Napalm_Frank
Member
What culture are we talking about again?
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George Kamitani responds to Kotaku
- Thread starter LiK
- Start date
What culture are we talking about again?
The same happened with me I kept reading expecting to reach some of that nastiness and finally quit.
The problem I have with some people criticizing this game and art, is that they are talking about the sorceress design as if she was the only design/archetype presented in the whole game.
There is the amazon and elf (females). There is the knight, the dwarf, and the wizard (males). And then there's the NPC characters. Some are greatly exaggerated and others aren't. These aren't some lazy designs. And it's nice to see the diversity.
I am not saying that people can't find fault in the individual designs or anything. I agree with the general sentiment about sexism in gaming, but I don't think this particular game should be the focus of this intense sexism discussion.
There is the amazon and elf (females). There is the knight, the dwarf, and the wizard (males). And then there's the NPC characters. Some are greatly exaggerated and others aren't. These aren't some lazy designs. And it's nice to see the diversity.
I am not saying that people can't find fault in the individual designs or anything. I agree with the general sentiment about sexism in gaming, but I don't think this particular game should be the focus of this intense sexism discussion.
Ironic, isn't it?
BronsonLee
Member
To be perfectly blunt, you personally destroyed any potential discussions worth having all on your own. Wear that badge.
Ragingnight
Member
How is that an accusation? Its a statement and its true. Some people are like that, doesn't mean that he is say that you are.
I'm gonna appoint myself King Solomon. When I started seeing people pushing through, huffing and puffing on some No-good-sir-you-don't-know-a-damn-thing-about-lolicon shit I was laughing my ass off. But if the term specifically applies to a style directed at pedophiles as some here are suggesting I can see why they're upset. For real, the Sorceress design is extremely sexualized. But it exaggerates the features of a full-figured woman, not a girl. A "youthful face" is standard for almost every male-authored, sexualized image of a woman. So from the sidelines, I see where you're coming from on the lolicon stuff, as I was legitimately laughing, too. But looking into it, I concede the point of those who are saying its a meaningful distinction in this case.
Jathaine
Member
LightofRohan
Member
Woah, where do you live? Syria? I've not encountered this where I'm from.
This thread saddens me. 
It's funny, when I first saw pictures/videos of the Sorceress I didn't immediately think "OH WOW, LOOK AT THOSE MASSIVE BREASTS!!!". I admired the unique art-style and that same belief extends to the rest of the cast [especially the Knight and the detail that goes into everything, right down to his walking animation]. I could tell that it was Kamitani's art since he loves exaggerating certain aspects of character design in his games, and I love that about him. It's why I have such a fondness towards Odin Sphere/Muramasa.
...Then I read all of the negative comments. People yelling/screaming about how Sorceress's design "objectifies/degrades" women, among other things. If you don't like the art-style that's absolutely fine, you are entitled to your opinion.
It's a bit regrettable, though, that George Kamitani had to publicly apologize and explain the reasoning for his creative vision. It never should have needed to happen in the first place.
It's funny, when I first saw pictures/videos of the Sorceress I didn't immediately think "OH WOW, LOOK AT THOSE MASSIVE BREASTS!!!". I admired the unique art-style and that same belief extends to the rest of the cast [especially the Knight and the detail that goes into everything, right down to his walking animation]. I could tell that it was Kamitani's art since he loves exaggerating certain aspects of character design in his games, and I love that about him. It's why I have such a fondness towards Odin Sphere/Muramasa.
...Then I read all of the negative comments. People yelling/screaming about how Sorceress's design "objectifies/degrades" women, among other things. If you don't like the art-style that's absolutely fine, you are entitled to your opinion.
It's a bit regrettable, though, that George Kamitani had to publicly apologize and explain the reasoning for his creative vision. It never should have needed to happen in the first place.
ReeseHoward
Banned
What does it say about these games journalists that their first response to the dwarf pictures were "he must be calling him gay!!!"?
