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(Gamingfront) PS4 Plan: Twice the power of PS3 @ much lower cost, FEWER SPEs?

camineet

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http://gamingfront.net/story-156-.html

It's a translated article so it's hard to make sense of what's being said here

Playstation 4 Plan Details Leaked
Posted by Omodis420, 5 hours ago Jan 29, 2009 05:05

(Please excuse some funny English this has been translated from Japanese)

"The PS4 will also continue to utilize the existing CELL architecture, rather than launch something brand new. Bravo, says me, because forcing developers to effectively pick up and move from their established country to Timbuktu every half a decade is a surefire way to cripple launch cycles and leave "un-anointed" third-party developers out in the cold. What’s more, a twice-powerful PS3 would almost certainly offer enough "oomph" to keep the plaudits coming from the hardcore faithful, while allowing Sony to more vigorously reach out to the Nintendo "casual" market with a steady stream of cheap-to-develop titles. The idea by 2011, presumably, would be to have a pinched and tweaked CELL SDK that absolutely purrs." blogs.pcworld.com

The PS4 with the development of CPU-Cell B.E.

Sony Computer Entertainment (SCE) is the next game console "PLAYSTATION 4 (PS4)" a, Cell Broadband Engine (Cell BE) are starting to take full consideration based architecture. Currently, much of the reaction GEMUDIBEROPPA, said that the stage of exploring the concrete implementation. The SCE, PS4 generation PS3 production costs are lower than at the same time and generation, seems to be a way to curb investment to continue development architecture.

Cell BE with SCE PS4 are still kept away from the possibility that, for now, Cell BE & expansion seems to be moving in that direction based on the improved version.

SCE was originally a PS3 at the stage of concrete projects, Cell BE architecture PS3 was planning to continue in subsequent generations. Therefore, over the huge cost, to endure over the long term development as a CPU developed the Cell BE architecture. Cell BE-based PLAYSTATION original plan was put in a magnificent sight on the distributed computing network in the end.

The current plan is PS4, Cell BE-based from the original look of the PLAYSTATION + Cell BE as close to the expansion strategy, the reality seems to be no different. In order to reduce the investment in hardware and software, Cell BE-based PS4 is to develop a story. I have already invested a huge Cell BE, the investment in the software stack and tools, is that if you want to inherit would be the aim of SCE. SCE to now, PS3 and development of the same size, would not afford to perform in the next generation.

Moreover, PS4, also reduced the size of the chip itself, to be headed toward a lower cost. PLAYSTATION 2 of the past generation, the two main chip, the die (chip itself), starting at 200 square mm chip’s high-performance, high cost and large size around to shrink the chip manufacturing costs and scaling process taking a strategy to reduce the price. However, PS4 generation of low-cost rival to the Wii, lower production costs in a small chip from the first car, and expected lower price.

● SCE’s direction PS4 or reduce the number of CPU cores

PS4 is, PS3 or the performance will be up for one. PS3 is the Cell BE, for control of the CPU core "PPU (Power Processor Unit)" the one to each CPU core operation for the "SPU (Synergistic Processor Unit)" the seven (originally eight pieces, for a yield disabled) has a total of 8 CPU cores. Then, Cell BE is a scalable CPU by increasing the number of cores, which can increase the performance architecture.

So, PS4 So, CPU core 32 or the numbers and reach. Cell BE is present, 90nm shrink because of the layout while maintaining its basic version, the smaller the degree of reduction of the die. 235 square mm for the 90nm version, 65nm version is 175 square mm, 45nm version is 115 square mm. However, PS4 again to fix the design of a significant number of 45nm chips on the CPU cores can be (SPU Toshiba has significantly reduced the area of core). SCE’s original "IKEIKE" Under the plan, 45 ~ 32nm in the 24 core and 32-core Cell BE and had potential. As if Moore’s Law, 32 reach the core. But SCE will probably do so.





