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I'm not saying it wasnt done to titalate...because it was but I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with that. Sexiness isnt a bad thing and the actual character owns this sexiness and flaunts it well...it's not like she has big boobs and then spends most of the game avoiding getting groped or is simply there to be saved. She is out there living a life and doing her own thing. It's over the top...that is kinda the whole point.

It's possible for people to be very tired of hypersexualized females in video games. To the point that they begin critiquing the general trend and specific instances thereof. Titilation doesn't always add to art. Sometimes it feels artificial and distracting, though we may disagree about when those times are.

To be clear, I'm not offended by the designs, so I may not be part of the group you're directing your post to. I do, however, find them pretty embarrassing and pandering.

I don't whats the big deal here....especially now that the goddam creator explained his intention behind the designs...so unless you are caling him a liar, what is up? It's a reach to me.

1. Authorial intent should be part of our understanding of a work of art.

but

2. Authorial intent doesn't excuse the work itself from critique on multiple levels. An author may not *intend* to use a tired trope, stereotype, or any number of cliches, but still end up doing so.

 

[snorggy]

Do the people offended by the sorceress' boobs also get offended by giant boobs they see in real life? Or is it only offensive because this is videogames?

 

[LightofRohan]

I don't get why Kotaku has been obsessing with this issue lately, wasn't this what happened to RPS? (I don't know exactly). But it seems to be every other post on Kotaku now, to the point where I just been ignoring their blog. I'm all for developers/artists drawing/creating whatever the hell they want though...

...but I'm disallowed from engaging in these talks on these forums from my own personal thread ban list and I will try hard to honor that!

It's that whole "male power fantasy" argument, that both muscled male and curvy females appeal to men only, never women, and that it is therefore sexist. A reasonable but somewhat naive argument at best, but some people hold on to it like it's an Undeniable Universal Truth.

Yes this is my most detested arguments on the internet right now... but I'll follow my creed and shut up!

 

[Knux-Future]

Is there anything inherently wrong with creating a character that is sexy (in your own mind of course)?

That's where the disconnect is.
So even though he stated that this wasn't his sole intent (once again read the apology), let's say it was..

his goal was only to create a sexy character....

it that a bad thing? His goal in that case isn't to create a character that is sexist but rather a character that he thinks is sexy. Is that bad?

 

[mckmas8808]

Guys don't generally complain because both the strong chiseled male physique and the hyper-sexualized female are male fantasies.

So the chiseled man is not a female fantasy? And why would the woman in this game not be a female fantasy for many females?

 

[AlucardGV]

kotaku gotta love all dem clicks.

 

[Napalm_Frank]

I like boobs.

 

[LightofRohan]

Guys don't generally complain because both the strong chiseled male physique and the hyper-sexualized female are male fantasies.

http://www.shortpacked.com/comics/2011-12-02-sexy.png[IMG][/QUOTE]

*cringe*

That ... is a good ... point...

I can't do this.

[spoiler]That comic is so over used!!!!!!!![/spoiler]

But I respect your side and you all make great points.

 

[Superflat]

It's a hot button topic right now. Schreier made the right series of moves:

1) troll an artist
2) blow artist's reply completely out of proportion and post an inflammatory response without waiting for the Kamitani's explanation
3) Not admit any wrong doing or assume any responsibility in follow up posts once the damage is done.

The problem is that the sorceress has nothing to do with what any of this game's detractors are talking about. She is not indicative of lazy sexist design rampant in the game industry because this game doesn't represent the output of the game industry at large. People are failing to recognize that Vanillaware is a boutique developer that crafts very specific games with a glaringly obvious specificity and attention to detail. Assuming that Kamitani just went, "durrr BOOBS!" when designing the sorceress is willful ignorance. There is nothing lazy about this game except for the shallow criticism that has been dominating the discussion.

I never got the impression Kamitani's design decisions were to pander or cater to a market or niche, which is where that becomes problematic in games. The exaggerated proportions are there for all characters in order to create a memorable visual identity for the game.

Absolutely agree. All these pages and no progress in the overall discussion shows how overblown/non-issue/shallow this controversy is regarding the game, imo.

