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[Knux-Future]

I find it interesting how you cherry pick who's viewpoint you want to find interesting and putting words in Jason's mouth.

As has been the case with the majority of this thread. It has been a crazy thread. I can't believe there are people on here who can't seem to think beyond what images can depict and how they can alter perception of individuals, something you don't have to be aware of. But hey, a lot of guys enjoy it and fully embrace it, to the point of not giving a fuck what others think or even feel offended that it has become a heated topic as of late.



You might as well shut neogaf down while we're at it. Have you seen some of the complain threads that have existed in places such as neogaf?

The way women are depicted in video games is absolutely important if you're invested in the hobby, live in first world countries and wish to progress the industry where games can become more diverse and inclusive.

This is fine and all.

But his only issue is the fact that she has big breasts.

That is it.

That is where everything falls apart. There is an artistic reason for it.

Art obviously isn't free of criticism but calling something sexist or whatever is beyond criticism at that point..especially since the mere act of creating a big breasted character is not sexist or anything harmful. It's when you make that character useless, timid and generally only there to be saved and shit.

Yeah It is important to change the depiction but the issue with that depiction goes far beyond just big breasts.

That's what is not being touched on here

 

[Chie Satonaka]

I already knew the headline, and I knew what the article said, but it's really funny seeing this screenshot when every time an "lol kotaku" thread is written, he comes in here to defend his website AND suggest reading some of his work.

This whole thing is just a joke.

 

[Persona86]

I look forward to your thread on this topic.

I guess it would be an interesting topic, but really in the end it would just cause a headache, and I would really be a hypocrite because I've played these games too.

Also I get depressed just watching the news for 5 mins. I'd rather not make a topic where I have to focus on such negativity that makes me depressed.

Seriously I hate thinking how helpless I am with all the negativity in the world. All this shit happening, nothing I can do to stop it. It's why I try to avoid any news, otherwise I would go crazy from all the negativity.

Spoiler

On the topic of gaming, I think that's why I love Kazuma from the Yakuza games, no matter how much shit happens in the world, he always makes time to help people

Anyway I think in the end, games are games. People should focus on ending wars and helping people in the real world instead IMO.

 

[jschreier]

I hate to do this, because it's my favorite game series of all time, but...




I think your heart is in the right place, Jason, and I love most of your articles (especially the suikoden ones, which are certainly written from a place of love) but going after a struggling, stalwart japanese indie dev, and then doubling down on it when it becomes a thing, is not a great way to lift up marginalized voices in society above the roar of the oppressive mainstream culture.

You risk doing exactly the opposite -- I'm not sure you realize how much power the american/western press has in affecting the financial health of small japanese developers, but it seems pretty clear from looking at the last console generation and the falloff of unique japanese voices in gaming culture that all the harsh reviews and armchair design critiques have taken their toll. To me and probably some other commenters, the press is the voice of the mainstream, shouting down (at times like these) artistic styles and design ideas which are very unlike the current "best practices" of gaming culture, fresh voices we desperately need. And yes, a sort of comic book game of thrones type of thing, where classic western fantasy tropes are taken to the point of the grotesque/surreal, also counts as a unique voice, even if it also includes boobies.

You can't fight against mainstream oppression by fixating on a few fringe voices. And if the day ever comes, tearing down a new Suikoden for Jeane's ridiculous costumes would be missing everything that makes Suikoden so special.

Someone brought up Jeane in a different thread. This is an interesting point, because it gets at why I'm talking about all of this. I love the Suikoden series. I love almost everything about it - well, maybe not Suikoden IV - but I still roll my eyes when I see Jeane's character design, particularly in V. I think it's tasteless, and I think it appeals to a crowd that is already appealed to by a very large chunk of the video game industry.

I love JRPGs, and I want to feel like both men and women can play them without feeling ostracized or excluded or grossed out because of sexual objectification. I don't think the way to get more unique Japanese voices in gaming culture is for those Japanese developers to make games that pander to the teenage male crowd. I think characters like Jeane (and the sorceress) stand out to many fans as blemishes on games that are otherwise appealing in many ways.

Does that mean I'd get on the phone with Konami and tell them to get Jeane out of their games now? No. But I sure would love it if we had less Jeanes and more, say, Nanamis.

