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George Kamitani responds to Kotaku

Pie and Beans

Look for me on the local news, I'll be the guy arrested for trying to burn down a Nintendo exec's house.
Please stop bringing up anecdotal examples of females who don't have a problem with Dragon's Crown. I accept that there are women who are OK with this art. I'm OK with women being OK with it. That doesn't make it any less exclusionary or uncomfortable for other women, and it doesn't make it any less problematic to me.

"I will tell women what is and isn't dangerous sexism." This is what its come to. This is why the entire games media needs to be sat down by some actual professional adults and given a really indepth seminar on "The Art Of Gracefully Backing Down".

Topics will include how will you know when you've fucked up, and the best way back from fucking up. Things with red crosses next to them would be "escalating argument until you are insinuating other people are paedophiles" and "imposing your personal opinions on what is and isn't 'harmful art' onto women that don't fit your delicate little agenda".

This would have ended if you'd just posted Kamitani's response in full as an article, but no. You had to get "the last word" in, because thats how childish you are. This isn't even a profession, its just tantrum in blog form.
 

QisTopTier

XisBannedTier
Oh yo Karst pm the letter you wrote George :D

At least admit that you don't know what the hell a loli is, Schreier.

My favorite loli is Hsein-ko! :lol

For reference, let's look at this picture of the sorceress. Other than her proportions, there are a couple of details worth noting. One is that her shirt is trying to escape from her chest. She also has a very childish face that resembles lolicon imagery. I don't think either of those features is beautiful or worth lauding in any way.

Now let's look at the gif that was posted earlier in this thread. Maybe you think it's reasonable, or beautiful, or aesthetically pleasing when a female character's breasts move like that during combat. I don't. I think it's demeaning and embarrassing.

See, I don't think the sorceress's design is problematic because of her large breasts. What's problematic is that the character is explicitly designed to draw our eyes to her large breasts. They're exposed; they're jiggling; they're disproportionate. They're immediately striking. They're part of a lolicon fantasy, drawn to appeal to people who are interested in lolicon fantasies (and people who are interested in large breasts).
Sorry Jason.
 
Same reason a woman with big breast gets dirty looks from other women when they are getting all the attention in a social setting.

Same reason so many women get implants.

Angry feminist pushing an agenda.

Your not allowed to like something every woman doesn't have.

We are not allowed to have fantasy art or games. Everything must adhere to strict realistic rules. Every game must be grounded in reality like The Sims which is an interactive dollhouse.

Well aren't you the most special victim.

Speaking from experience, a lot of those women with big breasts getting "all the attention" don't want the kind of attention that brings, as it's generally crass and uncomfortable. bordering on scary.

"Angry feminists" should continue to be angry because look at this thread. Look at all the threads about women in video games. Because it doesn't affect them on a personal level, some people think that they can stick their fingers in their ears and pretend that each individual representation of a woman in games, or treatment of a woman in the industry exists in a vacuum. It doesn't. This design isn't the worst thing ever to happen, obviously, and especially in a niche where games where you feel up 12 year olds and creep on your little sister are some of the most anticipated titles of the year, but pretending it doesn't have a place in the conversation is ridiculous. This has absolutely everything to do with why women are treated unfairly in the industry, the "boy's club" image, the lack of realistically written women in games, and why you can't even "out" yourself as a girl online in many games and gaming communities. The sorceress is not the root of the problem, even though some people seem to be taking that as what was said, she's just a symptom.
 

Kai Dracon

Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
Reading Kamitani's response strengthened my belief that this is an auteur game. It's not part of the problem.

The problem for some people seems to be they will argue that so long as there is sexism somewhere in society, the mere existence of the author's illustration is a bad thing because it will further sexism.

The issue there reminds me of the scene in Donny Darko where a hyper-conservative PTA member rails against the book The Destructors. Because the concern is that the very image of teenagers tearing down a house, regardless of context, story, authorial intent, is vile and wrong. It might encourage other teenagers to tear down houses. Therefore such images are always harmful to society.
 

Metrotab

Banned
You've seen the gif, right? This is not a matter of something that will "catch some players' eyes." We are talking about extraordinary jiggle physics here. We're talking about a character who is designed to appeal to people who like large breasts, which might be perfectly harmless if it weren't part of a culture that, most of the time, only seems designed to appeal to people who like breasts. One small example of a much larger problem.

