badcrumble
Member
Oh hey, the fanfiction showed up right on time.
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George Zimmerman ARRESTED for Domestic Incident [Up:Girlfriend Wants Charges Dropped]
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Oh hey, the fanfiction showed up right on time.
And there were conflicting witness accounts about who was on top. It was likely that both were on top at one point and it was a rolling scuffle.
There was also medical testimony given that the injuries incurred by Zimmerman were not in line with someone who was being "beaten to death" as Zimmerman claimed.
This might not have changed the outcome of the trial, but I do agree with Empty Vessel that that was plenty of room to argue that Zimmerman had been the initial aggressor, and that he had not exhausted all viable means to escape before resorting to deadly force.
There was also evidence that suggested Zimmerman's gun wasn't holstered before the shot was taken, which alone would have made him the aggressor even if he hadn't so much as touched Trayvon.
Which was a story that George told, for which there was not sufficient evidence. The minor lacerations on the back of his head are not consistent with being slammed into concrete. There *was* however evidence that he provoked the incident in the form of the 911 recording, and leaving out the fact that instigation matters in the jury instructions was a grievous mistake. Zimmerman's girlfriend is just lucky she didn't get a taste of what Trayvon got. If you really think you can just go around starting fights and shooting your way out of it with no evidence to back up your self-defense claim, I invite you to try it and enjoy spending the rest of your life in jail -- presuming the judge doesn't fuck up the jury instructions. "I was scared" will not cut it, nor should it.
JCreasy
Member
THIS
Deified Data
Banned
Is anyone who defended him during the Martin trial turning on him now? With all the hero worship he's received I thought their devotion was unconditional.
ChainedMaster
Banned
You guys are too witty 4me.
I don't think there was conflicting witness accounts. There was only one eye witness who saw the actual fight, and only one was on top. He claimed that the one on the bottom was wearing red, or described the person on top, I don't remember. But as I said before, there definitely is room to argue Zimmerman was the agressor, but self-defense isn't an affirmative defense in Florida. Meaning the prosecution had to prove it was no reasonable for Zimmerman to fear for serious injury.
But I could be wrong, maybe it is. So if someone could show that it is an affirmative defense, I'll gladly stand corrected.
Metaphoreus
This is semantics, and nothing more
In Florida, as in every other state not named Ohio, self-defense must be disproven by the prosecution, rather than proven by the defense. Ohio requires the defendant to prove self-defense by a preponderance of the evidence.
empty vessel
Member
It's worth pointing out that that is a relatively modern phenomenon and opposite to common law.
Angelus Errare
Banned
After successfully slaying Martin Tray'von the young warrior of neghrost descent, Zimmerman had decided to retreat away from the spotlight as America's hero. He had defeated one of the most powerful savages the world had ever known and was given recognition for his successful hunt. This came as a surprise to Zimmerman as for thousands of years slayers like him and been persecuted, misunderstood and at times hunted.
"The influence of the Negrhosts over our people is waning George" said his father Sir Georgius Zimmerman Sr.
He was an older gentleman, his white hair growing in place where his once beautiful black hair once resided. His well defined body had been replaced with a modest belly full from foods and wines the country over. His eyes were brown and inviting to his family, but was the very essence of death to Negrhosts everywhere. Many negrhosts remember him well, his battle furor was matched by very few and he made a name for himself as "The Once in a Lifetime Genius Slayer." It was a tall order for young George to live up to, but on this day he made his father proud.
But George felt empty, while he vanquished the great evil that loomed over the land known as Or's Lando. He lost his wife in the process, being a slayer put a damper on his relationship with her as he became more focused on his goals of defeathing the mighty Trayvon and eventually beheading the Negrhosts' leader Barakauis O'bam.
George's father sensed his son's loneliness and put his arm around his son's shoulder and wishered into his ear "Do not freight over her my young son; your deeds have not gone unnoticed. There is a beautiful woman who would like to thank the hero."
George was hesitant, his heart belonged to another but the slayer in him longed for the warmth of female flesh around his own. George told his father he would like to meet her. No sooner did he state this did his father yell out to his wife to bring the girl to him.
Standing in front of George was the most beautiful girl he had ever seen. Her ivory skin was flawless and simply radiated. Her green eyes met George's eyes, and tears ran down her face. George had seen many green eyes before but her eyes were by far the most beautiful. She wore a beautiful satin night dress, it contoured to her every curve and figure. She was by far the most fit woman George had ever seen. Her lips were pout and flushed with blood, Making it that much harder for George to keep his thoughts pure.
