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[Moonstar]

Which is why I said continental Europe never really had the luxury of plucking refugee families from Syria (like Canada, and us in the UK), because there were already massive waves of migrants wondering across Europe's open borders that had to end up somewhere.

Oh Germany did that as well. They took in 30.000 people via these programs straight from Syria in addition to those coming on their own.

 

[funkypie]

German officials find a book of phrases that say; nice boobs, I want to have sex with you and I will kill you...

And still people don't believe they were recent arrivials

 

[dapperbandit]

It should, his game is being a populist, if they're out of the EU that's one less thing to complain about and it's not exactly like his domestic policies are a catalyst for progress, economic or social.

Of the responses to my post yours is the most interesting. I've been looking at Poland's approach as a sort of petri dish experiment for future eurosceptic states, hadn't considered that without the shadow of the EU's interference voters wouldn't have a threat to unite against.

There's really no way to defend this. If the press is against the ruling party, this is too bad for the ruling party, but nothing they should be able to change.

My gut and absolutely nothing I've read tells me this is the Polish government cleaning house. With the courts and the media, I think they want to get rid of EU influence even if it strays into tinfoil hat territory.

I don't necessarily want to wander further off topic in this thread however...

 

[Extra Sauce]

1000 is 5% of 20000? The reports of 1000 men, you know.

1000 men raped women?

 

[nynt9]

1000 men raped women?

No one claimed they did? the poster said "pure scum" and I'd say being complicit in an organized effort to rape, sexually assault and mug women is scum, yes.

Then again, I wasn't intending to play the semantics game like you, and you're clearly putting words in people's mouths. They asked a numbers question, I answered with it.

 

[michaelius]

Of the responses to my post yours is the most interesting. I've been looking at Poland's approach as a sort of petri dish experiment for future eurosceptic states, hadn't considered that without the shadow of the EU's interference voters wouldn't have a threat to unite against.

Euroscepticism in Poland is marginal - the only difference of opinion is between people who want to go for bigger integration (Tusk and his previous ruling party) and those who think EU already took too much from nation goverments.

And it had marginal part in elections - PIS won mostly due to economic reasons. Millions of people here work for minimum salary (<400 euro monthly) barely having enough money to cover basic needs and those people got pissed off because previous ruling party and media elites were driving the narration of huge success of last 25 years.

 

[dapperbandit]

Euroscepticism in Poland is marginal - the only difference of opinion is between people who want to go for bigger integration (Tusk and his previous ruling party) and those who think EU already took too much from nation goverments.

And it had marginal part in elections - PIS won mostly due to economic reasons. Millions of people here work for minimum salary (<400 euro monthly) barely having enough money to cover basic needs and those people got pissed off because previous ruling party and media elites were driving the narration of huge success of last 25 years.

Perhaps I misread the situation then. From the way they removed the EU flag from some ceremonies to their current actions with the courts, the press I had gathered that being anti-EU was integral to the party.

 

[Extra Sauce]

No one claimed they did? the poster said "pure scum" and I'd say being complicit in an organized effort to rape, sexually assault and mug women is scum, yes.

Then again, I wasn't intending to play the semantics game like you, and you're clearly putting words in people's mouths. They asked a numbers question, I answered with it.

My bad. I should have better informed myself before posting. My mistake was thinking that the 1000 figure represented a crowd of people, when in reality it represents a coordinated group. I apologize.

 

[Miles Quaritch]

German officials find a book of phrases that say; nice boobs, I want to have sex with you and I will kill you...

And still people don't believe they were recent arrivials

Book of phrases.

One of them was carrying a note written in both German and Arabic carrying translations of phrases including "Beautiful breasts", "I want to have sex with you" and "I&#8217;ll kill you", the Telegraph reported.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...ith-note-translating-threats-to-a6802421.html

Exaggerating doesn't help. Might I also suggest you stop reading the Daily Mail too...

 

[hesido]

I'm guessing some can't adapt to western countries due to cultural differences on the matter of sex and the role of women in society is much more pronounced in the west. This brings out the worst in some of them. These type of men think every woman is a potential target for their sexual needs, especially those that dare to dress "provocatively". When provocatively, I mean anyone not hiding their hair, showing their arms, skirt above the ankle. I'm trying hard to not get a ban here.

