Wickerbasket
Member
If you paid any attention to the conversation then maybe you would know.
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George Kamitani responds to Kotaku
- Thread starter LiK
- Start date
Askherserenity
Member
Just read about this "controversy" till now. Were people really that offended by the art in this game? Or did Kotaku just feel like getting lots of hits that day? I really can't understand how people can be so sensitive or something like this. Especially recently on the internet, people are making a huge deal about these minuscule things.
Was it about boobs being big? And how that is sexist? Did the article also mention how EVERYTHING ELSE in the game is also exaggerated to an incredible degree? Ugh, I really don't get it. Are people just tired of calling everything racist so everything has to be sexist now?
P.S.
I don't know if the Kotaku editor ended up telling the artist how he should be drawing or not but if he did, I just don't agree with that at all. It's fucking art.
Was it about boobs being big? And how that is sexist? Did the article also mention how EVERYTHING ELSE in the game is also exaggerated to an incredible degree? Ugh, I really don't get it. Are people just tired of calling everything racist so everything has to be sexist now?
P.S.
I don't know if the Kotaku editor ended up telling the artist how he should be drawing or not but if he did, I just don't agree with that at all. It's fucking art.
partyphone
Banned
Filled? Hardly.
LightofRohan
Member
That is true, but I'd be hard press to say that any character type from Japanese anime lends itself well to a western film/show verbatim. Their characters fit their environments/style and culture.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
This sounds so stupid but, 3 naked looking males sitting on each other can be seen as homoerotic. That doesn't mean it's bad though.
The writer has done the rightful thing...and jumped on twitter's echo chamber:
I'm personally shocked at how insulting and self-righteous Leigh Alexander has become. I remember her from years ago and always thought she had interesting perspectives, but she has completely lost it. She is nothing but hatred.
Air Zombie Meat
Member
I find it a little obnoxious too but I can only imagine the amount of hate mail she must get. It would twist my perspective as well.
Schobeleth
Member
This is exactly what happened with Kotaku, it's just them blowing this way out or proportion and inferring something completely different from what the artist intended. It's just click bait, pure and simple. The original article title was "Game Developers Really Need To Stop Letting Teenage Boys Design Their Characters" .... how, in ANY way, is that anything OTHER than click baiting? It's not only that but it's a complete insult to the game, the company, the artists, and everyone working on it.
Wait, he did? Was that in his letter, because I didn't see it.
kunonabi
Member
I think customization is a tool and nothing more. Do I see tons of custom characters in bikinis and swimwear? Absolutely, but most of the time it's the male characters in speedos and played more for laughs than anything else. You will certainly have some players that will try to and make characters fit their image of beauty but it can also work the other way. There is nothing stopping players from covering up their characters or taking any other sort of approach with them. Some people love putting tons of goofy items on their character and some players will take an existing character and turn them goth. Personally, I sort of come up with an alternate character in my head than try and customize the character to fit that image. I try to take an understated approach to my customized characters so that they don't look too out of place with the rest of the cast. That's just my preference though.
These are the kind of characters I did for VF5:FS:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v318/kunonabi/IMAG0089_zps1ba21b82.jpg
She is obviously showing quite a bit of skin but my intent was to do an mma fighter kind of look for her. There really isn't an athletic top so stuck with the bikini which was the closest thing. I could have gone with a t-shirt but wanted more of that stylish Japanese flair that you get with their pro wrestlers/shoot fighters. I gave her the short black hair since it fit better with the sporty image and reminded me of natsu from Rival Schools.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v318/kunonabi/IMAG0087_zps1ee8e9c9.jpg
Key word here was Spring. I wanted something fresh and fun but classic at the same time. So I tried to character who looked like she came from the countryside.
Both characters who designed with particular themes in mind. If I was actually just going for my personal sexual preferences neither of them would have looked this.
For comparisons sake if you want to see if my female approach is different than my approach with male characters:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v318/kunonabi/IMAG0090_zps6acf5652.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v318/kunonabi/IMAG0091_zps3f5321cc.jpg
As for Lara Croft you are making my point for me.
Yes, her assets aren't as prominent as they once were but in many ways her actual characterization has taken a step back which is what should matter.