 

[Mario007]

You have to look at it from a wider angle really. The sorc is designed to look like something you'd see on in a stripclub on halloween. The image is of a desireable, sexy female ready to please you at any given moment between a combo.

The dudes are designed like any other fantasy heroes. Buff, strong, ready to kill some monsters and save the day. Sure you could say they are "sexy" in some way, but that is not their main purpose as designs.

In a nutshell: both sexes in the game are designed to male audience. Which is perfectly reasonable because most of the people willing to buy a game like this are males! Perfectly understandable as well if a female thinks the designs look offensive and dumb if you look at them separately.

I get your point, although you can easily say that in almost any fantasy setting it's female= sexy, male= buff. In fact that's what Kamitani seems to be saying while adding that he took it to the extreme in his art.

I would go back to the God of War example. You have people like Kratos or Zeus being probably the muscliest people alive and at the same time you have Aphrodite showing her tits all over the place. It works because it fits what the game is trying to achieve. Just like on TV you have shows like Game of Thrones where there's tons of gory violence and prolonged sex scenes.
Now if I was playing, say a Dead Space game and suddenly there's a room with a girl who doesn't seem too eager to put on clothes, then you can criticise that game for actively imposing a sexual stereotype and sexualising women in order to get people to buy it. I guess the Miranda example from ME is great to illustrate my mind. Having random shots of her ass while in conversation is clearly done to make her into a sexual object, as it doesn't fit with the clear style of the overall game.

 

[Chie Satonaka]

This is another reason that I refuse to give Kotaku any clicks, right here.

This "controversy" is completely fucking ridiculous. George's apology was exactly what I thought of the whole thing to begin with. It was obvious what happened here.

 

[Zen_Arcade]

It's possible for people to be very tired of hypersexualized females in video games. To the point that they begin critiquing the general trend and specific instances thereof. Titilation doesn't always add to art. Sometimes it feels artificial and distracting, though we may disagree about when those times are.

To be clear, I'm not offended by the designs, so I may not be part of the group you're directing your post to. I do, however, find
them pretty embarrassing and pandering.



1. Authorial intent should be part of our
understanding of a work of art.

but

2. Authorial intent doesn't excuse the work itself from critique on multiple levels. An author may not *intend* to use a tired trope, stereotype, or any number of cliches, but still end up doing so.

There's nothing wrong with not liking an art style but a good portion of this thread is people complaining that the game is sexist despite the fact that all of the characters have the same overblown style to them.

 

[zoukka]

it that a bad thing? His goal in that case isn't to create a character that is sexist but rather a character that he thinks is sexy. Is that bad?

Nobody is saying this game in a void is bad. This discussion gets its fuel from the industry in general.

So the chiseled man is not a female fantasy? And why would the woman in this game not be a female fantasy for many females?

Some of you people...

Sure a chiseled man can be a female fantasy.
However most chiseled men in games are designed to please males.
This fact does not change if females happen to like chiseled males.

Apply some critical thinking pls.

I would go back to the God of War example. You have people like Kratos or Zeus being probably the muscliest people alive and at the same time you have Aphrodite showing her tits all over the place. It works because it fits what the game is trying to achieve. Just like on TV you have shows like Game of Thrones where there's tons of gory violence and prolonged sex scenes.
Now if I was playing, say a Dead Space game and suddenly there's a room with a girl who doesn't seem too eager to put on clothes, then you can criticise that game for actively imposing a sexual stereotype and sexualising women in order to get people to buy it. I guess the Miranda example from ME is great to illustrate my mind. Having random shots of her ass while in conversation is clearly done to make her into a sexual object, as it doesn't fit with the clear style of the overall game.

Hmm. I get your point, but even though if the sexualized female is a trope, it still can offend people just like another case which is not self aware. They both feed the same flames.

 

[BurnOutBrighter]

Love that he thanked Kotaku for this manufactured controversy. Lots of people know about Dragon's Crown now.

 

[thumb]

Is there anything inherently wrong with creating a character that is sexy (in your own mind of course)?

*Inherently* wrong? Of course not. I don't think anyone, myself included, has argued that. Also, from my perspective, this is not a moral issue, so I would try not to use moral terms like "wrong" or "right" in describing my critiques of the art.