 

[funkypie]

Book of phrases.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...ith-note-translating-threats-to-a6802421.html

Exaggerating doesn't help. Might I also suggest you stop reading the Daily Mail too...

This was on live news actually. But never mind I knew you would check all corners of the Internet.

I never said there was multiple copies did I? A book or a note, who gives a fuck, they still had one. You think he's the only one that has a list of phrases?

 

[Gemüsepizza]

No one claimed they did? the poster said "pure scum" and I'd say being complicit in an organized effort to rape, sexually assault and mug women is scum, yes.

Then again, I wasn't intending to play the semantics game like you, and you're clearly putting words in people's mouths. They asked a numbers question, I answered with it.

There was a group of 1000 individuals, but the majority was not involved in any kind of theft or sexual attacks, on the contrary.

Here is an eye witness report from a woman who was there, alone (she is a German writer):

http://www1.wdr.de/themen/aktuell/interview-facebook-shitstorm-100.html

https://www.facebook.com/regina.schleheck/posts/1024621834227118

Might have to use the translate feature. She said the men were friendly, calm and respectful. It's a long post, worth a read. After she posted of her experience, she was quickly attacked by German racists:

When I look at your picture I believe you that they didn't want anything from you

You are just too old to be attractive

Woah with your looks it's obvious that they didn't want to touch a wreck like you.

You great foreigner friend, if they had groped you, you would even apologize to them for being in the wrong place at the wrong time

I hate those multi-cultural friends
you are the worst racists and fascists because you are so much against your own people
you are a traitor

How much money have you received to write shit like this? I wish you to get screwed like the women in Cologne!

 

[Irminsul]

Book of phrases.

On a very unrelated note, did the Independent actually censor the German word for "fuck"? LOL. Although I see that in the original, it says "fucken", which is very close to English but wrong German. The correct term is "ficken".

Spoiler

themoreyouknow.jpg

 

[RubberJohnny]

There was a group of 1000 individuals, but the majority was not involved in any kind of theft or sexual attacks, on the contrary.

There were actually multiple groups of 1,000 people. One in Cologne, one in Helsinki, and smaller groups in many other towns.

 

[ClosingADoor]

There was a group of 1000 individuals, but the majority was not involved in any kind of theft or sexual attacks, on the contrary.

Here is an eye witness report from a woman who was there, alone (she is a German writer):

http://www1.wdr.de/themen/aktuell/interview-facebook-shitstorm-100.html

https://www.facebook.com/regina.schleheck/posts/1024621834227118

Might have to use the translate feature. She said the men were friendly, calm and respectful. It's a long post, worth a read. After she posted of her experience, she was quickly attacked by German racists:

100+ others were attacked, so one girl who didn't have trouble isn't that much of a comfort.

There were actually multiple groups of 1,000 people. One in Cologne, one in Helsinki, and smaller groups in many other towns.

The Helsinki stuff turned out to be not true.

 

[Gemüsepizza]

There were actually multiple groups of 1,000 people. One in Cologne, one in Helsinki, and smaller groups in many other towns.

You missed the point. There was no group of 1000 criminals.

100+ others were attacked, so one girl who didn't have trouble isn't that much of a comfort.

She doesn't say that these crimes did not happen around this area, she just tells her experience in this crowd, and that the majority of those men probably weren't bad people.

 

[BKK]

I really can't contemplate how somebody seeking asylum, and then offered asylum by a countries' people can then at the first chance sexually abuse the daughters, sisters, and wives of the people who opened their doors to them. I'm pretty thick skinned, but feel overwhelmingly sickened by these incidents. To do such things to underage girsl in front of their fathers ... absolutely sickening .... vile. What were the police doing?

 

[ClosingADoor]

She doesn't say that these crimes did not happen around this area, she just tells her experience in this crowd, and that the majority of those men probably weren't bad people.

Enough of them looked away, turned on the police or participated. Sure, not everybody, but enough to be a major problem. Just seems strange to focus on one Facebook post then that says she had no problems. Just as it would be strange the other way around if it would have been just 1 incident. Unfortunately, it wasn't.

