Support NeoGAF

[Shredderi]

2 Syrian brothers killed their pregnant sister. One of them still lived in a refugee center.

http://www.faz.net/aktuell/gesellsc...ich-von-ihren-bruedern-getoetet-14004631.html

Many bad headlines this week. The innocent refugees will suffer because of it.

And that was their own fucking sister. Imagine what they could do to people who aren't family.

 

[Nivash]

I think there's truth to that. It's clear the people who participated in this incident and similar ones across Europe don't care about attempting to integrate or being grateful for being allowed in. This is evidenced by the brazen nature of the attacks - you have to be pretty bold to attack a 15 year old girl in front of her father. You just don't do things like this if you care about becoming a well integrated citizen. These type of men have nothing to lose - it's all about personal satisfaction no matter who suffers in the process. It's the same kind of attitude that powers people behind recent terrorist attacks.
Even if these guys end up getting thrown in jail, they'll probably end up becoming radicalised.The point is such people had no intention of being a good citizen in the first place. Europe has been a soft touch and people like these men are taking advantage of it to the point where it's affecting security and social cohesion.
Europe will go downhill in my opinion.The middle east is an area that needs dictators to keep things in check. The West should have kept it's nose out.

There will always be people trying to take advantage of law abiding citizen in any group. If there didn't, there would be places where crime wouldn't exist. That's why we have laws and law enforcement. Extrapolating the behaviour of these people to a much larger, perfectly innocent group purely based on shared ethnicity is a massive mistake. Why do I even need to explain this? I'm not even sure how to start tackling the suggestion that people from the Middle East are somehow inherently incapable of living in an open society beyond the facts that 1) this is clearly not true if you look at the vast majority of said people currently living in open societies right now and 2) this is the exact same argument, word for word, that was used for keeping African Americans in slavery.

 

[Mrmartel]

Are you seriously presenting this as some kind of novel theory? It's one of the oldest anti-foreigner narratives in history. "They hate us for our freedom" is a variation of it. It's been used against every out-group imaginable, from former slaves to Jews. I wouldn't be surprised if the ancient Greeks used it when talking about their "barbarian" neighbors. It's an age old prejudice because it's born out of a fear of being taken advantage of and a lack of understanding of the other group, which leads to assumptions that they're somehow brutish and less refined. It's not even restricted to immigrants, it's been a key facet of war propaganda - hell, it's still brought up in discussions about how supposedly spoiled NATO soldiers would lose a fight to supposedly not hardened Russians or Chinese. It's even used for internal politics and is a classic argument among conservatives who want to suggest that our culture has become decadent and that foreigners will destroy us unless we "purify" ourselves (typically by oppressing minorities).

Saying that X culture is hard and only respect strength and power is almost a stereotype of an idea and it's been used and abused to death, in many cases literally. And I can only assume that you've never so much as talked to an immigrant from the Middle East if that's your idea of people from there, especially refugees. Look at Syria - the kind of people with those types of ideas are the ones that joined ISIS, Al Nusra or Assad's torture squads. The people fleeing to Europe and elsewhere want to get away from that kind of environment.

I'm sorry if I come off as harsh, but you have to be hopelessly naive to not have encountered this narrative before and to be honest I doubt that's actually the case, it's more likely that you've absorbed it without knowing it. Especially since you consciously or not ended on vaguely alluding to a future race war, another age old narrative. I'm not exaggerating when I say that I've read versions of your post - structure and all - hundreds of times before, but I think this might actually be the first time I've seen someone present it as a new idea.

That could very well be.

I'm not advocating anything, more like I'm trying to see a logical (?) end point to this crisis. Whether its good or bad, one which you seem to think is bad (*edit bad, as in the questions in my post were bad). I would also add that assertiveness does not need to be violent or forceful, like mass deportations. But simply asserting European values, hardening laws, reducing migration, much stronger integration policies that are spread over a longer period with a smaller pool of incoming migrants, eliminating or reducing certain benefits. I freely admit though, that some policies could be a fine line that could easily be crossed into the dark side. Ultimately, I just want someone to talk about these issues and figure them out, aside from the ever expanding and more radical individuals that seem to be the only ones talking and offering solutions (even if they are disgusting solutions)

Unlike most people on this board, I think the hyperbolic statements made of current right wing parties in Europe, are mostly fearmongering. It can get much worse. Think of the most "extreme" party in the current EU and times by ten if you want to see a true return of something that looks like WW2 Nazi's. But I feel like that is what it's building up too (over decades of course). This is part of the question I posted, about how far could that "assertiveness" go.

