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[KXVXII9X]

People have no fantasy at all, they just need to look at AAA cinema quality CG to know what the future is gonna bring.

they think this is near close to photorealism or close to the endgame when stuff like avatar 2 or the lion king live action exist.

Right? I'm always dumbfounded when people say this is peak realism or there isn't much further to go. Lighting is still very flat in most games; animations are severely rigid and robotic in most games. Even Nintendo has most beat in that department. Physics and AI are scarcely implemented. They add a lot to realism. Geometry and texture detail is also as inconsistent as ever. Games still have a lot of pop-in and changing LOD.

Even both the games above are still stylized to a degree, which is what makes them look as good as they do. I think DokeV has some of the best open world environment I have seen so far, and Project M looks amazing, but things like proper cloth physics are still not implemented which gives some parts away. For all the push for realism, it still doesn't hold a candle to being inside a game like in VR. Half Life Alyx is probably the most realistic game in terms of tricking your brain. I'm sure we will see better visuals for flat gaming in the near future though.

 

[KXVXII9X]

It is a bit disappointing that a game like shenmue has not progressed to much.

I loved the 2nd life style simulation thing shenmue had. Going to work and working everyday, then going back home, u ate and earned money, it felt immersive and like experiencing someone else's life.

I suppose RDR2 did a lot of things like this where you had to hunt food, build house in mini qte mini game, transport your family, do farm chores etc
But they are still very similar to shenmue in there execution the tasks are not more complex then shenmues.

I was hoping last gen that instead of just a big story based games following the latest trends that a Dev would go smaller and really try making a game extremely detailed. Less limitations really.

It's like games are like a simpler form of the matrix, with a lot more rules. I want a game with less rules.
I guess it's incredible hard, even making a game which is just a person in a average living room and you can do anything apart from harm yourself or get naked. Even picking up objects and smashing them then piling up the debris and making a little mound of broken plate would be very hard. So maybe limitations like that would be a good limitation. Maybe an open game where there is a fully functioning economy most NPCs have jobs, if you kill all the garbage pick up guys, rubbish starts mounting up etc
It's kind of depressing when we think about how little progress the industry has made in terms of simulation. Most games are still orchestrated theme park rides.
I guess VR could help in some ways on this aspect, recently I've been playing cooking simulator, and i was quite impressed by how well it simulated the feeling of cooking in a real commercial kitchen and how many different ingredients and cooking methods there are, however the interface is still not very realistic and so are the visuals, VR could help make some actions more natural, but there needs to be a lot more work in the animations hit detections and visuals, and no publisher is going spend 10s of millions on a cooking simulator

I have been thinking of the lifestyle simulation thing too. I haven't played Shenmue, although it is on my list, but after playing Yakuza Like a Dragon and Persona 5, I realized just how immersive adding these elements into the games are.

I have an issue with open worlds being described as they are if all you do is combat. They feel more like a large playground instead of an actual, functioning breathing world. I want non-combat aspects to be just as important. Just walking through the districts in Yakuza was fun. Each place had something to do outside of combat. I loved visiting restaurants and shops. They weren't copy and pasted and very detailed. Depending on how I grew my personality, I could go to different places and access this one casino like place. If I was low on money, I could stop and work at my business and try to recruit actual NPC found in the city. It made me feel like I had a true place in the world, and that it was somewhat dynamic.

Also, ever since playing Deus Ex Human Revolution back in 2011, I have been wanting more games to go the smaller, but more detailed direction. When another game touts how big it is, I groan. Gamers feel that makes things more immersive, but it doesn't. I would love a game that just takes place in a single large district of a city or a small town where almost every building could be explorable and detailed. I would love for actual environmental interactions and consequences. Like killing in front of or making a mess of a business in town would have them either start charging more the next time they set up or ban you for a certain amount of time. NPC would have routines and the setting would change throughout the course of the game. Gameplay would be varied between combat and other non-combative activities. Even games appreciated the detective stuff in Astral Chain since it broke up the gameplay and made it varied.

VR has been my biggest hope for big change within the industry!