Is everybody bad? Of course not. But the problems are big enough to have a major effect and reason enough to take a serious look at the current asylum process, integration issues of people already here and how we deal with it.

 

[BKK]

I'm guessing some can't adapt to western countries due to cultural differences on the matter of sex and the role of women in society is much more pronounced in the west. This brings out the worst in some of them. These type of men think every woman is a potential target for their sexual needs, especially those that dare to dress "provocatively". When provocatively, I mean anyone not hiding their hair, showing their arms, skirt above the ankle. I'm trying hard to not get a ban here.

I don't buy this. I'm sure that sexually assaulting women in public is equally abhorrent and frowned upon in Islamic countries, the only difference being that you might get capital or corporate punishment for such acts against another man's relative under Sharia law, where as in the liberal west you get a slap on the wrist due to so called "cultural differences". These people know it's wrong in any country or any culture, would they excuse such acts against their own relatives? Of course not, so let's not make up excuses for such vile acts by such vile people.

 

[Madness]

I really can't contemplate how somebody seeking asylum, and then offered asylum by a countries' people can then at the first chance sexually abuse the daughters, sisters, and wives of the people who opened their doors to them. I'm pretty thick skinned, but feel overwhelmingly sickened by these incidents. To do such things to underage girsl in front of their fathers ... absolutely sickening .... vile. What were the police doing?

I don't know whether it was last year or a few years back, but the UK brought tons of Libyan army guys for training in the country. They converted some old barracks for them, said that the locals should respect the cultural differences between them etc. One night, a bunch of them got super drunk and left the barracks and raped like 4 women and also raped one man who was coming back from a wedding. They also would say things to younger UK recruits training with them, how much to buy you for sex etc.

When you come from a country/culture where men and women are not equal, you're bound to see terrible viewpoints still exist and the problem having thousands of people with these viewpoints coexist with others.

 

[Moonstar]

There was a group of 1000 individuals, but the majority was not involved in any kind of theft or sexual attacks, on the contrary.

Here is an eye witness report from a woman who was there, alone (she is a German writer):

http://www1.wdr.de/themen/aktuell/interview-facebook-shitstorm-100.html

https://www.facebook.com/regina.schleheck/posts/1024621834227118

Might have to use the translate feature. She said the men were friendly, calm and respectful. It's a long post, worth a read. After she posted of her experience, she was quickly attacked by German racists:

Ah, I fully expect jezebel to pick up HER story since marginalized minorities simply can't be criminals.

 

[BKK]

I don't know whether it was last year or a few years back, but the UK brought tons of Libyan army guys for training in the country. They converted some old barracks for them, said that the locals should respect the cultural differences between them etc. One night, a bunch of them got super drunk and left the barracks and raped like 4 women and also raped one man who was coming back from a wedding. They also would say things to younger UK recruits training with them, how much to buy you for sex etc.

When you come from a country/culture where men and women are not equal, you're bound to see terrible viewpoints still exist and the problem having thousands of people with these viewpoints coexist with others.

Yes, I remember that incident ... equally sickening, but was that normal behaviour in Libya under Gaddafi? I think not, and did all of the Libyan army guys commit sexual assaults? No, because they knew it was wrong, the only difference being that most of them not only knew it was wrong, but chose not to do what they knew was wrong. Also, isn't homosexuality forbidden in Islam? I don't think that we can excuse male rape under different cultural norms in Islamic countries.

 

[ClosingADoor]

Yes, I remember that incident ... equally sickening, but was that normal behaviour in Libya under Gaddafi? I think not, and did all of the Libyan army guys commit sexual assaults? No, because they knew it was wrong, the only difference being that most of them not only knew it was wrong, but chose not to do what they knew was wrong.

And they knew they wouldn't get away with it. Some time in a German or UK prison cell will not have much effect on you if you're from those areas. If anything, they will get in touch with more criminals, like we saw in French where people radicalized more and more in prison.

 

[Madness]

Yes, I remember that incident ... equally sickening, but was that normal behaviour in Libya under Gaddafi? I think not, and did all of the Libyan army guys commit sexual assaults? No, because they knew it was wrong, the only difference being that most of them not only knew it was wrong, but chose not to do what they knew was wrong. Also, isn't homosexuality forbidden in Islam? I don't think that we can excuse male rape under different cultural norms in Islamic countries.