And there are two other female characters that appeal to vastly different interests. So can NO character EVER have large breasts again?
 

bone_and_sinew

breaking down barriers in gratuitous nudity
I feel harmed and excluded by the assumption that I'm only interested in this game because of the giant tits from the sorceress. It's a Japanese 2D multiplayer action-rpg brawler releasing in 2013 on one console, get out of here with the "this is just cheap pandering to the male demographic like most games" argument. This isn't like most games in 2013 and that's why it caught my attention, not because of giant tits.
 
The responses to my question are much more frustrating than I could imagine, mostly because I agree with all of them. Ugh.

This entire thing has become a debacle, and it didn't need to.

And there are two other female characters that appeal to vastly different interests. So can NO character EVER have large breasts again?

Spot on. Why are we only picking on the Sorceress?
 

Persona86

Banned
Regardless, like I've said over and over again, I've played Dragon's Crown! It's a cool game. I'm looking forward to playing more of it. And I probably won't play as the sorceress, because it'd make me feel pretty gross. I just watched the dwarf trailer again, incidentally. His muscles don't jiggle.

Umm I've got news for you, muscles aren't boobies.... ;)

Anyway my honest opinion about all this, is to just stop and move on, everyone should stop taking things so seriously, we have enough of that in this world. We are wasting energy on such useless topics and yet today thousands of people have died from starvation.
 

jgmo870

Banned
I'm content to believe Jason is just trolling at this point.

Or just really dense. Posting this: And yes, it was a gay joke. He posted an image of three muscled men hugging and said "The art of the direction which he likes was prepared."

Even after Kamitani claimed to be using an automated translator, in a message to Kotaku no less, doesn't convince me he's actually thought about what's been posted in this thread.
 
You've seen the gif, right? This is not a matter of something that will "catch some players' eyes." We are talking about extraordinary jiggle physics here. We're talking about a character who is designed to appeal to people who like large breasts, which might be perfectly harmless if it weren't part of a culture that, most of the time, only seems designed to appeal to people who like breasts. One small example of a much larger problem.


I don't even think it was designed purely for that. It goes too far into the grotesque for the widest sex appeal. I mean, the concept was obviously a hyper-sexualized design, but the art style was given precedence over optimal sex appeal.

Especially when you look at it together with a large selection of his art. To me, it fits with his style, and doesn't seem cynical or forced.

Then consider that you chose to target this game precisely because of that exaggeration: precisely because the game leaned more toward using an art style than toward fulfilling the most "standard" sex appeal possible.

So you ended up attacking a game and a company which uses a huge variety of character design for women, makes women strong, playable characters, and ranks the art style above going for the most standard appeal. You ended up tacitly ignoring the variety of character designs, which set it apart from so many others. You ended up telling people what they like, telling an artist who they designed for, and supporting censorship. You ended up giving support to standardization of art through trying to shame an outlier.

How did this happen? I submit that it is because there is a character in this game with exaggerated large breasts.



Oh man.
 

jschreier

Member
Well aren't you the most special victim.

Speaking from experience, a lot of those women with big breasts getting "all the attention" don't want the kind of attention that brings, as it's generally crass and uncomfortable. bordering on scary.

"Angry feminists" should continue to be angry because look at this thread. Look at all the threads about women in video games. Because it doesn't affect them on a personal level, some people think that they can stick their fingers in their ears and pretend that each individual representation of a woman in games, or treatment of a woman in the industry exists in a vacuum. It doesn't. This design isn't the worst thing ever to happen, obviously, and especially in a niche where games where you feel up 12 year olds and creep on your little sister are some of the most anticipated titles of the year, but pretending it doesn't have a place in the conversation is ridiculous. This has absolutely everything to do with why women are treated unfairly in the industry, the "boy's club" image, the lack of realistically written women in games, and why you can't even "out" yourself as a girl online in many games and gaming communities. The sorceress is not the root of the problem, even though some people seem to be taking that as what was said, she's just a symptom.

Thank you. Really.
 

