sunbro/get summoned otherwise until I have enough souls to level up, afterwards I explore the new area and pick stuff up without a care in the world because I've made sure I've got nothing to lose.
By the time I reach NG+/++/... that obviously gets harder, but by then normal mobs shouldn't pose a thread anymore anyways.
This same answer from a number of people... I understand the sentiment behind "no pause = no respect" but it's not really a valid argument when you consider:
a) You can press Start -> Options -> Quit Game very quickly if you urgently need to step away.
b) The Souls games save for you like every 30 seconds even if you haven't done anything of note, so there's almost zero loss of progress.
Sure, it's not as convenient as pressing a button to pause, but you could extend the same argument to most if not all multiplayer/online games/modes.
You're not being "punished" by stepping away from the game, so don't spin it like that. I have a 2 year old and if they cry at night it's far less punishment to quit to the DS3 menu than it is to abandon Titanfall 2 or SFV mid-match.
Also, being unable to pause the game is not a "mechanic." It's simply a result of the systems in place and can be easily circumvented. The only exception is when you're invaded, in which case your options are to either play offline or pull the plug if you're desperate.
encephalon
Member
The original persona involves a dungeon that recently took me over six hours to complete, with no save points outside of the beginning, and a final boss that's pretty easy to get unlucky and wipe at. What a nightmare. Why.
blankempathy
Member
Some folks seem to be taking the phrase too literally. I more or less consider the definition op is talking about as game decisions designed to purposely waste peoples time with mundane things that offer no reward/pay off. Like locking progression behind grinds or fluff collectable items that don't really give you much of a reward besides an achievement. I don't consider the souls games to fall into this definition because the games are designed with an online element in mind.
Cow Mengde
Banned
Dragon Que... oh... Tons of open world games. Walk around doing nothing, or you spend more than walking than actually doing the quest.
OrbitalBeard
Member
Funny that so many people are citing Dark Souls / Bloodborne, as I genuinely believe these titles respect my time more than any other video games I have ever played.
And no, I'm not joking.
The games save your progress constantly. Outside of souls / blood echoes (which are easily recoverable or replenished), every item you obtain in the game is retained after dying. Tutorials are minimal and completely optional. And cutscenes are not only few and far between, they're all skippable.
I cannot think of another set of games that respects me, the player, more than Dark Souls and Bloodborne. The fact that they're challenging experiences has absolutely no bearing on how they "respect my time" as a player.
With all that said, if From Software wanted to add a pause function for offline play, I wouldn't be bothered by its inclusion.
And no, I'm not joking.
The games save your progress constantly. Outside of souls / blood echoes (which are easily recoverable or replenished), every item you obtain in the game is retained after dying. Tutorials are minimal and completely optional. And cutscenes are not only few and far between, they're all skippable.
I cannot think of another set of games that respects me, the player, more than Dark Souls and Bloodborne. The fact that they're challenging experiences has absolutely no bearing on how they "respect my time" as a player.
With all that said, if From Software wanted to add a pause function for offline play, I wouldn't be bothered by its inclusion.
Lux R7
Member
yeah this.
tiebreaker
Member
XCX with how they handle party organization. Seriously, you need to run around finding your party members everytime you need them.
Tokyo Mirage Sessions as you need to go to Tiki for everything, also unskippable session animations.
Tokyo Mirage Sessions as you need to go to Tiki for everything, also unskippable session animations.
I think that's the only JRPG I've beaten, actually.
Edit: no, I suppose there was Pokemon Blue as well.
I think a lot of people mistake not respecting your time with not being worth your time.
I don't think Souls is convenient at all and it asks a lot of devoted time from you to learn the gameplay mechanics and the stage layouts with little respect to the player and their time, and especially with stuff like not being able to pause (because seriously the two minutes it takes me to answer the phone doesn't validate resetting me on a boss fight I've been learning to approach, which exactly happens when you Save & Quit inside a boss area except all your health and estus/healing items are lost upon loading)
But with that said, it making worth on your time is a whole 'nother story. As someone who beat every Souls game at least twice and on count of Dark Souls III even thrice, I have to say the games are incredibly rewarding, it's just that like with everything else regarding respect to the player, their time isn't really something the game gives a damn about either, and that's part of the game's identity.