 

[Sosokrates]

I have been thinking of the lifestyle simulation thing too. I haven't played Shenmue, although it is on my list, but after playing Yakuza Like a Dragon and Persona 5, I realized just how immersive adding these elements into the games are.

I have an issue with open worlds being described as they are if all you do is combat. They feel more like a large playground instead of an actual, functioning breathing world. I want non-combat aspects to be just as important. Just walking through the districts in Yakuza was fun. Each place had something to do outside of combat. I loved visiting restaurants and shops. They weren't copy and pasted and very detailed. Depending on how I grew my personality, I could go to different places and access this one casino like place. If I was low on money, I could stop and work at my business and try to recruit actual NPC found in the city. It made me feel like I had a true place in the world, and that it was somewhat dynamic.

Also, ever since playing Deus Ex Human Revolution back in 2011, I have been wanting more games to go the smaller, but more detailed direction. When another game touts how big it is, I groan. Gamers feel that makes things more immersive, but it doesn't. I would love a game that just takes place in a single large district of a city or a small town where almost every building could be explorable and detailed. I would love for actual environmental interactions and consequences. Like killing in front of or making a mess of a business in town would have them either start charging more the next time they set up or ban you for a certain amount of time. NPC would have routines and the setting would change throughout the course of the game. Gameplay would be varied between combat and other non-combative activities. Even games appreciated the detective stuff in Astral Chain since it broke up the gameplay and made it varied.

VR has been my biggest hope for big change within the industry!

Great post. Which Yakuza game do you think is best in the life simulation aspect?

 

[samoilaaa]

im just curious what kind of evolving are you talking about

like if you were a dev what kind of changes would you make to game design ?

 

[KXVXII9X]

Great post. Which Yakuza game do you think is best in the life simulation aspect?

Thanks!

I've only played Like a Dragon and played a little of Kiwami so I don't have much reference. I think Yakuza Like a Dragon is the biggest and most expansive yet. It also seems to some more cues from Persona 5.

There are multiple side activities. Multiple arcades (you can play real Sega games within a Sega game), and casino, dozens upon dozens of restaurants, business that you run and manage, social links, personality traits, engaging side stories that are varied and add to the worldbuilding as well as party member side stories that improve social link.

Still, I would say Persona 5 has more of a life simulation aspect.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Naturally. If the first thing people see when they go on to try a game is a bunch things trying to get their money, they'll be put off.

You have to be smart about the timing, get people into the game first, develop an habit in them. Then, slowly, start implementing egregious methods of monetization, trickling them down one after the other, once people already developed an habit of playing the game and have a harder time letting go. Its all part of the "perfecting and refining" of monetization i spoke of before.

Lol, so let me get this straight.

Fortnite was successful because they baited people from Sept 2017 - Dec 2017 with no Battle Pass. That's um...why it's been so dominant for so long.

Knockout City, Halo Infinite, and Roller Champions were NOT successful because they had their monetization model in place on day 1.

Apex Legends and Warzone were NOT successful because they had their monetization models running at launch.

Naraka Bladepoint was NOT successful because they had their stuff going from day one.

GTA Online was successful because...le sigh.

Sorry bud, this ain't it.

 

[Shadowstar39]

This is why 4k was a mistake. Its too early. They are just trying to sell displays. Thing is a 1080p set is perfectly fine for most people. It should of went another gen at 1080p /1440p then 4k next gen when we have cheaper storage. a 2tb ssd is still crazy expensive. Games that are 80-150gb are not much larger then ones at 7gb in 360/ps3 era or 24gb in ps4 era.

 

[Guilty_AI]

Lol, so let me get this straight.

Fortnite was successful because they baited people from Sept 2017 - Dec 2017 with no Battle Pass. That's um...why it's been so dominant for so long.

Knockout City, Halo Infinite, and Roller Champions were NOT successful because they had their monetization model in place on day 1.

Apex Legends and Warzone were NOT successful because they had their monetization models running at launch.

Naraka Bladepoint was NOT successful because they had their stuff going from day one.

GTA Online was successful because...le sigh.

Sorry bud, this ain't it.

lol no mate. It ain't that simple. There are plenty of other factors at play like how you implement these things, marketing, amount of content, etc.
What i'm saying is, your idea that some of these games were overwhelmingly successful because they were doing something "revolutionary" (which i already clearly disproved) is wrong.

