Which is why the character is Batman, characterizing western comics (is my guess).
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George Kamitani responds to Kotaku
- Thread starter LiK
- Start date
Which is why the character is Batman, characterizing western comics (is my guess).
bishopcruz
Member
But that is also assuming that the comic's author has the "correct" view of that objectification. Again by personal experience, but I have know quite a few geek girls who revel in not only the outfits and atttudes of female comic characters, but love how 'hot' the males are. Yet again and again it's assumed that the objectification of women is worse somehow. See that's the thing, people have different views. It's funny how the world works.
It is an echo chamber because up to the date you disagree with Kamitani's response, you are obviously continuing ranting online about it and you have yet failed to point out why you disagree with his points.
And no, a random nutbab on twitter saying "Dem bitchdykes are runining my hobby!" doesnt cancel all the arguments presented on Neogaf by both sides of the argument.
It was actually four hours of waiting.
SixMachine
Member
Nightwing would appeal to any readers who wanted a sexy bishonen Batman honestly. Before the comic shop I worked at closed down, a lot of female readers would pick up Nightwing. It might have to do with the fact that he has a sleek slim build and a tight suit that hugs his butt cheeks. Also the artist usually like drawing crotch shots and splits for him because like Spider-Man crotch shots and splits means they have some acrobatic ability. Though that doesn't take away from anyone else liking him. As a straight male I like that he kicks ass with those kali sticks and I usually like every animated representation of Dick Grayson like in Teen Titans and Young Justice.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
Yes it can be. But it's funny that some people are stating that all men want a woman with 36 EE breast as if they know all men. Why are some people making this assumption?
But we have quantifiable data on audiences, writers and developers being mainly men in these fields/mediums. Men making entertainment to other men. And you are questioning the likelihood of it being a biased design ecosystem?
It's a generalization based on the current archetypically ideal body types and social memes.
Delusibeta
Banned
Agreed, but people seem to be annoyed because a critic wrote a piece objecting to a certain hypersexualized depiction of a female character. Why isn't the critic allowed to have "a different view"? Funny how he's immediately accused of censorship.
What are you talking about? It's hypocritical for me to write an article about what happened and then write another article when we have more of Kamitani's side of the story? You're nuts if you think I should have waited until today to address this issue at all.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
So are the buff guys in games not a female pleasing trait?
*applaud*
Wickerbasket
Member
I think people are more annoyed at the tone of his original post. I mean, look at this title for starters:
Which is followed by this:
Journalism!
Pop quiz! Where's this character from?
Can you please write in clear terms as what you are asking/implying, if you are even asking me anything concrete. Helps with handling the zillion sarcastic/one-liner/joke posts.
EvilKatarn
Member
No, I think you should have at least let us know that you'd gotten a longer fleshed out apology from Kamitan instead of "sitting on it for a few days" as you so well put it yourself. Those few days resulted in shit being spewed on the internet. Shit you could have prevented by saying you had gotten a long apology which you were in the process of having translated.
I realize translating Japanese is a hell of a task, but basically you were withholding information that let people keep using the whole "homophobe" card, among other things.
And if you didn't get it, the hypocritical part was the one about internet media being superquick, where you couldn't wait four hours and then sitting on another, highly important story in that string of events.
More like Opinion!
Wickerbasket
Member
More like shitty blog post.
LightofRohan
Member
So is your solution to force those men to make more comics that aren't focused on men? Or to encourage more females to get into the comic business? Being in the "art industry", I don't see much holding back females from creating their own comicbook lines or getting into existing series.
And a lot of the comic book artists I know are sleazy-horney guys (the more mainstream ones I've met), to force them to be gender equal is kind of silly.
Shit I have a bigender friend that started up her own graphic novel and game based on it.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
And why is that a problem? This has been a piece of human understanding for 1000s of years. Why it is bad now all of a sudden?
This is a corker of a post. I almost took issue with your last paragraph because there are an awful lot of games / genres that crossover between genders, but I'm certain that you understand that and I'd just be nitpicking your phrasing.
You are misunderstanding.
On Tuesday afternoon, Kamitani apologized to me via Facebook message. We updated the story with his comments. Then, because I wanted more of his side of the story, I sent him questions via e-mail through our guy in Japan. That's what took a few days. We got it yesterday (IIRC), asked Atlus for permission to republish it in its entirety, and finally got the OK this morning.
I answered to you already two pages ago:
"Buff" is an empowering trait and I dare say it's mostly aimed at men in this industry.
Mr_Antimatter
Member
I dunno, looking at comics focused toward females, guys don't look like uber-buff linebackers, but rather, more athletic, flexible, etc. More like a male gymnast or swimmer.
Sometimes they even look very androgynous, going by stuff like Shojo manga.
In Dc, the Wizard looks the closest to female targeted fanservice. Long flowing hair, soft features, etc.