I don't think Souls is convenient at all and it asks a lot of devoted time from you to learn the gameplay mechanics and the stage layouts with little respect to the player and their time, and especially with stuff like not being able to pause (because seriously the two minutes it takes me to answer the phone doesn't validate resetting me on a boss fight I've been learning to approach, which exactly happens when you Save & Quit inside a boss area except all your health and estus/healing items are lost upon loading)
But with that said, it making worth on your time is a whole 'nother story. As someone who beat every Souls game at least twice and on count of Dark Souls III even thrice, I have to say the games are incredibly rewarding, it's just that like with everything else regarding respect to the player, their time isn't really something the game gives a damn about either, and that's part of the game's identity.
The only place where I disagree with this is Bloodborne and DS3 if you want the best gems or covenant rewards. While not necessary for completing the game (but are necessary for the 100% trophy), Bloodborne requires you to run thru a shitload of crappy dungeons for that and DS3 has made farming the convenant items (if you are no good at online invasions) really tedious. The bad thing is that most of the DS3 covenant items aren't even any good for anything but rather specific faith or magic builds.
matrix-cat
Member
Yakuza games, much as I love them, are terrible about this. Constant random fights that can be difficult to avoid when you're running around the city, that cannot be skipped or run away from once they begin. Every minigame has lengthy animations that can't be skipped or even hurried; play a UFO Machine and you have to watch the claw slooooowly move back and forth every single time. And if you want to go for the Platinum Trophy? Hoo boy, I hope you've got 100+ hours to spare. You'll be done with the good parts in a third of the time, and the remaining dozens upon dozens will be spent banging your head against minigames, pulling up rusty oil drums instead of fish, and wooing persnickety hostesses.
MGSV is also a great example. Unskippable helicopter rides every single time you deploy. Grinding, grinding, grinding, and then wait timers on top of the grinding. I honestly cannot think of a single reason why those wait timers are there. Amassing all the resources needed to develop something is already enough of a schlep; why do I need to wait potentially hours on top of that for a bar to tick down? I thought it was going to be so Konami could sell you the option to skip them with microtransactions, but as far as I know you can't. It's solely to waste your time.
MGSV is also a great example. Unskippable helicopter rides every single time you deploy. Grinding, grinding, grinding, and then wait timers on top of the grinding. I honestly cannot think of a single reason why those wait timers are there. Amassing all the resources needed to develop something is already enough of a schlep; why do I need to wait potentially hours on top of that for a bar to tick down? I thought it was going to be so Konami could sell you the option to skip them with microtransactions, but as far as I know you can't. It's solely to waste your time.
OrbitalBeard
Member
I can understand where you're coming from, but I've never considered it the responsibility of a developer to make going for 100% anything less than a complete waste of time.
Though I actually found going for all the trophies in Bloodborne to be incredibly rewarding and I was never bored. But I'm also the rare person who loved the chalice dungeons.
I'm Gona get flack for this.. Persona 4. After burning 60+ hours to get an ending I wished I had just watched the anime and not bothered. The dungeons were so damn boring to just repeating the same fights over and over then finding out you couldn't finish the dungeon that day and having to wait a few days of nothingness to get back to it.
Ughhhhh
Ughhhhh
InquisitorAles
Member
Thanks for reminding me why i hate this game so much. I spent almost 100 hours on this piece of crap with hopes for amazing ending (but it was shit too), so devastating and repetitive.
Movalpolos
Banned
Oh I forgot to add XCX.
i actually have to agree. a bit too many cutscenes and text. it isnt bad though
Intheflorsh
Banned
Mafia 3, especially those dozens of side missions where you have to drive a painfully slow truck from one side of the map to the other. They're a massive "fuck you" to the player.
