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[Metroidvania]

Rant

What is this I don't even.

You've seen the gif, right? This is not a matter of something that will "catch some players' eyes." We are talking about extraordinary jiggle physics here. We're talking about a character who is designed to appeal to people who like large breasts, which might be perfectly harmless if it weren't part of a culture that, most of the time, only seems designed to appeal to people who like breasts. One small example of a much larger problem.

Yes, I've seen it.

I think it's pretty silly, like I said, but I don't know if the sorceress's physical attributes are part of the much larger problem when compared to the lack of agency in games or the sexism present in the real-life industry is.

Personally, I'm not a fan, but am not offended. However, I do acknowledge the fact my own experiences don't make up that of others, and I can see how people would become offended by the portrayal of the Sorceress's breasts as they are.

Appealing to a certain subset of the populace (while possibly simultaneously offending others) doesn't automatically place an object or character in the 'sexist' category, especially when it's incidentally distracting, but it does not cross over into becoming 'who' the Sorceress is in regards to the way the game is portrayed. It's a part of her character given its prominence/exaggeration the same way the Amazon's Butt/legs or the Dwarf's muscles are, but she's not solely defined by the game as "Big Tits".

Going back to the breast jiggle itself, the Sorceress is sexualized in that regard, but why are the portrayal of her flopping boobs sexist against women, as opposed to being offensive to people who don't like their portrayal ? Would real breasts without a bra not be blown about when explosions/winds/other forceful spells are going off in close proximity?

From what I remember of viewing the Sorceress trailer gameplay, the game didn't go out of its way to highlight that aspect of her character in the same way ME2's Miranda Ass-shots or DoA's close-ups do. It is present quite often, but it was alongside reanimating skeletons, explosions, and other facets of combat.

One final thought, before I leave the office: if all I cared about was pageviews, as so many of you have claimed, why would I still be here? If I didn't care about my readers and my community, why would I have read every post in this thread?

When I get home, I'll try to address as many responses as I can. Please do try to stay civil.

On the same note, saying that you think you're done responding to a thread due to perceived negativity isn't actually promoting civility, to be fair.

Or she's simply part of an overlapping artistic vision in this game.

It's crazy how much tunnel vision there is going towards the Sorceress' character design.

Artistic vision or not, she still is much more sexualized than the Elf. The debate here essentially ties into artistic intent/vision versus ideology/ramifications of representation.

To say that there is no vaguely juvenile purpose to pander with "LOOK BOOBIES" is silly though. Even if it's only her character, that is the purpose of the specific design. It's a pretty design, insane huge breasts and disproportionate everything else aside, but yes it fits into the narrative of "14 year old and lonely otaku bait."

While this may be true, how does pandering such as this suddenly equate to sexism or misogyny? How are women specifically discriminated against by having the Sorceress as an option out of 3 female characters? I grant that some people (both women and men) are offended, while others are evidently not, but does being offended equal being discriminated against?

 

[ultron87]

He didn't like the hyper feminine character, so he posted a hyper-masculine one.

And said that Jason would like it more. The only thing that changed was going from female to male. So he was saying Jason would like something that featured a guy more.

Where is the punchline if it isn't suggesting Jason is gay?

Once again, super tame and not homophobic or anything especially when you consider it wasn't perfectly translated. But it is what it is. The only slightly negative thing it suggests is that being gay is a punchline, but that's not really for this thread.

Probably a nuance with the original text that the translator couldn't pick up on (automated ones are very literal). And that's probably why this message has been filtered through a Japanese/English speaking person.

Certainly possible.

 

[Marmaladefire]

You had me up to here.

What does a character with a huge rack have to do with someone being shouted down online?

One is a character, the other is people putting down a gender*.

The sooner people stop seeing Sorceress as some kind of tool of oppression, the better we can actually look at the sexist domains of gaming.

*I'm assuming that's the perceived notion why girls don't expose themselves online is because they feel they'll be harassed for it right? I've never seen it happen first hand.

Unfortunately it does happen. I've seen it happen to friends of mine, I've gotten some annoyance myself (you want to see white knighting? Have someone find out you're a girl who just started an MMO)

I don't think the Sorceress is a tool of oppression, I think that the fact that people are yelling over criticism of how over the top the design is (Art isn't a magic shield. Since when could art not be looked at critically and in a sociological context?), the idea that game designers are infallible and perpetual victims of big bad "game journalism" and the constant misuse of the term feminism as a pejorative and it's goals as directly harmful to art, gaming, and gamers are the tools of oppression.

 

[kunonabi]

You've seen the gif, right? This is not a matter of something that will "catch some players' eyes." We are talking about extraordinary jiggle physics here. We're talking about a character who is designed to appeal to people who like large breasts, which might be perfectly harmless if it weren't part of a culture that, most of the time, only seems designed to appeal to people who like breasts. One small example of a much larger problem.

Like I've said so many times before, I am not trying to target Dragon's Crown as the worst thing to happen ever. I'm just so sick of seeing the same narrative over and over again in gaming: "hey, this is for you, straight male aged 18-30!" We could be having this same conversation about many other games. We're only having it about this one because I wrote a stupid 4-line snark post and George Kamitani responded to it by making a gay joke on Facebook. (And yes, it was a gay joke. He posted an image of three muscled men hugging and said "The art of the direction which he likes was prepared." Gay jokes are more acceptable in Japan than they are in the States.)

We could be talking about, say, Dead or Alive. Someone brought up Team Ninja before. I recall Team Ninja's Yosuke Hayashi answering, when asked how he would respond to people who called his games sexist, that he wants to "create the cutest chicks in video games." That, to me, certainly seems more problematic than Kamitani's art. But we're talking about Kamitani's art. That's the conversation. And hopefully it will lead to more conversations about how the video game industry treats women both in their games and in real life.

