There have been plenty of games where a woman kicked high and exposed her panties. I doubt you'll find many who bought the game for that reason.
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George Kamitani responds to Kotaku
- Thread starter LiK
- Start date
There have been plenty of games where a woman kicked high and exposed her panties. I doubt you'll find many who bought the game for that reason.
Knux-Future
Banned
The simple idea that because she is drawn with large breasts, that it will somehow negatively effect the industry is just such a strange jump to a conclusion.
That's where the entire idea falls apart that one single design can corrupt anything. "bu-but it's a trend".
No. If anything there has been a campaign of sorts against T&A for no reason...if anything t&A games have bombed hard lately (DOA did poorly IIRC). And regardless, this design is so out there that if anyone takes it seriously, then I question their judgement.
You can think it looks dumb, you can think it is ugly, and hell you can think it's perverted ( and once again I don't think there is anything wrong with perverted or sexual designs) and maybe even juvenile (I'd agure against that since that will piss some off)...
but when you start calling it sexist, is where I draw the line. That is a loaded word and placing it on something that others enjoy indites them as sexist as well or at least compliant with sexist or sexually objectification. That is no good and hurts your point from jump.
A design (that is explained) isn't sexist, what is sexist is the role a character plays or their character. Passive, women who are litterally only objects are sexist. A Big boobed Witch with no character ATM outside of her (confident as fuck) animation is not.
That's where the entire idea falls apart that one single design can corrupt anything. "bu-but it's a trend".
No. If anything there has been a campaign of sorts against T&A for no reason...if anything t&A games have bombed hard lately (DOA did poorly IIRC). And regardless, this design is so out there that if anyone takes it seriously, then I question their judgement.
You can think it looks dumb, you can think it is ugly, and hell you can think it's perverted ( and once again I don't think there is anything wrong with perverted or sexual designs) and maybe even juvenile (I'd agure against that since that will piss some off)...
but when you start calling it sexist, is where I draw the line. That is a loaded word and placing it on something that others enjoy indites them as sexist as well or at least compliant with sexist or sexually objectification. That is no good and hurts your point from jump.
A design (that is explained) isn't sexist, what is sexist is the role a character plays or their character. Passive, women who are litterally only objects are sexist. A Big boobed Witch with no character ATM outside of her (confident as fuck) animation is not.
In fairness, Jack Thompson was trying to pass censorship laws and file lawsuits against game companies. Neither of which really compare to writing anything critical on game websites. Additionally, I wouldn't want negative reviews to be curtailed out of fear that they might shame the game designer.
Neuromancer
Member
Agreed
kunonabi
Member
and yet we're the 14 year olds.
nailbombxx
Member
A pedophilia joke perhaps? That's in very poor taste.
At least if someone suggested you may like men, and you actually did, it would be okay, but this... I don't even.
The effect of both is the same: squashing something they disagree with. One just went about that through legislation, the other through public shaming.
The point is that it's hyper exaggerated overtly sexual imagery that reduces the character to a sex object. That IS the sorceress. It's no different than the gif that has her tits flapping like a Garry`s Mod glitch due to a strong wind.
My point was context and origin. If kotaku put out this picture instead of some niche Japanese artist this thread would be nothing but a torrent of hate. Instead, Kamitani is getting virtual pats on the back for using this art style while Schreir is getting derided for even showing the art he (justifiably) has a problem with in his post.
Wow your snarky replies along with not being sure before slandering someone is amazing. Lost any respect I would have had for any of your work.
Also I have never seen a woman in the actual world with big breast or skimpy clothing.
Personally I was never shielded from the real world so my head didn't explode when I got older. Drugs, sex, ect are all part of the real world. Once I got to a certain age, these things were taught to me. This whole thing just seems so immature that we, as adults can't appreciate someones art, or turn away if It is not our thing.Why do these people act like a giant mom figure?
MidnightCowboy
Member
Something I've always wondered about the backlash to female characters with large breasts is...don't women with large breasts exist? Why yes, they do! So why are artists targeted when they draw them?
Right, but Thompson's mindset- That one aspect of a game devalues anything else in the game, and that one aspect of a game is not only the primary reason somebody plays something, but the only reason, is insulting and something the industry should strive to distance themselves from.