Metrotab

Banned
The sorceress is not the root of the problem, even though some people seem to be taking that as what was said, she's just a symptom.

Or she's simply part of an overlapping artistic vision in this game.

It's crazy how much tunnel vision there is going towards the Sorceress' character design.
 
The responses to my question are much more frustrating than I could imagine, mostly because I agree with all of them. Ugh.

This entire thing has become a debacle

Which is what Jschreier wants, because it leads to more hits for his site and his articles. The best thing GAF could do is ignore Kotaku's manufactured controversies. Instead, GAFfers are drawn to then like moths to aflame.
 

ultron87

Member
Or just really dense. Posting this: And yes, it was a gay joke. He posted an image of three muscled men hugging and said "The art of the direction which he likes was prepared."

Even after Kamitani claimed to be using an automated translator, in a message to Kotaku no less, doesn't convince me he's actually thought about what's been posted in this thread.

How is it not a gay joke, albeit a tame and relatively harmless one?
 
Which is what Jschreier wants, because it leads to more hits for his site and his articles. The best thing GAF could do is ignore Kotaku's manufactured controversies. Instead, GAFfers are drawn to then like moths to aflame.

I stopped going to Kotaku last year and have encouraged at least two of my friends to do the same. I'm all about having the conversation about sexism in video games and in the video game industry, but I think Dragon's Crown is harmless and shouldn't be the scapegoat for a larger problem.
 
I'm just baffled at how many people don't see why people like me consider it problematic.

As someone who has made his living entirely in the arts for almost fifteen years, (If I don't make my work, I quite literally don't eat.) I'm baffled by people like you who have such unevolved and disrespectful attitudes towards art and artists.

I work in photography. I thank God that in my industry critics and journalists covering my medium don't act like you and your lot. If we did, perhaps the chilling effect would have meant no one would see important work by the likes of Arbus ("Oh, she exploits poor people and freaks!"), Saudek ("oh, look at how he sexualizes women!!!",) and Helnwein ("OMG!!! Nazi imagery!!!"). If people like you lot were placed in a position to have a significant voice in photography, Robert Mapplethorpe would have been stuck taking "those pretty pictures of flowers," and Steven Meisel would have been told by his rep to stick to taking "pretty" pictures of models, without any of that troubling "social commentary stuff."

No, in my medium, critics and journalists by and large would stand up for the artist, and want the art to speak for itself, and want to promote art to the widest audience possible, even if it is work that may be controversial or even downright disturbing. See, art that is not stifled is healthy art. Let the art speak for itself, and let the people (and the market) ultimately decide. Criticism is done, but it is done with a conscience for how such criticism should never stifle free expression.

As video games become more sophisticated in terms of visuals, perhaps you aren't cut out for being in this position as a commentator on a medium inching ever closer to fine art. Perhaps you should move into writing about politics, if you thing a large-breasted figure is so dangerous that it needs to be labeled "a harmful work of art." I think the art and artists who want to do interesting, personal work and not just cookie-cutter, committee-approved shit would thank you for exiting the field you are so clearly not committed to the future of. For this medium to grow artistically, it will require advocates of artists, not judgemental folks offended so easily, and so eager to throw labels on artists.
 

Not

Banned
Guy is a great artist guess the backlash will end after all women in games are fully covered with small breast. Glad games are for kids and don't need anything adult added.

My bad dude, didn't know "adult" meant "sexually exaggerated to the point of disgusting"
 

Metrotab

Banned
Artistic freedom, especially when it comes from genuine passion and auteurship, is a beautiful value worth defending. That's why this game is different from DoA and fanservice-character #452 in random FPS.
 

QisTopTier

XisBannedTier
Did you read the entire message, about the retailers and the automated english translator? Kamitani's implying it was never his intent to make a gay joke.

This is completely fucking true about the retailer stuff. If no one believes it I got some blazblue phone card pictures Id love to share ;)
 

Trakdown

Member
Jack Thompson's mindset is that the government should outlaw certain forms of expression, and that game companies were legally responsible for dead children.
Hence why I led with what I felt to be the mindset: Grotesque magnification of the negative to the point of moral outrage. It's also why I mentioned the PTC, because I thought that was the mindset they ran on; I wasn't concerned about the methodology they used to satisfy such a mindset.