I think that, if we were looking at the sorceress in a vacuum, and if we didn't live in a world where every other week there was a new story about a gross work party, or sexual harassment at PAX, or yet another game that spends time focusing on "boob physics," maybe I wouldn't be up in arms about this.

Please stop bringing up anecdotal examples of females who don't have a problem with Dragon's Crown. I accept that there are women who are OK with this art. I'm OK with women being OK with it. That doesn't make it any less exclusionary or uncomfortable for other women, and it doesn't make it any less problematic to me.

People have asked why I'm focusing on this game and not on real-world issues of sexism at, say, video game companies. I have and will continue to focus on both. If you know of any examples of sexism (or, really any other issues) at video game companies that you think I should be looking into, please send me an e-mail: jason@kotaku.com

Regardless, like I've said over and over again, I've played Dragon's Crown! It's a cool game. I'm looking forward to playing more of it. And I probably won't play as the sorceress, because it'd make me feel pretty gross. I just watched the dwarf trailer again, incidentally. His muscles don't jiggle.

One final thought, before I leave the office: if all I cared about was pageviews, as so many of you have claimed, why would I still be here? If I didn't care about my readers and my community, why would I have read every post in this thread?

When I get home, I'll try to address as many responses as I can. Please do try to stay civil.

So instead of judging her based on her backstory, motivations, personality, or play style you're going to ignore her based on how she looks? Sounds like you're the one relegating her to an object.

 

[Snowden's Secret]

So

If a game starred a character that is literally just a penis, nothing but a floppy flacid genital (his power up can be an erection) would that be sexual objectification? The character is a sexual object after all.

And is this a bad thing? Sexual objects are bad?

I'm actually surprised that Jason didn't have the forethought to think this through before posting his article, and realize that his upbringing in a puritanical value system like the US has made him uncomfortable with sexuality (but cool with violence). Why does he see a sexualized image of a female as a bad thing? Because his value system tells him sex is bad. Why is an image of some scantily clad dudes automatically homoerotic? Because his values told him sex is bad and gay is bad, so this must be bad.

 

[Hero]

You know, a whole lot of people have been sending me nasty messages about this (while ignoring the rest of that post it came from). I was under the impression that a woman with a young girl's face and large breasts could be "lolicon," but I am not exactly an expert on lolicon culture. If I'm wrong, I apologize for the error.

But, look, I really don't care if you like the designs of the sorceress. You're allowed to enjoy cartoon witches with giant breasts in skimpy clothing. I'm just baffled at how many people don't see why people like me consider it problematic.

So basically, your job at being a writer and using your knowledge of the English language to form paragraphs made up of sentences constructed from words means nothing when you apparently can't take a minute or two to bother doing basic internet research to understand what a word really means? This is bad comedy.

Also, you admit you're not an expert on lolicon culture. What makes you an expert in womens' rights/sexism? Have you taken any college classes on the subject?

 

[Son of Cervantes]

I stopped going to Kotaku last year and have encouraged at least two of my friends to do the same. I'm all about having the conversation about sexism in video games and in the video game industry, but I think Dragon's Crown is harmless and shouldn't be the scapegoat for a larger problem.

I agree, but since it's a game by a super small developer like Vanillaware, Kotaku can slam it with very few repercussions. Must've been like Christmas morning for Jschreier when he saw Kamitani had actually responded to his snarky blog post!

 

[Tellaerin]

"Angry feminists" should continue to be angry because look at this thread. Look at all the threads about women in video games. Because it doesn't affect them on a personal level, some people think that they can stick their fingers in their ears and pretend that each individual representation of a woman in games, or treatment of a woman in the industry exists in a vacuum. It doesn't. This design isn't the worst thing ever to happen, obviously, and especially in a niche where games where you feel up 12 year olds and creep on your little sister are some of the most anticipated titles of the year, but pretending it doesn't have a place in the conversation is ridiculous. This has absolutely everything to do with why women are treated unfairly in the industry, the "boy's club" image, the lack of realistically written women in games, and why you can't even "out" yourself as a girl online in many games and gaming communities. The sorceress is not the root of the problem, even though some people seem to be taking that as what was said, she's just a symptom.

She's neither.

Unless you consider the idea of men finding large-breasted women attractive a problem that needs fixing, which is the impression I'm getting from several posters in this thread.

Part of the reason you're seeing such a passionate pushback on this topic is because the people who want more diversity and better representation of female characters in games never seem to be able to frame that in those terms. Instead, it's always presented as, "These things in games are bad, and if you like them, you're a bad person. These things should be purged from all games because some of us don't like them."

Speaking for myself, I'll gladly back up anyone who feels they're underserved by the current market and wants more games catering to their particular interests. There should be games for everyone. Insinuating that I'm a horrible human being who harbors sexist attitudes towards women in the real world because I like seeing sexy, busty characters in the games I play, that I should be ashamed of that fact - and developers should be likewise ashamed and deliberately downplay or eliminate characters like that from their games - that comes off as an attack. That's the way people insist on approaching this topic, and it's the reason it's so divisive.

 

[Metrotab]

Unfortunately it does happen. I've seen it happen to friends of mine, I've gotten some annoyance myself (you want to see white knighting? Have someone find out you're a girl who just started an MMO)

I don't think the Sorceress is a tool of oppression, I think that the fact that people are yelling over criticism of how over the top the design is (Art isn't a magic shield. Since when could art not be looked at critically and in a sociological context?), the idea that game designers are infallible and perpetual victims of big bad "game journalism" and the constant misuse of the term feminism as a pejorative and it's goals as directly harmful to art, gaming, and gamers are the tools of oppression.

That's not what happened here with the awful Kotaku article. The art was simply insulted and demeaned, out of ignorance no less. And it was almost implied that liking this character design makes you part of the problem.