The old Lara wasn't a particularly deep character or anything and they did play up her sex appeal but she was still a great character for women to look up to even if her marketing was sexualized. She was an intelligent, independent, rich, and well-respected archaeologist. Are those not admirable qualities for a man or woman? She was athletic, quick-thinking, sharp-witted and traveled the world whenever she saw fit. She wasn't dependent on anyone. If you watch a good deal of those Tomb Raider retrospectives you can see quite a few young women who looked up to her for these qualities and used her as inspiration.
Now let's look at Reboot Lara. It's true she wears pants now and has a smaller bust(although still quite sizable anyway) but is she any less sexualized? The game is still constantly focusing on her cleavage and her being covered in dirt and grime and violently tossed around can be just as fetishized as her wearing a wet suit. For most of the game is either crying, whining, and complaining or violently massacring hundreds or people as gruesomely as possible. It's incredibly inconsistent. What's worse is she doesn't come off as all that bright either. Sure she seems well-versed in history but she spends the entire game almost completely clueless as to what's going on when the player has figured it out hours ago. You can't help but shake your head when she finally puts the pieces together. Of course, for much of the game the peanut gallery is constantly screaming " You can do it!", You go girl", and screaming about how awesome she is that it all comes off as really forced and at the wost incredibly condescending.
Old Lara didn't need peoples admiration and acceptance, her life's purpose wasn't defined by guilt or a need to prove her parents right. She lived her life by her terms and nobody else's.
For the record, when I say old Lara I'm referring to her character before Crystal Dynamics got their paws on her.
tl:dr
What I'm trying to say people aren't looking at these characters closely and instead just assuming things based on superficial elements. It's like Gentlemen Prefer Blondes. On one hand you could just see it as a vehicle for two gorgeous women but on closer inspection it's actually an incredibly progressive and borderline feminist work for its time. Don't judge a book by it's cover regardless of how big or small the font size is.
It's pretty filled, actually.
bishopcruz
Member
Oh we know a lot about what women want in the west, we market to hem incredibly well. Now games it can be argued might be a bit different primarily because for a myriad of reasons, the bulk of people who bought and played games were males, and this goes from an era before the oversexualization of women in games, or at least to the degrees we are looking at now.
We have channels targeted at women, we have tons of magazines and movies targeted to them as well. I remember when Buffy and Angel were big on TV watching the ladies on some of the boards i was on do a shirtless scene counter for all of the hot dudes on that show. As for games, I figure the industry has to be giving women what they want in some manner because of the constantly growing numbers of female gamers. It's still heavily in the casual space, but the market is also proving that it's expanding elsewhere as well.
Schools only teach demonstrable and indisputable facts.
No no. I meant the diversity of genres and character types that dawned in manga after it became the leading entertainment form at some point in Japan. (was it after ww2, I can't recall now) You literally had stories for everyone. Stories about the everyday life of Japanese people, horror, sex, sports, depression, old people and anything you can name. The medium matured fast like nothing else and the range is still untouched.
Which is why I didn't present it as a fact, but as a recollection. I'm surely going to read on it further later on thanks to this discussion.
Huevos de Oro
Member
Work got in the way so I could only get to respond until now.
I do believe context matters in this case. Sorc's design is but a fragment of an entire body of work (Dragon's Crown art) that seems to be congruous and cohesive, at least from the point of view of someone like myself, who is a complete ignorant in art. After being linked to this here at GAF, I started to understand the amount of work (sometimes unnoticed) that can be put into something like this.
Of course, she gets so much shit it's probably unbearable. She puts on a tough face and attitude but nobody is immune to it. But she is literally just becoming everything she hates, but the opposite, in plain sight.
TryHardShounen
Banned
Oh look, our old controversial instigating friends Kotaku and their merry team of scrub journalists.
Come on. If you think Twitter is an echo chamber, you should see the thousands of nasty Twitter messages I've gotten in the past 72 hours.
i dunno why but Star Wars 'Imperial March' is playing in my head.
btw, I think Leigh is misunderstood on the internets.
Wickerbasket
Member
You were saying that female protagonist having big breasts isn't a female power fantasy because you doubt many women would want that.
I'm saying I don't think you should get to decide for women what they should want because it's just a different kind of sexism.
Fine Ham Abounds
Member
If this thread mixes both the discussions in here with the Leigh Alexander FAQ discussion in the other thread, I think we'll reach critical mass.
I can't understand how anyone honestly thinks people are dumb enough to not know what we're seeing. Some of us are convinced it's a problem, some of us aren't. Most of us have spelled out our reasons ad nauseum.