PS4 is, PS3 for, is likely to remain大人SHII surprisingly improved performance. The SCE’s plan, not a high-performance, high cost, it seems to be the direction to achieve a certain level of performance while reducing costs. To minimize production costs, reduce the die size of the chip block (CPU units if 100 mm square), Cell BE-based CPU, even increasing the number of cores is expected to hold. Perhaps, from the current 8-core will increase dramatically. 45nm process DATOSUREBA pay up to 100 mm square in one panel, is likely to remain in the core number of 10. Some frequency is likely to improve, but here is the dramatic and put a big hand to cut the circuit design and architecture. Then, CPU and only, live performance and twice the current 2.x, so will be dramatically cut.

However, CPU core number is still waiting for feedback from GEMUDEBEROPPA, has not been determined. Not decided on the specifications in the research stage. However, SCE PS4 say that we take a cautious route, you hear.

Incidentally, for memory, PS3 employs fewer cases of non-XDR DRAM memory instead, such as generic JEDEC (Electronic Industries Association of America in the infrastructure of the EIA, the semiconductor standardization organizations) plan to use a memory standard said to be emerging. This is because of cost savings. However, JEDEC DDR4 because in fact we have been canceled and仕切RI直SHI, PS4 in phases, in fact, have no choice DDR3 low-voltage version only. However, DRAM memory and CPU implementation of the package stacking or to die, SCE is considering.

SCE, the current generation of game consoles, is struggling big pinch. Although the situation is being improved, the Nintendo Wii is the purpose behind the current generation of machines that carve up the market. Put in a huge investment, high costs and high prices put the PS3 in a predicament because, SCE’s PLAYSTATION strategy, is being forced to change. The traditional game, "winning equation" because it would have been destroyed.

So far, the war game had some theories. The competition for high performance on the high initial investment has been favorable to expanding the user下GERE selling prices and higher prices in the first layer with time and casual gamers to the hard-core gamer with a high-performance引KITSUKERE spread, and a graphic. However, Wii’s success, he is now a question mark to such theories.

Wii because of the success of the performance that put the price by reducing the cost of investment and venture closer to his new proposals on how to play the content MANMASHININTAFEISU, from the first KAJUARUGEMA intuitive interface and low price and that the target layer. Wii or later, if that’s turned the game if the rules of war, SCE must seek to lower development costs and production costs. The strategy will be aimed at立TENAKERE casual layer. The SCE, PS4 If you are trying to lower the cost of hardware, it is estimated that such a background. In addition, SCE itself, unlike the era Hisashi夛良Thursday, difficult to plan for high-risk, potentially low-flow and investment plans.

The Cell BE-based SCE, and other reasons, will release time. Generation now, incremental improvements are possible because of hardware and software, hardware generation change was considered a long span. However, the current SCE suggests that the movement, SCE that have similar plans in the span of the development of traditional and next-generation machine.

SCE is the one that preceded Microsoft’s Xbox 360, was leading. Microsoft, when the original Xbox, SCE despite Did you make your best development environment, but failed in the delay. The Xbox was released a development kit is a major GEMUDEBEROPPA PS2 had already been made in the game engine. So, Xbox 360 offers a proposition that the PS3 ahead of the success to take the lead in many areas of the world market. Currently, Xbox 360 is being caught up with the PS3, I could make a significant market base.

If you apply the lessons of the Xbox 360, SCE will have to invest ahead of the next car. The game is to start shipping products from the actual chip development for at least three years, four years is usually required. For example, SCE is attempting to launch in the year 2011 if a plan is quite urgent. The best way to fast development is to improve the existing architecture.

● made a huge investment Cell B.E.

Cell BE PS4 you plan to expand the載SEYOU and the SCE. However, many GEMUDEBEROPPA the current Cell BE CPU, simple way to increase the number of cores do not want to be. Cell BE, but have received positive support from many GEMUDEBEROPPA still is not. Despite the Cell BE SCE give, because they have reason to be so.

Cell BE is for this game to a different CPU. SCE & Sony IBM, Toshiba and purpose of the Cell BE was developed during the game, not only can be used to create a general-purpose CPU architectures. CPU this game, unlike in an airplane rather than abandon the use of every generation, used in the broader market is highly scalable general purpose can花開KA non-game software assets is pursuing a CPU . Of course, for the game, not just one generation, he assumes that you use across multiple generations.