 

[Lime]

Good reply by Kamita. I especially love this part:

I am not sure if I can implement the critiques from him and others around the internet into my future artistic creations, but I will definitely keep in mind that these opinions are out there and affect people on a personal level.

 

[Corto]

Jesus. What a nasty post. And this idea that I want to "stifle free expression" is just blowing my mind. I really want to know why so many people think that it's impossible for me to criticize a piece of art - or call it harmful to video game culture - without wanting to censor it.

Let me make this clear: I do not want to censor anything. Calling something "harmful" does not equate to saying "This should not be allowed to exist." I would love it if Dragon's Crown didn't have such tasteless designs. That doesn't mean I'm going to tell George Kamitani how to make the game he wants to make.

This week, someone made a video game to make fun of the Boston bombing. I think most of us would agree that something like that is in poor taste. I'd even say it's harmful to video game culture. That doesn't mean I'd want it censored, or banned, or removed from the Internet.

As for the direct comparisons between photography and gaming, well, if your industry had the same sort of issues with sexism and exclusion that the video game industry does, then that might be more apt. But as I've said before and I'll say again, this is part of a bigger problem.

You saying that this design is bad and tasteless is fair and your prerogative, no one can take you that, and I would be front line with you defending that right. You saying it's harmful to the industry and it's a symptom of women mistreatment and representation in the industry has a a potential chilling effect (though Kamitani already stated it won't have) and that I can't defend and I don't agree with.

 

[Metrotab]

Oh please, as if this kind of article needed indepth analysis researched for a long ass time. I bet most guys would still be offended and have some negative things to say to him. As if the subject itself is not clear enough, where only one artwork should explain everything in the first place.

Could you explain 'everything'? What is it about this game that you find problematic?

 

[Metroidvania]

I find it interesting how you cherry pick who's viewpoint you want to find interesting and putting words in Jason's mouth.

Please don't act like this hasn't been happening on both 'sides'.

As has been the case with the majority of this thread. It has been a crazy thread. I can't believe there are people on here who can't seem to think beyond what images can depict and how they can alter perception of individuals, something you don't have to be aware of. But hey, a lot of guys enjoy it and fully embrace it, to the point of not giving a fuck what others think or even feel offended that it has become a heated topic as of late.

Of course some people are going to be offended. But people being offended by something's existence doesn't inherently mean that something is sexist.

The way women are depicted in video games is absolutely important if you're invested in the hobby, live in first world countries and wish to progress the industry where games can become more diverse and inclusive.

Absolutely agree. But having one out of three female characters with large breasts, yet isn't the limiting expression of her character (the same way that Peach's helplessness in the Mario games often is portrayed) strikes me as an odd point to push as much as has been done here.

I kinda feel like I have to stand up for him on this point. You can absolutely dislike something personally and still think that the creator has a write to create it.

The problem is that Jason's articles did not accurately convey that point. But since then he has come here and clarified that it is in fact his stance, so maybe we chalk that one up to miss-communication. And not insist that he doesn't want the game to exist when he is clearly saying that he believes it has the right to despite his misgivings.

He has enough actual opinions you can criticize him for. No need to bring in opinions that he doesn't actually harbor.

I fully agree with his right to have an opinion, no matter how I feel about it. It's when he links his opinion on the Sorceress to the issue of perpetuating sexism in the industry and the associated emotional investment that such a heated topic entails that I have an issue.

Oh please, as if this kind of article needed indepth analysis researched for a long ass time. I bet most guys would still be offended and have some negative things to say to him. As if the subject itself is not clear enough, where only one artwork should explain everything in the first place.

But now you're dictating on how you 'bet' people will feel, which is totally subjective and non-quantifiable based solely on your own experiences. You can't tell people that you know how they'll feel.

 

[jschreier]

Folks, "game developers should really let 14-year-olds stop designing their characters" was a snarky headline that I regret posting. I think I've made that pretty clear.

 

[Giolon]

You saying that this design is bad and tasteless is fair and your prerogative, no one can take you that, and I would be front line with you defending that right. You saying it's harmful to the industry and it's a symptom of women mistreatment and representation in the industry has a a potential chilling effect (though Kamitani already stated it won't have) and that I can't defend and I don't agree with.

^---This is what I'm trying to get at. Though I didn't get the same takeaway from Kamitani.

