Their latest media law is pretty worrying. I think many people regardless of political spectrum expressed that.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35257105
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Germany: Merkel disgust at New Year gang assaults
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http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35257105
I really want to see the look on the face of the unlucky sob when he realizes he assaulted the wrong girl.
dapperbandit
Banned
Well apparently there are public protests against the government from groups unhappy that they have a right wing majority government for the first time in decades.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35142582
They are in the process of destroying their own "Rechtsstaat". Nobody should be happy with what is happening in Poland. Even though I'm right leaning (by European standards) myself, Poland is a good example how the cure can be worse than the affliction.
If you're doing that, I really can't understand why you're agreeing with the CSU. At least most of the refugees are fleeing from war zones. Do you think they'll stop fleeing because someone somewhere said they would like to have an upper bound of refugees per year? Fucking drowning in the Mediterranean didn't stop them. The only difference is that they're now in Germany, not "far away" in southern Italy or Greece. And if you're actually helping them now, why in the world would you agree with going back to the old situation again? They will still flee, the only difference is that then they'll be treated less humanely again (not because Italy and Greece are evil, but because they're overwhelmed). Congratulations.
ClosingADoor
Member
Not letting everybody in is not the same thing as stopping all help. If the European borders are closed more, the money saved from housing people here can be put to use in other areas to help those people. Meanwhile we wouldn't have to filter out a lot of people from the Balkans and Northern Africa that would just be deported after a few months anyway and are taking places of actual refugees.
Gemüsepizza
Member
That's simply not true. The amount of refugees is not "unmanageable". On the contrary, there is more and more evidence that the situation in Cologne could have been entirely prevented, if the police leadership had acted properly. There were requests for more police men when planning this event, it was denied. There were offers on NYE from other districts to send 114 additional police men for backup, they were refused. Now the head of police in Cologne was ordered to go into retirement.
You don't read much news, do you? Poland and Hungary already elected right wing extremists into their governments. And what will happen is that they will be kicked out of the EU if they continue with their hateful politics.
What's Balkans have to do with this?
Moonstar
Neo Member
We can't take in everyone, we simply can't. Another million this year? Impossible. I've seen the situation in refugee camps here. I don't want ghettos being build in Germany. And at some point the German government has to think about what Germans want as well. There has to be another solution and the politicians have to find it soon.
I help them because they are here, I can't change that and I want them to integrate fast because the opposite would be catastrophic. I help those who are here but I don't want more to come, I'm completely honest about that. Call me selfish and cold but that's the reality.
I know the situation in Syria is hellish but Germany can't take in everybody, it's impossible. If countries can't find a way to work together to limit the mass of people coming, then we need to close the borders.
Leyasu
Banned
I'm not saying it is right or wrong, just that it could well happen, and other countries will follow.
I just want what is best for my kids. Which like I wrote above would be to get a decent education (which is not expensive in France) and get the fuck out of the ok world I think. I would try now but my gf is a civil servant and has quite a few advantages in France. Shame.
Edit gemuspizza. Ask the majority of people in the UK and they would say that they would love for the UK to be kicked out of the EU..lol
ClosingADoor
Member
Of course it could be prevented. If proper policies are in place and the manpower is there to handle it. But they are not, because there are too many people to deal with at the moment.Gemüsepizza;191607329 said:
And even then, you are preventing stuff like assault only because of police presence, not because the people doing this are suddenly changing their minds about their views on women or bettering their integration in society. Which is a problem in itself for the future.
Talk about Poland being kicked out of the EU is a bit soon and not a very smart thing to do I think.
There are a lot of people from Albania for example coming in with the current stream of refugees. They will be rejected in time and don't get to stay, but they do take up space, money and manpower to filter them out. Same with people from other poor, but safe regions.
dapperbandit
Banned
Gemüsepizza;191607329 said:
I'm sure this keeps Orban awake all night.