You said you just don't know how someone could abuse their status as a refugee or whatnot. I showed that in the UK, these soldiers were there to train against Gaddafi and to return and be a role model. The issue is, you're forgetting that most of these people are adults and raised with a certain viewpoint, especially regarding men and women and foreigners. Just being in a different place with different laws means nothing. In Libya, this kind of behavior was common and rape against women was vast.

I don't buy this. I'm sure that sexually assaulting women in public is equally abhorrent and frowned upon in Islamic countries, the only difference being that you might get capital or corporate punishment for such acts against another man's relative under Sharia law, where as in the liberal west you get a slap on the wrist due to so called "cultural differences". These people know it's wrong in any country or any culture, would they excuse such acts against their own relatives? Of course not, so let's not make up excuses for such vile acts by such vile people.

What? Islamic countries are some of the most repressive countries in terms of rights for women. In places like Pakistan or Afghanistan, women are often forced to marry their rapist to avoid the shame of being raped, which would make you virtually unmarriagable. Other places like Saudi Arabia, all it takes is being accused of adultery or sex outside marriage for the woman to be stoned or beheaded most of the time.

A country can say whatever they want about their laws or what they represent, there is the reality that often goes against it. North Korea considers itself the Democratic People's Republic of Korea, yet is nothing like a democracy. Many studies have shown that countries with Sharia Law are very unfair to women when it comes to any aspect, the men hold all the power.

 

[waveuponwave]

I don't buy this. I'm sure that sexually assaulting women in public is equally abhorrent and frowned upon in Islamic countries, the only difference being that you might get capital or corporate punishment for such acts against another man's relative under Sharia law, where as in the liberal west you get a slap on the wrist due to so called "cultural differences". These people know it's wrong in any country or any culture, would they excuse such acts against their own relatives? Of course not, so let's not make up excuses for such vile acts by such vile people.

I don't buy this "slap on the wrist due to cultural differences" stuff. If your not ethinically-German-looking, you're actually much more likely to get controlled by the police, racial profiling is a thing. Just look at how long the police blamed the families of the NSU victims for their murder

If few perpetrators will be punished (which is likely, I'm afraid), it's more because with such a large crowd of people as a cover it's really hard to prove beyond doubt someone took part in the attacks.
Add to that a group mentality among the refugees that means few will report on the others and police work gets pretty much impossible

 

[MisterFalcon]

You missed the point. There was no group of 1000 criminals.

Preventing the police from helping victims of criminals makes you a criminal as well.

 

[ClosingADoor]

I don't buy this "slap on the wrist due to cultural differences" stuff. If your not ethinically-German-looking, you're actually much more likely to get controlled by the police, racial profiling is a thing. Just look at how long the police blamed the families of the NSU victims for their murder

If few perpetrators will be punished (which is likely, I'm afraid), it's more because with such a large crowd of people as a cover it's really hard to prove beyond doubt someone took part in the attacks.
Add to that a group mentality among the refugees that means few will report on the others and police work gets pretty much impossible

When people say the punishments are too small, I think they also mean too few people are caught and convicted. When these crimes are in isolation, one theft or harassment does not get priority by police. But those things do add up and make people feel unsafe in their own neighborhoods. When you then have those guys convicted for a month here, a few days of community service there, some probation there, it adds to the frustration and feeling of helplessness about the issue.

Are you more likely to get profiled when non-white in Europe? Sure. Saw it myself living in a mostly black neighborhood where the police just let me through without a check and others not. It's not good of course.

 

[BKK]

What? Islamic countries are some of the most repressive countries in terms of rights for women. In places like Pakistan or Afghanistan, women are often forced to marry their rapist to avoid the shame of being raped, which would make you virtually unmarriagable. Other places like Saudi Arabia, all it takes is being accused of adultery or sex outside marriage for the woman to be stoned or beheaded most of the time.

A country can say whatever they want about their laws or what they represent, there is the reality that often goes against it. North Korea considers itself the Democratic People's Republic of Korea, yet is nothing like a democracy. Many studies have shown that countries with Sharia Law are very unfair to women when it comes to any aspect, the men hold all the power.