 

[encephalon]

Nvm.

 

[joetachi]

Folks, "game developers should really let 14-year-olds stop designing their characters" was a snarky headline that I regret posting. I think I've made that pretty clear.

snarky headline you should read the article its still terrble.

 

[eternalb]

Folks, "game developers should really let 14-year-olds stop designing their characters" was a snarky headline that I regret posting. I think I've made that pretty clear.

It's not just the 14 year-old part that you apologized for; it's the "stop" part.

 

[TheBaronOfNA]

Good reply by Kamita. I especially love this part:

To bad, he shouldn't, at least about the root of this case. In any case, pretty awesome professionalism from him.

 

[Knux-Future]

There is no game out there that won't ostracize someone. So that dream is foolish. Especially JRPGs....

Nothing appeals to everyone. NOTHING. Nor should it. There are plenty of games that appeal to various groups and by stating "i wish there would be less of this or that", one of those groups will be fucked over.

and as for appealing to a large group? Uh...this game probably won't sell anymore or any less due to breasts... So what large group is this appealing too? I'm pretty sure most people who buy this game are buying it because of the gameplay, developer and art an not because hurr hurrr she has big boobies.

it's that leap of logic that has people disagreeing with you.

 

[Metrotab]

Kami's response is perfect. He knows the issues exist out there. But he also knows he might not be able to organically change his artistry to consider those issues, and won't force it.

I think that's the best position to hold.

 

[Corto]

Folks, "game developers should really let 14-year-olds stop designing their characters" was a snarky headline that I regret posting. I think I've made that pretty clear.

How did Totilo accepted to publish that in the first place, or you have freedom to publish whatever you want without a preview from him?

 

[Delusibeta]

Folks, "game developers should really let 14-year-olds stop designing their characters" was a snarky headline that I regret posting. I think I've made that pretty clear.

Tough, it's going to be the supplement to "lol Kotaku" for at least the next couple of weeks.

 

[Deleted member 47027]

I think we've hit the point where we all need to just walk away with what we've all learned.

 

[kaching]

Folks, "game developers should really let 14-year-olds stop designing their characters" was a snarky headline that I regret posting. I think I've made that pretty clear.

Can't unring that bell when you were trying to criticize someone else for reinforcing "harmful" stereotypes by reinforcing a harmful stereotype of your own.

 

[Jathaine]

There is no game out there that won't ostracize someone. So that dream is foolish. Especially JRPGs....

Nothing appeals to everyone. NOTHING. Nor should it. There are plenty of games that appeal to various groups and by stating "i wish there would be less of this or that", one of those groups will be fucked over.

and as for appealing to a large group? Uh...this game probably won't sell anymore or any less due to breasts... So what large group is this appealing too? I'm pretty sure most people who buy this game are buying it because of the gameplay, developer and art an not because hurr hurrr she has big boobies.

it's that leap of logic that has people disagreeing with you.

Well, it actually probably will sell more due to large breasts because I bet its got much more of a following than it ever would have thanks, in part, due to Jason's actions.
Maybe that was the plan all along. Jason's a marketing genius and Atlus/Vanillaware should be paying this man.

 

[Knux-Future]

I think we've hit the point where we all need to just walk away with what we've all learned.

No body has learned shit.

But walking away is pretty great right about now.

 

[May16]

Wasn't Kotaku a banned site back in the day?

What exactly changed that? I'm confused.

 

[wiggleb0t]

I already knew the headline, and I knew what the article said, but it's really funny seeing this screenshot when every time an "lol kotaku" thread is written, he comes in here to defend his website AND suggest reading some of his work.

This whole thing is just a joke.

Since it's technically a blog according to Kotaku is it even a job to blog?
WTF is wrong with gaming when an artist forcibly has Jason Schreirer for character design advice?

 

[adixon]

Come on guys, this is like attacking some sundance indie film for doing a goofy version of action movie cliches while hollywood is still actively making action movies which reinforce those cultural values a hundred times more directly and insidiously, and with none of the creativity. This is cultural criticism at its most unfocused, completely ignoring the actual power relationships in the artistic voices being discussed (or nonchalantly devalued).


