It does.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
George Kamitani responds to Kotaku
- Thread starter LiK
- Start date
It does.
Oh god. Reading some of the replies here, I'm glad I was out of the loop. Here's my take:
There was absolutely no reason for George Kamitani to apolozie.
There was absolutely no reason for Jason Schreier to start shit in the first place.
There is nothing wrong with this game or its art style. There is no debate but a manufactured one. There is no issue here. Sex is okay, guys. Get over yourselves.
There was absolutely no reason for George Kamitani to apolozie.
There was absolutely no reason for Jason Schreier to start shit in the first place.
There is nothing wrong with this game or its art style. There is no debate but a manufactured one. There is no issue here. Sex is okay, guys. Get over yourselves.
But no, its hard hitting journalism!
Omegasquash
Member
I wouldn't go this far, here.
Your not getting the game anyway right? What would you have them do remove the witch from the game? Since the game is almost done and your not buying, what is the end product that would make you pleased? Are you trying to shame and hurt the end product because you feel It shoukd nit exist?
Schobeleth
Member
Yeah it's really, really bad and I think I draw the line at stuff like that, or Dead or Alive. I dunno, I just think Dragon's Crown has a uniform, unique style and it's meant to be exaggerated, not scantily clad just for the sake of it like those games are.
Also I never heard that David Jaffe exchange until now, that's simply amazing. He's even more my personal hero now, he's been my favorite developer for ages.
Get out now this thread will suck you in and make you want to say something drastic. lol
ShockingAlberto
Member
Fantastic.
Damn So that is why GTA: SA sold horribly... oh wait it didn't.
And it is perfectly possibly to make a game with different types of people in it and sell it.
Air Zombie Meat
Member
I just find it so strange to pick on this niche game. It's hardly going to have much influence over the industry at large. This issue does seem to have given it an awful lot of publicity that it wouldn't have had otherwise though.
nailbombxx
Member
Kind of, but he apologized while acting like he was some kind of hero for journalists and women.
Because it is an easy and effective scapegoat.
ShockingAlberto
Member
"Get back to your ghettos, minorities" is at least the most honest this argument has been.
partyphone
Banned
(he's the one who doesn't understand the context of the Citizen Kane clapping gif)
GhaleonQ
Member
It strikes me that caricatures only become harmful to critics when they become too widespread and when the target is something close to them. The way in which they are beautiful and helpful, in the way caricature exaggerates features, ideas, or the artists' intellectual premises, is no different from the way in which they are "harmful."
Moreover, caricature tends to be driven by mutual cultural understandings, so, more than other art, the style depends on a successful mediation between the artist and the audience.
So, because of both of those things, I think I, the audience, have a responsibility to assume good faith when I experience caricature. I assume good faith in his artistry and in the nature of his response.
kunonabi
Member
I find this whole situation funny because their are so many assumptions being made here.
Do women find the Sorceress design offensive?
Yes, but not ALL women. Most of the female gamers I know tend to like these sort of designs. Contrary to popular belief many women do like super hot characters. Games are meant to be a fantasy and escape. The Sorceress may not accomplish that goal for everyone but she does for others. Both camps are EQUALLY deserving and should be represented. She works perfectly fine with the type of aesthetic and appeal that the artist and game is aiming for. It's not like she is the only option the game provides for a female a avatar. You have the covered up Elf as well and the super buff Amazon to choose from.
Every character is getting one of these trailers and the Amazon has been used to market the game right along with the Sorceress so it's not like she has been completely singled out either.
I also find it interesting that people are claiming that she has been sexually objectified. My response to that is: By who?
I watched the video and I was more interested in her moveset and the potential gameplay style she might incorporate. If I was just looking at the game for the first time I would probably gravitate to her first. I enjoy magic based characters and I do like characters that I find visually appealing. However, if her playstyle doesn't match mine I'll try out the rest of the cast and see who clicks. Her having big breasts in no way defines her as a character for me. It's just part of her design. Schrier is the one objectifying her by refusing to define her by anything other than her looks.
Context needs to play a bigger role in trying to label characters as harmful or disruptive. Had this sort of design been used for say Heather in Silent Hill 3 I would certainly take issue with it. I'm not saying that her Heather couldn't have large breasts or that it would her change as a character but rather the more romanticized and over the top nature of the Sorceress would be at odds with the tone of SH3. This goes both ways as a design like Heathers wouldn't fit in Dragon's Crown either.
I certainly think female characters have taken a step back lately but I don't believe that Dragon's Crown is where our attention should be. I have a much bigger issue with the lack of female protagonists in general and the ways that characters like Jill, Lara, and others have become worse characters than they once were. It doesn't help that the types of solutions people propose don't really address the issue and some good female characterizations have been ignored or have flown over people's heads because of the baggage they bring to the table.