So even though he stated that this wasn't his sole intent (once again read the apology), let's say it was..

his goal was only to create a sexy character....

it that a bad thing? His goal in that case isn't to create a character that is sexist but rather a character that he thinks is sexy. Is that bad?

I should probably ask: What do you mean by "bad"?

 

[Shinta]

"Harmful piece of art"*
- J. Schreir 4/26/13

*

Spoiler

yes ... he really said that

 

[Zen_Arcade]

However most chiseled men in games are designed to please males.

How do you know it wasn't designed to cater to both? People keep saying this like every guy is constantly fantasizing about having rippling muscles. Its based completely on assumption.

 

[Napalm_Frank]

Love that he thanked Kotaku for this manufactured controversy. Lots of people know about Dragon's Crown now.

Yup. I am happy for these threads/articles/whatever cause it means a sales boost :3

 

[antibolo]

Oh for fuck's sake, that Batman is creepy because of the messed up facial expression, NOT because he's not buff and chiselled. That shitty comic does not prove its point AT ALL.

 

[thumb]

There's nothing wrong with not liking an art style but a good portion of this thread is people complaining that the game is sexist despite the fact that all of the characters have the same overblown style to them.

Understood. I would argue that people perceive the sexualization of the male and female characters differently (I know I do), but I would not argue that the males are absolutely unsexualized.

I think the larger point would be that some of the female characters feel like just another instance of a tired trend. The presence of arguably sexualized males doesn't somehow mean the females don't count as an instance of said trend.

 

[AlucardGV]

How do you know it wasn't designed to cater to both? People keep saying this like every guy is constantly fantasizing about having rippling muscles. Its based completely on assumption.

everybody knows what men wants. if female, boobs. if male, muscle.
nobody knows what women wants.

 

[Wickerbasket]

everybody knows what men wants. if female, boobs. if male, muscle.
nobody knows what women wants.

Japanese RPG developers seem to develop their main characters to cater towards female fans.

They all look like male JPOP idols.

 

[bishopcruz]

Do I think he's designed to be attractive? Sure. If we remove all context from gender relations in the global community, that immediately does end all conversation, but "a man does it" is not really a proper response to accusations of poor female character design.

But the question then becomes poor design by WHOSE standards? The argument often becomes that the objectification, or sexual design of female characters is hurtful to some or to society as a whole, and the impression that is often given is that females are objectified to the exclusion of men in these games, yet one cannot point out that men are also personifications of their attractive qualities as well.

I see all the time this idea that male characters are made to be attractive to men, and female characters are also made to be attractive to men, as if there is no overlap in what the genders consider attractive for different reasons. There are more than a few women who like putting themselves in the role of a sexy/badass character, just as men like putting themselves in the role of a sexy/badass dude. How is pointing out the existence of both sides of the coin something that can't be discussed? It seems a bit silly.

Dragon's Crown is a Japanese take on classic fantasy art motifs, the links have been thrown around in the various threads on GAF showing the influences that can be seen just from the trailers. I would say the designs are quite far away from 'poor' for any of the mains, and by quite a bit.

 

[Freshmaker]

Unless there are two or more huge muscle dudes together, then it's homoerotic and possibly homophobic.

They can be together, but they better be hitting each other with swords.

That aside, I'm sick of "memorable visual identies" they all tend to look like large thigh-ed muffintop gnarly. yes, it looks unique. Yes, I therefore have no interest in said title.

 

[zoukka]

How do you know it wasn't designed to cater to both? People keep saying this like every guy is constantly fantasizing about having rippling muscles. Its based completely on assumption.

It draws from decades, even centuries of archetypes and classic designs. Whether the trope male hero on a journey happens to please a group of females doesn't change the fact that it's main purpose is to invite you to relate to this journey that usually includes the hero winning against odds, growing up after a defeat and finally conquering the enemy and getting the girl. Now maybe a girl is the "you" here, but we all know who this trope is aimed at and why it's used in this industry.