Fallout 4 - specifically Settlements.
I'm doing Skyrim SE and the one thing I have to build is Lakeview. Get your stuff, choose what you want to build - plonk plonk plonk, done.
Fallout 4's completely granular approach is ridiculous. You could spend... what, days on a single building? I mean let's not even factor in how terrible the FPS view is for construction.
I seriously hope any future Beths game seriously pares this back into something significantly more modular in future
I'm doing Skyrim SE and the one thing I have to build is Lakeview. Get your stuff, choose what you want to build - plonk plonk plonk, done.
Fallout 4's completely granular approach is ridiculous. You could spend... what, days on a single building? I mean let's not even factor in how terrible the FPS view is for construction.
I seriously hope any future Beths game seriously pares this back into something significantly more modular in future
TheSpoiler
Member
There tons of methods to avoid random encounters in Yakuza. You can buy items that act as dispels, or in the later games, simply run away since most of the thugs wear similar clothing throughout the game (you can in the older ones, but I feel like it's harder to break sight). But the mini games are a little difficult due to the drawn out animations.
MGSV is actually a terrible example. The heli rides aren't (always) mandatory, as you can simply go to the next mission zone and start it save for a few places. Getting there takes a few minutes on horse or car, or you can just ship yourself around. If you wanna leave a mission after completion, just leave the zone and you don't have to call for a heli.
Additionally, you could just keep in the open world and only return to the base when you absolutely have to.
The reason why things have timers in that game is because - speaking purely offline here - so that you don't get even more overpowered before certain story beats. It prevents you from gaining access to the best of the best, and also allows people to use their GM towards things in battle.
I mean, if anything MGSV respects your time by allowing you to get dropped off at points close to the mission. having weapons dropped off where ever you are, having various modes of transportation, being able to scan and plan out which soldiers you'd need to take (if any) before going through a painstaking task of fultoning them for nothing, stream lining a base building mechanic, and sending soldiers out to nab materials at the halfway point. Shit, you can even auto assign your dudes and let them do their own thing, only returning once in a while to keep morale up.
The timer thing makes sense in the perspective of the gameplay, but then again I play offline and I hear it's different for those who play online.
To the credit of the people who played the game, MGSV doesn't really tell you to about avoiding the rides in the first place, so I guess I can't blame someone for not knowing that.
UncleSporky
Member
XCX may not respect the player's time in other ways, but I feel like this isn't a valid criticism.
A game having a really cool goal to look forward to that you have to wait a while to get isn't wasting your time. They're making you earn it, and making you feel the gamechanger after having had to walk everywhere for so long.
Ultimately it's a mobility thing, right? So it's like complaining that it takes X hours to be able to get Fly or Surf or Cut in Pokemon. Or that it takes X hours to get the Pegasus Boots or Zora Flippers in Zelda. The alternative being...what, you just start the game with those abilities? I suppose it could be said that doing so would "respect the player's time" but it's a compromise to the game design and the feeling of forward progress and upgrades.
One game that "respected the player's time" in this way was Saint's Row 3, that gave you access to a powerful VTOL jet for the majority of the game (all of the game?), which trivialized a number of misions and the city itself. It was easy to get around, sure, but ultimately I found the game pretty unmemorable because of it. I flew directly to every goal. I didn't care about any ground vehicles. I blasted through it pretty quickly and haven't played any other SR games since.
drotahorror
Banned
Dead by Daylight. At the moment (they're trying to remedy it a bit next week), it takes around 100 hours to have a Survivor with a solid loadout. Add another 150-200+ for a Killer loadout.
To get one character to prestige 3 (max) it takes about 100 hours. Add another 30-40 to level them up to make them playable.