But, going with your definition would effectively mean no more game reviews.

...Really? I'm not saying you can't take a game maker to task, but flimsy shit like this doesn't do much to inspire a proper review mindset. This is like giving the KOF franchise a 0/10 because of Mai.


APF said:
If Jason was saying Dragon's Crown was a rape simulator and that laws should be passed to ban it you might be on to something.

Dissolving Dragon's Crown down to an eroge or less because of one character's design sounds about as intellectually solid and blind as any reasoning Thompson ever gave for suggesting banning something.

As it is, it's you who sounds closer to the angry conservative reactionary who hand-waves every concern because bigger problems are the only thing people should care about.

There is such a thing as wasting energy on something symbolically when it could actually be used to affect real world change, which I actually cited in my post when I brought up the video game violence vs. real world violence example. He can be concerned about it till he's blue in the face, but it's not going to fix that other concern any more than a nailgun unclogs toilets. Wrong tool for the job.

If it's not his place to tell other folks his concerns, why is it your place to tell him what he should be concerned about?

It's a message board. I'm allowed to communicate to people what I feel. They are, in turned to tell me how they feel about how I feel. And I feel his perspective isn't being fed through a realistic filter, I'm going to suggest so. He's more than welcome to be concerned, just like I'm welcome to say I don't think that's productive and that he should be pursuing other avenues if he's really concerned with what he says he's concerned with.
 

JordanN

Banned
This has absolutely everything to do with why women are treated unfairly in the industry, the "boy's club" image, the lack of realistically written women in games, and why you can't even "out" yourself as a girl online in many games and gaming communities. The sorceress is not the root of the problem, even though some people seem to be taking that as what was said, she's just a symptom.
You had me up to here.

What does a character with a huge rack have to do with someone being shouted down online?

One is a character, the other is people putting down a gender*.

The sooner people stop seeing Sorceress as some kind of tool of oppression, the better we can actually look at the sexist domains of gaming.

*I'm assuming that's the perceived notion why girls don't expose themselves online is because they feel they'll be harassed for it right? I've never seen it happen first hand.
 

Hero

Member
See this is why people are bailing out of these fucking threads.

I'd blame one-liner drive-by's a bit more.

What is this fucking bullshit? Drive-by one liners? I've posted many times in this thread and every other thread regarding this. You put up a statement and I questioned you about it since you spoke as if you had some authoritative position on the matter. Don't fucking bitch when I call you out about it.
 
1367019241194.gif


I just want to play video games
 
Because people seem to miss this

I believe that the basic fantasy motifs seen in Dungeons & Dragons and the work of J.R.R. Tolkien have a style that is very attractive, and I chose to use some orthodox ones in my basic designs. However, if I left those designs as is, they won’t stand out amongst the many fantasy designs already in the video game/comic/movie/etc. space. Because of that, I decided to exaggerate all of my character designs in a cartoonish fashion.

I exaggerated the silhouettes of all the masculine features in the male characters, the feminine features in female characters, and the monster-like features in the monsters from many different angles until each had a unique feel to them. I apologize to those who were made uncomfortable by the art’s appearance, and did not see the same light-hearted fantasy in my designs.

The goal wasn't just "big tits lol".
 

ultron87

Member
Can people make a gay joke without being labeled Homophobic? This is the part I don't understand. Cause most people are instantly labeling it as such as well.

Probably. It seems like it had no ire behind and in no way suggested that there was anything negative about being gay.

Did you read the entire message, about the retailers and the automated english translator? Kamitani's implying it was never his intent to make a gay joke.

Yeah, I did. Even if his translation wasn't totally accurate I don't really know any other way to take it. He didn't say that wasn't his intention; he just said he meant it to be light hearted.
 
Or she's simply part of an overlapping artistic vision in this game.

It's crazy how much tunnel vision there is going towards the Sorceress' character design.

