i'm sorry i didn't consider the depth of your animu princess
please enlighten me as to her interesting personality and backstory
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George Kamitani responds to Kotaku
- Thread starter LiK
- Start date
i'm sorry i didn't consider the depth of your animu princess
please enlighten me as to her interesting personality and backstory
Care to point me to an apology by Jason to Kamitani?
EDIT: No need, just read it, would hardly call that a sincere apology though.
Knux-Future
Banned
This doesn't help your cause.
It only alienates others more and kills whatever point you may have had.
http://kotaku.com/the-real-problem-with-that-controversial-sexy-video-ga-478120280
"First, I should make it clear that I do not actually believe that Kamitani is a 14-year-old boy, and I apologize for the insult. My point should have been clearer."
CambriaRising
Member
He has just been trolling for the last 3 pages. There is no use wasting the time anymore.
peanutbutterlatte
Member
It definitely should have been. Doesn't change that his point is silly whatever way he phrases it.
keep moving those goalposts
I didn't see this particular dodge get called out so I wanted to highlight it. This wasn't a matter of simply re-publicizing a game's trailers on its behalf. You chose to call one out one trailer for deliberate criticism of the game but when the next trailer arrives that establishes a more complete picture that counter-balances your earlier knee-jerk response, you didn't provide even-handed coverage.
Giolon
Member
And I think we're done here.
The Omega Man
Member
Sorry man, as long as you have this guy;
Writing for your website, you have not a leg to stand on in terms of calling out sexual objectification.
that guy posts are:
hey Guys I live in japan!. hey Guy my wife is Japanese, hey guys my kids are so Japanese that they don't even speak english!
he is living the weaboo's dream, Kotaku can't ditch him, Japanophiles will be up in arms.
obligatory:
http://www.somethingawful.com/d/news/gameblogguu-kotaku-parody.php?page=2
second article
Freezie KO
Banned
This guy's designs are terrible. Nice of him to write the letter though.
nailbombxx
Member
I can't wait for the next article by Schreier.
"Michelangleo's David looks like it was sculpted for teenage girls."
"Michelangleo's David looks like it was sculpted for teenage girls."
Schobeleth
Member
Is this sarcasm, I can't tell anymore. The threads covering this stuff have burned my mind.
The poster you're replying to, in a previous thread on this same subject, readily admitted that drawing out ridiculous responses was their sole goal.
I appreciate that you're making the effort to have an actual conversation, but trying to have a fruitful discussion with someone whose stated objective is to ensure that fruitful discussion is difficult -- if not impossible -- is pretty much futile.
partyphone
Banned
spandexmonkey
Banned
haha, no I'm being sincere.
~Devil Trigger~
In favor of setting Muslim women on fire
She's a 22 year old general with huuuuuuge responsibilities.
But she has tits
cant respect that kinda stuff
Fine Ham Abounds
Member
Wow, this thread went places.
I can only speak from my own experience, but I am well aware of my privilege. Privilege doesn't mean you are a bad person or an ignorant person, it means that due to the limitations we all have to perceive reality, it's really hard for anyone to truly understand how someone else sees the world. It's the little things that make the most difference, the way we grew up and the things we had that we took for granted. I know folks who grew up in a 2 story house on waterfront property with a sailboat and their parents paid for college, but because their parents made them work for everything as a child, they thought they grew up poor and weren't spoiled. I grew up in a 4 room apartment in mid city New Orleans, but my parents prioritized my education and my hobbies, and I never knew I was poor until I was an adult.
I'm a tall, bulky white male living in the South. I dress business casual even on off days. Even though I'm theoretically a minority in my home town, I also know I can take a drive to the middle of nowhere in Louisiana or Mississippi and know I won't be pulled over because of the color of my skin. I can walk down dark streets alone at night and know that when I cross paths with other men, they are usually intimidated by my size and my appearance when I know most of them could probably kick my ass. People will talk to me about how Obama is taking away their guns and the race war is coming, and as long as I nod and laugh, I have the luxury to ignore them and be on my way. I am not well off, I am not rich, but I am well aware I have at least some things unfairly stacked in my favor. That's not my fault or my choice any more than any accidents of birth are for anyone, and as such I shouldn't feel shame or burden or guilt because of it, but it's not something I have a right to pretend doesn't exist.
Anyways...
As a man, I can say I'm not offended by oversexualization of male characters at all. I don't know the relevance of that, unless most men feel this way as well, and this means most men simply aren't offended by oversexualization in general. Like I'm sure most people here, I don't much correlate appearance with character or worth anyway, so I couldn't care less how someone presents their appearance.