*edit* just saw that you did respond! yay! Post edited*

 

[Deleted member 47027]

What I mean is I think we've all communicated our points to Jason and there's no headway to be made, so we should all walk away. That's what I meant to say. I think all sides are a little more enlightened on every end.

 

[TheBaronOfNA]

Come on guys, this is like attacking some sundance indie film for doing a goofy version of action movie cliches while hollywood is still actively making action movies which reinforce those cultural values a hundred times more directly and insidiously, and with none of the creativity. This is cultural criticism at its most unfocused, completely ignoring the actual power relationships in the voices being discussed (or nonchalantly devalued).

Jason, I'm sad that I've just returned to the thread (after getting some work done, thank god) and as far as I can tell, you didn't respond to my parallel to Jeane in Suikoden at all. May ask whether this is because

a.) The thread was moving too fast and you missed it.
b.) You didn't think it warranted a response because it misses the point for you in some way?
c.) ?

Thanks for reading.

He did.

 

[not psycho]

and short of censorship, it's fine for others to dislike those things or find them too problematic to like.

The Penny Arcade response has been posted multiple times, and I agree with their view on the censorship aspect:

It’s very weird to pull up a story about a game with frankly visionary art and hear why it shouldn’t exist, or to hear what I supposedly fantasize about, or what kind of power I supposedly revere, and any attempt to defend oneself from these psychotic projections or to assert that creators may create is evidence of a dark seed sprouting in the heart. It’s an incredible state of affairs. They’re not censors, though - oh, no no. You’ll understand it eventually; what you need to do is censor yourself.

It is disingenuous to smear an artist and a game using sexual harassment, workplace discrimination, questioning of gaming cred, all kinds of mistreatment, say "developers need to stop letting 14 year old boys design their characters" and then say "oh, but I just want you to think about it, not to censor it". That is ridiculously dishonest.

Dishonest discussion is not always helpful, and that is what the articles have been.

We have yet to hear why this game is contributing to all the things used to attack it.

Is it because the game goes along with practices of "standardized" sexualization of women? Well, no. Vanillaware actually uses a huge variety of character designs for women, and the sorceress stands out because she is NOT standard. If anything, she might make people uncomfortable because she is different.

Is it because the game lacks strong, playable female characters? Well, no again. Both the game and Vanillaware's past games tend to have a variety of strong, playable female characters.

Is it because the game appears to be using sex appeal in a forced or cynical way? I don't think so. When viewed in context with all of Kamitani's artwork, it becomes clear that his art style is ranked the most important in the design. Mass sex appeal would actually be helped by less exaggeration. Ironically, the game would likely not have been attacked had it conformed to the most typical sex appeal style.


Why is a character who owns her sexuality with extreme confidence, from an artist who uses such variety, the one being attacked? And attacked, no less, with derogatory terms for women and people equating a low cut dress with full nudity (thus sounding a hell of a lot more like harassers than those who consider her a powerful character).


Doesn't it seem obvious that the game was not attacked because it is part of a problem, but rather because it uses a very exaggerated design that many simply dislike?

 

[AdventureRacing]

Jesus. What a nasty post. And this idea that I want to "stifle free expression" is just blowing my mind. I really want to know why so many people think that it's impossible for me to criticize a piece of art - or call it harmful to video game culture - without wanting to censor it.

No you're just putting pressure on developers to censor themselves by shaming them with articles calling them 14 year olds or sexist.

I would love it if Dragon's Crown didn't have such tasteless designs.

Here lies one of the main problems. What makes the design tasteless? This isn't just an automatic fact. The fact that a female is portrayed in a sexual manner doesn't automatically make it tasteless.

This week, someone made a video game to make fun of the Boston bombing. I think most of us would agree that something like that is in poor taste. I'd even say it's harmful to video game culture. That doesn't mean I'd want it censored, or banned, or removed from the Internet.

It comes down to why we think it's in poor taste. I'm sure most people in here would agree with you on this but they could always articulate why.

You're a journalist you can go beyond just saying 'it's a tasteless design' and actually explain WHY.

 

[TentPole]

Come on guys, this is like attacking some sundance indie film for doing a goofy version of action movie cliches while hollywood is still actively making action movies which reinforce those cultural values a hundred times more directly and insidiously, and with none of the creativity. This is cultural criticism at its most unfocused, completely ignoring the actual power relationships in the artistic voices being discussed (or nonchalantly devalued).