Think about this, why does Candy Crush makes +1 billion dollars a year? Did this dumb match 3 game somehow secretly revolutionized game design?

 

[Hypereides]

The people defending todays games arguments are everything looks better.. they just don't get it. Its like talking to a brick wall.

You just gotta accept that these people represent the majority of gamers apparently. I've seen regular posters on GAF say something like how the new God of war looks "ugly"/"bad" (paraphrase).

I have no interest in that game, btw. But, its far from bad looking.

 

[StateofMajora]

The comparison below represents a generation apart, PS4 on left/PS5 on right.

That is the definition of diminishing returns and why the gen to gen jump, has been minimizing.

That's cross gen.

I agree with the thread premise, just saying.

As someone else said, the gaming industry has become very very top down, business oriented, instead of a passionate, blossoming industry.

All of Sony's studios, I think all of them but Housemarque, off the top of my head have fallen into this. It's just a bunch of garbage award bait.

And regarding physics, we now have better cpus, but they're not as good as most think (low clocked, mobile zen 2 is waaaay weaker than something like 12900k or 5800x3D. even a 5600x is much better tbh), and pushing for higher fps eats a lot of that up. And then you have the extra manpower needed for more destructible environments, and yeah you're not going to be seeing as much advancement as you should.

 

[StateofMajora]

This is why 4k was a mistake. Its too early. They are just trying to sell displays. Thing is a 1080p set is perfectly fine for most people. It should of went another gen at 1080p /1440p then 4k next gen when we have cheaper storage. a 2tb ssd is still crazy expensive. Games that are 80-150gb are not much larger then ones at 7gb in 360/ps3 era or 24gb in ps4 era.

It's not devs fault, they aren't the ones who flooded the market with 4k tvs.

That said, 4k was honestly needed for games. 1080p either had too many jaggies even with MSAA, or blurry as hell with TAA.

Solution is if any of this bother you is to move on to PC. I mean, all of them but Nintendo have, why not you?

 

[Shadowstar39]

Let them. They are paying the bills and we can get the games they pay for full price for part of subscription cost only 1-2 years later.

I don't want subscriptions , enough of them with netflix subdivided now into 20 different streaming services, same with games. I won't support that shit.
Now if you said wait a year for it to be on sale for you to own for $5-10 on steam or psn then yeah, I am all for that. Not this rental crap.

 

[Shadowstar39]

It's not devs fault, they aren't the ones who flooded the market with 4k tvs.

That said, 4k was honestly needed for games. 1080p either had too many jaggies even with MSAA, or blurry as hell with TAA.

Solution is if any of this bother you is to move on to PC. I mean, all of them but Nintendo have, why not you?

lol, i am on pc. Writing this on a pc with a 1080p display and 3060ti card. I am fine with my 27in 1080p graphics. Also fine with my switch and steam deck. Good games that are fun over graphics all the time. Not saying good graphics aren't nice, but they aren't everything.

 

[Haggard]

Two console generations of pushback (X360/PS3 and XBone/PS4) over upscaling, and now just about everyone is sucking on the teat of GPU vendors selling it as the next greatest thing since sliced bread. Hypocritical much. Take your ass and suck on that PR cock some more. Just remember, that is not milk you are swallowing.

How hard does one have to try to pack so much stupidity into so few sentences....

 

[ksdixon]

That is the definition of diminishing returns and why the gen to gen jump, has been minimizing.

Surely that's a meme photo of HFW, right? How many years later does HFW happen after HZD? This is like looking into the faces of a mother and daughter.

 

[Wooxsvan]

not wrong in the slightest. Its not 1 single reason but a few. my thoughts:

1. Math/physics. look at the percent increases early on in cpu/gpu/ram jumps and then look at them now. you cant fight the lack of technical innovation to then allow such jumps in world size and graphical capability.
9X CPU
PS1 33mhz
PS2 299mhz

16X system RAM and 4X in video RAM
PS1 2mb, 1mb
PS2 32mb, 4mb

4.5X GPU (but ps2 had way more programmable capability)
PS1 33mhz
PS2 147mhz


2. Time/Tools. It takes more and more artists or better tools to create vast worlds and detailed art models to flesh out these areas.