Sure! That's why I apologized. I don't mean to say that anyone who likes the sorceress is a pedophile. I really don't care who likes the design. As amusing as it was to see Twitterers with anime butt/breast avatars sending me nasty messages about lolicon.
This thread saddens me.
Did you read the thread? Most people, jschreier aside, agree with you.
The discussion has already gone beyond this game and this one character and that's a good thing. But you're right - this game is consistent in that it exaggerates a different set of physical features for each character. The amazon is all legs and ass, the knight dude is all shoulders, we know what the sorceress is...
Seriously, what other interpretation is there when combined with that translation of text?
Schobeleth
Member
See, look at that. GO AMERICA! I understand everyone in the gaming media is trying to shield the world from horrendous games like Dragon's Crown but generally we're all in agreement that the game is in no way meant to be objectifying women, it's just meant to be exaggerated and stylized, and that saying these stylized body proportions being wrong and or showing off these assets being wrong is also equally offensive. Did I cover everything?
I didn't mean the people posting here, but the reason for the thread [the apology from Kamitani].
Ahh, then yes, I agree.
They take their anime very seriously. You should know your audience!
aaaaaaand you're wrong again. you never learn, do you?
A "sexual object" that is as empowered as her male counterpart and that's before remembering that her outrageous proportions only exist in the realm of fantasy, something that most "gamers" can tell apart from reality, unless Leigh Alexander has convinced you otherwise.
And this culture you speak of is affected far less, if at all, by a fantastical self empowered unrealistically proportioned sorceress than real world issues such as birth control, reproductive rights etc.
The game is Japanese and once again, their daily cultural pertaining to gender notwithstanding, their adult animes (such as witchblade, sekirei etc) portray generously well endowed women being capable of biting back just as hard if not harder than men.
I have already mentioned this before, but I think it's worth repeating that you got yourself in a bit of cultural divide. For example, afaik, games developed in JP feature far more self empowered female characters than in the west. In recent times ME, TR, The witcher 2, DA franchise and ME come to mind in the west and as for east, we've got Bayonetta, FF13, LO, Persona, Disgaea, RE, NG, Star Ocean, VC, Ni no kuni, Tales games, Star ocean etc.
Plus, I wonder how many game concepts are threatened to oblivion in the east because they feature female protagonist?
Metroidvania
People called Romanes they go the house?
Apologies, I stand corrected.
The point still stands on usage of the word itself, however.
I'm not disagreeing the Sorceress is sexualized in regards to her exaggerated breasts, but how is her sexualization suddenly limiting her portrayal to that of a sexual object?
She presumably has as much agency as the rest of the cast. Being sexualized isn't somehow equal to being sexist or misogynistic.
Personally, I don't see having overly large breasts isn't inherently sexist, even if they do happen to catch a male viewer's eye. Frankly, they're a bit silly-looking.
edit: I swear I have a last-post curse going by 50ppp.
The writer has done the rightful thing...and jumped on twitter's echo chamber:
Wait, Leigh Alexander had publically streamed nip slips on the Live Bombcast while drunk.
Is she saying she has a problem with games showing off boobs or has problems with gamers who like the art?
Kai Dracon
Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
Upon reflection, there's something ironic about arguing over a sexily designed female character who is one of the heroes of a game rather than an object/goal or character in a weak position.
Over the course of this game the sorceress will command the fires of hell, raise the dead, and basically kill gods.
Now if only she could have done that while dressing a little more conservatively. Won't she think of the children?
Over the course of this game the sorceress will command the fires of hell, raise the dead, and basically kill gods.
Now if only she could have done that while dressing a little more conservatively. Won't she think of the children?
I'm talking about gaming culture, not Japanese culture.
Are you saying that given the sequence of events, it was absurd to suspect that the dwarf triplestack was a suggestion?
Just keep on doing what you're doing. Some of us appreciate it.
*eye roll*
Dude, just how many times were you published in the Lady Death letters column?
Zen_Arcade
Banned
Japanese culture is part of gaming culture. So is Western culture. The influences from different cultures help shape the content of the games.
Metroidvania
People called Romanes they go the house?
