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Gamespot: Can We Build a Gaming PC on a Console Budget?

This is a pretty flawed comparison though, because the games on Steam exist right now. Eight years in the future maybe the PS4 can compete? I don't know. You don't either. It probably wont.

It's a flawed comparison because you're comparing a one continuous platform versus one that has generations which may or may not be compatible with previous editions. Of course PC is going to have more games. It's a stupid comparison.
 
The bang for buck thing is from a decade ago, you could potentially apply it to their Gpu's but when it comes to the cpu department AMD is dead as dead can be, they can't compete, they flaunt more cores but when you need 4 more cores and way higher clock speeds to compete with even the most basic Intel cpu's why bother.

That's the sort of thing I need to learn about that a newcomer wouldn't know anything of. I'm seeing up to 5Ghz and 12 cores in AMD's processors and thinking it's pretty amazing compared to what Intel is offering for the money.
 
That's the sort of thing I need to learn about that a newcomer wouldn't know anything of. I'm seeing up to 5Ghz and 12 cores in AMD's processors and thinking it's pretty amazing compared to what Intel is offering for the money.

It does sound more awesome on paper until you look at the benchmarks, which is what i would suggest to anyone wondering wether to go AMD or Intel for their cpu.

Gpu wise AMD is good but i personally still do not like the software side of things so if i have to pay that Nvidia tax for decent software i would still always go with that.
 
I remain skeptical of the fact that you can make a PC from scratch for £160 which will beat the ps3 .If possible could you give a breakdown of the components needed ?

Go to PC Picker and put something together at $200-$300 and it will be better than any last-gen console. The PS3 has the equivalent of 2005's Geforce 7800 which has long been surpassed by many low-tier GPUs. Here was a recent deal for Radeon 6670 at $30; that will run circles around the last gen consoles. Before you say "well, that's sale price and unfair," sales like these are so common and constant that you can pick up something like this almost year-round. In a span of a couple of weeks, you will encounter enough parts on sale to put together an impressive little machine.


Here's one build for less than $300
but using only MSRP prices. Depending on your specific build and constant sales that pop up on parts, much better is doable. The biggest cost is really just the Windows license which may soon become a non-issue if SteamOS really takes off. Keep in mind that the $80~ or so for such a license is a fixed cost that will last years and much less than the console lifespan-long costs of XBL and PSN.

Perhaps your ignorance missed the part where I specified it rears it's head every time there's a discussion involving PCs and consoles together.

You made a stupid, broad claim and it was refuted. So now you're saying that in posts that highlight the advantages of PC gaming over console gaming, it MUST be explicitly pointed out to you that not "every single [PC] game runs flawlessly at 60fps and 1080p" ... when no one even implied such a thing? WHY? So the discussion can be "fair?" We're not babies here.

It's a moot point; 1080p/60fps is dependent on one's hardware and the game itself, hence the reason it doesn't need to be said each and every time. And again, WHY? That's not even the focal point of this argument and you're misdirecting discussion to a claim nobody has made (nor denied by not explicitly stating). You're deflecting the actual arguing points in this thread and baiting others into a non-argument with the use of a sweeping statement that is meant to portray PC gamers as deceiving individuals who overstate PC gaming performance.

The discussion we're having here is: can a gaming PC be built for about the same cost as a console and can it match or exceed the graphical performance of similar games on consoles? Yes. Performance-wise, PCs are a better value in 2014 and the value gap will continue to widen over this year and the following one to the point that there will be no doubt and Gamespot's article will become unnecessary and an unequivocal "duh." This thread will soon be pointless. For the first time ever, the price/performance gap between PCs and newly released consoles has practically vanished. This is what the thread is all about. The defensive folk are just arguing personal preferences irrelevant to facts.
 
good luck running The Witcher 3 on a dual core CPU

Pretty much.

It's a joke that they didn't factor in that more and more new-gen games are listing quad core (Intel) CPUs, with hyper-threading, as the minimum. This Intel build is dead, by the end of this year.
 
It's a flawed comparison because you're comparing a one continuous platform versus one that has generations which may or may not be compatible with previous editions. Of course PC is going to have more games. It's a stupid comparison.