 

[thumb]

I'm actually surprised that Jason didn't have the forethought to think this through before posting his article, and realize that his upbringing in a puritanical value system like the US has made him uncomfortable with sexuality (but cool with violence). Why does he see a sexualized image of a female as a bad thing? Because his value system tells him sex is bad. Why is an image of some scantily clad dudes automatically homoerotic? Because his values told him sex is bad and gay is bad, so this must be bad.

I don't agree with everything Jason has argued, but can we stop psychoanalyzing each other's motivations and backgrounds? Most of these are ad hominem attacks.

 

[blitzcloud]

this guy is awesome and there's nothing else to say, honestly. D&D arcade was amazing and this is going to be amazing, and the guy clearly has a sense of humor and polite enough to show some empathy. Completely agree with the "make the design stand out". Every character is overly exaggerated in some aspect.

 

[Trakdown]

What happened to the "if only one person is offended by it", shouldn't you take into consideration that some women don't mind it at all or they don't count?

If he really felt that way he wouldn't dare try being a journalist.

 

[Slayven]

Is this like the Tiny Tina thing from awhile back?

 

[Pristine_Condition]

I don't think the Sorceress is a tool of oppression, I think that the fact that people are yelling over criticism of how over the top the design is (Art isn't a magic shield. Since when could art not be looked at critically and in a sociological context?), the idea that game designers are infallible and perpetual victims of big bad "game journalism" and the constant misuse of the term feminism as a pejorative and it's goals as directly harmful to art, gaming, and gamers are the tools of oppression.

Actually, I'd argue Schreier's notion that a model of a woman with large breasts in a low-cut top is "a harmful work of art," is directly harmful to art. I'd also argue that it is directly harmful to the goal of feminism as well.

 

[LiK]

Kamitani's letter clearly says he exaggerated them to "cartoonish" levels. You know, it means unrealistic.

 

[Marmaladefire]

While this may be true, how does pandering such as this suddenly equate to sexism or misogyny? How are women specifically discriminated against by having the Sorceress as an option out of 3 female characters? I grant that some people (both women and men) are offended, while others are evidently not, but does being offended equal being discriminated against?

It's not inherently sexist, but the anger at the idea that someone would call this out, even in a snarky gawker media owned blog post is concerning. It means that people don't care. Even worse than that they are actively angry that someone would even bring it up or point it out. They don't want to talk about it because they feel like they are being attacked, they don't care that a subset of the community is often made to feel uncomfortable or lesser than. It's the same knee jerk reaction that happens every time someone brings up women in games.

 

[Tain]

now if only we could have this level of passion concerning the game's likely non-arcade structure~

 

[Persona86]

I wonder how many more people (14 year olds) are going to buy this game for the boobies after hearing about all this drama, oh the irony, what a cruel fate!

Damn those kids ruining the image of our industry! I've had enough of these people looking down on me because of a few sexist perverts!! I say we send every person that reaches the age of 14 to boob camp, wash out the tits from their very soul.

Glorious days are ahead of us, no more pixels will made to suffer a lack of clothing. Pixels have no freewill, this is pure pixel slavery! What's next? Pixel murder!? Racist pixels!?

Join us on twitter to follow our cause! The day will come my friends, we shall never see a pair of big bouncy tits ever again!

Spoiler

Don't mind me, I'm obviously bored and rather strange

 

[Delusibeta]

Is this like the Tiny Tina thing from awhile back?

It's more or less the same thing, except with sexism instead of racism and a small Japanese developer instead of an AAA Western developer.

 

[AdventureRacing]

You've seen the gif, right? This is not a matter of something that will "catch some players' eyes." We are talking about extraordinary jiggle physics here.

We're talking about a character in a game where all of the art is drawn in an extremely over the top manner. That's the whole point, that is why the proportions and the physics are so extraordinary. You continue to insult the design without actually understanding the context.

We're talking about a character who is designed to appeal to people who like large breasts, which might be perfectly harmless if it weren't part of a culture that, most of the time, only seems designed to appeal to people who like breasts. One small example of a much larger problem.

There are other characters in the game. You can play as a fully clothed elf who is well proportioned or as the extremely chiseled amazon character (who happens to have very small breasts for her size). This is a game that actually has some variety of female characters and yet it's strangely the one you are attacking.

No matter how many times you say 'but her titties are huge' it doesn't make the character inherently sexist. A character can be portrayed in a sexual manner without it being sexist, it all depends on the context it is used. I would argue that the extremely over the top nature of this art style and the fact that it actually includes other body types for people who don't like it makes the use of the design in this case ok.

Like I've said so many times before, I am not trying to target Dragon's Crown as the worst thing to happen ever. I'm just so sick of seeing the same narrative over and over again in gaming: "hey, this is for you, straight male aged 18-30!" We could be having this same conversation about many other games.

Yes we could but you chose to single out this one example. This is a much wider issue then one character with big breasts in fact i would argue that is a smaller issue in the grand scheme of things. If anything i would argue that most games being an FPS featuring big burly bald blokes is a much better example of this industry just catering to males aged 18-30 (rather than a niche Japanese game which actually DOES appeal to women).

We're only having it about this one because I wrote a stupid 4-line snark post and George Kamitani responded to it by making a gay joke on Facebook. (And yes, it was a gay joke. He posted an image of three muscled men hugging and said "The art of the direction which he likes was prepared." Gay jokes are more acceptable in Japan than they are in the States.)

He gave context for that reply and it doesn't sound like he was making a gay joke.

We could be talking about, say, Dead or Alive. Someone brought up Team Ninja before. I recall Team Ninja's Yosuke Hayashi answering, when asked how he would respond to people who called his games sexist, that he wants to "create the cutest chicks in video games." That, to me, certainly seems more problematic than Kamitani's art. But we're talking about Kamitani's art. That's the conversation. And hopefully it will lead to more conversations about how the video game industry treats women both in their games and in real life.

But why are we talking about Kamitani's art? The DOA games are an actual example of what you're talking about so why not focus on that? Instead you pick out this single game where the argument doesn't even apply.