It's not about the muscles alone. But they symbolize power. Enormous breasts are a trait that males want to see. I doubt many women would first think of having giant breasts if they imagined themselves as heroines in any given story.

 

[Zen_Arcade]

Understood. I would argue that people perceive the sexualization of the male and female characters differently (I know I do), but I would not argue that the males are absolutely unsexualized.

I think the larger point would be that some of the female characters feel like just another instance of a tired trend. The presence of arguably sexualized males doesn't somehow mean the females don't count as an instance of said trend.

Dude, most other males in the video game character lexicon are bulky/muscular beefcake dudes just like a lot of women are projected with sexuality as part of their identity. They're two sides of the same coin.

I totally understand being tired of the look, but we should save words like sexism for times when its actually apt and not to describe an art style where every one is created equally just because we don't find it personally satisfying.

 

[Hero]

It's not about the muscles alone. But they symbolize power. Enormous breasts are a trait that males want to see. I doubt many women would first think of having giant breasts if they imagined themselves as heroines in any given story.

How many women have you talked to?

 

[ixix]

i might apologize if i thought there were any chance of anyone here growing up and learning something over the course of this thread

as it is all i can hope for is that you look back at this in 10 years and feel some kind of shame

I believe very strongly that a person's identity should not be determined solely by their chromosomes. I do not feel that the genitalia with which someone is born should function as a form of destiny. I think that all people should be judged as individuals, and that their ethnicity, their gender, and their sexuality should not preclude them from engaging in whatever endeavor they elect to pursue. I fully support the idea of broadening media representations so that individuals of widely disparate backgrounds can feel that they are represented within the broader narrative of their culture.

In short, I'm a feminist.

You claim this label as well, but rather than taking to heart the grievances of minorities whose ideals you claim to represent and systematically attempting to advance causes which instantiate real world changes in the ways that they are portrayed, are treated, and are allowed to pursue their ambitions you are taking their lived experiences and identities and fashioning them into a crude rhetorical bludgeon for purposes of amusement and self-aggrandizement.

I will not presume to know why you are doing this, and I see no reason to speculate on the matter. All I know is that you are actively alienating people sympathetic to the ideals you claim to hold dear and making it needlessly difficult to engage people substantively on a topic of wide societal importance which is already highly complex and multi-faceted, and in so doing you are detrimental to the advancement of the causes to which you claim nominal fealty.

I will also not presume to tell you to stop. But I sincerely think that you should ask yourself whether your behavior is congruous with your stated ideals and objectives, because your observable actions are wildly out of alignment with the ends you claim to pursue.

This is the first and last thing I intend to say on this matter.

 

[zoukka]

How many women have you talked to?

See this is why people are bailing out of these fucking threads.

 

[RMI]

I will also not presume to tell you to stop. But I sincerely think that you should ask yourself whether your behavior is congruous with your stated ideals and objectives, because your observable actions are wildly out of alignment with the ends you claim to pursue.

He is just trolling, and has said as much.

 

[antibolo]

everybody knows what men wants. if female, boobs. if male, muscle.
nobody in the west knows what women wants.

FTFY.

They don't have problems with giving women what they want in Japan. The bishounen trope is very successful in any media over there. Some manga/anime/video games that may appear mainly targeted to males by the western eye are actually more successful with women than men.

OK so Dragon's Crown is probably not a good example, but even then it has that slender Knight character.

 

[Wickerbasket]

See this is why people are bailing out of these fucking threads.

Because it's filled with guys speaking about what women should want?

 

[ixix]

He is just trolling, and has said as much.

I will readily confess that I am assuming that some degree of sincerity exists behind the facade.

 

[spandexmonkey]

Enormous breasts are a trait that males want to see. I doubt many women would first think of having giant breasts if they imagined themselves as heroines in any given story.

Projecting much?

 

[zoukka]

Because it's filled with guys speaking about what women should want?

I'd blame one-liner drive-by's a bit more.

Projecting much?

Well from what I remember from school, breast fixation ceased to be a maternal phenomena and was transformed into a patriarch thingy a long time ago.

And then there's my common sense trying to put together how these magical H-cup mammaries would benefit this female hero on her quest.

 

[erpg]

I'm glad we're back on track with skin deep arguments. Thanks, Jason.