 

[Madness]

There will always be people trying to take advantage of law abiding citizen in any group. If there didn't, there would be places where crime wouldn't exist. That's why we have laws and law enforcement. Extrapolating the behaviour of these people to a much larger, perfectly innocent group purely based on shared ethnicity is a massive mistake. Why do I even need to explain this? I'm not even sure how to start tackling the suggestion that people from the Middle East are somehow inherently incapable of living in an open society beyond the facts that 1) this is clearly not true if you look at the vast majority of said people currently living in open societies right now and 2) this is the exact same argument, word for word, that was used for keeping African Americans in slavery.

Even in a thread about migrant rapes in Germany, people have to drag in African-American/black people and talk about slavery. You can make your point without doing that. Natural's Law in effect again.

Also, why wouldn't they extrapolate the behaviors of the few to the many? That's human history as well. Do you honestly think the vast majority of these migrants aren't coming from countries where women's rights are severely repressed? I'm not saying the vast majority are criminals, nor will the vast majority commit these kinds of crime. But you're definitely going to see a clash of cultures as up to 1 million migrants who are uneducated, don't understand the rules, languages, norms of the country struggle to adapt. It's why ethnic slums get created.

 

[Nivash]

That could very well be.

I'm not advocating anything, more like I'm trying to see a logical (?) end point to this crisis. Whether its good or bad, one which you seem to think is bad. I would also add that assertiveness does not need to be violent or forceful, like mass deportations. But simply asserting European values, hardening laws, reducing migration, much stronger integration policies that are spread over a longer period with a smaller pool on incoming migrants, eliminating or reducing certain benefits. I freely admit though, that some policies could be a fine line that could easily be crossed into the dark side. Ultimately, I just want someone to talk about these issues and figure them out, aside from ever expanding and more radical individuals.

Unlike most people on this board, I think the hyperbolic statements made of current right wing parties in Europe, are mostly fearmongering. It can get much worse. Think of the most "extreme" party in the current EU and times by ten if you want to see a true return of something that looks like the past Nazi's. But I feel like that is what it's building up too (over decades of course). This is part of the question I posed as how far could that "assertiveness" could go.

Putting aside enforcing European values, which can mean a lot of things, I don't see hardening laws, reduced migration and elimination of benefits as good things either. At best they should be considered lesser evils. Hardening laws has a proven effect of being contra-productive to rehablitiation and being ostracising, as we can see in the US, for instance, especially with the War on Drugs (I'm European for the record, but it's a good example). Fewer immigrants will mean more refugees stuck in camps in countries that can't possibly care for all of them, like Lebanon that now has more refugees than Lebanese. This will hurt people who have a genuine need of sanctuary. Reducing benefits will obviously hurt the people who need them - the people who were the reason we instated these benefits in the first place. And that's the unavoidable effects, let alone the dark side you mentioned, the one we'll reach if we start implementing such measures discriminatingly (something that's already underway in many countries).

I agree that the current far right in Europe appears tempered and busy with fearmongering on the outside. That's because they're recruiting and can't get away with what they'd really want to do. But I've spent the better part of the last decade keeping an eye on the European far right and let me tell you, these are the kind of people who would gladly turn Nazi if they could. That's because in a lot of cases, they already are. A lot of them started their careers in Neo-Nazi organisations. Being Swedish I've kept a particular eye on the Sweden Democrats and their supporters. These days they look downright respectable, all trimmed and dressed in tailored suits. But 20 years ago - when the current leadership joined - they were still marching in SS uniforms. After the time I've spent on their blogs and their forums, engaging with them, I don't believe for a second that they've changed. Oh no, the people I've encountered are more likely to long for a future race war than fear it. I wouldn't say they need decades either, it took the actually Nazis less than 10 years to move from being imprisoned for treason to basically commanding all of Germany. When the environment is right, movements like these grow explosively. Suffice to say, I'm extremely concerned for the future of Europe based on this. I more or less expect a new Berlin Wall to run across southern Europe in a few decades, complete with land mines and machine guns, based on current developments - but it could also get much, much worse.