Do women find the Sorceress design offensive?
Yes, but not ALL women. Most of the female gamers I know tend to like these sort of designs. Contrary to popular belief many women do like super hot characters. Games are meant to be a fantasy and escape. The Sorceress may not accomplish that goal for everyone but she does for others. Both camps are EQUALLY deserving and should be represented. She works perfectly fine with the type of aesthetic and appeal that the artist and game is aiming for. It's not like she is the only option the game provides for a female a avatar. You have the covered up Elf as well and the super buff Amazon to choose from.
Every character is getting one of these trailers and the Amazon has been used to market the game right along with the Sorceress so it's not like she has been completely singled out either.
I also find it interesting that people are claiming that she has been sexually objectified. My response to that is: By who?
I watched the video and I was more interested in her moveset and the potential gameplay style she might incorporate. If I was just looking at the game for the first time I would probably gravitate to her first. I enjoy magic based characters and I do like characters that I find visually appealing. However, if her playstyle doesn't match mine I'll try out the rest of the cast and see who clicks. Her having big breasts in no way defines her as a character for me. It's just part of her design. Schrier is the one objectifying her by refusing to define her by anything other than her looks.
Context needs to play a bigger role in trying to label characters as harmful or disruptive. Had this sort of design been used for say Heather in Silent Hill 3 I would certainly take issue with it. I'm not saying that her Heather couldn't have large breasts or that it would her change as a character but rather the more romanticized and over the top nature of the Sorceress would be at odds with the tone of SH3. This goes both ways as a design like Heathers wouldn't fit in Dragon's Crown either.
I certainly think female characters have taken a step back lately but I don't believe that Dragon's Crown is where our attention should be. I have a much bigger issue with the lack of female protagonists in general and the ways that characters like Jill, Lara, and others have become worse characters than they once were. It doesn't help that the types of solutions people propose don't really address the issue and some good female characterizations have been ignored or have flown over people's heads because of the baggage they bring to the table.
spandexmonkey
Banned
I just wanted to point out, this (and the people you quoted) is a great example of criticism for art design you dislike. It's not condescending or weighed down with larger implications.
Mr.Monitor
Member
Fuck, thank you. Thank you, thank you, thank you.
Wow, I've got major respect for Kamitani now. I've loved his artwork since Princess Crown and Odin Sphere (the cover of Play with Gwendolyn on it is gorgeous). But to see such a reasonable response from him in the midst of this debacle is raises my opinion of him substantially. What's sad is that he pointed out what was already self-evident to many people: The game's aesthetic is all about exaggeration.
Hopefully he doesn't self-censor his artwork in the future or pressured into doing so by publishers.
Hopefully he doesn't self-censor his artwork in the future or pressured into doing so by publishers.
Knux-Future
Banned
Look.
I'm am not saying you cant criticize something. But there is a difference between criticizing something and trying to get everyone to agree with them or else.
Example, I don't like most FPSs. I think they are boring and that the CODification of the industry is bad. I never have but it would be okay for me to go into a thread or two and complain and criticize it. But to keep doing so over and over and over again...is when it becomes less about criticizing it and more about pushing your agenda.
That and the holier than thou attitude does you no favors and that's when people get tired of your shit.
I like debating things. I enjoyed the Iwata should go thread because both sides had good points and seemingly respected each other...this thread (on both sides) constantly goes into insults, dudes acting superior and such....
and here is the kicker....No one is 100% right here.
yes this design can be harmful to some and yes it "potentially" harm the industry, if it somehow sells crazy well and Publishers go..mo tittayz, mo money. Cool I get that.
i get how it can be harmful but that harm isn;t guaranteed at all and honestly it is unlikely. That's my opinion of course and I can be wrong. Fine.
But it is difficult to do agree with anything said because each side has that air of "fuck you you are wrong and my opinion is flawless". It kills any debate because it's no longer about the issue but about proving how much better you are than others.
I'm am not saying you cant criticize something. But there is a difference between criticizing something and trying to get everyone to agree with them or else.
Example, I don't like most FPSs. I think they are boring and that the CODification of the industry is bad. I never have but it would be okay for me to go into a thread or two and complain and criticize it. But to keep doing so over and over and over again...is when it becomes less about criticizing it and more about pushing your agenda.
That and the holier than thou attitude does you no favors and that's when people get tired of your shit.
I like debating things. I enjoyed the Iwata should go thread because both sides had good points and seemingly respected each other...this thread (on both sides) constantly goes into insults, dudes acting superior and such....
and here is the kicker....No one is 100% right here.
yes this design can be harmful to some and yes it "potentially" harm the industry, if it somehow sells crazy well and Publishers go..mo tittayz, mo money. Cool I get that.
i get how it can be harmful but that harm isn;t guaranteed at all and honestly it is unlikely. That's my opinion of course and I can be wrong. Fine.