 

[Wickerbasket]

I'd blame one-liner drive-by's a bit more.

Of course you would.

 

[aeolist]

I will readily confess that I am assuming that some degree of sincerity exists behind the facade.

i am sincerely disgusted by the majority of attitudes presented and sincerely doubtful that anything said here will make any kind of difference to anyone

that said if you were offended by my statements i will apologize since you seem like a reasonable human being with non-cartoony opinions

 

[ragincajun77]

The fact that he brought up Atlus makes me think that he got in trouble over the reaction to the dwarf art. So that would explain why he's so apologetic.

Man that is such freaking bullshit. He should not have to apologize to anyone for his artistic choices. Sure there is probably a fair bit of misogyny in the Video game industry, but there is no reason to make Kamitani a martyr to prove that point. Sexuality has been an integral part of art from time immemorial, but you are going to pick a light-hearted fantasy based video game to try and change that?

I swear Kotaku is just a whore house for clicks that is no better than The Sun and The National Enquirer. I loved when Hideki Kamiya called a spade a spade by describing them as fucking garbage and asking if a staff writer over there he eats shit. Link for the inquiring minds:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=507443

 

[LightofRohan]

FTFY.

They don't have problems with giving women what they want in Japan. The bishounen trope is very successful in any media over there. Some manga/anime/video games that may appear mainly targeted to males by the western eye are actually more successful with women than men.

OK so Dragon's Crown is probably not a good example, but even then it has that slender Knight character.

Is it a tad bit sexist to decide that woman would prefer the more feminine males that are depicted in Japan anime over the more masculine characters in the west?

I find most people are pushing their preference over the equality/benefit of their gender. I've yet to meet a female, that would prefer that flamboyant Batman over the traditional batman. And did not hear any scoffs of disgust when Captain America emerged from his Buff-Man-Capsule in the film.

It's totally acceptable if you are attracted to this pseudo male/female characters, but it's just as sexist as assuming all woman like the masculine type as well.

Spoiler

OK IM done posting here, I PROMISE!

 

[zoukka]

Of course you would.

Yeah because the compelling arguments in favour of them would be?

 

[Shinta]

Of course you would.

Guys, guys, please. Let's focus on what matters here. George Kamitani is harming Jason with his artwork, and he needs to stop!

Stop harming Jason!

 

[Deleted member 47027]

Guys, guys, please. Let's focus on what matters here. George Kamitani is harming Jason with his artwork, and he needs to stop!

Stop harming Jason!

? but Jason just posted the whirlwind titties gif again on twitter

 

[Shinta]

? but Jason just posted the whirlwind titties gif again on twitter

Spoiler

sarcasm

 

[Wickerbasket]

Yeah because the compelling arguments in favour of them would be?

They are short, and to the point.

This thread is filled with guys speaking about what women should want, the shortness of that statement doesn't make it any less true.

You, in particular, are guilty of this.

 

[zoukka]

Is it a tad bit sexist to decide that woman would prefer the more feminine males that are depicted in Japan anime over the more masculine characters in the west?

It's an interesting discussion at least. One that has deep roots in the manga and the incredible diversity found in it that's not matched in anywhere else outside Japanese comics.

This thread is filled with guys speaking about what women should want, the shortness of that statement doesn't make it any less true.

You, in particular, are guilty of this.

I was talking about well known tropes and what they aim to do. There was no projecting in that at all. I have no idea what women specifically would want out of a relatable hero, but I sure can isolate which traits come from trying to appealing to men!

Wickerbasket version: You are wrong.

 

[Deleted member 47027]

Spoiler

sarcasm

Spoiler

me too, but he did

 

[aeolist]

They are short, and to the point.

This thread is filled with guys speaking about what women should want, the shortness of that statement doesn't make it any less true.

it's also filled with ridiculous strawman arguments

i guess that's a pretty short statement too

 

[Wickerbasket]

it's also filled with ridiculous strawman arguments

i guess that's a pretty short statement too

What does that have to do with what I said?

 

[aeolist]

What does that have to do with what I said?

what do your posts have to do with any actual arguments being presented here?