Jason, I'm sad that I've just returned to the thread (after getting some work done, thank god) and as far as I can tell, you didn't respond to my parallel to Jeane in Suikoden at all. May ask whether this is because

a.) The thread was moving too fast and you missed it.
b.) You didn't think it warranted a response because it misses the point for you in some way?
c.) ?

Thanks for reading.

You may want to check again but I thought he did address it.

Edit: Beaten to it. So I will just take this as a chance to say that I really like that Penny Arcade quote.

 

[ixix]

For the record y'all, Schreier's original statement on the subject of censorship was that he didn't want Kamitani to censor himself.

The statements "I do not want to censor anything" and "I don't want [George Kamitani] to censor himself" are not equivalent to one another, though they appear so at first glance. The former is an expression of opposition to de jure censorship, while the latter is an expression of opposition to de facto censorship.

 

[QisTopTier]

Folks, "game developers should really let 14-year-olds stop designing their characters" was a snarky headline that I regret posting. I think I've made that pretty clear.

Do you still stand by your statement that the Sorc is a lolicon fantasy?

 

[Odrion]

Folks, "game developers should really let 14-year-olds stop designing their characters" was a snarky headline that I regret posting. I think I've made that pretty clear.

Well that's good. It's just a headline after all. Because the article it links to is definitely not just a rephrasing of the headline.

This is the newest trailer for Dragon's Crown, the Vanillaware-developed game that will be out this year for PS3 and Vita. It features the sorceress, one character from the game. As you can see, the sorceress was designed by a 14-year-old boy. Perhaps game development studios should stop hiring teenagers? At least they're cheap, I guess.

Oh wait.

 

[Kurdel]

I would have agreed if the article was about something like DOA paradise or Lolipop Chainsaw, but the PA post nails it on th head.

I just love exagerrated art style for this game.

 

[jschreier]

You saying that this design is bad and tasteless is fair and your prerogative, no one can take you that, and I would be front line with you defending that right. You saying it's harmful to the industry and it's a symptom of women mistreatment and representation in the industry has a a potential chilling effect (though Kamitani already stated it won't have) and that I can't defend and I don't agree with.

Look, I'm not saying that I think Kamitani is some sort of nasty sexist who drew this art for the sake of harming women. But I think these things add up, and I think the art is harmful when scrutinized within a culture where women are regularly excluded and mistreated, where video game publishers don't think games with female protagonists can sell, and where people don't even bat an eye at games like Dead or Alive.

 

[Kai Dracon]

The thing is, if you actually "go there" and advocate something is harmful you are taking on some responsibilities. You are making a claim there's an objective danger to a person or people. You are probably saying it's important enough to be recognized as a danger to human well-being. I don't think it's honest to invoke "this is harmful, this hurts people" to give your opinion more weight and then retreat behind subjectivity. "But I'm not saying it should go away or people shouldn't be allowed to do it."

If you say something is harmful you're opening a conversation on what we as a group should do about it. It seems to imply action needs to be taken otherwise there's little point in saying something is harmful if its existence matters so little it's not worth changing attitudes, behaviors, or conventions to account for.

When people generally agreed that smoking was harmful, they didn't say that meant all smoking should be banned (most didn't, anyway). They did however agree some actions should be taken to prevent it from harming people vulnerable to it such as in public places, especially where children were present.

In gaming, to move closer to topic here, when people say "COD is harmful to the industry" (which to be fair is often shorthand for AAA games chasing COD-money are harmful) they are not just saying they dislike COD. Many who say COD is harmful advocate a larger variety of games being made, less CODlike games being created out of exploitation, and so forth.

I think it's very tempting to lie to one's self and hide behind advocacy of crypto-censorship - trying to get people to self-censor so that you don't have to "get your hands dirty" and look like someone who is telling others what they can and can't do. It's funny the topic is a piece of art desire here. Being around art communities online, I have seen crypto-censorship plenty of times, for years. It's common. "That kind of art is awful and it shouldn't exist. I hate to think anyone likes it. I won't tell the artist not to make it of course, but if they knew better, they'd make more acceptable or worthwhile kinds of art. Nobody is forcing them to continue putting out this trash." At a certain point it becomes like listening to a religious person say "I don't judge, but God will surely punish those horrible people for their sins". Of course you're judging! Shifting your judgement to one side with rhetorical sleight of hand doesn't fool anyone.