It's systemic. Media "journalism" is a horrible, unrewarding, low-paying job with no satisfying internal perspective for anyone who can hold a pencil without injury. What do you do when you're stuck in such a job? You turn to vanity. You try to get attention for your person so some sympathetic sob hires you out, far away. It's the opposite of a craft. The better you do your job, the further removed you get from your personal interests.
If Jason was saying Dragon's Crown was a rape simulator and that laws should be passed to ban it you might be on to something. As it is, it's you who sounds closer to the angry conservative reactionary who hand-waves every concern because bigger problems are the only thing people should care about. If it's not his place to tell other folks his concerns, why is it your place to tell him what he should be concerned about?
Schobeleth
Member
By keeping doing what you're doing, do you mean accusing people of being pedophiles and saying it's wrong for women characters in games to be sexualized at all?
Also, I thought this was America - I know that I'm living in a place where women can wear whatever they want and not get stoned to death. I guess people would be happier if games were censored, regardless of the artist's intent.
I understand it's ok to talk about an art style, especially if it's different or questionable, but to say it's completely wrong or people are wrong for liking it is just silly.
Knux-Future
Banned
No he's getting derided for constantly subtly insulting people and not fact checking.
No one...or at least no one should be criticizing his overall stance. Sexism is bad and while we disagree that this is a sexist design, I agree that some things can be better. he just happens to ruin that by being snarky and wrong on a lot of his points but the goal is honorable.
The thing is that the artist in the apology totally explained what his goal was with the designs..and yet that is being ignored or pushed off as something that doesn't matter at all. It matter quite a bit because at that point you are just mad that he decided to do something you don't like at that point.
and regardless, could it be wank material for some dude? Sure...everything can be. Is it sexual or perverted...hell yeah. But is there anything wrong with that? Not to me.
Can it be offensive to some? yeah...but if you start changing designs and your vision for that then you won't make anything.
The disconnect from Jason and many here is that the idea of a deisgn being as toxic as he says isn;t realistic....it would take more than just the design and the design is the only thing he constantly points out.
Chie Satonaka
Member
The writer has done the rightful thing...and jumped on twitter's echo chamber:
Since this was posted here, I feel it's appropriate to ask a question about it.
Can someone explain to me what the deal is with this weird "us vs them" mentality I've seen from the gaming industry (including journalism) recently? It seems like this happens EVERY TIME a "big" story doesn't go the way it's expected to go, or because a group of people take issue with something specific. They run to twitter and complain, and then another industry professional will say something in support, usually while insulting the community that they serve in the process. Why is this okay?
Jack Thompson's mindset is that the government should outlaw certain forms of expression, and that game companies were legally responsible for dead children.
But, going with your definition would effectively mean no more game reviews.
Well, twitter is a popular place for complaints, since they deploy messages rapidly. Also, sometimes two people agree on something. And sometimes people on the internet react in a polarizing manner. I'm not sure where the confusion lies.
Metroidvania
People called Romanes they go the house?
How does having flopping breasts automatically reduce her to a sex object? It's sexualized to a potentially silly/obscene degree (depending on how you look at it), but how does it reduce her character or agency?
The sorceress is not just her breasts, she's also casting spells and killing things equally as well as the other characters (at least, presumably equally well).
Whether something is justifiable or not is not always based on some hard fact or absolute stance. Portraying an opinion backed with personal moral/responsibility justification as grounds for not just objection, but pressuring others to feel shamed for disagreeing, is where people take issue.
edit: Also some of what Knux-Future said above.
He's welcome to voice his concerns, but to some, the Jason's article/posts have come across as an attack/shaming of people who enjoy the work, or who do not agree with his views regarding Dragon's Crown's sexist portrayal via the Sorceress.
Pie and Beans
Look for me on the local news, I'll be the guy arrested for trying to burn down a Nintendo exec's house.
I wish current games journalism would just end, go away for like 5 years, grow up, and perhaps not hire so many insufferable assholes. To have such a well reasoned reply from Kamitani and then frame it with an animated gif just of jiggling boobs is a fucking new low.
Schreier was beginning to loosen the "Kotaku means shit" stigma with some good invested articles, but here he is tripling down into a swamp of ill conceived sexism arguments stemming from what seemed like a totally ad hominem attack. Good thing he has the usual circle of "US GAMES JOURNALISTS EH?" to endlessly stroke the ego shaft making the "never back down" aspect of said occupation exhaustingly front and centre.