Extra Sauce
Member
How did you come up with that statistic?
edit: My bad. I should have better informed myself before posting. My mistake was thinking that the 1000 figure represented a crowd of people, when in reality it represents a coordinated group. I apologize.
But that is already happening. Asylum seekers from the Balkans have basically no chance to have their request granted in Germany.
Actually closing the borders, however, is a nice political talking point as long as you don't actually try to implement it, especially within the EU itself. Even Germany, Denmark and Sweden, who suspended Schengen, only do spot tests. Because everything else would lead to chaos at the borders -- not caused by refugees, but commuters.
MisterFalcon
Member
As there is no way to remove a country from the EU without their cooperation talk of kicking anyone out is pretty hollow.
ClosingADoor
Member
That is my point. They have no chance, but they are still trying and in that time but more strain on an already overloaded system. If you can filter the people directly at the source (refugee camps in Turkey and Lebanon) it would be more effective and you can help more people with the same resources.
Of course closing borders would also come with problems, but these would be the outside borders of Europe, not the Schengen zone itself. I don't know how much traffic goes through there, but those borders need to be secured anyway. That is a normal thing.
Gemüsepizza
Member
Did you even read what I wrote? There was enough manpower available. The police leadership simply refused to deploy them.
Have you ever been to the German Oktoberfest? There are many reports about sexual harrasement and rapes every year. This happens despite there being a massive police contingent. Now imagine what happens if there is no/not enough police at the Oktoberfest. This view on women you are talking about doesn't care about nationalities.
You can be pretty sure that the other big EU states like Germany, France, UK... have already talked about it and explored options. They want to prevent this of course. But it's more and more evident that some countries do not care about our European values. Maybe it's better to have a new EU with progressive countries who respect human rights and human life.
It should. What will he do if the EU kicks his country out? Turn to Russia? Lol.
Dutch Microwave
Member
Yeah it's probably not gonna happen but the truth is without EU money,the country's fucked.
Gemüsepizza;191607329 said:
The far right has been a part of the government for like 12+ years now,I cant be arsed to look the exact years up.The reason they're strong now is because the country was under the left's leadership for 8 years (2004-2010) and they were bad,then Orban came whos in his 6th year now (was reelected in 2014 for some reason) and its even worse now with the rampant corruption they're not even trying to hide anymore.
So people have always had to choose between these 3 bigger parties and since currently the whole left is made up of chickenshit and clueless individuals,people started thinking,maybe its time for the right to have a shot at the wheel on an "it cant be worse" basis (at least that's what i'm hoping for and not that the whole country's actually racist,the actual voter turnout has been lower and lower the past decade now,I think most people are just apatethic towards the whole kidergarten shitshow that is the parliament) and mind you this was all BEFORE the refugees started arriving.The right has been saying all the right stuff (which means they'll most likely forget all the promises as soon as they're in power with the exception of coming down hard on criminal minorities) and this migration wave came in handy as well.
Frankly I think Orban was only taking a hard stance against migration because he was trying to win voters back from them.
1000 is 5% of 20000? The reports of 1000 men, you know.
purvispisgah
Member
It does seem strange that many who typically contribute to threads regarding sexual violence are absent in this one. Is it possible that the thread title not referencing the sexual nature of many of the attacks might be the reason?
Anectodally, it's a similar situation with my facebook friend circle. Friends who are normally extremely passionate about these issues are completely silent. I think it's because people are afraid of speaking against these attacks due to not wanting to be associated with bigots and they don't want to speak ill of refugees and/or their religion.
Led_Zeppelin
Member
It isn't strange at all. Also a week later I doubt anyone doesn't know already what could the NYE events are and why would Merkel feel disgusted about it. People don't usually talk about thinks that don't enforce their own opinions. Look at the general reaction the Guardian got after (finally!) releasing an article almost a week late.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jan/08/cologne-attacks-hard-questions-new-years-eve
Doczu
Member
Lol at all the posters claiming Polands new goverment is "right wing (extremist)".