This is ridiculous. So now PC's easily accessible, ongoing massive catalog vs abrupt cutoffs in console game libraries should not be considered in debating the merits of each? Like Objectively Bad Opinion said, you only think it's "stupid" because it makes your platform of choice look bad.
 
It's not a feeling it's a fact, most if not everything can be done better / easier on pc, the majority of the population might be moving to phones but that does not mean phones are actually doing it better so the entire world may agree with you but in the end it's a moot point because every feature on a phone is half-assed compared to the pc equivalent.




Go to your room.



Edit: Wait, i just saw the thread title, wasn't this a thread about hardware pricing?

I just wanted to address that one bit where you stated that everyone is moving to mobile.

Most games on mobile are F2P, so obviously it isnt fair to try to compare that market to the hardcore side of things.

What was that number again? Oh yea, %2.2. Only %2.2 of individuals (in this case %2.2 of 10 million tracked across 30 games) actually pay anything.

So when you say everyone is moving to mobile, I just don't think that sums it up adequately enough... seeing as how everyone who has a phone (apple, android, or windows) is essentially counted as a potential gamer. You have to ask yourself, how many people are actually doing any iAP (in app purchases)?
 
I just wanted to address that one bit where you stated that everyone is moving to mobile.

Most games on mobile are F2P, so obviously it isnt fair to try to compare that market to the hardcore side of things.

What was that number again? Oh yea, %2.2. Only %2.2 of individuals (in this case %2.2 of 10 million tracked across 30 games) actually pay anything.

So when you say everyone is moving to mobile, I just don't think that sums it up adequately enough... seeing as how everyone who has a phone (apple, android, or windows) is essentially counted as a potential gamer. You have to ask yourself, how many people are actually doing any iAP (in app purchases)?

I didn't really state that as fact, it was more like ''even if they are moving to ....''.

I probably worded that badly in my post.
 
I guess if discussing the huge catalogue of games available on PC because of backwards compatibility is off limits, then so are console exclusive games. Actually let's leave everything but raw IPS out of it, nobody on GAF plays games anyway.
 
Pretty much.

It's a joke that they didn't factor in that more and more new-gen games are listing quad core (Intel) CPUs, with hyper-threading, as the minimum. This Intel build is dead, by the end of this year.
I agree that builds based on dual cores are dead in the water for future games, but:
What games list quad core with hyperthreading as a minimum?
 
Read what that graph is about. Hint: It doesnt care about GPU performance.

Hmmm. The article is talking about CPU performance? That's nice and all but we are talking about the price (~$440) which includes that GTX 750TI along with the rest of that build?

I think I understand?
 
Getting into the PS4 price range, the biggest hindrance is the $80 Windows license.
There are several easy and illegal ways of knocking that off the total.

MgfYctW.gif
 
Hmmm. The article is talking about CPU performance? That's nice and all but we are talking about the price (~$440) which includes that GTX 750TI along with the rest of that build?

I think I understand?

The graph, not an article, shows how FX 5350 performs in comparison to i7-3960X.
It checks how big a bottleneck CPU is generally in games and it comes quite favorably.
It shows that games like Crysis 3 or BF 4 scales through the multiple cores very nicely, so games are mostly GPU bound in this scenario. ***********
Games like Civ 5 that are very CPU heavy are still playable, but of course performance suffers in comparison to high end solutions.
Games like Skyrim or Hitman Absolution that are DX9 are very dependent on single-core performance.
In concussion it shows that FX 5350 is not limiting GPU in modern engines in most cases. The concussion in the article is not completely correct, but the general point is that in 1080p in 30hz You wont be bottlenecked by this CPU in modern engines, especially with better API on the horizon.


********* Although i have to admit that Crysis 3 can be very CPU dependent where there are tons on grass on screen, which will improve in future, because is mostly bottlenecked by DX11 API, but for 30hz this CPU should be enough.
 