 

[TheUndeadGamer]

This is why 4k was a mistake. Its too early. They are just trying to sell displays. Thing is a 1080p set is perfectly fine for most people. It should of went another gen at 1080p /1440p then 4k next gen when we have cheaper storage. a 2tb ssd is still crazy expensive. Games that are 80-150gb are not much larger then ones at 7gb in 360/ps3 era or 24gb in ps4 era.

I think 1440p upscale to 4K or checkerboxed or something else would have been fine. No need to push true 4K in games.

Edit: Except for indie games or remasters. That should be fine.

 

[Eddie-Griffin]

Op cherrypicked a game from a series that never had destructible environments in real scale (and in a different genre from his example that did) and went from no games with DE since 2007, to only a few, to only a handful, and now it's "not enoughhhhhh" and people are still taking this thread seriously? There's weren't even that many games with DE before 2007.

While you are right in that there exists destructible environments in games since 2007/2015, it is a small minority relative to games that don't have it.

This doesn't mean anything, this applies to before 2007 as well, developers who had it have made games without it, you and the OP seem to think DE is some simple thing that should have been universally normalized yet what's actually happening is that certain genres or game developers are assuming for different targets and they just so happen not to involve DE. They are instead focusing on other graphical features, Ray tracing, Frame Rate and Resolution, or all 3.

Now if we look at games by generation, rather than decade, we can still see stark differences. I don't think we really see what each gen brings till the end of the generation but let's look.

Pong


Atari 2600


Nintendo Entertainment System


Super Nintendo


Playstation


PS2


PS3


PS4


PS5 thus far


Definitely some diminishing returns in the last decade and a half, but the generation is young

There's many problems with these comparisons, but the main issue here is saying that the last decade and a half (15 years, that's 2007 you have to be insane) without even considering the technical achievements made from that point.

the first problem is that Beyond two Souls image isn't even the PS3 version, but even then it didn't look that good on the PS3 when compared to what came on the PS4 and PS5, it was filled with baked in graphical effects, and it greatly restricted movement and play area and it was filled with the bring with baked shadows and lighting and QTE's, it was made to look pretty to the average person who wasn't paying attention but the actual tech behind the game wasn't that impressive at all.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Skimming the YT video, it's amazing how snake oily it is.

On the other hand, the marketing department at my company will try to come up with a product based on market research, sell it for a good price so Walmart and other retailers accept it, add some tv ads and support it with weekly promos. Add it up all up and hope for the best hoping the consumer comes back to buy it again 4 months later as a repeat purchase.

 

[SlimySnake]

Surely that's a meme photo of HFW, right? How many years later does HFW happen after HZD? This is like looking into the faces of a mother and daughter.

It's real but that character model was for a level that was created for a demo only. that mission never actually appears in the final game. the area is there but none of its cutscenes and enemy encounters are there. they seem to have either changed her character model for the final game after the backlash (i guess bitching works) or this was simply a place holder for a vertical slice because in the final game she looks a lot like she did in the original teaser of the game.

This is her in the final game. still a tiny bit on the chubby side but not the monstrosity we saw in the gameplay reveal.

 

[TheGecko]

Right? I'm always dumbfounded when people say this is peak realism or there isn't much further to go. Lighting is still very flat in most games; animations are severely rigid and robotic in most games. Even Nintendo has most beat in that department. Physics and AI are scarcely implemented. They add a lot to realism. Geometry and texture detail is also as inconsistent as ever. Games still have a lot of pop-in and changing LOD.

Even both the games above are still stylized to a degree, which is what makes them look as good as they do. I think DokeV has some of the best open world environment I have seen so far, and Project M looks amazing, but things like proper cloth physics are still not implemented which gives some parts away. For all the push for realism, it still doesn't hold a candle to being inside a game like in VR. Half Life Alyx is probably the most realistic game in terms of tricking your brain. I'm sure we will see better visuals for flat gaming in the near future though.

And again it's all back to mah graphics.

90% of the replies in here back up my first reply.