Right, but if you want to look at it from their "cultural point of view", then you have to look at it from the view point of a male relative. For a man to sexually assault their sister/ daughter / wife / mother in public they would consider it abhorrent. They know it's wrong, but still choose to commit such vile acts. There's really no excuse as many other men from the same culture do not commit such acts.

 

[BKK]

I don't buy this "slap on the wrist due to cultural differences" stuff. If your not ethinically-German-looking, you're actually much more likely to get controlled by the police, racial profiling is a thing. Just look at how long the police blamed the families of the NSU victims for their murder

If few perpetrators will be punished (which is likely, I'm afraid), it's more because with such a large crowd of people as a cover it's really hard to prove beyond doubt someone took part in the attacks.
Add to that a group mentality among the refugees that means few will report on the others and police work gets pretty much impossible

Sorry, I'm not from Germany, I just saw these incidents reported on the national news in the UK. I don't know what the NSU victim is (or what NSU stands for), or what relevance racial profiling has to these incidences. From reading your post your' replying to my "what were the police doing?" comment? The police chief resigned, so I assume that the police recognise that they didn't act appropriately? I'm really just commenting on what I've seen on the UK news, so if I'm missing anything, feel free to elaborate.

 

[RubberJohnny]

The Helsinki stuff turned out to be not true.

What's your source for this, because a quick survey on Google News shows no rebuttals and it still being reported recently?

 

[BreezyLimbo]

Book of phrases.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...ith-note-translating-threats-to-a6802421.html

Exaggerating doesn't help. Might I also suggest you stop reading the Daily Mail too...

Holy shit. If that's true, a fucking note of threats and vulgarities like that, man what the fuck. Who does that?

 

[ClosingADoor]

What's your source for this, because a quick survey on Google News shows no rebuttals and it still being reported recently?

Earlier in this thread it was linked that the tip off to police about refugees going into town to assault people was either wrong or greatly exaggerated.

Finish source: http://www.mtv.fi/uutiset/rikos/art...-taustalla-shiiojen-ja-sunnien-riidat/5642798

But it does seem there were troubles and some charges have been files according to the Telegraph, but not on the scale we saw in Cologne http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...lsinki-at-New-Year-Finnish-police-report.html

Three Iraqi asylum seekers have been arrested for committing sexual assaults during the celebrations in the city&#8217;s Senate Square, where some 20,000 had gathered.

Security personnel reported &#8220;widespead sexual harrassment&#8221; during the celebrations, police added, with women complaining that asylum seekers had groped their breasts and kissed them without permission.

[..]

Mr Koskimaki said that sexual assults in parks and on the streets had been unknown in Finland before a record 32,000 asylum seekers arrived in 2015, making the 14 cases last year &#8220;big news in the city&#8221;.

 

[Gemüsepizza]

Ah, I fully expect jezebel to pick up HER story since marginalized minorities simply can't be criminals.

Where did she say that?

Preventing the police from helping victims of criminals makes you a criminal as well.

Of course. There still were no 1000 criminals. Again: The majority was not part of those thefts and attacks.

 

[funkypie]

Holy shit. If that's true, a fucking note of threats and vulgarities like that, man what the fuck. Who does that?

it is ok because it is not a 'book', a note means it is not a useful piece of evidence according to the poster.

 

[ClosingADoor]

Of course. There still were no 1000 criminals. Again: The majority was not part of those thefts and attacks.

That is all fine, but a large enough group was, so you are still talking dozens of actual criminals and more that just looked away or made work difficult for the police to intervene.

 

[More Fun To Compute]

That is all fine, but a large enough group was, so you are still talking dozens of actual criminals and more that just looked away or made work difficult for the police to intervene.

The police would not have stood back and pretended that nothing was happening if it was only around 30 people causing a disturbance.

 

[Kinokou]

I'm seriously considering signing my little girl up for shit like Krav Maga as soon as she's old enough, just to give her a fighting chance against animals like this.

I think that can be a good mindset to have regardless of the refugee situation, first time someone went groping on me it was a white Norwegian acquaintance who also happened to know my SO at the time. So you never know when you will need a good punch as it can just as likely be for someone you consider trustworthy.