I think in the case of the Sorceress though, there's two basic questions that need to be asked regarding her design: 1) is the character's depiction demeaning to women, to which my answer is no because the art style is not attempting to be either realistic, idealistic, or exclusionary, and I feel the rest of the game's art design and the artist's purported intent supports that stance (though there's little denying that the character is intended to appeal to a specific demographic for obvious reasons, and I'd also certainly weigh my opinion against the likely more nuanced and relevant opinions of actual women); and 2) is the character given the agency in context to support the way she is presented as being in-character. Here I simply must acknowledge that I haven't played the game yet, but I believe from what we've seen that she is clearly intended to be both an unnaturally farcical and powerful character, yet in control of her own destiny, and so I don't feel she is presented in a sexist way.
Of course, the game could come out and the plot could involve her being controlled by a demon that makes her clothes explode off every night at midnight after which she is set upon by randy locustmen, and you can bet that would affect my comfort level with the character.
I can only speak from my own experience, but I am well aware of my privilege. Privilege doesn't mean you are a bad person or an ignorant person, it means that due to the limitations we all have to perceive reality, it's really hard for anyone to truly understand how someone else sees the world. It's the little things that make the most difference, the way we grew up and the things we had that we took for granted. I know folks who grew up in a 2 story house on waterfront property with a sailboat and their parents paid for college, but because their parents made them work for everything as a child, they thought they grew up poor and weren't spoiled. I grew up in a 4 room apartment in mid city New Orleans, but my parents prioritized my education and my hobbies, and I never knew I was poor until I was an adult.
I'm a tall, bulky white male living in the South. I dress business casual even on off days. Even though I'm theoretically a minority in my home town, I also know I can take a drive to the middle of nowhere in Louisiana or Mississippi and know I won't be pulled over because of the color of my skin. I can walk down dark streets alone at night and know that when I cross paths with other men, they are usually intimidated by my size and my appearance when I know most of them could probably kick my ass. People will talk to me about how Obama is taking away their guns and the race war is coming, and as long as I nod and laugh, I have the luxury to ignore them and be on my way. I am not well off, I am not rich, but I am well aware I have at least some things unfairly stacked in my favor. That's not my fault or my choice any more than any accidents of birth are for anyone, and as such I shouldn't feel shame or burden or guilt because of it, but it's not something I have a right to pretend doesn't exist.
Anyways...
As a man, I can say I'm not offended by oversexualization of male characters at all. I don't know the relevance of that, unless most men feel this way as well, and this means most men simply aren't offended by oversexualization in general. Like I'm sure most people here, I don't much correlate appearance with character or worth anyway, so I couldn't care less how someone presents their appearance.
I think in the case of the Sorceress though, there's two basic questions that need to be asked regarding her design: 1) is the character's depiction demeaning to women, to which my answer is no because the art style is not attempting to be either realistic, idealistic, or exclusionary, and I feel the rest of the game's art design and the artist's purported intent supports that stance (though there's little denying that the character is intended to appeal to a specific demographic for obvious reasons, and I'd also certainly weigh my opinion against the likely more nuanced and relevant opinions of actual women); and 2) is the character given the agency in context to support the way she is presented as being in-character. Here I simply must acknowledge that I haven't played the game yet, but I believe from what we've seen that she is clearly intended to be both an unnaturally farcical and powerful character, yet in control of her own destiny, and so I don't feel she is presented in a sexist way.
Of course, the game could come out and the plot could involve her being controlled by a demon that makes her clothes explode off every night at midnight after which she is set upon by randy locustmen, and you can bet that would affect my comfort level with the character.
I think you missed something.
Since people are resorting to the "well, girls don't mind" argument. I'm a female gamer and I find the design offensive. Her breasts are so large they generate their own gravitational zone. Just FYI. I'm not calling for censorship. But I'm going to reserve the right to find the design sexist, because it is.
Good, an opposing viewpoint. And I did mention those female Gaffers spoke for themselves and not all girls.
Schobeleth
Member
I think a lot of people posting in these threads are of the same mindset - they're just looking to get a rise out of people under the thin veil of being offended themselves at a game that is not meant to be objectifying women :\
Ah ok cool
It's hard to tell these days when everyone is hiding behind partially made statements, just in case so they can step back and say "that's not what I meant!".googleplex
Member
Why should any artist give two fuck about a "prevailing narrative" or anything that happens outside of his own creative process.