I think that, if we were looking at the sorceress in a vacuum, and if we didn't live in a world where every other week there was a new story about a gross work party, or sexual harassment at PAX, or yet another game that spends time focusing on "boob physics," maybe I wouldn't be up in arms about this.

So now the context of the art becomes important? You completely ignore the context with which the art applies to and then cry foul because people ignore the context that the art applies to. You're the one looking at the sorceress art in a vacuum when you ignore the actual game that it's a part of.

Please stop bringing up anecdotal examples of females who don't have a problem with Dragon's Crown. I accept that there are women who are OK with this art. I'm OK with women being OK with it. That doesn't make it any less exclusionary or uncomfortable for other women, and it doesn't make it any less problematic to me.

So anything that is offensive to anyone is problematic? So there can never be sexualised characters? What about games involving violence or murder? That isn't how art works and it never will or should be.

Also what you're doing in this post is a much bigger problem with sexism in the industry and this has been pointed out by female posters on here. You're ignoring the voices of women disagreeing with you and instead turning it into men discussing with other men what is good for women.

Yet again you are also ignoring that the game features other female characters. If you don't like the sorceress use the amazon or the elf who are designed completely differently.

My biggest problem with this is it's demeaning to women who actually look like this character (or at least see themselves that way) and to people who like the character. MY GF loves the sorceress design and is actually planning to dress up as her to a fancy dress party. How is she supposed to feel when she reads these posts or articles from people such as yourself implying that she is basically encouraging sexism by supporting and liking this character.

It also is kinda insulting to girls with big breasts. Sure her breasts aren't as big as this character but when she looked at the designs that is the one she most identified with (large breast, very curvy). This whole discussion is basically implying there is something wrong with that and something wrong with trying to look sexy.

His muscles don't jiggle.

I'm not sure if you've ever met someone who has even moderate sized muscles but they don't really jiggle. Not sure how familiar you are with breasts but they do tend to jiggle (especially large ones of course). Not quite like in the game but that is a strange point to make.

 

[TentPole]

It's not inherently sexist, but the anger at the idea that someone would call this out, even in a snarky gawker media owned blog post is concerning. It means that people don't care. Even worse than that they are actively angry that someone would even bring it up or point it out. They don't want to talk about it because they feel like they are being attacked, they don't care that a subset of the community is often made to feel uncomfortable or lesser than. It's the same knee jerk reaction that happens every time someone brings up women in games.

To be fair they are in fact being labeled, insulted, and attacked.

 

[Metrotab]

It's not inherently sexist, but the anger at the idea that someone would call this out, even in a snarky gawker media owned blog post is concerning. It means that people don't care. Even worse than that they are actively angry that someone would even bring it up or point it out. They don't want to talk about it because they feel like they are being attacked, they don't care that a subset of the community is often made to feel uncomfortable or lesser than. It's the same knee jerk reaction that happens every time someone brings up women in games.

I'm only angry because this whole Dragon's Crown issue feels like, and is, a direct attack on auteurism when it doesn't align with the sensible values of political correctness. This deeply offends me, and that's not a joke.

The moment feminism means artistic stiflement is the moment I disassociate myself with the movement.

Until then, I'm still a feminist.

 

[JakOfTheShadows]

Honestly I don't care about her design. I'm still going to get the game, I've played and enjoyed games like it, I'm very familiar with Kamitani's style. To say that there is no vaguely juvenile purpose to pander with "LOOK BOOBIES" is silly though. Even if it's only her character, that is the purpose of the specific design. It's a pretty design, insane huge breasts and disproportionate everything else aside, but yes it fits into the narrative of "14 year old and lonely otaku bait." I don't really think a 2 sentence snark post deserved all the outrage it garnered from the Gamer's Rights Activists brigade.

Do you view things of a sexual nature as being inherently juvenile? Is someone who enjoys, participates in, or creates things of a sexual nature less of an adult? Is this the basis for your 14 year old boy narrative.

 

[bone_and_sinew]

I agree, but since it's a game by a super small developer like Vanillaware, Kotaku can slam it with very few repercussions. Must've been like Christmas morning for Jschreier when he saw Kamitani had actually responded to his snarky blog post!

I want to see Kotaku slam a big budget western AAA title and not easy targets like niche Japanese games. I want to see Kotaku continue slamming said big budget western AAA title after the publisher pulls out their ads for it on their site. THAT would make respect them. That would make me believe they're sincere about making a change in the gaming industry and not just bandwagoning on a hot button topic for page hits. Until then, who ya crappin' Kotaku?

 

[bishopcruz]

You've seen the gif, right? This is not a matter of something that will "catch some players' eyes." We are talking about extraordinary jiggle physics here. We're talking about a character who is designed to appeal to people who like large breasts, which might be perfectly harmless if it weren't part of a culture that, most of the time, only seems designed to appeal to people who like breasts. One small example of a much larger problem.

You're looking at a very specific section of the culture and ignoring the y'know massive part of the gaming world that does target females, and does well at it. The reason that most of these games target males, is because mostly men buy them. It's doubly true in the case of a game like Dragon's Crown which looks to be targeting a specific anime demo. Does that mean that women don't buy and play these games? Hell no, but why would a minority of players be a focus of a particular niche title?

Like I've said so many times before, I am not trying to target Dragon's Crown as the worst thing to happen ever. I'm just so sick of seeing the same narrative over and over again in gaming: "hey, this is for you, straight male aged 18-30!" We could be having this same conversation about many other games. We're only having it about this one because I wrote a stupid 4-line snark post and George Kamitani responded to it by making a gay joke on Facebook. (And yes, it was a gay joke. He posted an image of three muscled men hugging and said "The art of the direction which he likes was prepared." Gay jokes are more acceptable in Japan than they are in the States.)

Try or not, you DID target Dragon's Crown as a prime example. Kamitani responded with a jest, that was again taken far too hard, (especially looking at the history of the joke as he stated in his letter) and went on from there. The fact that it was machine translated I'm sure just helped to make the context clearer.