And the outcry about the new media laws. Funny that when people were protesting 8 years ago when the previous goverment was inserting their pawns into the media it was dismissed as "petty" and "stupid", but when a new group issues changes it's like the damn world is ending.
To think that the current ruling party, Law and Order, will change the country to a extremist, racist kettle of bigots is stupid, to say the least.
The people demanded a change, and for a good reason too, so they chose the " lesser evil", as there were more conservative (or in your language: extremist) parties out there.
And the outcry about the new media laws. Funny that when people were protesting 8 years ago when the previous goverment was inserting their pawns into the media it was dismissed as "petty" and "stupid", but when a new group issues changes it's like the damn world is ending.
To think that the current ruling party, Law and Order, will change the country to a extremist, racist kettle of bigots is stupid, to say the least.
The people demanded a change, and for a good reason too, so they chose the " lesser evil", as there were more conservative (or in your language: extremist) parties out there.
purvispisgah
Member
I think it's also because this story has gotten very little media attention, but for similar reasons to what you have mentioned.
No it's not what you are reading. You are one of the crowd who see what they want to see and are blind to others.
You seem to not like generalizations so much so what's your thoughts on immigration that is fully generalised and does not take steps to determine suitability of a candidate?
ClosingADoor
Member
Unfortunately sexual assault happens a lot, with a lot of different people and in a lot of countries. I am not denying that. It is disgusting and no matter who does it, it must be handled and the attacker should be punished.Gemüsepizza;191609210 said:
What I am saying is that bringing in large groups of people who have shown themselves to display this kind of behavior and have not integrated well into society over the past decades is not a smart thing to do.
In this case, there was no past indication that something like this happens. Now we suddenly have reports from multiple cities of it. Should we have cops at every corner now because we can't trust people to keep their hands to themselves? I don't want people in my society who make that necessary.
For all your talk about open borders and bringing people from other cultures in, you seem happy to kick out everyone who doesn't agree with your opinion. This is pretty basic democracy: if the people support certain policies according with the treaties and laws that country has agreed to, it should be done. If the Polish people don't support the same policies as you, that is their right. Yet here you are condemning it and saying they don't deserve to be in the EU. Yet when groups of people also aren't tolerant and show terrible behavior towards women and the LGTB community, you are happy to look the other way and just say we should make an effort to help these people and educate them. Why the difference?
cosmicblizzard
Banned
Gemüsepizza;191609210 said:
Whataboutisms makes it seem like you're excusing this behavior, or at least not seeing it as important as it is. The contexts are completely different and this is not a regular NYE phenomenon. Hell, I'm sure some could make the argument that Oktoberfest cases would increase by a good percentage given the same situation.
MisterFalcon
Member
Gemüsepizza;191609210 said:
http://www.spiegel.de/international...-million-liters-of-beer-in-2013-a-926432.html
That's with 6.4 million visitors. There were also 449 cases of assault, mostly brawls between men, nothing even remotely like the organized violence aimed specifically at women seen at NYE.
It's the new 'violence against abortion doctors is just like ISIS' where numbers don't count.
gutter_trash
Banned
they should have not admitted so many single males.
They should have concentrating only on accepting families, single moms with children, single women, and orphaned children should have been the norm.
Single men are too much gamble to deal with.
They should have concentrating only on accepting families, single moms with children, single women, and orphaned children should have been the norm.
Single men are too much gamble to deal with.
It should, his game is being a populist, if they're out of the EU that's one less thing to complain about and it's not exactly like his domestic policies are a catalyst for progress, economic or social.
I find it problematic how eager people are to jump to conclusions, which does not serve anyone. I would consider this a general problem (and I am certainly guilt of this as well).