 

[Chittagong]

When Germany announced open doors, people opposed to immigration reasoned that uncontrolled immigration would

1 - Lead to women being sexually assaulted by a disproportionately high percentage of immigrants
2 - Bring in opportunistic people shopping for free European welfare and benefits, while not really being at risk at home
3 - Become a channel to sneak in ISIS terrorists to plan end execute attacks in Europe

The liberal crowd was quick to label these three key concerns as "rasist". Once the first proof of these things happening came to light, they were quickly labeled as "isolated". When the government stated that the cases are not isolated, the argument changed to "most immigrants are not bad" - which nobody really argued to begin with.

Now that every single one of the scenarios has come to fruition beyond doubt, the pro-immigration crowd has had to come up with a new angle, which is shaming European people for being xenophobic, shaming the street patrols, being "disappointed at my country".

Merkel's opportunistically furious backpedal must be a bitter pill.

 

[Bollocks]

There was a group of 1000 individuals, but the majority was not involved in any kind of theft or sexual attacks, on the contrary.

Here is an eye witness report from a woman who was there, alone (she is a German writer):

http://www1.wdr.de/themen/aktuell/interview-facebook-shitstorm-100.html

https://www.facebook.com/regina.schleheck/posts/1024621834227118

Might have to use the translate feature. She said the men were friendly, calm and respectful. It's a long post, worth a read. After she posted of her experience, she was quickly attacked by German racists:

Lol, so she wasn't actually there when the assaults happened but decided to weigh in any way and report that everything was ok in another part of the location(despite that she acknowledges that immigrants walked on the train tracks and that's why they shut the station down), but at least there were no sexual assaults happening, well duh, that's what I expect!
What I don't expect is mass assaults on women in Western Europe, that's noteworthy.
But I guess it's a nice Nebelgranate

 

[YourMaster]

There's really no way to defend this. If the press is against the ruling party, this is too bad for the ruling party, but nothing they should be able to change.

I'm not sure I fully agree, I don't know enough about the situation in Poland to comment, but this is an interesting situation,...
In general, if you truly are the first democratic party after a fascist state you have a duty to set things right and dismantle government control, state propaganda bureaus and transform into a truly free society. If one government dismantles democratic institutions like the media, the courts or even the constitution, the next one has to be able to correct this if possible.

Now lets suppose the public broadcasting really was a government puppet of the ruling party, how should you clean this up without turning into the monster you set out to fight,... Abolish public broadcasting all together and allow commercial parties to do news if they want? Distribute broadcasting hours on the public channel to news associations based on public membership numbers (e.g. republican news, democratic news, green news)? Make the public elect a neutral person in charge of ensuring press freedom?

 

[SolidusDave]

100+ others were attacked, so one girl who didn't have trouble isn't that much of a comfort.

I don't think she wanted to discredit the victims or pretend the whole thing didn't happen, just demonstrating that not all of the foreigners / groups of refugees acted like a bunch of animals. This is obvious of course, as it wasn't the full 1000 guys going crazy.

Also, I don't want to sound too mean but 56 year old women are not exactly these guys' preferred prey...

 

[Violet_0]

Poland has elected one and the EU is not happy

Poland isn't either

whenever a right-wing party rises to power, everything goes south

Who, the unelected gravy train riders in Brussels and Strasbourg or the common folk??

Because I have not heard one person saying anything bad about it.

Lol yeah they are eurosceptic so of course the EU is not happy.

yeah never mind that they just ended freedom of press, which I imagine goes against a EU legislation (let's forget for a moment that Poland profited a lot from the EU)

 

[Mrmartel]

SolidusDave;191645013]I don't think she wanted to discredit the victims or pretend the whole thing didn't happen, just demonstrating that not all of the foreigners / groups of refugees acted like a bunch of animals. This is obvious of course, as it wasn't the full 1000 guys going crazy.

Also, I don't want to sound too mean but 56 year old women are not exactly these guys' preferred prey.