We could be talking about, say, Dead or Alive. Someone brought up Team Ninja before. I recall Team Ninja's Yosuke Hayashi answering, when asked how he would respond to people who called his games sexist, that he wants to "create the cutest chicks in video games." That, to me, certainly seems more problematic than Kamitani's art. But we're talking about Kamitani's art. That's the conversation. And hopefully it will lead to more conversations about how the video game industry treats women both in their games and in real life.

And what pray tell is inherently wrong with wanting to create the "cutest chicks in videogames"? Team Ninja is very upfront about what they do, how they do it, and what their games contain. Who cares? Their fans like it, others don't. That should be the end of it.

But no, we have to talk about how it's symptomatic of something larger in the industry blah blah blah... yakkity schmackity... when honestly overtly sexualized depictions of females have been on the downturn since say the PS1 era where it seemed that every other western developed title had an absurdly proportioned lady in tight clothing as nothing but eye candy. But the story is never how things are adapting, how new niches are forming or anything like that. Burn them.

I think that, if we were looking at the sorceress in a vacuum, and if we didn't live in a world where every other week there was a new story about a gross work party, or sexual harassment at PAX, or yet another game that spends time focusing on "boob physics," maybe I wouldn't be up in arms about this.

Whatever the issues internally may be and how far reaching they might be, there has to be a disconnect between the artistic side of things, and the HR side. The problems that are talked about have thus far been anecdotal, and awful. What would probably be a lot more useful would be, I dunno, actually doing research to see how widespread the issues of sexism really are (in some quantifiable way) as well as look at WHY some of these issues occur (far to often these stories are just: Guys in gaming industry suck.)

Please stop bringing up anecdotal examples of females who don't have a problem with Dragon's Crown. I accept that there are women who are OK with this art. I'm OK with women being OK with it. That doesn't make it any less exclusionary or uncomfortable for other women, and it doesn't make it any less problematic to me.

So what you are saying is that your anecdotes and opinions are more important than the opinions of others. Good to know.

I understand that you find the Sorceress offensive and exclusionary. I disagree, we can discuss the points of why. When you use a public soapbox to call your readers sexist and the artist a man child, you pretty much demean not only a large percent of your readership, but put most people on the defensive, a poor place from which to begin a discussion.

People have asked why I'm focusing on this game and not on real-world issues of sexism at, say, video game companies. I have and will continue to focus on both. If you know of any examples of sexism (or, really any other issues) at video game companies that you think I should be looking into, please send me an e-mail: jason@kotaku.com

But again, this is the real issue, and its one that the games journalism industry has done a piss poor job of actually reporting on. There has been a lot of sturm and drang and very little of actual substance. Far too much reporting has been done on isolated incidents, personal anecdotes, and responses to the above. There has to be a way of actually seeing how widespread the problem actually is, what the opinions of those in the industry actually are, and why the problematic (the ones that pretty much everyone agrees on) situations occur. Are men not realizing their behavior? Do they simply not care, is there a conflict of culture as what has been a boys club gains more and more females in its ranks, is it a side effect of the "Hollywood" style parties that rose up in the 90s? I have yet to see any of those questions asked, let alone answered.

Everything is still so focused on superficial outrage.

Regardless, like I've said over and over again, I've played Dragon's Crown! It's a cool game. I'm looking forward to playing more of it. And I probably won't play as the sorceress, because it'd make me feel pretty gross. I just watched the dwarf trailer again, incidentally. His muscles don't jiggle.

One final thought, before I leave the office: if all I cared about was pageviews, as so many of you have claimed, why would I still be here? If I didn't care about my readers and my community, why would I have read every post in this thread?

When I get home, I'll try to address as many responses as I can. Please do try to stay civil.

For what it is worth, I doubt it was a page view issue, I do think you care about engaging the community, however I do also notice (as in the twitter conversation) an us vs them mentality that often comes up in times of controversy. I remember it really seemed to come to a head around the time of the ME3 controversy, and it's been around ever since. Maybe it's always been a part of the gaming press, maybe twitter now let's everyone in to see, I don't know. But often times it comes across as insulting and condescending, and it's hard to read anything other than that into the intent.

 

[blitzcloud]

also, One piece. you're next!

So potentially, lesbian gamers aren't attracted to boobs at all? My, the things you learn.

Oh come on...

 

[Odrion]

As someone who has made his living entirely in the arts for almost fifteen years, (If I don't make my work, I quite literally don't eat.) I'm baffled by people like you who have such unevolved and disrespectful attitudes towards art and artists.

I work in photography. I thank God that in my industry critics and journalists covering my medium don't act like you and your lot. If we did, perhaps the chilling effect would have meant no one would see important work by the likes of Arbus ("Oh, she exploits poor people and freaks!"), Saudek ("oh, look at how he sexualizes women!!!",) and Helnwein ("OMG!!! Nazi imagery!!!"). If people like you lot were placed in a position to have a significant voice in photography, Robert Mapplethorpe would have been stuck taking "those pretty pictures of flowers," and Steven Meisel would have been told by his rep to stick to taking "pretty" pictures of models, without any of that troubling "social commentary stuff."

No, in my medium, critics and journalists by and large would stand up for the artist, and want the art to speak for itself, and want to promote art to the widest audience possible, even if it is work that may be controversial or even downright disturbing. See, art that is not stifled is healthy art. Let the art speak for itself, and let the people (and the market) ultimately decide. Criticism is done, but it is done with a conscience for how such criticism should never stifle free expression.

As video games become more sophisticated in terms of visuals, perhaps you aren't cut out for being in this position as a commentator on a medium inching ever closer to fine art. Perhaps you should move into writing about politics, if you thing a large-breasted figure is so dangerous that it needs to be labeled "a harmful work of art." I think the art and artists who want to do interesting, personal work and not just cookie-cutter, committee-approved shit would thank you for exiting the field you are so clearly not committed to the future of. For this medium to grow artistically, it will require advocates of artists, not judgemental folks offended so easily, and so eager to throw labels on artists.