But it is difficult to do agree with anything said because each side has that air of "fuck you you are wrong and my opinion is flawless". It kills any debate because it's no longer about the issue but about proving how much better you are than others.
Giolon
Member
I don't agree that the new Lara Croft is poor female character design.
GhaleonQ
Member
Hm.
I just want to ask, because of your avatar, if customization in fighting games degrades male and female character alike in this way, since there will be always be items that could be characterized as juvenile, sexual, or absurd.
I should add that this is because any art that isn't photorealistic has the artist's point-of-view impressed on it, not just his artisanry. So, I assume good faith because it creates a safe space for creativity and imagination.
Yeah, le sigh...
Well I meant why are people on GAF doing this not Kotaku. I know Kotaku gotta Kotaku and Jason had too many good articles out lately so he had to lower himself to Kotaku standards sooner or later.
It's really sad, then you have games like ME or DA that get a pass because it's a western dev and they are 'best gamez eva'.
Zen_Arcade
Banned
I never said that only black people can make games with black people in them. I said we need more creative people that like you said, are willing to try something new.
The only reason I brought up black artists success in other industries is because you specifically brought up one that was neglected because of his race and the content of his work. But that
doesn't mean you should belittle peoples work just because its not what you want.
R* did exactly what I said, go find people with different life experiences to inform their influences and make a good game. I'm not saying that a game made about the lives of a black man can't appeal to everyone. I'm saying that instead of people asking why they're aren't black people in Dragons Crown they should be asking why there aren't more people in the industry that are willing to make entire games centered around a black character.
Its a very important distinction to make. The former is trying to influence a developer with a creative vision to do what you want, while the latter is questioning the industry as a whole and why it isn't more progressive. We shouldnt be sitting around questioning why specific people aren't making things to cater to everyone. We should be questioning why the industry as a whole doesn't have a broader spectrum.
Kamitani replied to Jason's initial insults by posting 3 joyful naked dwarves having a good time and saying something along the lines of "here's something you may prefer Jason".
Anyone with half a working brain could figure out that this was friendly jab, but of course Jason and the rest of the video game "journalist" hacks interpreted it as a terrible act of unforgivable homophobia and started painting Kamitani as the worst person ever, to the point where Kamitani had to step down and apologize for it.
I cannot believe it has come to this where Kamitani had to make a public response to the most inflammatory click-bait piece of shit article Kotaku has had in recent memory, by the same guy who posts on neoGAF trying to get people to give the website another chance. I hope Kamitani continues to make his amazing art for future games without having to take into account some game journalists' misguided views and inability to rationalize information before jumping the gun.
It is thoroughly amusing to me that you can read all the responses to the shitstorm you created and still be confused about why people are angry. Nobody is angry about the fact that you have a different opinion on what you like. People are angry because you are taking your own stance and saying this is the only righteous one because it is harmful to women if even one is offended in the slightest to it. That kind of defensive position is dumb to take in any kind of argument, let alone something that is so subjective as art. You can dislike something but saying it is harmful is akin to saying it should not exist and it is wrong and that is where the line is drawn and where people begin to get angry. Just because it's not something you like doesn't mean it can't be appreciated by others. This is in combination with you throwing around terms incorrectly like stating the Sorceress is lolicon. I'm not even touching the 14 year old teenage boy comment because it should be blatantly apparent what a juvenile, unprofessional comment was.
This whole event makes me question a lot of things about Kotaku and you personally. I thought you were above this sensationalist game industry bullshit that is all too common now but it seems not only do you embrace it but you took a stance on a subject matter that means a lot to people over a game that is essentially a drop in the bucket for the industry. There have been several female GAFers who specifically told you why your views are not only wrong but misguided in the sense that you are hurting the feminist movement of equality in video games. Your lack of being able to take a step back and try to view things from women who you are supposedly speaking for is not only disappointing but alarming in the sense that you don't seem to understand what it's really about.
It is thoroughly amusing to me that you can read all the responses to the shitstorm you created and still be confused about why people are angry. Nobody is angry about the fact that you have a different opinion on what you like. People are angry because you are taking your own stance and saying this is the only righteous one because it is harmful to women if even one is offended in the slightest to it. That kind of defensive position is dumb to take in any kind of argument, let alone something that is so subjective as art. You can dislike something but saying it is harmful is akin to saying it should not exist and it is wrong and that is where the line is drawn and where people begin to get angry. Just because it's not something you like doesn't mean it can't be appreciated by others. This is in combination with you throwing around terms incorrectly like stating the Sorceress is lolicon. I'm not even touching the 14 year old teenage boy comment because it should be blatantly apparent what a juvenile, unprofessional comment was.