"She's wanted to be a slayer at one point in her life George" his father spoke.
She said nothing as George's father continued to speak, her gaze never leaving George's own.
"She will make a great wife for you, she understands the life a slayer leads and is more than capable to be there for you at your every beckon and call." Sir Zimmerman continued.
George seemingly ignoring his father spoke to the young woman; "what is your name?"
Her expression did not change and she parted her lips and let out one word, "Samantha."
Instantly George broke down crying as he walked over to her, he knelt before her and place his face still red and flush with tears into her bosom. She gently stroked his head and hummed to soothe the slayer. George's father intervened and helped his son up from his fallen state. "Samantha, give us a minute dear and we'll meet you in the commons okay?" Sir Zimmerman pointed to the large room just past Samantha, she smiled and watched as Sir Zimmerman took George into the kitchen to get cleaned up.
After they were out of sight, Samantha let out a small smirk as she tapped her watch and began speaking into it. "Mr. O'bam...I'm in, I repeat I am in. I now have the Zimmerman's trust."
"Excellent, let nothing stop you. Do right and kill everything." responded a voice. There was no emotion no warmth. The voice was gravely and cold capable of rendering most slayers unconscious, yet there was something soothing and hypnotic about; it never allowed one to ever be comfortable. Though she was his apprentice, even Samantha could not fully resist the power of his voice and she caught herself lingering on the line intoxicated by the its' sound. "I will do as you command my lord" she responded and hung up communications.
As soon as O'bam hung up, a smile creeped over his face. He was in his his personal chambers, 5 men in all black surrounded the inside of the chambers. These were his personal guards known to slayers as the Dread Lords, their powers were immense third only to O'bam and his apprentice Sam'atha. O'bam motioned them away with the flick of his wrist and in a puff of black mist they all vanished from his chambers. O'bam grabbed a picture frame and traced his ashen fingers around the rim of it.
"Soon my son, your death shall be avenged". He stated looking at the photo, it was a photograph of Tray'von...O'bam's son.
"The influence of the Negrhosts over our people is waning George" said his father Sir Georgius Zimmerman Sr.
He was an older gentleman, his white hair growing in place where his once beautiful black hair once resided. His well defined body had been replaced with a modest belly full from foods and wines the country over. His eyes were brown and inviting to his family, but was the very essence of death to Negrhosts everywhere. Many negrhosts remember him well, his battle furor was matched by very few and he made a name for himself as "The Once in a Lifetime Genius Slayer." It was a tall order for young George to live up to, but on this day he made his father proud.
But George felt empty, while he vanquished the great evil that loomed over the land known as Or's Lando. He lost his wife in the process, being a slayer put a damper on his relationship with her as he became more focused on his goals of defeathing the mighty Trayvon and eventually beheading the Negrhosts' leader Barakauis O'bam.
George's father sensed his son's loneliness and put his arm around his son's shoulder and wishered into his ear "Do not freight over her my young son; your deeds have not gone unnoticed. There is a beautiful woman who would like to thank the hero."
George was hesitant, his heart belonged to another but the slayer in him longed for the warmth of female flesh around his own. George told his father he would like to meet her. No sooner did he state this did his father yell out to his wife to bring the girl to him.
Standing in front of George was the most beautiful girl he had ever seen. Her ivory skin was flawless and simply radiated. Her green eyes met George's eyes, and tears ran down her face. George had seen many green eyes before but her eyes were by far the most beautiful. She wore a beautiful satin night dress, it contoured to her every curve and figure. She was by far the most fit woman George had ever seen. Her lips were pout and flushed with blood, Making it that much harder for George to keep his thoughts pure.
"She's wanted to be a slayer at one point in her life George" his father spoke.
She said nothing as George's father continued to speak, her gaze never leaving George's own.
"She will make a great wife for you, she understands the life a slayer leads and is more than capable to be there for you at your every beckon and call." Sir Zimmerman continued.
George seemingly ignoring his father spoke to the young woman; "what is your name?"
Her expression did not change and she parted her lips and let out one word, "Samantha."
Instantly George broke down crying as he walked over to her, he knelt before her and place his face still red and flush with tears into her bosom. She gently stroked his head and hummed to soothe the slayer. George's father intervened and helped his son up from his fallen state. "Samantha, give us a minute dear and we'll meet you in the commons okay?" Sir Zimmerman pointed to the large room just past Samantha, she smiled and watched as Sir Zimmerman took George into the kitchen to get cleaned up.