Oh MAN this is a good post.

 

[Averon]

As someone who has made his living entirely in the arts for almost fifteen years, (If I don't make my work, I quite literally don't eat.) I'm baffled by people like you who have such unevolved and disrespectful attitudes towards art and artists.

I work in photography. I thank God that in my industry critics and journalists covering my medium don't act like you and your lot. If we did, perhaps the chilling effect would have meant no one would see important work by the likes of Arbus ("Oh, she exploits poor people and freaks!"), Saudek ("oh, look at how he sexualizes women!!!",) and Helnwein ("OMG!!! Nazi imagery!!!"). If people like you lot were placed in a position to have a significant voice in photography, Robert Mapplethorpe would have been stuck taking "those pretty pictures of flowers," and Steven Meisel would have been told by his rep to stick to taking "pretty" pictures of models, without any of that troubling "social commentary stuff."

No, in my medium, critics and journalists by and large would stand up for the artist, and want the art to speak for itself, and want to promote art to the widest audience possible, even if it is work that may be controversial or even downright disturbing. See, art that is not stifled is healthy art. Let the art speak for itself, and let the people (and the market) ultimately decide. Criticism is done, but it is done with a conscience for how such criticism should never stifle free expression.

As video games become more sophisticated in terms of visuals, perhaps you aren't cut out for being in this position as a commentator on a medium inching ever closer to fine art. Perhaps you should move into writing about politics, if you thing a large-breasted figure is so dangerous that it needs to be labeled "a harmful work of art." I think the art and artists who want to do interesting, personal work and not just cookie-cutter, committee-approved shit would thank you for exiting the field you are so clearly not committed to the future of. For this medium to grow artistically, it will require advocates of artists, not judgemental folks offended so easily, and so eager to throw labels on artists.

great post. Pretty much mirrors my stance. The attempt to get game creators to self censor themselves through shaming is my biggest problem with all this.

 

[Chie Satonaka]

also, One piece. you're next!

You stop.

I'm not even joking. If people attack my delicious, delicious One Piece, I'm likely to go clean off. And that's scary! I'll write some dangerous posts!

Everyone should love One Piece. ; ;

 

[Knux-Future]

Kamitani's letter clearly says he exaggerated them to "cartoonish" levels. You know, it means unrealistic.

I've pointed this out multiple times and it gets overlooked or ignroed as it doesnt matter.

It's not inherently sexist, but the anger at the idea that someone would call this out, even in a snarky gawker media owned blog post is concerning. It means that people don't care. Even worse than that they are actively angry that someone would even bring it up or point it out. They don't want to talk about it because they feel like they are being attacked, they don't care that a subset of the community is often made to feel uncomfortable or lesser than. It's the same knee jerk reaction that happens every time someone brings up women in games.

No once again...most people are upset because it is an attack on them...even if unintended. I doubt anyone is actually mad that someone would bring up that something is sexist....what they do mind it that this person is bringing up something as sexist when it really isn't and then digging himself a hole via insults and snarky lines.

Sexism or any ism is a loaded word. It's not like saying that I think this thing you like is bad. That doesn't mean that you or bad or anything and it can be whatever.. Calling something sexist means that anyone who likes it is also sexist or at least okay with sexism..

people tend to take offense to that...hence the anger.

and once again...it's a design and nothing more...his issue is that her breast are crazy huge and they flop around. Breast can be big and they often move around. It;s not like she is useless and weak and timid...no since is out there getting things done and has the situation under control. She is powerful and so happens to be sexy and have big breast. Is it sexualized? Hell yeah but that by itself isn't a harmful thin by itself. The timid behavior and weakness would be what is harmful.

 

[QisTopTier]

But is she also a paedophile?

Nah but she finds nyaners hilarious

 

[Metroidvania]

It's not inherently sexist, but the anger at the idea that someone would call this out, even in a snarky gawker media owned blog post is concerning. It means that people don't care. Even worse than that they are actively angry that someone would even bring it up or point it out. They don't want to talk about it because they feel like they are being attacked, they don't care that a subset of the community is often made to feel uncomfortable or lesser than. It's the same knee jerk reaction that happens every time someone brings up women in games.

But if you agree with the statement that it's not inherently sexist, and then someone comes along and says that it is sexist, and is part of the larger problem of sexism in the video game industry, and insults or implies (or at least gives the perception of doing so) that both the artist and the people who enjoy that character or even the game in general because it has sexism-related issues(the 14 year old and lolicon comments)...

Why would people not get defensive, especially when they don't agree with an opinion that appears to be attacking/shaming them for liking/having an interest in a product?

edit: Knux beat me again, lol.

 

[Hero]

As someone who has made his living entirely in the arts for almost fifteen years, (If I don't make my work, I quite literally don't eat.) I'm baffled by people like you who have such unevolved and disrespectful attitudes towards art and artists.

I work in photography. I thank God that in my industry critics and journalists covering my medium don't act like you and your lot. If we did, perhaps the chilling effect would have meant no one would see important work by the likes of Arbus ("Oh, she exploits poor people and freaks!"), Saudek ("oh, look at how he sexualizes women!!!",) and Helnwein ("OMG!!! Nazi imagery!!!"). If people like you lot were placed in a position to have a significant voice in photography, Robert Mapplethorpe would have been stuck taking "those pretty pictures of flowers," and Steven Meisel would have been told by his rep to stick to taking "pretty" pictures of models, without any of that troubling "social commentary stuff."

No, in my medium, critics and journalists by and large would stand up for the artist, and want the art to speak for itself, and want to promote art to the widest audience possible, even if it is work that may be controversial or even downright disturbing. See, art that is not stifled is healthy art. Let the art speak for itself, and let the people (and the market) ultimately decide. Criticism is done, but it is done with a conscience for how such criticism should never stifle free expression.