 

[ksdixon]

It's real but that character model was for a level that was created for a demo only. that mission never actually appears in the final game. the area is there but none of its cutscenes and enemy encounters are there. they seem to have either changed her character model for the final game after the backlash (i guess bitching works) or this was simply a place holder for a vertical slice because in the final game she looks a lot like she did in the original teaser of the game.

This is her in the final game. still a tiny bit on the chubby side but not the monstrosity we saw in the gameplay reveal.

That still photo final version is better than the badly recieved verticle slice version.... but that's a pretty fine derp face on the gif there lol!

This is why I don't like Sony Secrecy. With some backlash, we get a better Aloy model for HFW. Had ND shown-off TLOU P1 earlier they could have recieved the feedback for negating TLOU2 movement (at least combat dodge, if not the wider prone/jump movement which might neccessetate more excessive level re-design), they could have added it as a toggle at least.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

lol no mate. It ain't that simple. There are plenty of other factors at play like how you implement these things, marketing, amount of content, etc.
What i'm saying is, your idea that some of these games were overwhelmingly successful because they were doing something "revolutionary" (which i already clearly disproved) is wrong.

Think about this, why does Candy Crush makes +1 billion dollars a year? Did this dumb match 3 game somehow secretly revolutionized game design?

It's funny. Today, a fellow gaffer posted how Multiverses is crashing in player retention.

Me: "Another [sports multiplayer] dies in the era of [narrative multiplayer]...shocking."

You: "Well, it's because their Battle Pass wasn't perfectly designed."

Gameplay will always be king in multiplayer.

 

[Guilty_AI]

It's funny. Today, a fellow gaffer posted how Multiverses is crashing in player retention.

Me: "Another [sports multiplayer] dies in the era of [narrative multiplayer]...shocking."

Well, why CS ain't dying then? Or DOTA 2? Meanwhile, why did so many BR attempts failed, like Ring of Elysium? Not to mention many games with amazing multiplayer modes that fit perfectly into your "narrative MP" description that never seem to take off, or remain ultra niche when compared with big grosser "sports multuplayers" like LoL? Why did GTA online became one of the most popular MP games out there while Red Dead Online, despite following the same formula and being made by the same people, burned to the ground?

 

[ChorizoPicozo]

2 words:

Virtual Reality.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Well, why CS ain't dying then? Or DOTA 2? Meanwhile, why did so many BR attempts failed, like Ring of Elysium? Not to mention many games with amazing multiplayer modes that fit perfectly into your "narrative MP" description that never seem to take off, or remain ultra niche when compared with big grosser "sports multuplayers" like LoL.

Because trends and eras ALWAYS look like this...

When the Model A released, there were still huge pockets of the population buying horses. As time progresses, those pockets become smaller and smaller until horse ownership becomes near 0.

Now that we're in the narrative multiplayer era, we're obviously going to see a few sports multiplayer thrive.

But good luck to sports multiplayer as we get the next waves of narrative multiplayer over the next 5 - 10 years. It's kinda like believing in film after digital cameras eclipses traditional camera sales. We ain't going backwards.

PS: 95% of games fail. Clearly a large number of narrative multiplayer games are going to fail too. The industry is still figuring things out.

 

[Red Crayon Aristocrat]

Another example of this is DOOM in 1993 and DOOM 3 in 2004, just 11 years later.

If we stayed on that same path games today should be photorealistic with AI characters you can hold an actual conversation with.

Elaborate a bit more that comment?

Fashion, music, movies, TV, technology, you name it, everything seems like it started to slow way down post 2007.

In 2000 most people still watched movies on VHS on bubble screen CRTs and owning a cell phone or computer was still somewhat rare, by 2010 everyone had an HDTV, everyone had a cell phone and everyone had high speed internet access.

Now it's 2022, your smart phone is still just a smart phone, your HDTV is still just an HDTV, there's improvements of course but it's not a quantum leap like before.

I remember 2007 very well, we've slowed way down culturally, the biggest changes have simply been the insane political attitudes and other mass hysterias that have gripped people, all that shit is new, but there's been a lot of stagnation.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Another example of this is DOOM in 1993 and DOOM 3 in 2004, just 11 years later.