The graph, not an article, shows how FX 5350 performs in comparison to i7-3960X.
It checks how big a bottleneck CPU is generally in games and it comes quite favorably.
It shows that games like Crysis 3 or BF 4 scales through the multiple cores very nicely, so games are mostly GPU bound in this scenario. Although i have to admit that Crysis 3 can be very CPU dependent where there are tons on grass on screen, but for 30hz this CPU should be enough.
Games like Civ 5 that are very CPU heavy are still playable, but of course performance suffers in comparison to high end solutions.
Games like Skyrim or Hitman Absolution that are DX9 are very dependent on single-core performance.
In concussion it shows that FX 5350 is not limiting GPU in modern engines in most cases. The concussion in the article is not completely correct, but the general point is that in 1080p in 30hz You wont be bottlenecked by this CPU in modern engine.

Ahhh, I see. ( I think?) So CPUs (generally speaking) are useless (diminishing returns)for modern gaming? Maybe I can save some dough on this new rig I was thinking of building...
 
Ahhh, I see. ( I think?) So CPUs (generally speaking) are useless for modern gaming? Mayb I can save some dough on this new rig I was thinking of building...

Yes, high end CPUs are useless for 1080p 30hz console settings in future multiplatform titles.

No, they are not useless if You want high framerates and higher settings in multiplatform titles or play PC exclusives.
 
This is ridiculous. So now PC's easily accessible, ongoing massive catalog vs abrupt cutoffs in console game libraries should not be considered in debating the merits of each? Like Objectively Bad Opinion said, you only think it's "stupid" because it makes your platform of choice look bad.

It's comparing apples to oranges. Of course the PC has more games! It's an ongoing platform unlike consoles. Who would even debate it?
 
It's comparing apples to oranges. Of course the PC has more games! It's an ongoing platform unlike consoles. Who would even debate it?

Backwards compatibility is an important feature of the PC as a gaming platform, the fact that consoles don't allow it does not negate its existence. It would be like saying that you can't include buying and selling used games as a financial advantage of consoles, because you can't buy and sell used games on PC.

They're both equally valid points to be made in favour of either platform; I don't see a financial justification for buying a PS4 until the library gets larger, because I have a vast sea of games available to me on PC already; and Joe Blow doesn't see a reason to spend extra dough on a PC when he can't even trade games in to save cash, so he'd rather buy the cheaper system which gives him that choice.
 
It's comparing apples to oranges. Of course the PC has more games! It's an ongoing platform unlike consoles. Who would even debate it?

That's not true and I don't know how you don't know this. Games are divided up by operating systems and consoles used to have backwards compatibility as a selling feature.
 
Go to PC Picker and put something together at $200-$300 and it will be better than any last-gen console. The PS3 has the equivalent of 2005's Geforce 7800 which has long been surpassed by many low-tier GPUs. Here was a recent deal for Radeon 6670 at $30; that will run circles around the last gen consoles. Before you say "well, that's sale price and unfair," sales like these are so common and constant that you can pick up something like this almost year-round. In a span of a couple of weeks, you will encounter enough parts on sale to put together an impressive little machine.


Here's one build for less than $300
but using only MSRP prices. Depending on your specific build and constant sales that pop up on parts, much better is doable. The biggest cost is really just the Windows license which may soon become a non-issue if SteamOS really takes off. Keep in mind that the $80~ or so for such a license is a fixed cost that will last years and much less than the console lifespan-long costs of XBL and PSN.



You made a stupid, broad claim and it was refuted. So now you're saying that in posts that highlight the advantages of PC gaming over console gaming, it MUST be explicitly pointed out to you that not "every single [PC] game runs flawlessly at 60fps and 1080p" ... when no one even implied such a thing? WHY? So the discussion can be "fair?" We're not babies here.

It's a moot point; 1080p/60fps is dependent on one's hardware and the game itself, hence the reason it doesn't need to be said each and every time. And again, WHY? That's not even the focal point of this argument and you're misdirecting discussion to a claim nobody has made (nor denied by not explicitly stating). You're deflecting the actual arguing points in this thread and baiting others into a non-argument with the use of a sweeping statement that is meant to portray PC gamers as deceiving individuals who overstate PC gaming performance.