After they were out of sight, Samantha let out a small smirk as she tapped her watch and began speaking into it. "Mr. O'bam...I'm in, I repeat I am in. I now have the Zimmerman's trust."
"Excellent, let nothing stop you. Do right and kill everything." responded a voice. There was no emotion no warmth. The voice was gravely and cold capable of rendering most slayers unconscious, yet there was something soothing and hypnotic about; it never allowed one to ever be comfortable. Though she was his apprentice, even Samantha could not fully resist the power of his voice and she caught herself lingering on the line intoxicated by the its' sound. "I will do as you command my lord" she responded and hung up communications.
As soon as O'bam hung up, a smile creeped over his face. He was in his his personal chambers, 5 men in all black surrounded the inside of the chambers. These were his personal guards known to slayers as the Dread Lords, their powers were immense third only to O'bam and his apprentice Sam'atha. O'bam motioned them away with the flick of his wrist and in a puff of black mist they all vanished from his chambers. O'bam grabbed a picture frame and traced his ashen fingers around the rim of it.
"Soon my son, your death shall be avenged". He stated looking at the photo, it was a photograph of Tray'von...O'bam's son.
So you believe the Florida statute would disallow someone who had slapped another from defending themselves if the person they slapped pulled a gun? I don't know how that could be the case. Any provocation would seem to need to be met with proportional force, otherwise the balance is off.
Does provocation apply to speech?
Uh, I said duty to retreat and stand your ground. You (partially) quoted the statute concerning the use of deadly force in self defense in general. You are having trouble understanding.
Chie Satonaka
Member
That's just the follow-up to the duet rap fanfiction battle Chainedmaster initiated.
Saying "uh" and acting condescending will not make you look smart after claiming that the only thing that matters in a self-defense argument is what happened the moment the trigger was pulled when that is not true, particularly when one has helpfully linked to the relevant statute. You were wrong. I perfectly understand your shitty argument that you are offering to defend the "right" of a racist sociopath to commit murder.
I was talking specifically about stand your ground and duty to retreat. You're mixing up concepts and not making sense. The point you were making that I responded to was that if Zimmerman had a duty to retreat it would have applied when the non-emergency operator suggested he not pursue. This is incorrect and I explained that a duty to retreat applies when the incident occurs, not before. Now you're throwing in the aggressor clause here and clearly not understanding what you're saying.
General Patton
Banned
Oh god, KHarvey is settling in. Hope you've got some spare time Terrene.
Although I will pick you up on one thing. How can you whinge about lack of evidence related to what GZ said, then claim his injuries weren't consistent with having his head smashed into concrete? Considering the nature of the skull, it's pretty difficult to judge how forceful the impact was without viewing the incident. That's a pretty big assumption on your part, with little supporting evidence?
Although I will pick you up on one thing. How can you whinge about lack of evidence related to what GZ said, then claim his injuries weren't consistent with having his head smashed into concrete? Considering the nature of the skull, it's pretty difficult to judge how forceful the impact was without viewing the incident. That's a pretty big assumption on your part, with little supporting evidence?
Metaphoreus
This is semantics, and nothing more
I don't think you understand what KHarvey16 is saying at all. If you'll take a moment to reread the exchange so far, I think you, he or she, and we can all avoid what General Patton fears.
KHarvey16 is correct that, at the time that the non-emergency police dispatcher told Zimmerman that the police "didn't need" Zimmerman to follow Martin, Zimmerman had no duty to retreat. From what would he have retreated? The statute you cited makes plain that the duty to retreat, when is arises, is the duty to retreat from the "imminent danger of death or great bodily harm." At the time that Zimmerman was speaking with the dispatcher, there simply was no such danger from which he could retreat. And just think of the absurd consequences if your understanding were correct: if Zimmerman were under the duty to retreat imposed by 776.041 at the time of the dispatcher's statement, then every other prerequisite giving rise to the right to use deadly force in self-defense must have already been met. Think about what that would mean. Pretend that Zimmerman hadn't followed Martin at all, but simply happened to be in the spot where Zimmerman (in the real course of events) was at the time of the dispatcher's statement (maybe our alternate-reality Zimmerman was out for a smoke). Under your understanding of the law, alternate-reality Zimmerman (who was obviously not an aggressor) would have the right to kill Martin at the moment of the dispatcher's statement--even though, for all we know, Martin was far down that alleyway about to enter his dad's house. Does that sound right to you?
empty vessel
Member
I agree with this, but that does not change my opinion that the first exception to Florida's first aggressor law is phrased too leniently for the aggressor.