This whole event makes me question a lot of things about Kotaku and you personally. I thought you were above this sensationalist game industry bullshit that is all too common now but it seems not only do you embrace it but you took a stance on a subject matter that means a lot to people over a game that is essentially a drop in the bucket for the industry. There have been several female GAFers who specifically told you why your views are not only wrong but misguided in the sense that you are hurting the feminist movement of equality in video games. Your lack of being able to take a step back and try to view things from women who you are supposedly speaking for is not only disappointing but alarming in the sense that you don't seem to understand what it's really about.
Because we genuinely believe the things that we are saying
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=55644388&postcount=508
My thoughts exactly. Enthusiast press throwing out unabashed insults and then acting offended when he reciprocates.
Clear
CliffyB's Cock Holster
ShockingAlberto said:
Not really.
I take the point about how hate-mongers throughout history have exaggerated racial features in their illustrations to demonize ethnic and religious groups as part of their propaganda, but you simply cannot simply lump everything that fits that aesthetic into the same pile.
Context is kind of important don't you think?
That's what offends me so mightily about this whole feeble controversy. Kamitani is clearly employing the same stylization to all the characters, and yet this one figure is what is being fixated upon.
What's the intent here? Its clearly not an incitement to identify and persecute. Is it hateful or humorous in tone? Do the male figures share the same aesthetic properties?
Exaggeration in form does not imply disdain or hatred in itself; its neutral. Its visual satire, not hate-speech.
AlimNassor
Banned
:Lol, 'm privileged? What privilege do I have? I'm unattractive and pasty skinned and poor. I'm hardly privileged.
Mr.Monitor
Member
Read: You're entitled if you disagree.
Why bother? Two female Gaffers posted many reasonable comments in the Sorc trailer thread on why this doesn't offend them specifically. Doesn't seem like the offended actually cared what they had to say about it.
That's a good post, but why doesn't Kotaku report on that, in a game where Miranda's ass shot is completely out of place as opposed to game where Big boobs fit the artstyle.
And it' even sadder that Jason doesn't even bother to come here to defend himself, hell to apologise.
ShockingAlberto
Member
you are statistically better off than a minority individual born and raised in the same circumstances
And for what it's worth, I'm concluding my participation in this topic with this:
I am way more interested in Dragon's Crown than I was before, and I may pick it up.
And, there is almost no such thing as games journalism. There is the games press, or media, or whatever you want to call it. It is juvenile and has the tact of a sledgehammer. I would not be surprised if this whole thing was started by Kotaku/Jason Schreier solely to get more advertising revenue for their site. You can't call it journalism without any integrity.
I am way more interested in Dragon's Crown than I was before, and I may pick it up.
And, there is almost no such thing as games journalism. There is the games press, or media, or whatever you want to call it. It is juvenile and has the tact of a sledgehammer. I would not be surprised if this whole thing was started by Kotaku/Jason Schreier solely to get more advertising revenue for their site. You can't call it journalism without any integrity.
ShockingAlberto
Member
Absolutely, if you ignore all the parts where he did those things, then he didn't do them at all.
nailbombxx
Member
Kamitani designed a fantasy female character for a fantasy game that is tethered to no amount of realism. Why go conservative with her design?
At this point I don't even care as long as it gives this Kamitani and company some publicity.
At this point I don't even care as long as it gives this Kamitani and company some publicity.
peanutbutterlatte
Member
Sorry man, as long as you have this guy;
Writing for your website, you have not a leg to stand on in terms of calling out sexual objectification.
Neuromancer
Member
This guy is way classier than Jason was. I hope he keeps on doing what he does best and doesn't bend to the vocal minority who don't like his art.
Knux-Future
Banned
redacted.
Gta was a joke on Boyz in the hood full of stereotypes. (And tons of Scottish football jokes and hidden references) In that case the PS1 Tombraider games sold well why change the design.
GTASA was good for blacks the same way Dave chappelle was. Game had a black character as the lead but was more laugh at me than laugh with me by design. How many times was the N word used in the first 20 mins?
Giolon
Member
Have you done any research on Selvaria, my thoughts on the character, or my thoughts on the figure renditions of her, or are you just trying to insinuate something based on my avatar choice?
the offended dont care about much of anything but being offended.
they've been asked to see the characters personality and refused, choosing to judge purely on appearance. good job guys, that's just what women wanted!
they've been pointed to the elf and amazon as examples of diversity, they ignored them because this one "still exists" so in the name of diversity, certain depictions guys on the internet dont like should cease to exist because it's "gross". THAT'S not problematic at all!
nailbombxx
Member
I have a question. Do you have to be male, female, old or young to appreciate beautiful scantily clad characters in fiction?
Because I'm pretty sure everyone can appreciate.
Because I'm pretty sure everyone can appreciate.