Therefore, SCE is the development of the Cell BE architecture, made a large investment ever. In other words, Cell BE development costs are amortized, PS3 by more than one generation, not a generation, PLAYSTATION diverted to other devices in addition to a great deal would be done from the beginning. For example, PS4 as the Cell BE can provide improved CPU architecture itself, rather than developing from scratch is a small burden. SCE is, Cell BE will be a preference for continued use.

The idea of future development, Cell BE, the architecture is easy to take to improve the performance and scalable. CPU simply by changing the configuration of the bus and ring connected to the core, it is possible to increase the number of cores. CPU without significantly changing the basic architecture, CPU scalable increase the number of cores, you can raise a theoretical peak performance.

● Easy-to-deploy and scalable architecture Cell BE

In the standard multi-core CPU, CPU and the problem of increasing the number of cores. For example, the only traffic to keep the cache coherent, it is eaten, the bus bandwidth. Cell BE, which incorporate a mechanism to prevent from the start. The question many of the game software development, dedicated memory for each CPU core, "local store" It is the architecture.

Cell BE,設KEZU the cache to each CPU core to access the local store and explicit, CPU KOHIRENSHIMEKANIZUMU eliminates the need for increased drag on the number of core (Intel’s Larrabee is reversed The point is that it has developed a simple extension KOHIRENSHIMEKANIZUMU). And move to the workload of the processing stream of the future, just because the data are not reused, the cache would mean eliminating the most (about prefetched buffer) that were read.

Additionally, Cell BE, each CPU having a separate memory core, and the portable memory, that can scale seamlessly to distributed computing on a network. SPU to access the main memory from the DMA must be disabled介SANAKERE is why there is such.

The Cell BE architecture is the future to facilitate the increase in the CPU core, was to facilitate the way to the distributed computing. Cell B.E.強味have to develop it. SCE as the PS4 in the next hope to develop this architecture, it is natural for a generation.

By the way, Cell BE development of SCE (Sony), IBM, Toshiba engineers in Austin, the company made in the STI Design Center, currently, SCE said AKITEKUTOCHIMU of a few. PS4 architecture for the research, and found that it returned to the headquarters. Therefore, PS4 in the Cell BE SCE is it possible to leave the architecture. However, SCE’s, PS4 to have a Cell BE-based study, the results of the research PS4 After determining the direction of where you restart the development.



Reduce the burden of software development lie

Because of this situation, CPU to reduce the burden of development, Cell BE will continue to be a shortcut for SCE. However, SCE has more to worry about, it is estimated that the burden of software development.

SCE is in the PS3 software exceeded expectations and has been suffering the burden of development tools. Additional application development and maintenance of systems software and no end in sight. Compilers and tools can not meet the requirements of developers. BAKKUENDOSABA the system development and the accompanying expansion of network services endless. To reduce the burden on developers of the Cell BE development of software libraries to facilitate the optimization. Multi-core CPU with one of two ISA (instruction set architecture) with special education for the Cell BE programming. The huge burden of software, SCE loom. This is half the job done if the body releases a PlayStation 2 (PS2) and the generation of software development system is very different.

If, SCE to develop the PS4 and a completely new architecture must all start from zero again. Then, the software development costs, they will go up more mad. Than it is to inherit the architecture, and how best to promote the use of software assets and skills that are considered high potential SCE. As a result the PS3 hard to develop software, I finally appointed to a certain extent, SCE as not going to be the accumulation捨TETAKU.

The learning curve GEMUBENDA (proficiency) in terms of architecture, it is desirable to continue. Generation now, the gradual rise of the learning curve SOFUTOUEADEBEROPPA, particularly the PS3 platform is said to have a high degree of difficulty. PS3 titles in development is the only place I’m getting a spur. However, PS4 on the PS3 to have inherited it from, PS4 up the learning curve easier. However, in the GEMUDEBEROPPA, Cell BE architecture itself with a firm, say they can not be certain to increase the learning curve.