As video games become more sophisticated in terms of visuals, perhaps you aren't cut out for being in this position as a commentator on a medium inching ever closer to fine art. Perhaps you should move into writing about politics, if you thing a large-breasted figure is so dangerous that it needs to be labeled "a harmful work of art." I think the art and artists who want to do interesting, personal work and not just cookie-cutter, committee-approved shit would thank you for exiting the field you are so clearly not committed to the future of. For this medium to grow artistically, it will require advocates of artists, not judgemental folks offended so easily, and so eager to throw labels on artists.

Pretty great post and hits the nail on the head. "Game journalism" loves to point out ISSUES when they themselves are a pretty large contributor to the cesspool. The industry and the consumers deserve much better than the current level of journalism expressed in recent years.

 

[Shosai]

I'm only angry because this whole Dragon's Crown issue feels like, and is, a direct attack on auteurism when it doesn't align with the sensible values of political correctness. This deeply offends me, and that's not a joke.

What separates game criticism, from the category of rage-inducing game criticism that is seen as an attack on auteurism? Maxis defended their "vision" of a Simcity designed to be always-online, which really didn't stop a lot of people from complaining that their design was groan-inducing.

 

[AlexBasch]

Oh come on...

See, I thought of changing my avatar once because of this kind of reply. Not worth it. I like anime drawings of attractive females, not gonna hide it. If this makes me some sort of sexist, macho pig that doesn't respect women because of the avatar I sport in a gaming forum, be my guest.

Shit, I couldn't talk about RE6 sometimes because "hurr durr ur wearin a leons avatar hurr". It's just comedic at this point.

 

[blitzcloud]

You stop.

I'm not even joking. If people attack my delicious, delicious One Piece, I'm likely to go clean off. And that's scary! I'll write some dangerous posts!

Everyone should love One Piece. ; ;

everybody should. But man, when OP gets big in videogames too, it's only a matter of time someone points at Nami and calls it sexualized, or how it mocks transvestite people with awkward extravagant behaviour and looks that will haunt you for the rest of your life.

For everyone who is not trying to raise drama over society "taboos", though, it's meant to be funny and not harmful as one of the most epic characters is an okama.

See, I thought of changing my avatar once because of this kind of reply. Not worth it. I like anime drawings of attractive females, not gonna hide it. If this makes me some sort of sexist, macho pig that doesn't respect women because of the avatar I sport in a gaming forum, be my guest.

Shit, I couldn't talk about RE6 sometimes because "hurr durr ur wearin a leons avatar hurr". It's just comedic at this point.

That's all you see in your picture? Really?

 

[Marmaladefire]

Actually, I'd argue Schreier's notion that a model of a woman with large breasts in a low-cut top is "a harmful work of art," is directly harmful to art. I'd also argue that it is directly harmful to the goal of feminism as well.

I agree with this. I don't think all women with large breasts in art with or without low cut tops are harmful, and feminism is about equality for all. (even women with hyper feminine features who bounce around in low cut tops) I think if Schreier had specified that within the context of the current climate of our community, we should stop and look at these thing critically sometimes "what does this mean, what is this saying, who does this speak to, and for?" while still allowing these things to exist, he may have gotten a better reaction.

She's neither.

Unless you consider the idea of men finding large-breasted women attractive a problem that needs fixing

I don't.

Insinuating that I'm a horrible human being who harbors sexist attitudes towards women in the real world because I like seeing sexy, busty characters in the games I play, that I should be ashamed of that fact - and developers should be likewise ashamed and deliberately downplay or eliminate characters like that from their games - that comes off as an attack. That's the way people insist on approaching this topic, and it's the reason it's so divisive.

I also like sexy characters, who are not just objects. They could put two melons on a twig with a wig and call it the hottest woman ever seen in gaming for all I care, if they would give her some decent writing and purpose. The problem isn't with women being sexy in games, it's with women being nothing beyond that. Sex objects without decent motivation, backstory or memorable personality to speak of. Since the game has not yet been released, the post was made purely based on the physical attributes of the character. I don't know anything about how she plays, or her story, but if it's good, I'm happy.

 

[APF]

It's a message board. I'm allowed to communicate to people what I feel.

You actually aren't. There's a code of conduct you must follow, and things you won't be allowed to say without being banned.

 

[abadguy]

As someone who has made his living entirely in the arts for almost fifteen years, (If I don't make my work, I quite literally don't eat.) I'm baffled by people like you who have such unevolved and disrespectful attitudes towards art and artists.

I work in photography. I thank God that in my industry critics and journalists covering my medium don't act like you and your lot. If we did, perhaps the chilling effect would have meant no one would see important work by the likes of Arbus ("Oh, she exploits poor people and freaks!"), Saudek ("oh, look at how he sexualizes women!!!",) and Helnwein ("OMG!!! Nazi imagery!!!"). If people like you lot were placed in a position to have a significant voice in photography, Robert Mapplethorpe would have been stuck taking "those pretty pictures of flowers," and Steven Meisel would have been told by his rep to stick to taking "pretty" pictures of models, without any of that troubling "social commentary stuff."

No, in my medium, critics and journalists by and large would stand up for the artist, and want the art to speak for itself, and want to promote art to the widest audience possible, even if it is work that may be controversial or even downright disturbing. See, art that is not stifled is healthy art. Let the art speak for itself, and let the people (and the market) ultimately decide. Criticism is done, but it is done with a conscience for how such criticism should never stifle free expression.

As video games become more sophisticated in terms of visuals, perhaps you aren't cut out for being in this position as a commentator on a medium inching ever closer to fine art. Perhaps you should move into writing about politics, if you thing a large-breasted figure is so dangerous that it needs to be labeled "a harmful work of art." I think the art and artists who want to do interesting, personal work and not just cookie-cutter, committee-approved shit would thank you for exiting the field you are so clearly not committed to the future of. For this medium to grow artistically, it will require advocates of artists, not judgemental folks offended so easily, and so eager to throw labels on artists.