These people are not "well read" critics at the top of their field. The difference between them and hobbyists on GAF that talk at length about games just for fun is a paycheque and little else. That makes them nervous creatures that need to lord it over the peasants just incase everyone just sort of works out how many of these voices arent worth listening to and have no idea what theyre blithering on about.
I... wow. Catching up on this whole thread. wow.
Schreier was beginning to loosen the "Kotaku means shit" stigma with some good invested articles, but here he is tripling down into a swamp of ill conceived sexism arguments stemming from what seemed like a totally ad hominem attack. Good thing he has the usual circle of "US GAMES JOURNALISTS EH?" to endlessly stroke the ego shaft making the "never back down" aspect of said occupation exhaustingly front and centre.
These people are not "well read" critics at the top of their field. The difference between them and hobbyists on GAF that talk at length about games just for fun is a paycheque and little else. That makes them nervous creatures that need to lord it over the peasants just incase everyone just sort of works out how many of these voices arent worth listening to and have no idea what theyre blithering on about.
I... wow. Catching up on this whole thread. wow.
bone_and_sinew
breaking down barriers in gratuitous nudity
Bolded is incorrect and why "it's ok". Because the masters that they serve are the game publishers, NOT the readers.
Teknopathetic
Member
"This is astonishing.
You accuse George Kamitani of pandering to pedophiles, then try to insulate yourself from this loathsome behavior by claiming that it's unreasonable to expect you to have an understanding of what the words you use mean, and when people rightfully call you out for this you insinuate that they are also pedophiles."
Yep. And posts like that are why the "discussion" in this thread is as toxic as it is.
You accuse George Kamitani of pandering to pedophiles, then try to insulate yourself from this loathsome behavior by claiming that it's unreasonable to expect you to have an understanding of what the words you use mean, and when people rightfully call you out for this you insinuate that they are also pedophiles."
Yep. And posts like that are why the "discussion" in this thread is as toxic as it is.
ReeseHoward
Banned
I agree with all of this.
Because nobody holds people in the industry to a higher standard.
You've seen the gif, right? This is not a matter of something that will "catch some players' eyes." We are talking about extraordinary jiggle physics here. We're talking about a character who is designed to appeal to people who like large breasts, which might be perfectly harmless if it weren't part of a culture that, most of the time, only seems designed to appeal to people who like breasts. One small example of a much larger problem.
Like I've said so many times before, I am not trying to target Dragon's Crown as the worst thing to happen ever. I'm just so sick of seeing the same narrative over and over again in gaming: "hey, this is for you, straight male aged 18-30!" We could be having this same conversation about many other games. We're only having it about this one because I wrote a stupid 4-line snark post and George Kamitani responded to it by making a gay joke on Facebook. (And yes, it was a gay joke. He posted an image of three muscled men hugging and said "The art of the direction which he likes was prepared." Gay jokes are more acceptable in Japan than they are in the States.)
We could be talking about, say, Dead or Alive. Someone brought up Team Ninja before. I recall Team Ninja's Yosuke Hayashi answering, when asked how he would respond to people who called his games sexist, that he wants to "create the cutest chicks in video games." That, to me, certainly seems more problematic than Kamitani's art. But we're talking about Kamitani's art. That's the conversation. And hopefully it will lead to more conversations about how the video game industry treats women both in their games and in real life.
I think that, if we were looking at the sorceress in a vacuum, and if we didn't live in a world where every other week there was a new story about a gross work party, or sexual harassment at PAX, or yet another game that spends time focusing on "boob physics," maybe I wouldn't be up in arms about this.
Please stop bringing up anecdotal examples of females who don't have a problem with Dragon's Crown. I accept that there are women who are OK with this art. I'm OK with women being OK with it. That doesn't make it any less exclusionary or uncomfortable for other women, and it doesn't make it any less problematic to me.
People have asked why I'm focusing on this game and not on real-world issues of sexism at, say, video game companies. I have and will continue to focus on both. If you know of any examples of sexism (or, really any other issues) at video game companies that you think I should be looking into, please send me an e-mail: jason@kotaku.com
Regardless, like I've said over and over again, I've played Dragon's Crown! It's a cool game. I'm looking forward to playing more of it. And I probably won't play as the sorceress, because it'd make me feel pretty gross. I just watched the dwarf trailer again, incidentally. His muscles don't jiggle.
One final thought, before I leave the office: if all I cared about was pageviews, as so many of you have claimed, why would I still be here? If I didn't care about my readers and my community, why would I have read every post in this thread?