However, in principle, along with changes in the software side, the current problem could be alleviated to some extent. The original concept of the Cell BE, according to object-oriented software, 1 CPU was an object that can be assigned to the core architecture. Not by a large task granularity, each object to the small particle size CPU software assumes that you were assigned to the core. The smaller the grain size, Cell BE SPU’s easy to fit the size of memory, the principle is to increase the number of CPU cores, will also help to reduce the grain size of the software.

● PS4 is our ability to charm other than HADOSUPEKKU

Cell BE-based PS4 has emerged of the plan, SCE’s PLAYSTATION strategy. The company has already expanded the concept to be stalling over its failure PS3 merit, PS4 seen signs have a plan. However, too much to keep HADOUEASUPEKKU, PS3 fails to differentiate themselves from the generation, PS4 may fail to start. PS4, it will be passed on to less version, Wii points will be added to one or the other HADOSUPEKKU like a charm.


http://www.ps3center.net/news/2250/first-details-of-ps4-emerge/
First details of PS4 emerge
Posted on January 29, 2009 by Nick


We all knew it was coming. It was inevitable. Sony started work on the PS3 almost immediately after the launch of the PS2. And now the first details of the PS3's heir have hit the net, at least according to a Japanese tech site.

It seems Sony is still planning on using the Cell processor. Though the Cell has been a source of ire for many developers, the fact that the PlayStation 4 will continue to use it gives them an added reason to continue to try to figure out the answer to the console's metaphorical DiVinci code. The document states that Sony will continue to invest in the Cell, making it more powerful, but also streamlining the architecture a bit as well. The number of SPUs will also be cut down in the PS4 as well. This could also be in an effort to make it less difficult to program for.




http://www.tawkn.com/?page=site-newspost&news_id=1283
From the pics and info above, it appears that Sony is currently working on a 32nm chip that will most likely be featured in the PS4, however, if developed early could these chips possible make an appearance in future PS3 and lead the way for a price cut as well as even cooler systems? We shall see. Since Sony is deciding to stick with the cell technology, developers should be much more comfortable with the hardware which means better games and easier development from the get-go.
 

Ploid 3.0

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Wonder what the gpu will be and how cheap and slim they can get the parts. 2 cells finally instead of a gpu?
 

Ploid 3.0

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CosmicGroinPull said:
Only twice? That's almost like the Wii, isn't it?

I don't think it would be a bad thing. Graphics are almost as good as they're going to get without needing more expensive development processes, and more time for the art. Something that can do crysis easily would be a sweet spot.
 

Paznos

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That's fine, it would have more ram and a bigger GPU, aren't they also looking for people to make a PS3/PS2/PSP emulator?
 

Agent Icebeezy

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As I've always said, I fully expect of the three console manufacturers, for Microsoft to come the closest to getting to continuing the revolution of hardware power. They stand to lose the most if they don't. If all of this is true from Sony, it doesn't surprise me, outside of the lesser amounts of SPE units though, that is a bunch of garbage
 

Trailblazer

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I'm sorry i dont see where it says anything about less SPU's in the OP

But i can see them going with a smaller SPU to PPÉ ratio for the Cell 2.
Instead of having 1 PPE to 8 SPU's It couls be 1PPE to 6 SPU's.
So Cell 2 could have 2 PPÉs and 12 SPU's

Any thing less then 6 SPU's would break PS3 backward compatablitiy
 

Zombie James

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Pretty much what i've been saying for a while (except for the fewer SPE thing). The PS3 is an excellent foundation to build on: Cell is extensible, Blu-ray will be cheaper, and if they keep Nvidia as a partner backward compatibility shouldn't be an issue. All things taken into account, I think it'll easily end up being more than 2x the power of the PS3 without breaking the $299-349 barrier (maybe $399 depending on what extra features are added, but definitely NOT more than $399).