Yes, but I kinda dislike the "If I'm gonna get the hots for Batman" part. Who is the artist supposed to be to decide what women like and whatnot? Girls like ripped, strong, men and delicate looking guys, among other stuff of course, which is why I think the whole "Team Edward/Jacob" thing was so successful. The characters catered to the liking of some of the audience by the autorship of a woman.
What was the need of showing Thor without a shirt and showing off his mad abs and chiseled body in the movie? To give some eye candy to some of the audience, which at least, I didn't mind, but then again, someone might have felt bothered by that, good thing I don't go for the "Scherier approach" of making a big deal of it if only one person is bothered by something.
Metroidvania
People called Romanes they go the house?
While not a certainty by any means, I'm sure some women would view idealized body types in the same 'power' fantasy that men do with their superhero counterparts, and would see the chiseled males as equally desirable 'sex' fantasies.
Treating her argument as something as indicative of the entire female collective consciousness on comics is what bothers me about it. Not that everyone uses it as such, but is has been presented that way at times.
IMO, another portion of the dissonance of gender readership in comics comes from not having female lead characters with a real sense of uninterrupted agency (i.e. not being rescued constantly, etc.)
While this gender disconnect also exists in games, it does not appear to be (as? not entirely sure on all of the info out) present in Dragon's Crown.
It's referring to the disconnect between publishing the story/opinion piece on the Sorceress before waiting for a response from Kamitani, while the latter quote is regarding the elf (who is not sexualized in the same way), which was apparently not put up for some time, especially considering how it could be used as a way to show that not all of the characters were designed by a '14' year old boy.
fake edit: But it appears to be something else.
edit2: nvm.
The writer has done the rightful thing...and jumped on twitter's echo chamber:
from a self- identified gaming journalist
Giolon
Member
I'm still waiting for you to address your drive-by assertion that anybody who likes the designs of the Sorceress are playing into and promoting lolicon fantasy (code-word for pedophilia).
Delusibeta
Banned
The point is that the male character described in that comic that's been bandied about is indeed present in Dragon's Crown.
ciridesu said:
As many seem to be praising this post i'll just say it's a bunch of a bullshit.
And? What do you people fucking expect. He could say you are in the "echo-chamber" of NeoGAF, Reddit or whatever feminist hating corner of the internet. Not only that, but you really think these people don't get opposing views on Twitter? They get it all day long. Let's stick to the arguments.
Mr_Antimatter
Member
I think you mean elf.
The writer has done the rightful thing...and jumped on twitter's echo chamber:
So what is this now? Shaming people who'd like to identify themselves as "gamers"?
Firstly, how and in what context does one "identify" oneself as gamer?
Secondly, why would there be a uniformity in opinion or taste among "gamers"? I mean are they some sub-species where be it right or wrong or purely based on opinion act like the Borg?
People may have lashed out and perhaps part, if not most of it, was crass/crude. However, to paint all the "gamers" as some sort of uncouth sub humans incapable of propriety is flat out repugnant.
This situation is somewhat reminiscent of Arthur Gies' twitter BS when he vilified NeoGAF during the Adam Orth incident. He kept on brushing reasonable counterpoints aside pretending they did not exist. Similar thing is happening right now. Ego, what a fragile thing it is.
Well, your effete dismissal has certainly convinced me.
EvilKatarn
Member
So you're saying journalism happened? Fine, I apologize.
There's a cause I can get behind. Not if you're a supposed gaming journalist though, that's disgusting.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
While that's true, not every character are buff like the Gears of War guys. Most male characters in games are buff, yet lean and athletic.
I remember people on GAF getting pissed off that some video game characters were getting too big, bulky, and bald. Many starting calling them space marines.
But most males have an athletic build that most women tend to like or at least that's what I see when I walk into stores and see the magazine covers.
bishopcruz
Member
But you are assuming that a biased design ecosystem automatically equates into sexism. That's problematic. Due to a whole slew of historical factors comics in the united states ended up being primarily about the super hero genre, the genre that by its nature was targeted at young boys. As the average age of these readers increased over time, and especially with the ability to put sexual themes into comics increased, books that had, for pretty much ever been aimed at boys continued to be written by men. It's not much of a shocker. Now what does happen is that we do get females who get into superhero comics, as readers and writers, but the audience, and the basic concept of these comics has been about wish fulfillment for what, 70 years by now? By the very nature of the beast that is superhero comics, you are going to have less females interested in working in that genre of art.
There is a reason that when young girls started getting into comics en masse it was as a result of comics specifically aimed at them, usually ones that came from Japan. I don't consider those comics to be particularly sexist, the girls in them are all attractive (ugly pretty girls at worst), some very sexual, and the guys are often a set of very common personality traits and usually have at least 2 if not more guys chasing them throughout the series. These books were made for a female audience. But here is the funny thing, a lot of those main character males still have tons of traits that most guys would consider positive, or as part of a fantasy fulfillment. They are attractive, badass, a little rough around the edges, at times intelligent, go getters and the like.