The discussion we're having here is: can a gaming PC be built for about the same cost as a console and can it match or exceed the graphical performance of similar games on consoles? Yes. Performance-wise, PCs are a better value in 2014 and the value gap will continue to widen over this year and the following one to the point that there will be no doubt and Gamespot's article will become unnecessary and an unequivocal "duh." This thread will soon be pointless. For the first time ever, the price/performance gap between PCs and newly released consoles has practically vanished. This is what the thread is all about. The defensive folk are just arguing personal preferences irrelevant to facts.
Well colour me impressed. That is pretty cool.
Guess the only things consoles do better is the convenience of having to just pop a disc in and play.
 
I factored the used games because its something the PC doesn't have anymore. Its an advantage that the consoles have exclusively I think. What I meant to say was that the used games offsets some of the cost of console games.
Psn plus example was mainly referring to PS 3.
On ps4 I find it difficult to justify at best.

I agree, consoles do have more flexibility for buying used games. As for PSN+ you won't get an argument against it from me as far as value. Sony is covering the PS3, Vita and now the PS4 and PS4 games will get better over time. Microsoft can barely handle the XBox 360 with freebies and so far I don't think any XBox One games. However you get to keep the games even if you stop subscribing. On the PC we still see better sales for digital goods. This is an area consoles severely lack because they don't want to upset retailers.
 
The whole "High-end PCs won't be able to run games in the future" thing is a bit of a myth.

The 8800GTX was released at the same time as the PS3 (November 2006), and continues to play modern games at higher settings even in 2014. Not to mention you could max out most games at 1080p up until until around 2010.

Examples using an 8800GT (weaker than 2006's 8800GTX), an Intel E6750 Dual Core (Roughly the same as 2006's E6700), and 3GB of ram:

Tomb Raider 2013
1080p Medium Settings
35 FPS
http://youtu.be/Nuo6LvfJmKs

Splinter Cell: Black List
1080p Low Settings
25-45 FPS
http://youtu.be/3AzSRVgtdjo

Far Cry 3
1080p Low Settings
35 FPS
http://youtu.be/-xEssrSKHVQ

Medal of Honor: Warfighter
1080p Low Settings
30 FPS
http://youtu.be/qQq9z-tMbOw

Keep in mind that an actual 8800GTX would be able to run these games a lot better, and that these graphical settings could be raised by dropping the resolution to 720p.

The PS3 was more powerful for 2006, than the PS4 was for 2013. Based on past experience, a computer that's more powerful than the PS4 today will continue to play games better in the future. A computer that was more powerful than the PS3 in 2006 cost a significant amount of money, whereas a computer that matches or exceeds the PS4/XBone specs can be had for $500-600. New things like AMD's mantel mean that future PC titles will benefit from even tighter optimizations.

I don't recommend getting a ridiculous $400 budget PC, but the current gen consoles are definitely underpowered compared to last gen.
 
Keep in mind, too, that current cross-platform games on consoles perform best on a PlayStation 4, which currently sells for $100 less than an Xbox One. If you were to try to build a gaming PC for $400 to $450, our experience has taught us that you would end up with a machine that can't compete with either next-gen console.
XBox One is around PS4 price now as every Target store here in Western NY has the Titanfall bundle for $450, with other retailers offering it as low as $425 with 12 months of gold.

Of course you wouldn't have the added PC benefits but I prefer my couch gaming and not fussing with building and keeping a PC running. I know its not that complicated, and I know consoles are getting to that annoyance with title updates, but its more complicated than a console.
 
Games need to install, update, patch, etc just like on pcs now.

Who is debating that? You said on consoles you no longer can pop in the disc and play, which on PS4 is factually incorrect. You can play while the game is installing and patches are installed during stand by.
 
The whole "High-end PCs won't be able to run games in the future" thing is a bit of a myth.

The 8800GTX was released at the same time as the PS3 (November 2006), and continues to play modern games at higher settings even in 2014. Not to mention you could max out most games at 1080p up until until around 2010.