But back to solutions. If you ask me, I don't see any reason to make dramatic changes. Of course there's going to be some early turmoil but that's to be expected in the worst refugee crisis since WWII. Some people with ill intent will sneak in, others will be psychologically damaged and cause trouble because of that. But the vast majority of people are not like them. They just want to start over, to get on with their lives. Of course, to deal with the problems like what happened in Köln we need to actually give police forces and other services the resources they need, it's as absurd to ignore that there will be troublemakers as there is to claim that they're all damaged goods. Laws must be enforced. In other areas, we need to increase funding for essentials such as health care and housing - this should be obvious, more people means more costs. But I'm starting to think that I'm the naive one, and that Europe in general is more likely to start gunning down refugees and sinking boats than even risk a small decrease in our material standards. The complete clusterfuck that has been our response would suggest that. So who the hell knows what the right thing to do is. Sure, we could enforce our borders (which would probably require the New Berlin Wall I mentioned) and cling on to the status quo with the old, far too small quotas. But that would come at the cost of thousands of lives in refugees that have nowhere left to turn (because the rest of the world would likely follow suit too) and be a severe infringement on human rights. Not to mention that it would almost certainly embolden the far right parties, who would now turn their eye to getting rid of the people who are already here.

Even in a thread about migrant rapes in Germany, people have to drag in African-American/black people and talk about slavery. You can make your point without doing that. Natural's Law in effect again.

Also, why wouldn't they extrapolate the behaviors of the few to the many? That's human history as well. Do you honestly think the vast majority of these migrants aren't coming from countries where women's rights are severely repressed? I'm not saying the vast majority are criminals, nor will the vast majority commit these kinds of crime. But you're definitely going to see a clash of cultures as up to 1 million migrants who are uneducated, don't understand the rules, languages, norms of the country struggle to adapt. It's why ethnic slums get created.

If someone is going to use such an old and tired argument as suggesting that some ethnicities are too primitive for an open society (which claiming that the Middle East can only be ruled by dictators very much is) than I think it perfectly apt to point out just how old it is and the context in which it has been used before.

As for extrapolation, ever heard why generalisation is a bad idea? Because it oversimplifies things to a dangerous extent. This is especially true when you take the acts of a tiny minority of criminals and extend to a much larger group based on nothing but ethnicity (and vague allusions to culture, as if the entire Middle East and other places where the refugees come from share the same monolithic culture). Are you seriously going to argue that it's a good idea? A clash of cultures is of course unavoidable but the alternative, leaving these people to die or to waste away in overcrowded refugee camps, is far worse. As for your slums, you might want to look up the history of why they were created. Generally speaking it has nothing to do with culture clash - it has everything to do with the minority living in them not being allowed to live anywhere else, either overtly or through mechanisms such as not being able to afford any other place to live, or waiting lines that basically need you to start waiting in them for years to get an apartment in a nicer area (this is not an exaggeration, the average in Stockholm is 3-6 years for any apartment, longer for the more attractive ones - this is why almost all recent immigrants live in suburbs)

EDIT: And now I've done what I told myself to stop doing a few pages back; dragged the thread off topic by discussing the crisis in general. And with a wall of text too. I really can't seem to be able to help myself, guess it's time for another break from the subject.

 

[Hawaiian Punch]

However illiberal it may seem, those responsible should be deported.

 

[Rentahamster]

I also really worry about the safety of female and children refugees in those camps. But since these come from countries where speaking up against abuse is very shameful and discouraged, who knows what they are going through.

One account:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/09/29/women-german-refugee-camps-safety_n_8215724.html

 

[RubberJohnny]

Earlier in this thread it was linked that the tip off to police about refugees going into town to assault people was either wrong or greatly exaggerated.