To get one character to prestige 3 (max) it takes about 100 hours. Add another 30-40 to level them up to make them playable.
matrix-cat
Member
What you're proposing here takes even longer than waiting through the unskippable helicopter rides. Sure, if you already happen to be in the area that a mission can be started (an area you would have reached by sitting through an unskippable helicopter ride, by the way), then you can start it, but if you aren't? You're schlepping. There's no in-map fast-travel system, so you either have to return to the ACC and sit through another helicopter ride to deploy again, or you have to hope you've got D.Horse or a Jeep and drive the whole way.
No it doesn't. Needing to acquire GMP, blueprints and the resources required to develop those items are what restrict you from having end-game gear at the beginning of the game. The wait timers are only there to waste your time after you've gone through the hard work of farming resources.
None of that has anything to do with respecting your time. Calling in weapons is in fact an example of the opposite, because it takes forever. Sorting through your whole iDroid menu and having to have them dropped off one at a time, then waiting a needlessly long time for them to arrive. Just Cause 3 has the exact same mechanic, but it allows you to fill up a whole shopping cart of weapons and vehicles and have them all dropped to your position within seconds.
Movalpolos
Banned
The first Breath of Fire... oh god how could I forget. Fuck that game, worst random encounter rate. It's nearly unplayable today for me.
Destiny - Long load times and forcing people to return to the Tower for simple things like decrypting Engrams is stupid. Just let us do it from wherever like with Bounties now. They could pretty much let us do most tasks outside the Tower but no, we need to return to a useless social space for it.
MMOs - Wanna progress? Here, grind this garbage out and maybe we'll let you continue to the next quest step. Maybe. Boring. Lazy.
MMOs - Wanna progress? Here, grind this garbage out and maybe we'll let you continue to the next quest step. Maybe. Boring. Lazy.
The 3d Mario games. Why the fuck are there multiple stars in any stage and I get kicked out to the map after I collect one. Yes I know sometimes the stage changes slightly but usually it's the same damn thing. When the stages could change on the fly or change as certain criteria is met, every time its out to the world oh gets a dialogue box that asks if you want to save again.
It's an unpopular opinion, but one I really agree with. I've given up on Super Metroid multiple times because traversing the same areas over and over trying to figure out what's next and what you missed isn't fun, and I only get to game in limited amounts of time these days.
chris121580
Member
This. So much this. I gave up on this game...the choices they made are just mind boggling
Tons and tons of mobile games do this. It's been normalized into gacha games. These games usually start out okay, but as soon as you're slightly interested, it deliberately goes to shit into grindy garbage land in an attempt to make you pay money to make it suck less.
TheRedSnifit
Member
If something as basic as a pause function will kill the online mode, and even Souls fans agree that it would be "a better experience offline" (not my words!), then maybe FROM has failed to make the online mode engaging.
I am literally unable to comprehend how a gameplay mechanic that makes me lose progress because my real-life doorbell rang during a boss fight or while an enemy was right next to me and I got killed in the *several seconds* it takes to exit out of the game is not blatantly disrespecting my time.
Everquest back in the day, when you had to group soloing wasnt an option for most classes and the ones that could wasnt very efficient. I just remember logging in spending stupid amount of time to find a group and once you get into one either would break up soon and back at square one or didnt want to leave cause you were in a good group. Spent many late late nights abusing myself knowing I had to be at work by 7am.
Mr. Poolman
Member
The console version of The Last Remnant.
They had to fix the Steam version of the game to add a "turbo" mode, so the endless fights didn't took as long as a college degree.
They had to fix the Steam version of the game to add a "turbo" mode, so the endless fights didn't took as long as a college degree.
The game is better without flying breaking everything.
You have to actually learn the terrain, which is the best part of Sylvalum.
The real answer from that game would be any quest that requires you to get a collectible, as the game doesn't tell you where you can find any of them outside of what continent their on. Drops not only tell you what mob has them, but you can also buy them with tickets.
TylerDurden4321
Member
I'm playing Dragon Age Inquisition right now, that definitely qualifies for that.