My $0.02....
 

kevm3

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I doubt that is the case, but don't even bother releasing it with that pathetic power increase. Just let the PS3 ride it out longer.
 

Blame!

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is it me or does it feel like the ps3 is still kinda new? like it just launched not too long ago?
 

M3wThr33

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planetmew.com
Edit:

NOTHING in that article mentions removing SPUs. :lol :lol :lol
It mentions that SPUs help reduce die size. :lol

Removing SPUs would be NIGHTMARE for BC of future titles.

FYI: There's 8 SPUs on each Cell. 1 is always shut off because they only need 7 and that helps the yield. Plus one is kept by the PS3, so the games only have access to 6.
 

neight

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I was actually looking forward to an upgraded PS3 because I love backwards compatability but wtf at removing SPEs.

Edit: Wait the article doesn't say that as serious speculation. It says they're still awaiting feedback on the number of cores and it actually talks about increasing cores.
 
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That article has misinterpreted the translated Japanese text. If I'm reading it correctly (I don't know any Japanese), it suggests a possible reduction from the CELL roadmap, which calls for 32 SPUs by 2011, not the cell as it existed in 2006. It's a silly idea to think the next gen cell will have fewer SPUs. The question is how many more will it have. Can they shrink the die and maximize spus in the process, or will they end up cutting spus to make the 32 or 22 nm chips feasible...
 

ItAintEasyBeinCheesy

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The Take Out Bandit said:
PS4, ONE SKU, $299.99 @ LAUNCH, BELIEVE WITH ME!

Killzone 3, Uncharted 3, Jak and Daxter, Syphon Filter, Gran Torismo 6 as launch titles.

Anyways, these are plans for the new toaster im inventing not the PS4.
 

Joe211

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Ploid 3.0 said:
I don't think it would be a bad thing. Graphics are almost as good as they're going to get without needing more expensive development processes, and more time for the art. Something that can do crysis easily would be a sweet spot.

60 fps 1080p right?
 

Sword Familiar

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nofi said:
From 2008. I swear gaming journalism is at its rock fucking bottom just now.

Yeah, it's 4 months old. Published september 29. Old indeed,
but news to me. Pretty interesting, but probably been discussed over and over.


CreativeWriter said:
As far as I know, that's the plan. Whether it happens or not is immaterial.

http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/9205/roadmap1kh0.png

Well, according to the article, the CPU that is likely to be inside of PS4 will be a cost reduced CELL BE, but it also points out that it won't necessarily mean that it will have more SPU cores than the PS3. If I understand this correctly, the PowerXCell one showed in your picture will probably be in computers rather than the PS4.
But what do I know? I shouldn't even begin to talk hardware, really.


But to clarify: It does not, in any way, say anything about REDUCING the number of SPUs. (I read the original source.)
 

Rhazer Fusion

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kevm3 said:
I doubt that is the case, but don't even bother releasing it with that pathetic power increase. Just let the PS3 ride it out longer.



This is what I was going to say. I could be inaccurate, but only twice the power isn't going to look noticeably better than the PS3. Trust me Sony, hold it back longer and give it more power so you can get to a consumer friendly price. The PS3 and even the X360 still seem like new technology to me. Too early to even think about this right now.
 

Crayon Shinchan

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"So, PS4 So, CPU core 32 or the numbers and reach. Cell BE is present, 90nm shrink because of the layout while maintaining its basic version, the smaller the degree of reduction of the die. 235 square mm for the 90nm version, 65nm version is 175 square mm, 45nm version is 115 square mm. However, PS4 again to fix the design of a significant number of 45nm chips on the CPU cores can be (SPU Toshiba has significantly reduced the area of core). SCE’s original "IKEIKE" Under the plan, 45 ~ 32nm in the 24 core and 32-core Cell BE and had potential. As if Moore’s Law, 32 reach the core. But SCE will probably do so."

Seems to indicate that the number of SPUs will be 24-32, depending on the manufacturing process they'll produce the chips on.

Which would mean perfect backwards compatibility and then some.
 

gofreak

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I'm not gonna read that whole babelfished article, but is this the same watch impress article from a while back?