You presume that the "prevailing narrative" is Kamitani responsibility.
Delusibeta
Banned
ITT: people who think that humans can't distinguish between fiction and reality.
Omegasquash
Member
Eh, it's done. It's already been evidenced that the statements are just trying to get a rise out of people.
You're right. I also oppose the dwarf painting that Kamitani did. Utterly disgusting to seem 3 men with huge muscles. Totally sexist.
Tummi Gummi
Member
Because older men are so much more sympathetic to your beliefs than 20-30-somethings.
buddha0991
Member
Ok, i'm not throwing myself into this ring, because I am totally neutral on this, because I was once on the feminist side quite a while ago, but the way some of them present themselves is ridiculous, but I will say that, I am for equality, that is all. What I want to say, is that technically, if we live in a first world country, we are all privileged over many others. Last of all, here enjoy this picture for no reason.
Are you serious or just shitting the thread?
djplaeskool
Member
Mr.Monitor
Member
I can't remember what that series of strips is called but they are hilarious. Isn't it from Hark! A Vagrant?
Knux-Future
Banned
Since the guy this wasp posed to is ignoring it I shall repost.
It's like some people aren't even fully reading his apology.
So what is the big deal? When the idea was too exaggerate a part of the body(The Amazon it's the booty, and the Elf it is the Thighs. The Fighter is tall, the Dwarf is buff and the Wizard is pretty...each to the extreme...)?
I'm not saying it wasnt done to titalate...because it was but I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with that. Sexiness isnt a bad thing and the actual character owns this sexiness and flaunts it well...it's not like she has big boobs and then spends most of the game avoiding getting groped or is simply there to be saved. She is out there living a life and doing her own thing. It's over the top...that is kinda the whole point.
Games like DOA (which I enjoy) you have a point since after losing fights the Girls stay on the ground panting while looking at the camera...that's kinda creepy lol. That I understand the issue with it. I personally dont think Sexism was in the devs minds and rather they just created something they liked but I get the argument in that case. The other moe moe stuff Japan shits out..i get it.
I don't get what the solution would be? To stop it? Then what about the group that enjoys those games? It doesn't seem fair to me and perhaps it won;t be but I get it. I don't whats the big deal here....especially now that the goddam creator explained his intention behind the designs...so unless you are caling him a liar, what is up?
The issue is that some want this game to be something it never was going to be and/or to stand for some misguided cause you believe in. The industry needs more diversity....I'm just not sure how a game with extreme designs is keeping it from that.
It's a reach to me.
It's like some people aren't even fully reading his apology.
So what is the big deal? When the idea was too exaggerate a part of the body(The Amazon it's the booty, and the Elf it is the Thighs. The Fighter is tall, the Dwarf is buff and the Wizard is pretty...each to the extreme...)?
I'm not saying it wasnt done to titalate...because it was but I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with that. Sexiness isnt a bad thing and the actual character owns this sexiness and flaunts it well...it's not like she has big boobs and then spends most of the game avoiding getting groped or is simply there to be saved. She is out there living a life and doing her own thing. It's over the top...that is kinda the whole point.
Games like DOA (which I enjoy) you have a point since after losing fights the Girls stay on the ground panting while looking at the camera...that's kinda creepy lol. That I understand the issue with it. I personally dont think Sexism was in the devs minds and rather they just created something they liked but I get the argument in that case. The other moe moe stuff Japan shits out..i get it.
I don't get what the solution would be? To stop it? Then what about the group that enjoys those games? It doesn't seem fair to me and perhaps it won;t be but I get it. I don't whats the big deal here....especially now that the goddam creator explained his intention behind the designs...so unless you are caling him a liar, what is up?
The issue is that some want this game to be something it never was going to be and/or to stand for some misguided cause you believe in. The industry needs more diversity....I'm just not sure how a game with extreme designs is keeping it from that.
It's a reach to me.
Well I'm serious in that my point is that finding a particular character design sexist because the secondary sexual characteristic on the sorceress, i.e. boobs, are exagerated while being ok with other character designs where their secondary sexual characteristics are being exagerated, i.e. their beards and muscles, is a bit of a paradox.
Should have taken the longer time to explain it, though.
EDIT: It's just like semi-naked women are aplenty in God of War. It's Greek mythology on steroids so it fits the game's narrative and style. On the other hand Kratos and all the gods are the buffiest fuckers you'll ever seen, even Zeus who should be an old man.
Knux-Future
Banned
Well there is your problem there.
You are hoping to "teach" people.