If we stayed on that same path games today should be photorealistic with AI characters you can hold an actual conversation with.



Fashion, music, movies, TV, technology, you name it, everything seems like it started to slow way down post 2007.

In 2000 most people still watched movies on VHS on bubble screen CRTs and owning a cell phone or computer was still somewhat rare, by 2010 everyone had an HDTV, everyone had a cell phone and everyone had high speed internet access.

Now it's 2022, your smart phone is still just a smart phone, your HDTV is still just an HDTV, there's improvements of course but it's not a quantum leap like before.

I remember 2007 very well, we've slowed way down culturally, the biggest changes have simply been the insane political attitudes and other mass hysterias that have gripped people, all that shit is new, but there's been a lot of stagnation.

Since you put it that way with some tech products I agree. TVs, phones and internet havent really changed much at all. it's been refinements and speed boost.

Will any of these products do a giant leap in design or feature set in the future again? Who knows. Maybe for these 3 kinds of products (gaming included) have hit that breaking point where there isnt much more to innovate.

It's like microwaves or toaster ovens. The ones they sell now are going to be more powerful and it probably cooks more evenly. But comparing to the ones we owned in the 80s and early 90s, they really havent changed at all. You got some additional feature buttons on the microwave, and the toaster oven has a crumb catcher and convection cooking setting, but the rest of it is basically the same thing. One thing that is true though is modern day models look better than the shitty looking ones we had.

 

[S0ULZB0URNE]

GTFOH...

 

[ResetEraVetVIP]

I 1000% agree.

I want gaming to be cheaper not expensive. I would be fine with ps3 or xbox one grade graphics for another 10 to 15 years if it means 100 dollar consoles and 40 dollar games.

Game development uses to be easy. We used to get so many options.


Now it is all about graphics and we get 1 or 2 great games a year.

Hell no. What the hell?

 

[Guilty_AI]

Because trends and eras ALWAYS look like this...

When the Model A released, there were still huge pockets of the population buying horses. As time progresses, those pockets become smaller and smaller until horse ownership becomes near 0.

Now that we're in the narrative multiplayer era, we're obviously going to see a few sports multiplayer thrive.

Except this era of "narrative multiplayer" - at least as the "thing of the moment" - has already come and gone. I told didn't i? This concept isn't new. It saw massive popularity in the late 90s and early 2000s, then started losing popularity while the very same e-sports you're talking about started growing massively in its place.

You're very mistaken in thinking the new popular things are always an evolution of what came before. They're just trends. Soon enough BRs and Survivals (and i won't call them "narrative multiplayer" because, in this sense, they pale when put against a lot of older or nicher stuff) will start fading out of mainstream and something else will replace them. Will it be "better"? Maybe, maybe not. Could be MMOs again, could be driving sims, could be business management games , if it'll be better or not its just a matter of opinions.

Maybe it'll come the day, 5 - 10 years from now, where you'll be the one arguing with someone about how much better multiplayer was in your time, how great Fortnite and those surival games on steam were, and how whatever is trendy at the time is step backwards.

PS: 95% of games fail. Clearly a large number of narrative multiplayer games are going to fail too. The industry is still figuring things out.

My, maybe thats why Multiverses failed too? Clearly a large number of e-sport games are going to fail too after all. We do have another massively popular fighter who happened to be the inspiration for this one, so maybe the general formula wasn't the problem

 

[Marvel14]

There's no such thing as dimishing returns in the gaming industry, it's a lie they want you to swallow to believe they cannot give you something better. If there was something as true as "diminishing returns" there wouldn't be CGI trailers as they would look like the game and viceversa.

Your evidence doesn't really support your point. CGI trailers are higher fidelity than the game but that doesn't mean that the fidelity gap between cgi and the game is unchanged. Also is the graphics jump in a cgi trailer between 2012 to 2022 as big as between 2002 and 2012?

 

[ResetEraVetVIP]

I believe that this is where RT is a double edged sword.