I thought he speculated therein that Sony might go with a 8-12 SPE setup? Where did fewer SPEs come from?

I'm also not sure if it mentioned anything about the GPU (or RAM?). Which would obviously have a big say in how powerful the system is overall. A modestly more powerful CPU would not be very surprising though..if it was even twice as powerful I'd be mildly surprised. I just have a feeling they're only going to slightly increase CPU power, but put in a more contemporary GPU (for 2011/2012). It seems to me that the way things are going, most developers don't seem to know what to use increasing CPU power for asides from improving graphics..so...might as well just go with a 'small' CPU, 'big' GPU? Maybe I'll be surprised in the latter half of this generation, but that seems to be how more sophisticated developers are soaking up Cell's power. A 2011/2012 GPU could also be easily repurposed toward other processing tasks (like physics), if a developer actually needed significantly more power for things other than graphics.
 

Sword Familiar

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Crayon Shinchan said:
Seems to indicate that the number of SPUs will be 24-32, depending on the manufacturing process they'll produce the chips on.

Which would mean perfect backwards compatibility and then some.

Except that It's been incorrectly translated. It actually says that SCE is NOT likely to increase the number of SPUs for the PS4.

元々のSCEの“イケイケ”プランの通りなら、45~32nmで24コアや32コアといったCell B.E.に発展する可能性はあった。ムーアの法則の通りなら、32コアに達する。しかし今のSCEは、おそらくそうしないだろう。

"If it all went according to SCE's original plans, it's possible that it (the CPU) would have been developed to a 45~32nm and 24 or 32 core CELL B.E. According to Moore's Law, the number would reach 32 cores. However, the present SCE is not likely to do so."

Then it goes on about how they are more likely to try to reduce costs on the current CPU without drastically increasing the number of cores. It also says that they are awaiting feedback from the game developers before they decide the actual number of cores.

Nothing is decided. It's pure speculation at this point.
 
Feb 23, 2005
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I just realised I won't care about BC unless it offers framerate and/or AA improvement since I can always go back to PS3. It's not like lastgen's jump from SD to HD where you really need upscaling or old games look like shit.
 

Ninja Kn1ght

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GAF > Several Months > GAF > Gamingfront > GAF

It sounds like a good plan they need to get as much as they can from the investment they put into the cell, this will make it cheaper to develop. easier for devs to use since they'll be used to ps3 and cheaper to build.
 

Crayon Shinchan

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Sword Familiar said:
Except that It's been incorrectly translated. It actually says that SCE is NOT likely to increase the number of SPUs for the PS4.

元々のSCEの“イケイケ”プランの通りなら、45~32nmで24コアや32コアといったCell B.E.に発展する可能性はあった。ムーアの法則の通りなら、32コアに達する。しかし今のSCEは、おそらくそうしないだろう。

"If it all went according to SCE's original plans, it's possible that it (the CPU) would have been developed to a 45~32nm and 24 or 32 core CELL B.E. According to Moore's Law, the number would reach 32 cores. However, the present SCE is not likely to do so."

Then it goes on about how they are more likely to try to reduce costs on the current CPU without drastically increasing the number of cores. It also says that they are awaiting feedback from the game developers before they decide the actual number of cores.

Nothing is decided. It's pure speculation at this point.

fair enough. i did say before in the one that got locked, that, at this point in time, whatever they believe they'd do now likely change anyway to better suit the circumstances then
 

gofreak

GAF's Bob Woodward
Jun 8, 2004
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bmf said:
4 CBEs, no proper GPU, and a frame buffer?

Nein, danke. Unless they were heavily modified CBEs, which I think is unlikely if Sony wants to save on R&D.

Put in a reasonably power Cell CPU and a beefy nVidia GPU, and as much ram and bandwidth as can be afforded. $299 max. Make it break even or close to break-even from day one (not good for me as a consumer, but that's probably what sony will be targetting).

That's only considering the box though. I wouldn't be surprised if there's more to the whole setup than the core box, which would also require allowance in their budget.