I would include threatening speech as potentially provoking violence, yes. And the law generally does. If somebody tells me "you're dead" under circumstances in which they appear to have the intent and means to imminently carry the threat out, they are provoking me to use force against them. And it is in society's interest not to reward people who provoke violence, whether through words, deeds, or in combination.
As with many things in law, this is going to be a totality-of-the-circumstances kind of thing. I am only saying that I think the better policy is to take a broader view of provocation (and a narrower view of exceptions to provocation) because it better serves society's strong interest in preventing violence from breaking out.
empty vessel
Member
It doesn't, actually. It says, "A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony."
The statute gives people the right to use violence if they are "attacked" without regard to the availability of reasonable means of escape. That right includes the right to use lethal force "if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony." But note that the right to "stand your ground" and "meet force with force" attaches without regard to whether that fear is present.
"Attacked" is not defined. There is evidence from which one could conclude that Martin was exercising his statutory right when he was killed by Zimmerman.
Also, stand your ground was given as a relevant instruction to the jury at Zimmerman's trial.
I can assure you that I do and on the contrary, you and KHarvey don't understand what I've been saying.
Well that was all quite irrelevant and boring to read, but thanks. Here's what you and KH haven't been understanding, and I'm really tired of repeating how this inversion of blame has taken place and worked due to racism and lies of omission, so excuse my crankiness (it has also been a long day):
Framing the issue with regard to the threat posed to Zimmerman that he was supposedly "retreating from" is buying snake oil; that is what the defense needed to do -- put Trayvon on trial. Zimmerman was the threat. Zimmerman started a fight. Zimmerman had a gun. That matters, a lot. In reality, it was Zimmerman who initiated the confrontation, and according to 776.041, that means he was not justified in his use of force. That the "unless" clause in 776.041 that pertains to people who, despite initiating a confrontation, are about to die and have decided to defend themselves, was solidified as the relevant decision point for jurors when the judge did the following three things in the jury instructions:
a) Omitted mentioning that being the initial aggressor made Zimmerman culpable. Search Justifiable Homicide in the instructions to get to the section. Now having read the text of 776.041, you KNOW that being an aggressor should be mentioned.
b) Instead, cited SYG when giving VERY LOW STANDARDS for Zimmerman's use of force being justified: namely, if Zimmerman was "not engaged in an unlawful activity and was attacked in any place where he had a right to be" -- then he had the right to "stand his ground."
c) Never once asked the jury to consider the fact that if Trayvon knew Zimmerman had a gun, that under 776.041, *HE HAD THE RIGHT TO KILL ZIMMERMAN* under the same "imminent threat" clause that set Zimmerman free, because at that moment Trayvon would have known that it was either him or Zimmerman.
You ask me what I think it would mean if "duty to retreat" had applied when the dispatcher told Zimmerman to stand down. Clearly you are missing the point; instigating the incident is the key here. Perhaps it was my fault for being unclear on this, but yes, it matters if you start the fight, as it should.
Here's a more troubling philosophical question for you: What does it mean that Florida has decided that in a case where two people were in a "they die or I die" situation, the first one who kills the other and claims they were scared wins, regardless of whether they instigated it? Because all the race issues aside, if all you need to do to legally kill someone is claim that you feared for you life, even if you are a psychopath who engages random people in desperate battles for their lives, then it's "first person who kills the other and makes it to the courtroom to talk about it wins."
It was a horrible miscarriage of justice to have the "imminent danger" exception override the "instigation" rule, and that judge ought to be ashamed of themselves, as should every motherfucker who stands up for the technical perversions of common sense that are necessary to exculpate George Zimmerman. I am troubled by what must either by great credulity or plain racism necessary for someone to want to subscribe to it.
An unbelievably low standard was set for George Zimmerman's use of violence -- "not engaged in an unlawful activity and was attacked in any
place where he had a right to be." The jury was told that was all they needed to care about for Zimmerman's use of force to be justified. You've read 776.041, and I have too -- and that is Not. Fucking. True.
Worse than all that, is that given such a low bar -- "George was scared" -- all the jury needed to do was relate to his fear. And that's when putting Trayvon on trial and characterizing him as a scary black thug came into play. As it turns out, you can get a mostly-white jury to fear a 17-year old unarmed black kid fairly easily, if you catalog all their mistakes and tell them some tale about being assaulted.