 

[7Th]

2cute

 

[APF]

I guess it would be an interesting topic, but really in the end it would just cause a headache, and I would really be a hypocrite because I've played these games too.

I honestly think it's a totally valid concern that people should be discussing more, especially here. And there have been cases where the topic does crop up, for example wrt games set during the Vietnam war, or for the first games set in Iraq and Afghanistan following the beginning of each of those conflicts, not to mention angry rants from North Korea and Venezuela when American companies make games involving them. Personally I hate that the most common method of interacting with game worlds is through absolutely monstrous amounts of killing, and I don't think I'm alone with that kind of fatigue. Recall the heat Uncharted got for Drake basically being a mass murderer, and the commentary on Bioshock Infinite along similar lines ("Infinite should not have been a shooter").

Seriously I hate thinking how helpless I am with all the negativity in the world. All this shit happening, nothing I can do to stop it. It's why I try to avoid any news, otherwise I would go crazy from all the negativity.

Spoiler

On the topic of gaming, I think that's why I love Kazuma from the Yakuza games, no matter how much shit happens in the world, he always makes time to help people

Anyway I think in the end, games are games. People should focus on ending wars and helping people in the real world instead IMO.

I think this is a great post, thanks for sharing it. There's definitely good in the world and we should definitely be focusing more on increasing the good and decreasing the negative.

 

[eternalb]

Look, I'm not saying that I think Kamitani is some sort of nasty sexist who drew this art for the sake of harming women. But I think these things add up, and I think the art is harmful when scrutinized within a culture where women are regularly excluded and mistreated, where video game publishers don't think games with female protagonists can sell, and where people don't even bat an eye at games like Dead or Alive.

So why did you chose this exact moment and this small developer in which to grind your ax? According to you, there should be no lack of examples--why single out just one when having a few more would have strengthened your argument?

 

[joetachi]

2cute

get outa here with that shit you pedofile.

 

[TheBaronOfNA]

Look, I'm not saying that I think Kamitani is some sort of nasty sexist who drew this art for the sake of harming women. But I think these things add up, and I think the art is harmful when scrutinized within a culture where women are regularly excluded and mistreated, where video game publishers don't think games with female protagonists can sell, and where people don't even bat an eye at games like Dead or Alive.

Games like Neptunia are more in line with that kind of pandering than this one, thought.

 

[QisTopTier]

2cute

Be free my little friend!

Wait why did you come back?

I SAID BE FREE GO HOME!

^that right there plays in my head when I see that gif

 

[Tellaerin]

I can't believe there are people on here who can't seem to think beyond what images can depict and how they can alter perception of individuals, something you don't have to be aware of. But hey, a lot of guys enjoy it and fully embrace it, to the point of not giving a fuck what others think or even feel offended that it has become a heated topic as of late.

And I can't believe how many people are thoroughly convinced certain depictions of the female form are "harmful" or "toxic" and are subconsciously twisting mens' perception of women in the real world. In this case, you can count me in that group who unabashedly enjoys the things they like and don't give a damn what others think. If I honestly believed that there was a strong causal link between sexualized depictions of female characters in videogames and misogyny and sexism in the real world, it might be a different story, but I don't. So it becomes an issue for me when people begin using that contention as grounds to argue that certain elements need to be changed or removed from all games.

 

[GuessMyUserName]

As you can see, the sorceress was designed by a 14-year-old boy. Perhaps game development studios should stop hiring teenagers? At least they're cheap, I guess.

Holy crap, this is easily the most offensive thing in this topic.

A 14-year-old boy? Cheap? Insulting this artist as Schreier did is absolutely unacceptable behaviour, I'm disgusted.

 

[Metrotab]

Look, I'm not saying that I think Kamitani is some sort of nasty sexist who drew this art for the sake of harming women. But I think these things add up, and I think the art is harmful when scrutinized within a culture where women are regularly excluded and mistreated, where video game publishers don't think games with female protagonists can sell, and where people don't even bat an eye at games like Dead or Alive.

But why didn't you properly contextualize the character design in light of the artistic vision behind the game? Isn't that your job as a journalist? To inform and provide encadrement?