Examples using an 8800GT (weaker than 2006's 8800GTX), an Intel E6750 Dual Core (Roughly the same as 2006's E6700), and 3GB of ram:

Tomb Raider 2013
1080p Medium Settings
35 FPS
http://youtu.be/Nuo6LvfJmKs

Splinter Cell: Black List
1080p Low Settings
25-45 FPS
http://youtu.be/3AzSRVgtdjo

Far Cry 3
1080p Low Settings
35 FPS
http://youtu.be/-xEssrSKHVQ

Medal of Honor: Warfighter
1080p Low Settings
30 FPS
http://youtu.be/qQq9z-tMbOw

Keep in mind that an actual 8800GTX would be able to run these games a lot better, and that these graphical settings could be raised by dropping the resolution to 720p.

The PS3 was more powerful for 2006, than the PS4 was for 2013. Based on past experience, a computer that's more powerful than the PS4 today will continue to play games better in the future. A computer that was more powerful than the PS3 in 2006 cost a significant amount of money, whereas a computer that matches or exceeds the PS4/XBone specs can be had for $500-600. New things like AMD's mantel mean that future PC titles will benefit from even tighter optimizations.

I don't recommend getting a ridiculous $400 budget PC, but the current gen consoles are definitely underpowered compared to last gen.

Looks like a nice list. Might need to save it for whenever people bring up 2006 / 2007 PCs in the future.
 
good luck running The Witcher 3 on a dual core CPU

/very OT asynch/parallel development rant:

You'll be surprised.

I'm not going to lecture about the costs of asynchronous/parallel performance but you're making an extremely faulty assumption. What I assume you're doing is looking at the PS4 and saying okay 8 * 1.6 = 12.8. Then you look at the intel build and see 2 * 3.2 = 6.4. 12.8/6.4 = 2 therefore a whopping 200% better performance! That's a very naive calculation. If we had a system with ten million cores operating at a comparable 5mhz clock rate we'd have a 1,000,000 * 0.005 = 50,000ghz system or about 400,000% faster than the PS4. In reality it'd struggle to keep up with a standard single 3.2ghz processor for most common tasks. Of course if you wanted to multiply a million by a million static matrices then it'd be boom and zoom.... but if you wanted to perform the standard and synch heavy tasks in games like physics, ai, etc then it'd be left in the dust.

Respawn has already said Titanfall is CPU limited and the CPU on the XBone is a bit beefier than the PS4 by the naive calculation, and in any case is going to be extremely comparable. Lo and behold - the little 2 core CPU is outpeforming the XBone running the game at 1080p/50fps vs 792p/all_over_the_place on the XBone. I've no doubt if they rendered at 792p as per the XBone it would be pushing towards 100fps. Lots of slow cores are complete bitch to work with from a developer point of view. Taken to absurdity, as per my example, they become impossible to work with. And I do mean impossible. A project I was familiar with was TRIPS. It was an in development research project aimed at developing a massive core - single chip product capable of performance in the THz while performing in chip parallelization - basically the goal being to turn turn the naive core*power calculation into something actually meaningful. The long and short of it is that even though it had many of the top people in hardware research and development working on it - it was a failure.
 
/very OT asynch/parallel development rant:

You'll be surprised.

I'm not going to lecture about the costs of asynchronous/parallel performance but you're making an extremely faulty assumption. What I assume you're doing is looking at the PS4 and saying okay 8 * 1.6 = 12.8. Then you look at the intel build and see 2 * 3.2 = 6.4. 12.8/6.4 = 2 therefore a whopping 200% better performance! That's a very naive calculation. If we had a system with ten million cores operating at a comparable 5mhz clock rate we'd have a 1,000,000 * 0.005 = 50,000ghz system or about 400,000% faster than the PS4. In reality it'd struggle to keep up with a standard single 3.2ghz processor for most common tasks. Of course if you wanted to multiply a million by a million static matrices then it'd be boom and zoom.... but if you wanted to perform the standard and synch heavy tasks in games like physics, ai, etc then it'd be left in the dust.