Yes, and I debunked that.

But you didn't post about the tip-off, you posted about the 1,000 attackers being "debunked", even though every news story says they showed up and were contained.

 

[diamount]

And that was their own fucking sister. Imagine what they could do to people who aren't family.

Honour killings don't generally happen to non-family.

 

[Sioen]

Love all the fear mongering here against the right, typical gaf. However it is clear that most Europeans want a stronger Europe and this can only be done with right parties instead of this pathetic left who is pretty much destroying everything we once held dear like equal rights.

 

[Endorphineforeverybody]

Also, I don't want to sound too mean but 56 year old women are not exactly these guys' preferred prey...

Same as my mother told me, she is safe because to old (60). I reminded her of this story :

http://m.diepresse.com/home/panorama/oesterreich/4870862/index.do

72 year old victim, raped by a 17 year old Afghani.

Btw. He confessed the crime

 

[Darth Ghandi]

Speaking as a feminist I say that patriarchal violence is always patriarchal violence and must be confronted and stopped.

I see this as a tie in to debates had regarding the oppression of minority women.
There you can easily read many (mostly white) journalists champion the poor brown womans cause claiming that feminists (same thing as in this thread) are ignoring issues in the minority community cause of reasons.
The reality is that there are TONS of groups that work with the issues but that many rightwingers are just ignorant of them

Many are trying to make this into a cultural/heritage issue and I don't agree with that.
This a symptom of patriarchy. It is about MEN first and foremost.
I see a huge problem IRL and even this thread how people are using the past awful events to further xenophobic and islamophobic agenda.
The reason I find the rightwing rhetoric bad is that they have very little information just like the people I previous mentioned.

 

[Kathian]

However illiberal it may seem, those responsible should be deported.

Why do people keep saying this stuff? How is it illeberal to deport dangerous individuals? Is there no care in society for the women involved here? Should they not be free without the terror of these assaults?

 

[More Fun To Compute]

Love all the fear mongering here against the right, typical gaf. However it is clear that most Europeans want a stronger Europe and this can only be done with right parties instead of this pathetic left who is pretty much destroying everything we once held dear like equal rights.

Europe is largely ruled by right wing governments what are you even talking about. Are you trying to say that far right nutjobs are the real normal right wing parties or something.

 

[MisterFalcon]

Why do people keep saying this stuff? How is it illeberal to deport dangerous individuals? Is there no care in society for the women involved here? Should they not be free without the terror of these assaults?

You'll get thirty top lawyers who will argue passionately how their client is just an innocent bystander and that stolen phone in his pocket was found by the road and he was about to return it to the owner. With no confessions or testimony against others (any confession is a huge loss of honor) you end up with enough confusion over who did what exactly to who and a bunch of minor offenses not sufficient to be deported for. Even if you could deport anyone back to Syria which is against all sorts of human rights treaties.

 

[Tacitus_]

Many are trying to make this into a cultural/heritage issue and I don't agree with that.
This a symptom of patriarchy. It is about MEN first and foremost.

OK. Here's a quote from an Iraqi woman who is seeking asylum in Finland

I can decide by myself what to wear and whether to cover my head or not. I can decide what to do with my life. In Iraq, the culture would decide for me.
---
You cannot compare the life of an Iraqi woman to a Finnish woman. [In Finland] a woman has power. She has rights and opinions. She can do whatever she wants

How can you say that their culture is not in the center of all this?

Why do people keep saying this stuff? How is it illeberal to deport dangerous individuals? Is there no care in society for the women involved here? Should they not be free without the terror of these assaults?

You can't deport a refugee with a valid claim as it would be pretty much a death sentence.

 

[Darth Ghandi]

OK. Here's a quote from an Iraqi woman who is seeking asylum in Finland

How can you say that their culture is not in the center of all this?


You can't deport a refugee with a valid claim as it would be pretty much a death sentence.

The common denominator is always men and patriarchy regardless of the culture.

 

[Chittagong]

The common denominator is always men and patriarchy regardless of the culture.