Honestly I don't care about her design. I'm still going to get the game, I've played and enjoyed games like it, I'm very familiar with Kamitani's style. To say that there is no vaguely juvenile purpose to pander with "LOOK BOOBIES" is silly though. Even if it's only her character, that is the purpose of the specific design. It's a pretty design, insane huge breasts and disproportionate everything else aside, but yes it fits into the narrative of "14 year old and lonely otaku bait." I don't really think a 2 sentence snark post deserved all the outrage it garnered from the Gamer's Rights Activists brigade.
 
Please stop bringing up anecdotal examples of females who don't have a problem with Dragon's Crown. I accept that there are women who are OK with this art. I'm OK with women being OK with it. That doesn't make it any less exclusionary or uncomfortable for other women, and it doesn't make it any less problematic to me.
I find it interesting that the anecdotal real women's viewpoint on the issue is less valid than the white male game journalist's viewpoint on how "other," not even anecdotal women are feeling. Or is there a public outcry that I've missed? This is the God of War achievement all over again.

Just reads like a pretty typical one person with an agenda telling the rest of us, including the affected parties, how we should all feel.
 

Kurod

Banned
As someone who has made his living entirely in the arts for almost fifteen years, (If I don't make my work, I quite literally don't eat.) I'm baffled by people like you who have such unevolved and disrespectful attitudes towards art and artists.

I work in photography. I thank God that in my industry critics and journalists covering my medium don't act like you and your lot. If we did, perhaps the chilling effect would have meant no one would see important work by the likes of Arbus ("Oh, she exploits poor people and freaks!"), Saudek ("oh, look at how he sexualizes women!!!",) and Helnwein ("OMG!!! Nazi imagery!!!"). If people like you lot were placed in a position to have a significant voice in photography, Robert Mapplethorpe would have been stuck taking "those pretty pictures of flowers," and Steven Meisel would have been told by his rep to stick to taking "pretty" pictures of models, without any of that troubling "social commentary stuff."

No, in my medium, critics and journalists by and large would stand up for the artist, and want the art to speak for itself, and want to promote art to the widest audience possible, even if it is work that may be controversial or even downright disturbing. See, art that is not stifled is healthy art. Let the art speak for itself, and let the people (and the market) ultimately decide. Criticism is done, but it is done with a conscience for how such criticism should never stifle free expression.

As video games become more sophisticated in terms of visuals, perhaps you aren't cut out for being in this position as a commentator on a medium inching ever closer to fine art. Perhaps you should move into writing about politics, if you thing a large-breasted figure is so dangerous that it needs to be labeled "a harmful work of art." I think the art and artists who want to do interesting, personal work and not just cookie-cutter, committee-approved shit would thank you for exiting the field you are so clearly not committed to the future of. For this medium to grow artistically, it will require advocates of artists, not judgemental folks offended so easily, and so eager to throw labels on artists.
Quoting this for the new page.

You are my new favourite poster.
 

Metrotab

Banned
Honestly I don't care about her design. I'm still going to get the game, I've played and enjoyed games like it, I'm very familiar with Kamitani's style. To say that there is no vaguely juvenile purpose to pander with "LOOK BOOBIES" is silly though. Even if it's only her character, that is the purpose of the specific design. It's a pretty design, insane huge breasts and disproportionate everything else aside, but yes it fits into the narrative of "14 year old and lonely otaku bait." I don't really think a 2 sentence snark post deserved all the outrage it garnered from the Gamer's Rights Activists brigade.

No it doesn't. That's what 'your side' makes of it.

And I don't think this character design deserves the damning it gets from the Social Justice brigade either. The heavy words thrown around, the insults, the notion that people defending this design are boorish or ignorant.
 

QisTopTier

XisBannedTier
So potentially, lesbian gamers aren't attracted to boobs at all? My, the things you learn.
My bi best friend FUCKING LOVES BOOBS
and vagina's like to the point of randomly sending me pictures of them and disusing shapes and such LOL
She games all the time in her off time as well soooo yeah that statment isn't true at all
 
As someone who has made his living entirely in the arts for almost fifteen years, I'm baffled by people like you who have such unevolved and disrespectful attitudes towards art and artists.