Times a hundred, read between the lines in this article and the women gives a personal antidote similarly to something I would say if I was in Cologne that night, walking around and didn't get mugged. It was NYE, there was probably a couple hundred thousand out and about the city. Even If a thousand muggings and a thousand rapes (not near that many of course) occurred, the odds are still against a person ever witnessing or becoming a victim of one that night. So it would appear to be a regular NYE night, with groups of people walking around.

 

[Breakage]

I'm guessing some can't adapt to western countries due to cultural differences on the matter of sex and the role of women in society is much more pronounced in the west. This brings out the worst in some of them. These type of men think every woman is a potential target for their sexual needs, especially those that dare to dress "provocatively". When provocatively, I mean anyone not hiding their hair, showing their arms, skirt above the ankle. I'm trying hard to not get a ban here.

These guys don't hail from an ancient tribe deep in some remote jungle- it's not like they have never seen the modern world and have no idea that assaulting women in public is wrong. You can't even do that in Islam so the "it's their culture" defence doesn't work. As far as I'm aware these men don't have learning disabilities that prevent them from understanding things -one asylum seeker who was arrested was even cocky enough to say "I am Syrian - I must handled in a friendly manner - Merkel invited us". These men knew what they were doing.

 

[El Topo]

Do you find it equally disgusting when the left stirs up gun control debates following mass shootings?

As was mentioned already, your comparison is not very fitting. I'm also not American, nor do I often engage in discussion about said subject, so my explanation will be mostly theoretical.

Regarding your question, we basically have two parts, which cannot be completely separated in practice: The act of pushing an agenda and the agenda itself. These cannot be judged completely independently and depend on context. If we solely look at the act of using an event to push an agenda in a vacuum, then clearly this is a disgusting* act regardless of ideology. For quantification however, one cannot ignore context and in general ideology cannot be ignored in that case either (since this is always personal/subjective). Even in this thread, the actions/statements of some people are clearly more reprehensible to me than those of others. For example I had a discussion in this very thread about victim blaming (regarding the statements of the mayor of Cologne), but I hold no ill feelings just because someone disagrees with me over said matter. Regarding the gun violence debate, if someone entered such a thread about a shooting and gleefully exlaimed that he felt vindicated, then I would arguably think much less of that person and find the person's action disgusting.

*I'm noting that I use the term disgusting maybe a bit too often. Is there an adequate English term that goes beyond respectless, but not as far as disgusting? Reprehensible maybe? That term seems a bit more appropriate, but it still carries a bit too much weight for my taste.

 

[Mrmartel]

These guys don't hail from an ancient tribe deep in some remote jungle- it's not like they have never seen the modern world and have no idea that assaulting women in public is wrong. You can't even do that in Islam so the "it's their culture" defence doesn't work. As far as I'm aware these men don't have learning disabilities that prevent them from understanding things -one asylum seeker who was arrested was even cocky enough to say "I am Syrian - I must handled in a friendly manner - Merkel invited us". These men knew what they were doing.

A theory of mine (maybe more just questions), probably thought already by someone, somewhere on the web.

But what if these refugees, migrants and immigrants view Europeans and their culture as passive, pathetic, nihilistic and weak? What if they are emboldened to commit crimes because they have so little respect for the countries, the open arms, free money/material things and people that have accepted them. What if they view governmental warnings of deportation, European prison systems and sentences as a westerner would view a day in kindergarten?

The middle east is a hard culture, strength and power are respected. One only needs to point to the dictators that kept the peace through their brutal tactics in multiple countries in the past and currently, of which many are former homes to these migrants. What if this whole issue is going to keep getting worse (assaults, terrorists attacks, refusal of cultural integration in all it's forms), until Europeans finally assert themselves. Finally what does that assertiveness look like, if and when it finally comes? What forms will it take?

 

[Nivash]

A theory of mine (maybe more just questions), probably thought already by someone, somewhere on the web.

But what if these refugees, migrants and immigrants view Europeans and their culture as passive, pathetic, nihilistic and weak? What if they are emboldened to commit crimes because they have so little respect for the countries, the open arms, free money/material things and people that have accepted them. What if they view governmental warnings of deportation, European prison systems and sentences as a westerner would view a day in kindergarten?