I guess that Iraq woman is mistaken then

No, seriously I don't understand what you are even trying to argue? Of course it's cultural, Finland and Iraq both have men, but different cultures.

 

[Majine]

German Chancellor Angela Merkel has proposed changes to make it easier to deport asylum-seekers who commit crimes, after the New Year's Eve sex attacks on women in Cologne.
The attacks, which victims say were carried out by men of North African and Arab appearance, have called into question her open-door migrant policy.
The police's handling of the events has also been sharply criticised.
The anti-immigrant Pegida movement is due to protest in the city.
Mrs Merkel, speaking after a meeting of her party leadership in Mainz, proposed excluding the right of asylum for those who have committed crimes, including those given probation.
"When crimes are committed, and people place themselves outside the law...there must be consequences," she told reporters after the meeting.
The move, which will still need parliamentary approval, follows the New Year's Eve attacks, which sparked outrage in Germany.
Victims described chaos as dozens of sexual assaults and robberies were carried out with little apparent response from the authorities around the city's main station.
Twenty-one people are being investigated for sexual assault.

Link

 

[Trident]

The common denominator is always men and patriarchy regardless of the culture.

The patriarchy is part of culture, and some cultures have more patriarchal elements than others.

 

[Into]

Why do people keep saying this stuff? How is it illeberal to deport dangerous individuals? Is there no care in society for the women involved here? Should they not be free without the terror of these assaults?

With identity politics, the care for women is a case by case basis, sadly. And in this case, the response has been tepid at best, non existent at worst.

Anyone who acts confused about any of this is simply being willfully obtuse. We all know why, we are just dancing around it.

EDIT: As for Henriette Reker, her political career can survive being called "anti women", but her political career cannot survive being called a racist, in Germany especially. That is the climate in Germany.

 

[Guerrillas in the Mist]

The common denominator is always men and patriarchy regardless of the culture.

I don't entirely disagree with you, but I find this to be a tad reductivist. You're glossing over vast cultural differences, even if most cultures are still inherently patriarchical (to differing extents).

 

[waveuponwave]

The common denominator is always men and patriarchy regardless of the culture.

This. Patriarchal structures are stronger in the Middle East, than they are in the Western World today, that much is true. But the advancements in LGBT or women's rights are still relatively recent in the West, too.

Gay sex was illegal in Germany until 1969

Marital rape is only punishable since 1997 (!) in Germany

In Switzerland women have only been allowed to vote since 1971

Just a few examples. I admit there's a problem with so many people coming here form less liberal countries, often theocracies that strictly enforce their patriarchal values. But the liberal rights many see endangered now are not inherently European. They had to be fought for in a long struggle against the same patriarchal structures.

 

[Endorphineforeverybody]

The common denominator is always men and patriarchy regardless of the culture.

OF course it is, it's the word itself, but it's not true that it is the same in every country. If you write that you mock a lot of women from the middle east, parts of Asia, Africa. It is a cultural thing or should I say religious. Can't believe I have to write this to a feminist (like you called yourself)

Btw. there are also matriarchy countries on this planet.

 

[Darth Ghandi]

I guess that Iraq woman is mistaken then

No, seriously I don't understand what you are even trying to argue? Of course it's cultural, Finland and Iraq both have men, but different cultures.

Just cause patriarchal oppression is different in various countries doesn't mean that it stems from something other then patriarchy.

My point being, is that people use this as a reason why we should not allow people fleeing war into our borders.
My point is that people have recognized this as a problem and work WITH the oppressed groups to solve it, but people willingly ignore that fact to promote xenofobia.
My point is that it is THE OPPRESSED GROUPS that should define their struggle and we should support them.
I'm a intersectional feminist and I believe that there are many power structures that govern us.
For me and many others, these things are connected.

 

[RELAYER]

Just cause patriarchal oppression is different in various countries doesn't mean that it stems from something other then patriarchy.