I'm out before I get plastered with more of Leigh's vitriol-infused stereotypes. I wish I could say she's being completely ignorant, but then it's not like I don't know why she's such an angry person.
I can't understand how anyone honestly thinks people are dumb enough to not know what we're seeing. Some of us are convinced it's a problem, some of us aren't. Most of us have spelled out our reasons ad nauseum.
I'm out before I get plastered with more of Leigh's vitriol-infused stereotypes. I wish I could say she's being completely ignorant, but then it's not like I don't know why she's such an angry person.
Context, inspiration, history and what other girls think of this is irrelevant. Those are all justifications for something so clearly absurd that it's hilarious to discuss. But those are the straws grown men with anime avatars grasp for on this day. I would concede they all do factor into a games art design up to a point, but lines can be crossed in which case common sense should win out. Should.
But the entertainment value of finding this niche group has made the frustration worthwhile in the end.
partyphone
Banned
What definition of "filled" are we going with here? Like what percentage?
Good god, I fucking hate this comic. I keep seeing it as some "undeniable, hard, unbeatable fact" or some shit.Guys don't generally complain because both the strong chiseled male physique and the hyper-sexualized female are male fantasies.
Chiseled, strong with mad abs men aren't exclusive male fantasies. Spartacus, 300 and that movie with greek Brad Pitt wearing a skirt aren't exactly men exclusive, ffs.
Fine Ham Abounds
Member
This is probably the worst thing anyone who isn't drive-by trolling has said in any of these threads. How can you have any discussion at all if you discount all of the above?
Delusibeta
Banned
So, your argument is "STFU" and you're just here to troll. OK then, please press Alt+F4.
SolidSnakex
Member
To be fair, Leigh has said that she likes DC's art.
startyourengine
Member
you are awesome.
Nice. Tremendous feminist scholarship exists, but be skeptical when simply uttering the words "patriarchy" or "sexism" is in itself prima facie. Somehow the popular understanding of feminist scholarship has compressed all of it, including the lunatic fringe, into one mess.
I thought I made it clear later that the basis of my hypothesis was that it's generally accepted as a male pleasing trait.
Why do people keep bringing up exclusivity in this discussion when it can't even be possible in any scenario. You will have overlapping interests and traits. This is different from intents and target audiences. (and besides Troy had that singer guy in it to balance out Muscle McPitt so everyone was happy)
I can certainly recognize some aspects of the "male power fantasy" but what turns me off a bit from the argument is that the implication that there isn't sexualization going on for both genders and that the designs appeal only to men.
Power and attractiveness are often correlated for both genders in the real world. Characters in games, protagonists especially, tend to get pushed to attractive extremes. Even when they aren't drop dead gorgeous you still see alot of "Hollywood Homely" characters. As far as I can see, the "power" in the male power fantasy comes from the fact that the male protagonist is usually the only one given any agency, personality, storyline, etc. That's why they appeal to some who want to use them as avatars. Except in the most exaggerated of examples, which often trend into satire or cartoony fun, the male protagonists don't look too much different than actors like Gerald Butler, Channing Tatum, Hugh Jackman, the guy who plays Thor or that guy who played the werewolf in Twilight. It's obvious that a non-insignificant number of women find these physiques attractive. They may not be attracted to the game as a whole because often the male protagonist is the only character worth a damn in the game. But that doesn't stop the character from being sexualized.
Furthermore, if we delve deeper in the role of these protagonists to serve as avatars, if the "hero" is to "get the girl", they have to look the part of someone a non-insignificant number of women would want to be gotten by. As such, I feel the issue with male power fantasy is less an issue of designs since both genders tend to be pushed to idealized, attractive representations but rather unequal distributions of agency, relevance and power within the scope of the game.
Power and attractiveness are often correlated for both genders in the real world. Characters in games, protagonists especially, tend to get pushed to attractive extremes. Even when they aren't drop dead gorgeous you still see alot of "Hollywood Homely" characters. As far as I can see, the "power" in the male power fantasy comes from the fact that the male protagonist is usually the only one given any agency, personality, storyline, etc. That's why they appeal to some who want to use them as avatars. Except in the most exaggerated of examples, which often trend into satire or cartoony fun, the male protagonists don't look too much different than actors like Gerald Butler, Channing Tatum, Hugh Jackman, the guy who plays Thor or that guy who played the werewolf in Twilight. It's obvious that a non-insignificant number of women find these physiques attractive. They may not be attracted to the game as a whole because often the male protagonist is the only character worth a damn in the game. But that doesn't stop the character from being sexualized.