Word. I don't even find it offensive, just kind of gross and immature.
But if enough of you are going to insist with a straight face that these 'features' are essential to the sorceress' design and this whole thing is about artistic integrity and creative freedom...then OK. I support those endeavors.
Just realize how silly it is to go down waving the artistic integrity flag over a pair of poorly drawn 2D flash animated boobs.
Although, I've gone down waving that same flag defending Gwar, so what can I say?
Knux-Future
Banned
people are literally saying the same shit over and over again at this point.
Jathaine
Member
I don't realize how silly it is, please explain it to me in simple terms.
As far as I'm concerned, its not silly at all.
I dunno. Is a prolapsed rectum art? I guess.
Jonnyboy117
Member
Translation: "I am not sure if I can draw boobs any less humongoid than this."
Jathaine
Member
I'm quite honestly more confused than I was only a moment ago. Your explanation did nothing for me.
I'm not being sarcastic here, I don't understand what you're trying to say.
TheBaronOfNA
Banned
He doesn't like the art.
kunonabi
Member
He doesn't like the art and artistic integrity can only present in art forms and subject matter that he deems appropriate.
Zen_Arcade
Banned
I like it because it's a bizarre Japanese take on Renaissance art.
He's saying that "artistic integrity" is usually not a term attributed to bad art
Because isn't this the exact same shit that moral guardians do? Take one aspect of a game, no matter how tiny, and blow it up to where it's all they talk about? Isn't this shit why nobody in the gaming industry respected Jack Thompson's attitudes about games? Isn't "somebody might be offended" pretty much the reason we have the PTC?
I mean, it's laughable that you're trying to make this about "not being viewed like a 14 year old" when you decided that out of all the things that you could make an article about with Dragon's Crown, you decided to go with "ZOMG! LOOK AT HER TITS D:", whjch isn't all that different that "ZOMG! LOOK AT HER TITS
". In both cases, I don't care how immature the game industry is, you're being infinitely more immature. At least the people who drew her also created scenarios, settings, other characters and a whole world with a gameplay system to interact with it. Not that we'd know it with the lens you're looking at this game through. Now, since I know you're going to segue from this into the gaming industry's problem with misogyny, hey, great, let's talk about it. I find it insulting every single time anybody says that you can solve a problem that exists in the real world by focusing on the fantasy world. It's invalid when the NRA says it with regards to gun violence vs. violence in video games, and it's just as invalid when you say it with regards to the real treatment of women in the game industry and various gaming communities vs. the anatomy of video game characters. It's the mark of a coward in your case, because instead of doing more reporting about sexual harassment at offices, preferential treatment to men vs. women in the industry and other articles that could actually shed some sunlight on the issue, you're trying to act like a big man by shaming a design artist in Japan. You have access to the industry, find out more about the real stories and bring those to light, because those things ARE problematic and will continue to be so regardless of the presence of busty women in games.
And the next time you see a busty woman in a game and you're trying to prove that's not what you're about, you can do a much better job of it by not making a gigantic deal out of it, since that's what all of us adults out here in the real world do.
I'm saying that I guess you're right, and anything can be defended as art.
I have a painting in my fourier made of cancer in fact.
1. I don't think she's arguing against games showing breasts.
2. Pointing out some sexual display she made is really inappropriate and off topic.
I'm sure there are games with that but here we are talking about the sorceress.
MidnightCowboy
Member
That dwarf picture can totally be read as homoerotic, I'm shocked people are saying otherwise. It may not be the intent, but three muscular, sweaty men stacked on top of each other is always homoerotic in some sense.
I feel like the artist shouldn't have to apologize though, Schreier made a big deal out of nothing.
I feel like the artist shouldn't have to apologize though, Schreier made a big deal out of nothing.
This is astonishing.
You accuse George Kamitani of pandering to pedophiles, then try to insulate yourself from this loathsome behavior by claiming that it's unreasonable to expect you to have an understanding of what the words you use mean, and when people rightfully call you out for this you insinuate that they are also pedophiles.