My point being, is that people use this as a reason why we should not allow people fleeing war into our borders.
My point is that people have recognized this as a problem and work WITH the oppressed groups to solve it, but people willingly ignore that fact to promote xenofobia.
My point is that it is THE OPPRESSED GROUPS that should define their struggle and we should support them.
I'm a intersectional feminist and I believe that there are many power structures that govern us.
For me and many others, these things are connected.

So patriarchy is the problem and the solution is to add concentrated patriarchy.

 

[Darth Ghandi]

The patriarchy is part of culture, and some cultures have more patriarchal elements than others.

My problem with people talking culture is that they see it as something fixed.
But if people talked about opposing patriarcal oppression I (together with many other feminists) would be happier.

 

[Thornquist]

This is the beginning of what will become a big problem going forward in Europe.
I dont think there is anything that will stop the immigration issues going forward. The Middle-eastern countries will continue to be unstable and poor for atleast another century - and more and more will try to flock to the west in search for a better life.

Walls will be buildt to keep them from coming to the west, and the left should realize that instead of forcing people to vote to the far-right to get the job done. The truth is we cant expect this demographic to integrate well into western society (Adult males from Islamic countries), and we should avoid letting them come here.

My suggestion would be to allow mostly just women and children to come for help. I think there is truth in the sentiment that grown men should stay and fight for their country.

 

[Darth Ghandi]

So patriarchy is the problem and the solution is to add concentrated patriarchy.

Nope, never said that. Please read my posts.
The groups I'm talking about foremost are women groups.

 

[Darth Ghandi]

This is the beginning of what will become a big problem going forward in Europe.
I dont think there is anything that will stop the immigration issues going forward. The Middle-eastern countries will continue to be unstable and poor for atleast another century - and more and more will try to flock to the west in search for a better life.

Walls will be buildt to keep them coming to the west, and the left should realize that instead of forcing people to vote to the far-right to get the job done. The truth is we cant expect this demographic to integrate well into western society (Adult males from Islamic countries), and we should avoid letting them come here.

My suggestion would be to allow mostly just women and children to come for help. I think there is truth in the sentiment that grown men should stay and fight for their country.

Well if the west doesn't want huge waves people fleeing wars perhaps we could STOP invading the region and thus destabilizing it?
We have invaded countries on false grounds and then turn around and tell the people of the counties we ruined "sorry, but you can't be integrated cause you are a dude".
This is just disgusting.
And this crap about "adult males" again. You are aware that the EUs dublin act is why they must walk and/or rely on smugglers to get them in?
The journey is thus perilous and that is why you se mostly men.

 

[Forsete]

So it seems there was mass harrasment on young women during a big festival in Stockholm back in August.

This was never reported by media as far as I know, but today Dagens Nyheter writes about it.

http://www.dn.se/nyheter/varlden/kvinnors-ratt-att-festa-sakert-kan-inte-offras/

That groups of men encircling and attacking women has previously been observed in countries including India, the Gulf States and Egypt. Explanations have been sought in sexual frustration, structural oppression of women and religious and cultural rites punishment. During the popular uprisings in Tahrir Square in Cairo in 2011 and 2013 were frightened female participants away through rape and other abuses.

In these cases, condemnations come quickly. When the same phenomenon is now occurring in Europe, we seem to be more difficult to assess the severity. The first Swedish news reports from Cologne took five days and in the case Kalmar further. Both police press communicators and the media have reacted hesitant, as if no one really trusted the women's stories.

Similarly, it was in August last year. As was held Europe's largest youth festival "We are Sthlm" in the Royal Garden. In the audience in front of the stage, where stars like Zara Larsson appeared, large gangs of boys night after night pressed themselves against young girls and tuck their hands inside the shirts and pants.

Police officers and stewards strategy was that as quickly as possible to remove the perpetrators under the Police Act thirteenth article, which focuses on the disturbances, and only during the single night removed some 90 young men. To set up notifications and initiate criminal investigations had come second. According to DN experience has not even yet been sentenced.

One of the police officers who participated in the operation, and had to spend a lot of time on supporting the affected girls, said that the matter was regarded as sensitive. The guys that were sent were assessed namely be largely unaccompanied minors [refugees].