Furthermore, if we delve deeper in the role of these protagonists to serve as avatars, if the "hero" is to "get the girl", they have to look the part of someone a non-insignificant number of women would want to be gotten by. As such, I feel the issue with male power fantasy is less an issue of designs since both genders tend to be pushed to idealized, attractive representations but rather unequal distributions of agency, relevance and power within the scope of the game.
Really sad development happening on Twitter right now. Leigh Alexander siding with Jason's perspective despite saying
"*To be honest, I kinda like the Dragon’s Crown art, Kamitami’s art in general. Boobs aren’t evil. Not everything needs to be realistic. It’s the idea that a critic invites homophobia by… being critical of art, and then it blows up into some huge boring body-policing diversion that drives me crazy."
just two days ago. Another case of someone building their arguments based on an inappropriate in-group (journalists) or against the perception of an out group (entitled gamers). What is it about game journalism that invites homogenous perspectives?
"*To be honest, I kinda like the Dragon’s Crown art, Kamitami’s art in general. Boobs aren’t evil. Not everything needs to be realistic. It’s the idea that a critic invites homophobia by… being critical of art, and then it blows up into some huge boring body-policing diversion that drives me crazy."
just two days ago. Another case of someone building their arguments based on an inappropriate in-group (journalists) or against the perception of an out group (entitled gamers). What is it about game journalism that invites homogenous perspectives?
Wickerbasket
Member
I was actually thinking that while reading his post, but I was so taken aback that I didn't know how to respond.
Girl gamers have been for this and against this. Context is important for and against this, as is history and inspiration. Is it exaggerated as tribute, homage or as meta commentary? We can't agree. All those points have been used for and against in this argument. If you want to make progress in support for this style you need to stop falling back on the ones that make us all roll our collective eyes in annoyment.
Just saying, they're huge! But we like it! would have been fine. Instead the continued and ridiculous justifications are delicious.
It's really a shame this post was seemingly overlooked (and thanks to the poster above for reposting.)
It is the best and most level-headed one posted here yet that fantastically contexualizes this entire issue. Great post!
Schobeleth
Member
You need to cover those female characters up, this is completely unacceptable. Put some of those man clothes on them.
EvilKatarn
Member
I'm just grasping at straws here but I want to say that this is hypocritical as fuck.
The argument this comic responds to is that "oh hey, men are objectified too". The point is that the male archetype presentation in most comics is -not- equivalent to the female archetype presentation in most comics. They are both stereotypical male fantasies, one re power, the other re sex.
LightofRohan
Member
Well said!
bishopcruz
Member
So can you just say "No sir, I don't like them?" and be done. There is a ton of justification and reasoning as to why they are harmful and evil in this thread as well, this is of course going to engender a response in the art's defense.
Also, why are the justifications ridiculous, but the attacks aren't?
jason has an internet time machine that only works when he wants it to. it's complicated.
Wickerbasket
Member
It's a terrible response to this thread though.
There are plenty of examples of men being objectified in the way she described at the end of her comic, particularly in Japanese games.
Delusibeta
Banned
I'm guessing Jason complained about this very thing before? What was the issue?
ragincajun77
Banned
If you are going to wage this war why not criticize Team Ninja? If there is a company that objectifies women it is them as every single female character has over-sized breasts that jiggle. In fact, they include options that allow you to increase the amount of jiggle. Don't you see that each of the character's are just over-exaggerations of some physical characteristic?
http://gameitall.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/dragonscrowncharacters.jpg
Unlike Team Ninja games, not all characters in Dragon's Crown are centered around their disproportionately large breasts. The female elf is young and innocent. The female fighter is huge and muscular. And yes, the female sorcerer has large breasts that jiggle when moves (as do actual breasts in real life). I don't think her design was based on a decision to appeal to pubescent male teens, but instead was a wink Frank Frazetta's sorceress in Fire and Ice and The Sorceress:
http://art-eater.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/09_art-eater_dragons_crown_vanillaware_sorceress_frank_frazetta_princess_teegra_fire_and_ice_ralph_bakshi.jpg
Because it wasn't quoted enough times, I'll oblige this great bit of piece to echo again.