In that same way, female comic book characters have tons of positive qualities that women and girls can latch on to as well. Positive qualities are not mutually exclusive.
Oh my god, how true is that! Yesterday it was a national holiday in my country so I had some free time and read some essays about feminism and sexuality. Specifically about pornography, something that to a layman would be uncontroversial to acknowledge as one of the most problematic points of women objectification and sexism, but there is no consensus amidst feminist scholars.
I'm not claiming to have solutions. If the ecosystem is male dominated, it's harder for women to get into it for sure. I wouldn't force anyone to do anything. Encouraging more women to take part sounds good to me.
From what I saw at art school and in my games development studies, the girls and women seemed to always prefer the tall, skinny, long haired type of males. Or at least those were the ones they drew everyday making out with each other
I know it supports my point a bit too well, but I can't remember many buff guys being drawn at all.You are not wrong.
Delusibeta
Banned
Nope, he's pretty damn explicit that he's talking about the sorceress.
you got "thousands" of twitter messages? Really? "Thousands"?
Come on man, don't be so daft as to throw the word "angry" around when talking about a woman in this of all discussions.
I'm not trying to take away your game. I'm not trying to kill the franchise or see Mr. Kamitani fired.
Serious question, if the sorceress had been drawn less "exaggerated" how many of you (aside from the obvious ones) would have complained that her boobs weren't big enough? I doubt many. You'd have you game, the article never written and everybody happy. But obviously, somewhere the design took a turn that offends some people. STOP! I see you building up the gears of defense (context, history, inspiration again) a piece of art doesn't always have those luxuries. Sometimes they need to be judged on their own merit. The bottom line is that it does offend some people. You can't backtrack to find some justification for why it shouldn't offend us, you need to start from, ok it does, what can we do?
But you're just going to say you don't have to do anything because you like it. Because you don't realize at the end of the day you're just fighting for a potentially good game for the wrong reasons. The defense of this has gone so far we start to wonder, is this the most important part of the game to you guys? I can't let my 4-year old daughter play this game because more important than the art, combat, story or lore are the boobs?
It's just sad, because I think in the end this style only limits the audience and success of the game, not helps it. That's a different debate though.
bishopcruz
Member
So you are surprised that people have different views on a controversial subject. Or that others make take issues with the basis upon which one's scholarship is built?
I'm not claiming to have solutions. If the ecosystem is male dominated, it's harder for women to get into it for sure. I wouldn't force anyone to do anything. Encouraging more women to take part sounds good to me.
From what I saw at art school and in my games development studies, the girls and women seemed to always prefer the tall, skinny, long haired type of males. Or at least those were the ones they drew everyday making out with each other
Sure, some do. Perhaps a lot of those going into game development are more likely to be influenced by anime visual tropes and so as a result a lot more of that is coming out in their work. Influence is an interesting beast, what people considered sexy 30 years ago, is not considered so now. Buff was gone for a while, word is it's making a comeback, who knows. I know women who like buff dudes, men of slighter feminine builds, and a whole bunch of different types. Again, people are different.
Which is as it should be. It's a discussion among thinking people with plenty of perspectives.
I'm not disagreeing with anything particular here. But I still don't believe there's a balance in western comics nor videogames as where this subject goes.
Sorry but this is a load of utter bullshit. Nothing about the design even remitely "out of place" compared to other designs in the game. It would be one thing if she looked that way while everyone else looked normal, but thats not the case. Every character male and female in this game is exagerrated in some way. Sorceress design is consistant with the rest of the game.
Fine Ham Abounds
Member
Are you are saying the entire discussion, all points given by everyone, including the opinions and backup provided by the parties I would assume most relevant to this discussion (women) is pointless because there could never be a discussion worth having without people rigidly adhering to your personal list of acceptable arguments?
Well, ok, then why are you even here? Do you think you can actually make people who feel this is worthy of an open discussion because - surprise - it may actually affect someone come around to your side by telling them to shut up?
And no, I can't say "They're huge, but we like it". Surely, I've already conceded the design is aimed at a particular demographic, I'm not sure how anyone could argue otherwise. But real women come in all shapes and sizes, and I will not demean real women by knee-jerk calling large breasts ridiculous and offensive without delving into the context at hand.
Also, technically, I don't particularly like them. Breasts don't do much for me, if you really want to be base and frank. I am well aware of how ridiculous the character looks (and especially animates). It's a cartoon character, and I'm not yet convinced she is presented in a way that is harmful, especially considering she is but one unique part of a body of differently represented characters within the same particular work. Maybe I might be convinced otherwise by playing the game, or maybe I will be convinced otherwise by this discussion; that's why I'm here, to read the opinions of others and try to understand well presented details. If that's ok with you.
Delusibeta
Banned
To troll.