When I get home, I'll try to address as many responses as I can. Please do try to stay civil.
EricDiesel
Member
Not seeing an apology for implying (accidentally or not) that being gay is an insult, but at least he addressed the elephant in the room. Better than nothing.
It's not that she has large breasts, it's that they're proportioned and animated in such a cartoonishly exaggerated way that they're clearly titillate male players. Some women don't appreciate that. Hell, as a straight man I don't appreciate the assumption that that sort of thing would appeal to me. I find it pretty silly and unnecessary.
Lots of people in this thread missing the point of why people are criticizing these character designs.
It's not that she has large breasts, it's that they're proportioned and animated in such a cartoonishly exaggerated way that they're clearly titillate male players. Some women don't appreciate that. Hell, as a straight man I don't appreciate the assumption that that sort of thing would appeal to me. I find it pretty silly and unnecessary.
Lots of people in this thread missing the point of why people are criticizing these character designs.
This. Seriously, some of you are quite ignorant and super sensitive.
Same reason a woman with big breast gets dirty looks from other women when they are getting all the attention in a social setting.
Same reason so many women get implants.
Angry feminist pushing an agenda.
Your not allowed to like something every woman doesn't have.
We are not allowed to have fantasy art or games. Everything must adhere to strict realistic rules. Every game must be grounded in reality like The Sims which is an interactive dollhouse.
R
Retro_
Unconfirmed Member
what the helllllllllllllllllllllllllll
Bullshit. This is utter bollocks and you know it. The vast, vaaaaaast majority of games do not feature large, jigglefied breasts, if they even feature breasts (or people) at all, nor are they trying to target said market.
It's clear now, more than before, that you're operating through an extremely narrow prism, one that's not entirely based in reality.
Edit: Although if you only read Kotaku, I can certainly see how you might get that impression.
ReeseHoward
Banned
Then the problem is how it makes certain players feel alienated. It's like a poor kid going to Harvard on a scholarship and hearing everyone talk about their summer homes and pools. Yes, it alienates that one person, but that doesn't mean that the rich kids are doing something destructive or harmful in and of itself.
You approach the story from the angle of "this might make some people feel left out", then go on to call the artist a homophobic manchild and all his defenders pedophiles. Do you really not see how you've mishandled this?
Then I am afraid you've missed the point completely. Art can be very much influenced by culture and its societal censors much like the subsequent perception of it.
My biggest qualm is with this claim of it being "harmful". While tastes may differ, surreptitiously calling for censorship despite all the evidence of self empowerment because you perceive fantastical proportions in a hand drawn 2D character as an affront to females in gaming culture sounds exceedingly presumptive.
Jathaine
Member
So... let me see if I've got this right.
Your big problem is that her breasts jiggle.
If they were static (more unrealistic than what've got now) or if they took the time to perfect the jiggle to make sure it were super realistic, you wouldn't take issue with this?
Please correct me if I am wrong.
To put it in a much better way I ever could:
Since the last thread some people predicted that is exactly what Jason would do, when some people (I think with good basis) disagreed with the purpose of his comments. You could easily see from the thread title of his original article the last thing he was interested in was civil discussion. He wanted to point fingers and single out people, get a big audience and receive pats on the back for his sharpness.
Delusibeta
Banned
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
George is the man, all this just makes me like him even more. I'm content to believe Jason is just trolling at this point.
Knux-Future
Banned
Your only point is the fact that she has big breasts.
That's it. Why is having a character with big breast a bad thing? Why is having a character that is supposed to be sexy a bad thing? How is that toxic? It is just a design.
A design by itself is harmless. Especially since He explained to you why he designed her and the other characters in this manner. Each character has something about a gender specific feature exagerated. The Amazon it's her butt. Something that is often considered appealing. For the elf it is her thighs and for the sorceress it is her breasts. His design has been explained.
It only becomes sexist or problematic if each of the females were weak had to be saved or storywise were only adventuring for a man or something dumb ike that...but as it stands...it is just a design.
A design cannot be sexist, at least not for the reasons you keep pointing. Big breasts move.
and in the end just have fanservice isnt damaging to anything.
"bu-t but she jiggles and the Dwarf doesn't" is a dumb thing to say since the Dwarf is ROCK btw
That's it. Why is having a character with big breast a bad thing? Why is having a character that is supposed to be sexy a bad thing? How is that toxic? It is just a design.