 

[hohoXD123]

This is the beginning of what will become a big problem going forward in Europe.
I dont think there is anything that will stop the immigration issues going forward. The Middle-eastern countries will continue to be unstable and poor for atleast another century - and more and more will try to flock to the west in search for a better life.

Walls will be buildt to keep them from coming to the west, and the left should realize that instead of forcing people to vote to the far-right to get the job done. The truth is we cant expect this demographic to integrate well into western society (Adult males from Islamic countries), and we should avoid letting them come here.

My suggestion would be to allow mostly just women and children to come for help. I think there is truth in the sentiment that grown men should stay and fight for their country.

Bit of a silly suggestion to promote the breaking up of families which won't even achieve what you want it to achieve. What are you defining as a child? Younger than 18? They can easily still hold misogynistic beliefs which won't go away, the women themselves can still hold the belief that western women who don't cover up are prostitutes and deserving of sexual abuse. You talk of adult males from Islamic countries not integrating well when there's no evidence of anything more than a small minority doing this shit, why should hundreds of thousands of them be left to die and abandon their families because of this small group? Do you believe that overall, male refugees from Islamic countries in the past have been more of a burden on society than a benefit? Do you also think this is a problem exclusive to Islamic countries? Attitudes to women and sexual assault is still a problem in places like India, and there are still 11 rapes being committed an hour in the UK.

 

[CoolOff]

The Swedish media heel turn is a sight to behold. Never before have opinions shifted so quickly among so many outlets. Several newspapers are now trying to "blame" the Green Party, swearing themselves free of any wrongdoings in poor journalism or coverage.

"The hippie made me do it."

 

[SolidusDave]

Link

I'm not sure how that should work, you simply can't ship people back into warzones. Sounds like fluff.

Even if, honestly that's just reactionary measures for the very few war refugees that are sentenced for crimes (and groping isn't even going to cut it I would bet).
The key elements are still the faster deportation of economic refugees (currently it's ~half a year until they get their asylum request inevitable denied + x amount of time until they are actually forcibly removed or go freely) and "aggressive" integration programs.

It's one thing to filter out a few criminals within the first two years but long-term a successful integration is much more important to reduce crime, poverty and radicalization. You want to avoid any form of ghetto or separation at all cost. This is very hard, even if you basically force them into our more liberal culture, we have seen that the following generations can get more conservative again because they are looking for their cultural identity in their ancestry/country.

 

[Forsete]

The Swedish media heel turn is a sight to behold. Never before have opinions shifted so quickly among so many outlets. Several newspapers are now trying to "blame" the Green Party, swearing themselves free of any wrongdoings in poor journalism or coverage.

"The hippie made me do it."

What? Where?
A majority of the journalists are green party sympathizers, why would they blame GP?

 

[nib95]

Love all the fear mongering here against the right, typical gaf. However it is clear that most Europeans want a stronger Europe and this can only be done with right parties instead of this pathetic left who is pretty much destroying everything we once held dear like equal rights.

You're out of your damn mind if you think right wing or conservative policies are the ones that favour equality over leftist ones. In every country in the world, it's usually right wing policies that promote or tend to favour inequality of rights, including in some of these countries immigrants come from.

 

[Darth Ghandi]

The Swedish media heel turn is a sight to behold. Never before have opinions shifted so quickly among so many outlets. Several newspapers are now trying to "blame" the Green Party, swearing themselves free of any wrongdoings in poor journalism or coverage.

"The hippie made me do it."

What?

 

[ClosingADoor]

Yes, and I debunked that.

But you didn't post about the tip-off, you posted about the 1,000 attackers being "debunked", even though every news story says they showed up and were contained.

Yeah, it seems things did go bad and police was needed to contain it. Don't know what the whole tip off thing was about then, if the situation happened anyway.

And with the same kind of thing now being reported about in Stockholm, it seems that more countries then Germany will have their hands full with these crimes. Terrible stuff and I hope police and politicians at least can finally make up plans to deal with this.

This. Patriarchal structures are stronger in the Middle East, than they are in the Western World today, that much is true. But the advancements in LGBT or women's rights are still relatively recent in the West, too.