On the one hand, it truly adds a new level of immersion to the games when fully added and turned on. On the other, it forces a regression in up-scaling to maintain performance. DLSS and FSR are steps backward if you ask me. Its like a stop gap because AMD nor Nvidia cannot offer up solutions to truly push RT or 4k resolution so their PR teams have been reprogramming the masses to accept up-scaling as a new technology.

Sometimes I am flabbergasted at how the masses are so easily manipulated into conformity.

Wrong, sometimes upscaled images are better than native 4k…research it..

 

[coffinbirth]

Wrong, sometimes upscaled images are better than native 4k…research it..

Nonsense.

 

[GymWolf]

That still photo final version is better than the badly recieved verticle slice version.... but that's a pretty fine derp face on the gif there lol!

This is why I don't like Sony Secrecy. With some backlash, we get a better Aloy model for HFW. Had ND shown-off TLOU P1 earlier they could have recieved the feedback for negating TLOU2 movement (at least combat dodge, if not the wider prone/jump movement which might neccessetate more excessive level re-design), they could have added it as a toggle at least.

Lol you think they didn't included dodge and prone for lack of backlash and not because this was a cheap, lazy remake to begin with?
They knew about the backlash even without showing nothing unless they are completely moron and clueless, they just don't care dude.

And you didn't get a better aloy model for the backlash, sony and guerrilla give 2 fucks about people who want beatiful people in their game, i mean look hfw, there is like 2 decent looking female characters in the whole game and sony is famous for making their real life actors uglier (at least the females).

 

[Haggard]

Nonsense.

Someone has slept through the last 3 years of technical development.....

 

[chromatic9]

Yes it's true and has been pointed out before. Around 2007 was really exciting with Crysis, Grid and Red Faction. As a racing game fan I was looking forward to more advancements in damage but the following games were worse and others avoided any or had easy paint scuffs. GT finally tried years later with laughable melting cars. Crysis games lost their physics. Other games completely avoided interactivity and physics for many years. We had more in interactivity MGS2 and GTA San Andreas for a long time on PS2 than on PS3/PS4 games. There were exciting cover mechanics in shooters back then.

It's very much been static cardboard worlds, simple mechanics and a lot of effort in put into cutscenes and mocap.

 

[TheBROgamer]

This is why 4k was a mistake. Its too early. They are just trying to sell displays. Thing is a 1080p set is perfectly fine for most people. It should of went another gen at 1080p /1440p then 4k next gen when we have cheaper storage. a 2tb ssd is still crazy expensive. Games that are 80-150gb are not much larger then ones at 7gb in 360/ps3 era or 24gb in ps4 era.

1440P is a good middle ground, the power of PS5/XSX will be wasted on 4K.

 

[TheBROgamer]

StreetsofBeige

The iPhone released in 2007, too.

I consider the 2010's to be more about refinement, than innovation.

Look at the the difference between the iPhone 13 and the iPhone 14

That's refinement, not innovation.

The original iPhone was innovation.

 

[TheBROgamer]

Yes it's true and has been pointed out before. Around 2007 was really exciting with Crysis, Grid and Red Faction. As a racing game fan I was looking forward to more advancements in damage but the following games were worse and others avoided any or had easy paint scuffs. GT finally tried years later with laughable melting cars. Crysis games lost their physics. Other games completely avoided interactivity and physics for many years. We had more in interactivity MGS2 and GTA San Andreas for a long time on PS2 than on PS3/PS4 games. There were exciting cover mechanics in shooters back then.

It's very much been static cardboard worlds, simple mechanics and a lot of effort in put into cutscenes and mocap.

Exactly, while graphics have improved a bit.

Overall game design/interactivity is honestly no better than the PS2/PS3 era (in some cases worse), it just looks little prettier.

The hardware is much more capable but games have no adapted it, in any way that's head and shoulders above the previous MUCH weaker consoles.

 

[KXVXII9X]

And again it's all back to mah graphics.

90% of the replies in here back up my first reply.

I have been parroting non-graphical advancements way before this thread. The only reason I mentioned visuals was to make an argument about "peak graphics."

I have multiple other comments in this thread highlighting mechanics, VR, and interactivity.

 

[iQuasarLV]

Wrong, sometimes upscaled images are better than native 4k…research it..