Or was it much easier to write a 'snarky' little blurb and call it a day?

 

[Knux-Future]

A big breasted witch lady ins't going to effect on whether or not games with female protags sell.


It doesn't help that most of those games were garbage.

There are actual reasons for the issues that are a problem.....this design is just not one of them.

 

[RpgN]

No, actually it isn't at all.
If people don't like it, they should start making games that include the things they want to see... NOT stifle the creation of games they don't necessarily agree with.

Anything less is necessarily making games less diverse in the first place.

Yes it is, sorry you don't think it's important enough for you.

And enough with the strawman arguments already. It's always funny when creative freedom is very important when it's something you like, yet you can complain about all kinds of things that can just as easily stifle creation of games. And you know what I'm talking about, I don't have to name examples.

Knux-Future]This is fine and all.

But his only issue is the fact that she has big breasts.

That is it.

That is where everything falls apart. There is an artistic reason for it.

Art obviously isn't free of criticism but calling something sexist or whatever is beyond criticism at that point..especially since the mere act of creating a big breasted character is not sexist or anything harmful. It's when you make that character useless, timid and generally only there to be saved and shit.

Yeah It is important to change the depiction but the issue with that depiction goes far beyond just big breasts.

That's what is not being touched on here

It's not only for the fact she has big breats. There is far more to it than that. Her dress, her jiggle physics, her promotional material where she's holding a skeleton around her breasts and putting her staff around her ass (suggesting a pose where guys can imagine they're fucking her) etc. Not only that, the amazon girl shows more skin, has some crazy thights and has her ass and breasts showing through her thong and that's supposed to be her armour. There is an elf that looks much better, but that doesn't take away what the game is being associated with.

It is harmful and it is not as objective as you're it making out to be. You sound like a lost cause and way out of what's perceived ''sexist'' and ''harmful'' if you seriously believe what you're saying.

Many people here understand what the perceived issue is.

But it just isn't there. This is not the game people should look at for that issue.

I think the game is a fine example of that wether the artist intended to exaggerate the style for all the characters or not. Why is it always 100% assumed and accepted that women have to look sexy, dressed as little as possible and have giant boobs?

Could you explain 'everything'? What is it about this game that you find problematic?

Do I really need to spell everything out?

Please don't act like this hasn't been happening on both 'sides'.

I'm not denying that though you can surely see who is trying harder and going further with this?

 

[AdventureRacing]

Look, I'm not saying that I think Kamitani is some sort of nasty sexist who drew this art for the sake of harming women. But I think these things add up, and I think the art is harmful when scrutinized within a culture where women are regularly excluded and mistreated, where video game publishers don't think games with female protagonists can sell, and where people don't even bat an eye at games like Dead or Alive.

And here you are attacking a game where none of those things apply and ignoring the context in which the character is found. This game does have females as the lead characters and they are just as capable as their male counterparts. It also features a variety of female designs including one with very small breasts and one that is fully clothed.

You have chose a poor example for your argument and instead of backing down you continue to dig deeper into an entrenched position.

Folks, "game developers should really let 14-year-olds stop designing their characters" was a snarky headline that I regret posting. I think I've made that pretty clear.

It's not like the article itself contains anymore thought. Perhaps next time if you want to discuss a big issue like this and be taken seriously you should put a little more thought and research into your article. You come onto the forums acting like you want to crusade for womens rights in the gaming industry and yet your attempt to do this is a poorly thought out and offensive article that attacks one random example which doesn't even typify what you're arguing against.

 

[JordanN]

Look, I'm not saying that I think Kamitani is some sort of nasty sexist who drew this art for the sake of harming women. But I think these things add up,

Does it?

My previous post attempted to separate Sorceress from the rest of the problems in the game industry.

 

[Lime]

To bad, he shouldn't, at least about the root of this case. In any case, pretty awesome professionalism from him.

So developers shouldn't listen to players about game issues? Naughty Dog shouldn't listen to GAF's problems with the aiming controls in Uncharted 3? Developers shouldn't care about QA's reports of bugs? Writers shouldn't listen to editors?

I really can't understand why people have such a problem with this particular type of criticism, yet 90 % of all threads on GAF is about people criticizing a specific game and its failings.