Take out all the fetch quests and you'd end up with a really good game of 1/3 the length, that has some nice character development writing, looks great and... could really have more interesting combat, but still, it would be a lot better - and yes I know I don't have to do all the crap fetch-dog-fetch missions, but it feels like the kind of game where the journey is the destination, unlike... say, a Assassin's Creed where I have no problem skipping a ton of side stuff.
I also want to call out Borderlands. I don't remember any game where visiting the same barren locations over and over again to fetch more garbage felt as boring as in Borderlands 1. On paper Mad Max is the same barren collectathon, but having somewhat fun diversions during your fetch quest from other stuff in the world, made that game more bearable.
Take out all the fetch quests and you'd end up with a really good game of 1/3 the length, that has some nice character development writing, looks great and... could really have more interesting combat, but still, it would be a lot better - and yes I know I don't have to do all the crap fetch-dog-fetch missions, but it feels like the kind of game where the journey is the destination, unlike... say, a Assassin's Creed where I have no problem skipping a ton of side stuff.
I also want to call out Borderlands. I don't remember any game where visiting the same barren locations over and over again to fetch more garbage felt as boring as in Borderlands 1. On paper Mad Max is the same barren collectathon, but having somewhat fun diversions during your fetch quest from other stuff in the world, made that game more bearable.
Probably Persona 4 for me. I really felt like the game wanted to last way too much for the sake of it, without actually having much to say (eg: the dungeons). Skipping days was partially possible, but it just made it even more explicitly hollow in the unskippable parts.
Another one would be Tropico 4 (that recurring number), specifically the campaign. It could have had half the missions and still be a little stretched for what it could offer.
Another one would be Tropico 4 (that recurring number), specifically the campaign. It could have had half the missions and still be a little stretched for what it could offer.
bobbychalkers
Member
I couldn't do DQ7....I loved DQ3 as a kid and DQ9 on DS since it had a lot of modern bells and whistles but DQ7 is just too lumbering for me. I stopped 10 hours in which is a shame since I could see the quality in the writing.
Arthr2ShdsJcksn
Banned
Destiny, although it's so fun that I've let it treat me like an abusive spouse.
Witcher 3 - Just finished. That game needs an editor to chop about 60% of the game off.
Start with the horse races, fist-fights, and then make a better healing system, and make the upgrade/loot system better and the game would be just about perfect.
Witcher 3 - Just finished. That game needs an editor to chop about 60% of the game off.
Start with the horse races, fist-fights, and then make a better healing system, and make the upgrade/loot system better and the game would be just about perfect.
woopWOOP
Member
I kind of feel this way about Paper Mario Color Splash.
I like the game plenty. Stage locations, card battle system, Toad NPCs, they're all fine... but man, the game just feels slow at times, especially when selecting actions for battles (and the slow card roulette system) and some of the mandatory minigames. Ohyeah, returning to menu upon instant death at some sections is also unnecessary.
I like the game plenty. Stage locations, card battle system, Toad NPCs, they're all fine... but man, the game just feels slow at times, especially when selecting actions for battles (and the slow card roulette system) and some of the mandatory minigames. Ohyeah, returning to menu upon instant death at some sections is also unnecessary.
Possibly the best response. Dragon Age is a game that does as much right, as it does wrong with it's open world philosophy. Hopefully Mass Effect Andromeda is a step in the right direction, and the next DA game reaps the benefits of this.
Hell naw, Witcher 3 was a great game, open world done right. Don't forget a lot of that 60% is entirely optional.
jacksepticeye
Member
Max Payne 3!
I love that game but fuck those cutscenes.
I love that game but fuck those cutscenes.
I don't really understand the respect for time argument. If you only get to play for a few hours a week or whatever why does that mean you need to finish the game in a few sessions? What's wrong with taking years to finish the game?
However if a game is 70 hours of filler to 50 hours of good stuff and you have a compulsive personality then that's probably not the game for you.
However if a game is 70 hours of filler to 50 hours of good stuff and you have a compulsive personality then that's probably not the game for you.