Sure. Here are four examples using crappy YouTube compression. However, if I take the image presented with the commentary I can draw a conclusion

PS4 Pro (checkerboard rendering) vs. PC (native 4k)


Cyberpunk 2077 DLSS Comparison Timestamped


DF DLSS 2.0 vs 1.9 There are caveats


CYBERPUNK: DLSS 2.4 vs. FSR 2.1 vs. NATIVE 1080p & 1440p | RTX 3060Ti


tl:dr
upscaling solves performance problems while introducing new inherant image quality issues. Gee I believe I said that in my originally quoted post. But hey I am expressing an opinion with no foundation on researched real world examples. pfft.

 

[coffinbirth]

Someone has slept through the last 3 years of technical development.....

No, suggesting that upscaling <4K to 4K looks BETTER than native 4K is nonsense.
DLSS is great for performance, sure, but to suggest that an image looks better with LESS information, i.e. detail, onscreen is logic for the unwashed.

 

[Haggard]

No, suggesting that upscaling <4K to 4K looks BETTER than native 4K is nonsense.
DLSS is great for performance, sure, but to suggest that an image looks better with LESS information, i.e. detail, onscreen is logic for the unwashed.

Someone has slept through the last 3 years of technical development.....

 

[coffinbirth]

Someone has slept through the last 3 years of technical development.....

Receipts...
Show ONE image where upscaling 1080p looks better than native 4K.

EDIT: To clarify, just because I don't want to go round and round here, a STILL image will have less jaggies, I will concede, but the blurring and smearing, artifacting and noise when introduced has yet to be rectified. There are four videos above that prove this.

 

[Haggard]

Receipts...
Show ONE image where upscaling 1080p looks better than native 4K.

EDIT: To clarify, just because I don't want to go round and round here, a STILL image will have less jaggies, I will concede, but the blurring and smearing, artifacting and noise when introduced has yet to be rectified. There are four videos above that prove this.

"Balanced/Quality" dlss is 1440p for the 4k target so I have no idea where you got the 1080p from. And there are quite literally hundreds of comparison videos on yt....
As you already admitted DLSS beats out most native resolutions in details like fine geometry text etc, and that goes for still images as well as motion.
The artifacting and ghosting has mostly vanished since dlss went past V2.0 for most games and in most of the minute to minute gameplay a quality mode DLSS picture will simply look sharper and cleaner than native.

And those systems haven't even been out for long.
The moment Intel's and AMDs open solutions get to that level native resolution is dead for good.

 

[Wildebeest]

Things like physics sims are nightmares for multiplayer code because there is so much to synchronize between clients. I don't know exactly Battlefield handles it, but it seems only certain limited things have destruction enabled, and there is not as much debris and shrapnel flying around in combat as you would expect.

 

[coffinbirth]

"Balanced" dlss is 1440p so I have no idea where you got the 1080p from. And there are quite literally hundreds of comparison videos on yt....
As you already admitted DLSS beats out most naive resolutions in fine details like fine geometry text etc and there are indeed examples where the reconstruction introduced some artifacts. But that has nearly vanished since dlss went past V2.0 on most games already and those systems will continue to get even better. Native resolution is fast becoming a pointless waste of resources.

It fails to look as good when in motion is my stance, actually.
Artifacts, trailing, blurring/smearing and aliasing issues are called downsides, and they are all still issues with 2.0. I will never argue that native is a waste of resources, just that the upscaling is objectively better looking.
Eventually, almost certainly. Currently, no.

 

[Haggard]

It fails to look as good when in motion is my stance, actually.
Artifacts, trailing, blurring/smearing and aliasing issues are called downsides, and they are all still issues with 2.0. I will never argue that native is a waste of resources, just that the upscaling is objectively better looking.
Eventually, almost certainly. Currently, no.

Then we'll have to agree to disagree. Most gameplay with DLSS in quality mode is simply sharper and cleaner than native for me.
I'm at the point where it's not even a question if I need the performance or not.

 

[ResetEraVetVIP]

Nonsense.

Watch at 11:23 This is 2 years old…btw DLSS is sometimes better compared to native 4k with AA like TAA.. Todays DLSS is wayyyyyyy better…