I work in photography. I thank God that in my industry critics and journalists covering my medium don't act like you and your lot. If we did, perhaps the chilling effect would have meant no one would see important work by the likes of Arbus ("Oh, she exploits poor people and freaks!"), Saudek ("oh, look at how he sexualizes women!!!",) and Helnwein ("OMG!!! Nazi imagery!!!"). If people like you lot were placed in a position to have a significant voice in photography, Robert Mapplethorpe would have been stuck taking "those pretty pictures of flowers," and Steven Meisel would have been told by his rep to stick to taking "pretty" pictures of models.

No, in my medium, critics and journalists by and large would stand up for the artist, and want the art to speak for itself, and want to promote art to the widest audience possible, even if it is work that may be controversial or even downright disturbing. See, art that is not stifled is healthy art. Let the art speak for itself, and let the people (and the market) ultimately decide. Criticism is done, but it is done with a conscience for how such criticism should never stifle free expression.

As video games become more sophisticated in terms of visuals, perhaps you aren't cut out for being in this position as a commentator on a medium inching ever closer to fine art. Perhaps you should move into writing about politics, if you thing a large-breasted figure is so dangerous that it needs to be labeled "a harmful work of art." I think the art and artists who want to do interesting, personal work and not just cookie-cutter, committee-approved shit would thank you for exiting the field you are so clearly not committed to the future of. For this medium to grow artistically, it will require advocates of artists, not judgemental folks offended so easily, and so eager to throw labels on artists.

Great post. Should be continuously pointed out, it's fine if you find the sorceress distasteful, ugly, disgusting, etc and to express your opinion. It's when someone takes their personal tastes and implies that the art is now harmful or dangerous to society that will cause people to bristle.
 

jgmo870

Banned
Yeah, I did. Even if his translation wasn't totally accurate I don't really know any other way to take it. He didn't say that wasn't his intention; he just said he meant it to be light hearted.

Probably a nuance with the original text that the translator couldn't pick up on (automated ones are very literal). And that's probably why this message has been filtered through a Japanese/English speaking person.
 

AlexBasch

Member
My bi best friend FUCKING LOVES BOOBS
My girlfriend does as well.

But is she also a paedophile?
Well she had a 16 year old boyfriend back when she was 19 so...

Goddammit.

Please stop bringing up anecdotal examples of females who don't have a problem with Dragon's Crown. I accept that there are women who are OK with this art. I'm OK with women being OK with it. That doesn't make it any less exclusionary or uncomfortable for other women, and it doesn't make it any less problematic to me.
What happened to the "if only one person is offended by it", shouldn't you take into consideration that some women don't mind it at all or they don't count?
 
As someone who has made his living entirely in the arts for almost fifteen years, (If I don't make my work, I quite literally don't eat.) I'm baffled by people like you who have such unevolved and disrespectful attitudes towards art and artists.

I work in photography. I thank God that in my industry critics and journalists covering my medium don't act like you and your lot. If we did, perhaps the chilling effect would have meant no one would see important work by the likes of Arbus ("Oh, she exploits poor people and freaks!"), Saudek ("oh, look at how he sexualizes women!!!",) and Helnwein ("OMG!!! Nazi imagery!!!"). If people like you lot were placed in a position to have a significant voice in photography, Robert Mapplethorpe would have been stuck taking "those pretty pictures of flowers," and Steven Meisel would have been told by his rep to stick to taking "pretty" pictures of models, without any of that troubling "social commentary stuff."

No, in my medium, critics and journalists by and large would stand up for the artist, and want the art to speak for itself, and want to promote art to the widest audience possible, even if it is work that may be controversial or even downright disturbing. See, art that is not stifled is healthy art. Let the art speak for itself, and let the people (and the market) ultimately decide. Criticism is done, but it is done with a conscience for how such criticism should never stifle free expression.

As video games become more sophisticated in terms of visuals, perhaps you aren't cut out for being in this position as a commentator on a medium inching ever closer to fine art. Perhaps you should move into writing about politics, if you thing a large-breasted figure is so dangerous that it needs to be labeled "a harmful work of art." I think the art and artists who want to do interesting, personal work and not just cookie-cutter, committee-approved shit would thank you for exiting the field you are so clearly not committed to the future of. For this medium to grow artistically, it will require advocates of artists, not judgemental folks offended so easily, and so eager to throw labels on artists.

holy shit...i missed this post.

Good shit man.
 
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