A design by itself is harmless. Especially since He explained to you why he designed her and the other characters in this manner. Each character has something about a gender specific feature exagerated. The Amazon it's her butt. Something that is often considered appealing. For the elf it is her thighs and for the sorceress it is her breasts. His design has been explained.
It only becomes sexist or problematic if each of the females were weak had to be saved or storywise were only adventuring for a man or something dumb ike that...but as it stands...it is just a design.
A design cannot be sexist, at least not for the reasons you keep pointing. Big breasts move.
and in the end just have fanservice isnt damaging to anything.
"bu-t but she jiggles and the Dwarf doesn't" is a dumb thing to say since the Dwarf is ROCK btw
Corleth the Fey
Member
When I reached the age of 30 - over 10 years ago in fact - I stopped liking breasts.
Huevos de Oro
Member
Because it must feel sometimes like it's a battle they cannot win. They seem to be more focused on the vitriolic attacks instead of the well reasoned, well thought out criticism that's not hard to find in this or any other thread about a controversial issue. Personal attacks and hatred-filled posts are undesirable and in poor form, but I don't think it's that hard to filter out that shit and focus on constructive discussion instead.
Thighs of jelly!
As a man who has large thigh muscles, I feel thoroughly otherized by this grotesque caricaturization of my body type.
But who will be my misinformed white knight when there's no glory in it?
FrostuTheNinja
Member
That or he's trying to get laid.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
The dwarf in general is moving pulsating muscle
Hmm I would like to say he's doing that very wrong then.
I hate to do this, because it's my favorite game series of all time, but...
I think your heart is in the right place, Jason, and I love most of your articles (especially the suikoden ones, which are certainly written from a place of love) but going after a struggling, stalwart japanese indie dev, and then doubling down on it when it becomes a thing, is not a great way to lift up marginalized voices in society above the roar of the oppressive mainstream culture.
You risk doing exactly the opposite -- I'm not sure you realize how much power the american/western press has in affecting the financial health of small japanese developers, but it seems pretty clear from looking at the last console generation and the falloff of unique japanese voices in gaming culture that all the harsh reviews and armchair design critiques have taken their toll. To me and probably some other commenters, the press is the voice of the mainstream, shouting down (at times like these) artistic styles and design ideas which are very unlike the current "best practices" of gaming culture, fresh voices we desperately need. And yes, a sort of comic book game of thrones type of thing, where classic western fantasy tropes are taken to the point of the grotesque/surreal, also counts as a unique voice, even if it also includes boobies.
You can't fight against mainstream oppression by fixating on a few fringe voices. And if the day ever comes, tearing down a new Suikoden for Jeane's ridiculous costumes would be missing everything that makes Suikoden so special.
I think your heart is in the right place, Jason, and I love most of your articles (especially the suikoden ones, which are certainly written from a place of love) but going after a struggling, stalwart japanese indie dev, and then doubling down on it when it becomes a thing, is not a great way to lift up marginalized voices in society above the roar of the oppressive mainstream culture.
You risk doing exactly the opposite -- I'm not sure you realize how much power the american/western press has in affecting the financial health of small japanese developers, but it seems pretty clear from looking at the last console generation and the falloff of unique japanese voices in gaming culture that all the harsh reviews and armchair design critiques have taken their toll. To me and probably some other commenters, the press is the voice of the mainstream, shouting down (at times like these) artistic styles and design ideas which are very unlike the current "best practices" of gaming culture, fresh voices we desperately need. And yes, a sort of comic book game of thrones type of thing, where classic western fantasy tropes are taken to the point of the grotesque/surreal, also counts as a unique voice, even if it also includes boobies.
You can't fight against mainstream oppression by fixating on a few fringe voices. And if the day ever comes, tearing down a new Suikoden for Jeane's ridiculous costumes would be missing everything that makes Suikoden so special.
Karsticles
Member
At least admit that you don't know what the hell a loli is, Schreier.
Goddamn, I thought I hit the low point in my life this week. Life will be awful in 2 years.
Indeed, his muscles are highly animated. I hope they wouldn't "jiggle", because muscles don't do that...
Thighs of jelly!
Son of Cervantes
Member
Hey, Jschreier, congratulations. Your manufactured drama has just led me to delete Kotaku from my bookmarks. So that's one less daily click your tabloid of a site will get daily.