KH: I'm just ignoring you at this point. You're done. I'm tired of you pretending that I am not making sense. Of course I am. I've repeatedly linked to the articles and Florida statues that back me up. You've never even linked to anything once in any of your posts. I don't take your shit seriously because it keeps turning up shit when you look up the actual laws, and someone who buys into the trial inversion that the defense pulled off of making an unarmed teenager the threat to George Zimmerman has very little credibility with me to begin with. Reply if you want to, I don't care. This thread is worse for you being in it.
Metaphoreus
This is semantics, and nothing more
I'm not sure how your post responds to mine. Section 776.041 ("The statute [terrene] cited") says just what I said it does, section 776.013 notwithstanding.
First off, let me say that I believe it's worthwhile that we understand one another. If I don't understand what you're saying, please believe that I want to. I'd rather you and I clarify our positions and then disagree (or agree, even) rather than just be rude to one another with no attempt to see the other's point.
Happily.
Zimmerman was on trial. Proving that Zimmerman did not believe he was in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm, or that such a belief was not reasonable under the circumstances, was what the prosecution needed to do. The jury had to consider the conduct of both Zimmerman and Martin to determine whether Zimmerman's use of deadly force was justified. There's simply no way to avoid that.
I don't know who started the fight, but even assuming that Zimmerman provoked the use of force against himself, that doesn't automatically mean that he was not justified in his use of force. Had the jury been asked, and had the jury found that Zimmerman provoked the use of force, they would also have had to determine whether he reasonably believed he was in danger of imminent death or great bodily harm and, if so, whether he had exhausted every reasonable means of escaping that danger. If they had answered both of those questions in the affirmative (or, rather, if they had answered neither of those in the negative), then Zimmerman's use of force would have been justified despite his being the initial aggressor.
I don't disagree with this statement, but I do disagree that the only question that needs to be answered is who started the fight.
But that's not the law in Florida. Even ignoring the question of initial aggression, a defendant would not be justified if he was not, in fact, "scared" (i.e., if he did not believe he was in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm) or, if he was "scared," if his fear was not reasonable.
The judge didn't decide that the "imminent danger" exception overrides the "instigation" rule. The Florida legislature did, but only if, in addition to reasonably believing (blah blah blah), the defendant also had exhausted every reasonable means of escaping the danger. Of course, the judge didn't instruct the jurors on the aggressor statute, which, as I said, she probably should have. But that wouldn't have prevented the jurors from reaching the "imminent danger" exception.
No, it isn't true, but that's also not what the judge said. Here are the instructions under the "Justifiable Use of Deadly Force" section:
Now, I'll be honest, the instructions you linked to (which I assume are the actual instructions given) are terrible, all around. I don't see how any layperson could hope to comprehend them. However, it's not accurate to say that the judge instructed the jurors that all they had to do to find Zimmerman justified was to find that he was "not engaged in an unlawful activity and was attacked in any place where he had a right to be."
Thank you for this gift.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
It has to be pay cable, because there is no way it could work if you had to deal with basic's censorship.
.... this right here - this is some mighty good shit.
Metaphoreus
This is semantics, and nothing more
SuperAndroid17
Member
Thrown em both in jail and be done with it.
Stupid liar
Stupid liar
His penis must be huge and mighty.
smokeandmirrors
Banned
holy shit
is this what stockholm syndrome looks like? Maybe I don't get it but someone pointing a shotgun at me is definitely a deal breaker.
is this what stockholm syndrome looks like? Maybe I don't get it but someone pointing a shotgun at me is definitely a deal breaker.
Big Baybee
Member
Whatever
Sounds like Zimmermans' got that good D.
So she admits she lied?
IISANDERII
Member
Sounds like she has a shotgun pointed at her head.
Phire Phox
Banned
Well she said she lied about him pointing the gun at her.
smokeandmirrors
Banned
Meh. Knowing his track record, I doubt it, but it's easy for me to say as an outside observer so... *shrug*
evil solrac v3.0
Member
at this point I jsut want more Angelus fanfic.
Angelus Errare
Banned
Seeing as it was originally going to be an open and shut case with Trayvon...Florida totally is not one of those places.
Like the hat?
Banned
Shouldn't she be arrested for lying to police, then
I H8 Memes
Member
Why isnt she being charged for filing a false police report?
You can recant your story.
Angelus Errare
Banned
Read likes a Batman meets The Spectre monologue.
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