That kind of attitude is condesending as fuck and automatically turns people off of whatever the fuck you are saying.
it gives off the attitude of "let me show these plebs what really is going on"..
nobody has time to get talked down to.
Good on Schreier for apologizing but I still dont like the overall point hes making with this.
I get that sexism exists in gaming and that it is a horrible thing but I dont feel like the Sorceress is symbolic of gamings sexism problem.
Also, maybe Im being dumb here but how is a female character with large jiggly breasts sexist in a game filled with over exaggerated anatomy for both male and female characters?
I get that sexism exists in gaming and that it is a horrible thing but I dont feel like the Sorceress is symbolic of gamings sexism problem.
Also, maybe Im being dumb here but how is a female character with large jiggly breasts sexist in a game filled with over exaggerated anatomy for both male and female characters?
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
Yeah I'm surprised some people don't see the homoerotism in that picture too.
mpf
Yeah I don't get that either. It just seemed like Kotaku was stuck was clicks that particular day.
All I saw were 3 buffy dwarfs drawn as a response to one chick with huge boobs.
PedroPanache
Member
I do think within the context of the game there is a campness to the game's art design, and I think it's camp in a juvenile, titillating way. The artist's style is inherently camp, just look at the image he sent to the Kotaku journalist. I just don't find the sorceress to be overtly sexual in any harmful way, because the way she's designed is ludicrous to the point of it being funny. The "girl's don't mind" argument as a means of justifying the art is silly, because there will always be "girl's who do mind", so it doesn't really add anything to the debate.
JordanN
Banned
I still don't get how big chest = sexist.
Dictionary 'sexist' said:
Dictionary 'sexism' said:
One could say characters being treated differently by virtue of large breasts alone is discrimination. This also applies to real life.
R
Retro_
Unconfirmed Member
No I agree.
I think there's definitely a discussion to be had about sexist representations of women in video games
I just think Dragon's Crown is a poor target or platform for that. I never got the impression Kamitani's design decisions were to pander or cater to a market or niche, which is where that becomes problematic in games. The exaggerated proportions are there for all characters in order to create a memorable visual identity for the game.
You have to look at it from a wider angle really. The sorc is designed to look like something you'd see on in a stripclub on halloween. The image is of a desireable, sexy female ready to please you at any given moment between a combo.
The dudes are designed like any other fantasy heroes. Buff, strong, ready to kill some monsters and save the day. Sure you could say they are "sexy" in some way, but that is not their main purpose as designs.
In a nutshell: both sexes in the game are designed to male audience. Which is perfectly reasonable because most of the people willing to buy a game like this are males! Perfectly understandable as well if a female thinks the designs look offensive and dumb if you look at them separately.
It's a hot button topic right now. Schreier made the right series of moves:
1) troll an artist
2) blow artist's reply completely out of proportion and post an inflammatory response without waiting for the Kamitani's explanation
3) Not admit any wrong doing or assume any responsibility in follow up posts once the damage is done.
The problem is that the sorceress has nothing to do with what any of this game's detractors are talking about. She is not indicative of lazy sexist design rampant in the game industry because this game doesn't represent the output of the game industry at large. People are failing to recognize that Vanillaware is a boutique developer that crafts very specific games with a glaringly obvious specificity and attention to detail. Assuming that Kamitani just went, "durrr BOOBS!" when designing the sorceress is willful ignorance. There is nothing lazy about this game except for the shallow criticism that has been dominating the discussion.
It's that whole "male power fantasy" argument, that both muscled male and curvy females appeal to men only, never women, and that it is therefore sexist. A reasonable but somewhat naive argument at best, but some people hold on to it like it's an Undeniable Universal Truth.
tearsofash
Member
This seems a little strange. I don't really think he owed an apology, but the explanation was a nice read. Not like it matters, I'm getting this game.
But only from Software Etc, they have dwarf swimwear preorder DLC.
But only from Software Etc, they have dwarf swimwear preorder DLC.
Chairmanchuck
Member
I always wonder how long such threads take till some, at least to me, ridiculous opinions pop up. I remember reading in the last Anita-thread that the spikes in Tomb Raider are phallic objects and when you die, it has some "special meaning"...
I just think Kamitani didnt have any need to apologize. I think everyone, who saw the other characters, can see, that everything is over the top...
I just think Kamitani didnt have any need to apologize. I think everyone, who saw the other characters, can see, that everything is over the top...
You made that up. It's mostly for men. Which is an undeniable truth.
a very mature attitude we should all strive to emulate.