Great post.

 

[TentPole]

What separates game criticism, from the category of rage-inducing game criticism that is seen as an attack on auteurism? Maxis defended their "vision" of a Simcity designed to be always-online, which really didn't stop a lot of people from complaining that their design was groan-inducing.

I think there is a difference between saying that someone is a bad game designer that made a bad game, and saying that someone is a bad person disrespectful to woman. The latter ceases to be game criticism and becomes something else entirely.

 

[AlexBasch]

That's all you see in your picture? Really?

Tell me what kind of avatar should I use then. I don't want to offend anybody anymore. I'm sorry.

Are you referring to the phallic reference of the staff between her breasts? Look up for more of the artist's work, this one is kinda tame.

 

[Trakdown]

Kamitani's letter clearly says he exaggerated them to "cartoonish" levels. You know, it means unrealistic.

The fact that he has to explain this about a medieval fantasy video game honestly scares me. How many more layers of "it's not real" do people need?

 

[JordanN]

Unfortunately it does happen. I've seen it happen to friends of mine, I've gotten some annoyance myself (you want to see white knighting? Have someone find out you're a girl who just started an MMO)

I don't think the Sorceress is a tool of oppression, I think that the fact that people are yelling over criticism of how over the top the design is (Art isn't a magic shield. Since when could art not be looked at critically and in a sociological context?), the idea that game designers are infallible and perpetual victims of big bad "game journalism" and the constant misuse of the term feminism as a pejorative and it's goals as directly harmful to art, gaming, and gamers are the tools of oppression.

It's not criticism that's allowed, it's criticism where there is none.

Nothing wrong with someone who doesn't like big tits. It's when someone turns this love affair into something it's not. That is, linking Sorceress to actual sexism in gaming or saying it has anything do with being exclusionary.

So this is where I had condemnation when you called it a "symptom" (if this was your intention).

 

[Jathaine]

I also like sexy characters, who are not just objects. They could put two melons on a twig with a wig and call it the hottest woman ever seen in gaming for all I care, if they would give her some decent writing and purpose. The problem isn't with women being sexy in games, it's with women being nothing beyond that. Sex objects without decent motivation, backstory or memorable personality to speak of. Since the game has not yet been released, the post was made purely based on the physical attributes of the character. I don't know anything about how she plays, or her story, but if it's good, I'm happy.

Yeah, if everyone took this stance there wouldn't BE a shitstorm.
She's a main character with just as much agency as everyone else as far as we can tell so far.

 

[blitzcloud]

Tell me what kind of avatar should I use then. I don't want to offend anybody anymore. I'm sorry.

Are you referring to the phallic reference of the staff between her breasts? Look up for more of the artist's work, this one is kinda tame.

Hey i'm not offended lol. I just pointed out how your point can be moot for many people when you have an avatar or a pseudo paizuri with a red-shiny-tip staff that apparently tastes good for the character.

 

[Yopis]

The fact that he has to explain this about a medieval fantasy video game honestly scares me. How many more layers of "it's not real" do people need?

Yeah makes me shake my head man. Guess gaming is the new frontier of the crusade. More variety is good but the shaming tactics are tiresome.

 

[Shosai]

I think there is a difference between saying that someone is a bad game designer that made a bad game and saying that someone is a bad person disrespectful to woman.

Game designers routinely get called far worse.

 

[jdl]

I guess Kotaku is doing Vanillaware a favor after all. In that case, keep stirring the controversy.

 

[i-Lo]

As someone who has made his living entirely in the arts for almost fifteen years, (If I don't make my work, I quite literally don't eat.) I'm baffled by people like you who have such unevolved and disrespectful attitudes towards art and artists.

I work in photography. I thank God that in my industry critics and journalists covering my medium don't act like you and your lot. If we did, perhaps the chilling effect would have meant no one would see important work by the likes of Arbus ("Oh, she exploits poor people and freaks!"), Saudek ("oh, look at how he sexualizes women!!!",) and Helnwein ("OMG!!! Nazi imagery!!!"). If people like you lot were placed in a position to have a significant voice in photography, Robert Mapplethorpe would have been stuck taking "those pretty pictures of flowers," and Steven Meisel would have been told by his rep to stick to taking "pretty" pictures of models, without any of that troubling "social commentary stuff."

No, in my medium, critics and journalists by and large would stand up for the artist, and want the art to speak for itself, and want to promote art to the widest audience possible, even if it is work that may be controversial or even downright disturbing. See, art that is not stifled is healthy art. Let the art speak for itself, and let the people (and the market) ultimately decide. Criticism is done, but it is done with a conscience for how such criticism should never stifle free expression.

As video games become more sophisticated in terms of visuals, perhaps you aren't cut out for being in this position as a commentator on a medium inching ever closer to fine art. Perhaps you should move into writing about politics, if you thing a large-breasted figure is so dangerous that it needs to be labeled "a harmful work of art." I think the art and artists who want to do interesting, personal work and not just cookie-cutter, committee-approved shit would thank you for exiting the field you are so clearly not committed to the future of. For this medium to grow artistically, it will require advocates of artists, not judgemental folks offended so easily, and so eager to throw labels on artists.

Pretty much my sentiment.

Even though it may have been designed to tickle male fantasy, the character's existence is relegated a pair of breasts and their movement by Mr. Schreier.

Add to that her fantastically outlandish and fictitious character is playable and not an object to be won as a prize for finishing the game.

 

[jschreier]

I think there is a difference between saying that someone is a bad game designer that made a bad game, and saying that someone is a bad person disrespectful to woman. The latter ceases to be game criticism and becomes something else entirely.

The fact that you (and others) think I said anything even close to either of those things says to me that you're not actually reading anything I've written.