Respawn has already said Titanfall is CPU limited and the CPU on the XBone is a bit beefier than the PS4 by the naive calculation, and in any case is going to be extremely comparable. Lo and behold - the little 2 core CPU is outpeforming the XBone running the game at 1080p/50fps vs 792p/all_over_the_place on the XBone. I've no doubt if they rendered at 792p as per the XBone it would be pushing towards 100fps. Lots of slow cores are complete bitch to work with from a developer point of view. Taken to absurdity, as per my example, they become impossible to work with. And I do mean impossible. A project I was familiar with was TRIPS. It was an in development research project aimed at developing a massive core - single chip product capable of performance in the THz while performing in chip parallelization - basically the goal being to turn turn the naive core*power calculation into something actually meaningful. The long and short of it is that even though it had many of the top people in hardware research and development working on it - it was a failure.

On the topic of CPUs with "super cores", is it inevitable to move towards more cores, or could something like very highly-clocked enthusiast dual cores be a useful thing?
 
On the topic of CPUs with "super cores", is it inevitable to move towards more cores, or could something like very highly-clocked enthusiast dual cores be a useful thing?

All the big and small players I know of are moving towards more cores instead of more performance per core. Currently there really seems to be no other way, at least not in the forseeable future and with current semiconductor technology.

That said, for gaming it's not yet that bad as Dire's post may make it sound. I've heard of developers saying they'd prefer 8 medium performance cores over 4 high performance ones (that would be, say, 50% faster per core). Without a doubt there will be problems though at some point.
 
The whole "High-end PCs won't be able to run games in the future" thing is a bit of a myth.

The 8800GTX was released at the same time as the PS3 (November 2006), and continues to play modern games at higher settings even in 2014. Not to mention you could max out most games at 1080p up until until around 2010.

Examples using an 8800GT (weaker than 2006's 8800GTX), an Intel E6750 Dual Core (Roughly the same as 2006's E6700), and 3GB of ram:

Tomb Raider 2013
1080p Medium Settings
35 FPS
http://youtu.be/Nuo6LvfJmKs

Splinter Cell: Black List
1080p Low Settings
25-45 FPS
http://youtu.be/3AzSRVgtdjo

Far Cry 3
1080p Low Settings
35 FPS
http://youtu.be/-xEssrSKHVQ

Medal of Honor: Warfighter
1080p Low Settings
30 FPS
http://youtu.be/qQq9z-tMbOw

Keep in mind that an actual 8800GTX would be able to run these games a lot better, and that these graphical settings could be raised by dropping the resolution to 720p.

The PS3 was more powerful for 2006, than the PS4 was for 2013. Based on past experience, a computer that's more powerful than the PS4 today will continue to play games better in the future. A computer that was more powerful than the PS3 in 2006 cost a significant amount of money, whereas a computer that matches or exceeds the PS4/XBone specs can be had for $500-600. New things like AMD's mantel mean that future PC titles will benefit from even tighter optimizations.

I don't recommend getting a ridiculous $400 budget PC, but the current gen consoles are definitely underpowered compared to last gen.

Ok there is 2 MASSIVE things wrong with this comparison..and I hate getting drawn into platform wars.

But the PS3 is doing all these with 208mb of system ram and 256mb of Video Ram, you have the above running on a machine with 512mb of video ram plus 3gb of system (say 1gb + for game) apples and oranges, chop this down to PS3 levels you would not get a loading screen..ridiculous comparison.

It is horses for courses, this comparison proved that the PS4 is a great deal and you CANNOT get the same performance out of the box for the same money, but for a few hundred more you can, it is a no brainer and not worth the argument.

Everything else is just subjective and there are big pro's and cons for each with both sides pulling in arguments to defend their platform of choice..who knows why.

I have both high spec PC and both Consoles, I love games and the exclusives are a big draw for me. Backward compatibility is coming to both PS4 and X1 in time, I had it on PS3 and 360 as much as I needed (IMOP it is overhyped but I understand some people like it) but by its very open nature and modular design a PC can do this far easier (although not always without incident). Why is this argument raging for so long?
 
you CANNOT get the same performance out of the box for the same money, but for a few hundred more you can, it is a no brainer and not worth the argument.

An AMD 750K, 8GB of memory and a 260X would perform about as well as a console. You can get that for about the price of a console too.
 
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