Hopefully an analysis of events will lead to the answers we are looking for. What I find downright disgusting, with all due respect, is when people attempt to use these events to further their agenda or justify their worldviews. When politicians stand there and use these events to declare their big plans. On the other hand, just to be clear about this, downplaying the events or handwaving is not acceptable in any way either.
Yup. Canada is doing what Merkel should have done: women, children, and families given priority status.
entremet
Member
Very strange how any middle ground proposal and you're considered a bigot.
I'm pro taking in refugees, but Germany's plan or lack thereof was incredibly flawed.
Since most of the refugees traveled by foot, you were gonna have skewed demographics.
You also can't integrate 1 million people, who could barely speak the language and thus unemployable, so quickly.
It's not so much that it's single men, it's the proportion of them. That's asking for trouble.
ClosingADoor
Member
Something that has been said time and time again by moderates in this discussion, but in order to do this you must close borders and sent people away until it is clear they need to go through the right process. That is unfortunate of course, but the best way to deal with this.
First of all, as I have elaborated (in this very thread), the intent of the mayor was clearly not to blame the victims and I think you would be hard pressed to come to that conclusion after the conference, no matter how dumb the whole "arm's length" comment was.
That said, police serve a function in state and there will certainly have to be an investigation about the events on NYE and how e.g. this statement was published on 01/01/16. I would argue that there is certainly at least some indication (e.g. the press releases compared to internal reports) that there may have been some form of mismanagement or mistake.
I suppose it's a lot easier to put requirements on your refugees, like what Canada and the UK wants to do, when you have large bodies of water between you and them.
Germany basically had them on their doorstep and made a call - whether that was the right call is up in the air.
I didn't mean this as a condemnation of all foreigners, but I think it's pretty clear that we need to pay special attention to views on women etc.
What I got from Gemüsepizza's post was basically that everyone else is just as sexist and thus we don't need any extra effort on those issues when integrating refugees.
Weird how the WPFI evolved the years you are complaining about.
And yes, you're whataboutism totally negates laws of the purest fascist tradition, and that's totally not the reason EU is complaining and think they are authoritarian extremists.
Germany had them on their door step because they opened the door and put up a big welcome sign.
they encouraged mass immigration and people smuggling. You could see the problems coming a mile off. but hey, TIME person of the year! good job.
I found Gemüse's comparison to Oktoberfest a bit too simple. I'm sure his intention wasn't to downplay the events, since he referenced the potential lack of police that night in Cologne, but people have done that. Those interested (and fluent in German) might look e.g. at this German blog post about how such comparisons are inappropriate.
I didn't mean to imply anything regarding you, I'm sorry if I gave that impression.
gutter_trash
Banned
yup, they did so against the wishes of other European countries because Germany always has to decide everything for the rest of the EU undemocraticly.
The Great Leader Janša will won next election, do not worry about that, and that would mean that we would soon be on the edge of leaving EU
Team Alucard
Banned
Do you find it equally disgusting when the left stirs up gun control debates following mass shootings?
gutter_trash
Banned
you are mixing US politics with European politics which is a very lazy thing to do
The Right in the US have worse reactions from the US left when mass shootings happen because the Far Right nutters buy more guns in record numbers in reaction to mass shootings
I'm a Centrist by the way
There's really no way to defend this. If the press is against the ruling party, this is too bad for the ruling party, but nothing they should be able to change.
I completely agree Merkel's comments exacerbated the problem, but there was an ongoing European migrant crisis before that because of massive EU incompetence in setting up, managing and protecting refugee camps on the borders of war zones.
Which is why I said continental Europe never really had the luxury of plucking refugee families from Syria (like Canada, and us in the UK), because there were already massive waves of migrants wondering across Europe's open borders that had to end up somewhere.
The logistics of kicking out people already accepted won't work out well, unfortunately.
In their culture, women are just objects are property and don't deserve any autonomy. Excepting hundreds of thousands of single men with that perspective is asking for trouble. And everyone saw this coming from a million miles away.
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