The middle east is a hard culture, strength and power are respected. One only needs to point to the dictators that kept the peace through their brutal tactics in multiple countries in the past and currently, of which many are former homes to these migrants. What if this whole issue is going to keep getting worse (assaults, terrorists attacks, refusal of cultural integration in all it's forms), until Europeans finally assert themselves. Finally what does that assertiveness look like, if and when it finally comes? What forms will it take?

Are you seriously presenting this as some kind of novel theory? It's one of the oldest anti-foreigner narratives in history. "They hate us for our freedom" is a variation of it. It's been used against every out-group imaginable, from former slaves to Jews. I wouldn't be surprised if the ancient Greeks used it when talking about their "barbarian" neighbors. It's an age old prejudice because it's born out of a fear of being taken advantage of and a lack of understanding of the other group, which leads to assumptions that they're somehow brutish and less refined. It's not even restricted to immigrants, it's been a key facet of war propaganda - hell, it's still brought up in discussions about how supposedly spoiled NATO soldiers would lose a fight to supposedly not hardened Russians or Chinese. It's even used for internal politics and is a classic argument among conservatives who want to suggest that our culture has become decadent and that foreigners will destroy us unless we "purify" ourselves (typically by oppressing minorities).

Saying that X culture is hard and only respect strength and power is almost a stereotype of an idea and it's been used and abused to death, in many cases literally. And I can only assume that you've never so much as talked to an immigrant from the Middle East if that's your idea of people from there, especially refugees. Look at Syria - the kind of people with those types of ideas are the ones that joined ISIS, Al Nusra or Assad's torture squads. The people fleeing to Europe and elsewhere want to get away from that kind of environment.

I'm sorry if I come off as harsh, but you have to be hopelessly naive to not have encountered this narrative before and to be honest I doubt that's actually the case, it's more likely that you've absorbed it without knowing it. Especially since you consciously or not ended on vaguely alluding to a future race war, another age old narrative. I'm not exaggerating when I say that I've read versions of your post - structure and all - hundreds of times before, but I think this might actually be the first time I've seen someone present it as a new idea.

 

[Moonstar]

2 Syrian brothers killed their pregnant sister. One of them still lived in a refugee center.

http://www.faz.net/aktuell/gesellsc...ich-von-ihren-bruedern-getoetet-14004631.html

Many bad headlines this week. The innocent refugees will suffer because of it.

 

[His Majesty]

Poland isn't either

whenever a right-wing party rises to power, everything goes south

Agreed. Despite Poland massively voting for change, the previous government, which lost one third of its seats, should have stayed in charge. Then Poland would have been happy.

The things you read here...

 

[Breakage]

A theory of mine (maybe more just questions), probably thought already by someone, somewhere on the web.

But what if these refugees, migrants and immigrants view Europeans and their culture as passive, pathetic, nihilistic and weak? What if they are emboldened to commit crimes because they have so little respect for the countries, the open arms, free money/material things and people that have accepted them. What if they view governmental warnings of deportation, European prison systems and sentences as a westerner would view a day in kindergarten?

The middle east is a hard culture, strength and power are respected. One only needs to point to the dictators that kept the peace through their brutal tactics in multiple countries in the past and currently, of which many are former homes to these migrants. What if this whole issue is going to keep getting worse (assaults, terrorists attacks, refusal of cultural integration in all it's forms), until Europeans finally assert themselves. Finally what does that assertiveness look like, if and when it finally comes? What forms will it take?

I think there's truth to that. It's clear the people who participated in this incident and similar ones across Europe don't care about attempting to integrate or being grateful for being allowed in. This is evidenced by the brazen nature of the attacks - you have to be pretty bold to attack a 15 year old girl in front of her father. You just don't do things like this if you care about becoming a well integrated citizen. These type of men have nothing to lose - it's all about personal satisfaction no matter who suffers in the process. It's the same kind of attitude that powers people behind recent terrorist attacks.
Even if these guys end up getting thrown in jail, they'll probably end up becoming radicalised.The point is such people had no intention of being a good citizen in the first place. Europe has been a soft touch and people like these men are taking advantage of it to the point where it's affecting security and social cohesion.
Europe will go downhill in my opinion.The middle east is an area that needs dictators to keep things in check. The West should have kept it's nose out.