Gay sex was illegal in Germany until 1969

Marital rape is only punishable since 1997 (!) in Germany

In Switzerland women have only been allowed to vote since 1971

Just a few examples. I admit there's a problem with so many people coming here form less liberal countries, often theocracies that strictly enforce their patriarchal values. But the liberal rights many see endangered now are not inherently European. They had to be fought for in a long struggle against the same patriarchal structures.

It is recent and a lot of countries are still going through that fight, even in the EU. But where does things are in place now, I don't want to make those people go through the same fight again and society to go backwards.

 

[Thornquist]

Bit of a silly suggestion to promote the breaking up of families which won't even achieve what you want it to achieve. What are you defining as a child? Younger than 18? They can easily still hold misogynistic beliefs which won't go away, the women themselves can still hold the belief that western women who don't cover up are prostitutes and deserving of sexual abuse. You talk of adult males from Islamic countries not integrating well when there's no evidence of anything more than a small minority doing this shit, why should hundreds of thousands of them be left to die and abandon their families because of this small group? Do you believe that overall, male refugees from Islamic countries in the past have been more of a burden on society than a benefit?

Refugees will always be a burden on society, so its always a question of how much we should tolerate. And you have to admit that its strange that a sizeable majority of these refugees seem to be adult males. They seem to have no problem abandoning their families to come here.

Well if the west doesn't want huge waves people fleeing wars perhaps we could STOP invading the region and thus destabilizing it?
We have invaded countries on false grounds and then turn around and tell the people of the counties we ruined "sorry, but you can't be integrated cause you are a dude".
This is just disgusting.

Im sorry, but are you suggesting that we are responsible for the war in Syria now?
Im not going to argue the tinfoil-hat theory that "the West" is responsible for all the wars, poverty and generall shit in the Middle East. Sure we are guilty of some things, but this rhetoric is still just a scapegoat to something that goes much deeper.
And at the end of the day, its up to the countries themselves to pull themselves up to western standards (if thats what they want).

Anyway, I just try to see this from a bigger picture. This will not stop with Syria. Things like this the New Year assaults will happen again.
Immigration will be a hot-topic for atleast another 100 years. And sadly, the walls will be buildt to keep them out.

 

[Metrotab]

This will probably be a turning point for the immigration debate in European politics. People are afraid, people are angry and I don't see economic pressure on Europe ceasing this year. That's not an environment where left-wing discourse tends to flourish in.

 

[CoolOff]

What? Where?
A majority of the journalists are green party sympathizers, why would they blame GP?

What?

www.expressen.se/ledare/8-skal-att-tiga-mps-sprakror/

www.dn.se/ledare/huvudledare/mp-som-i-maktpartiet/

www.sydsvenskan.se/opinion/huvudledare/ge-miljopartiet-mer-stryk-de-grona-verkar-taliga/

 

[Nervous Sausage]

Well if the west doesn't want huge waves people fleeing wars perhaps we could STOP invading the region and thus destabilizing it?
We have invaded countries on false grounds and then turn around and tell the people of the counties we ruined "sorry, but you can't be integrated cause you are a dude".
This is just disgusting.
And this crap about "adult males" again. You are aware that the EUs dublin act is why they must walk and/or rely on smugglers to get them in?
The journey is thus perilous and that is why you se mostly men.

You used the word "Islamophobia" in a previous post and that's a word I'd like to see die. It's implication suggests that there exists an irrational fear of Islam and anyone who feels this way is simply being intolerant of those different people they don't understand. I reject this vehemently. If I speak out against Islam, I'm not being Islamophobic or intolerant, I'm simply seeing Islam for what it is; a set of bad ideas and a breeding ground for hate and intolerance. It's ironic that you consider yourself a feminist yet seem to be so willing to defend a doctrine that would sooner silence you entirely.

As for the point you raised here, it seems to be a popular narrative on the left (to which I consider myself a part of) to think if there's instability in the Middle East then it must be our fault. It's because of the West's colonialism, the imposing of our will, the fact that we've set up borders all over the Middle East and have erected dictators. It's true that Syria's borders were erected by Europeans in the 1920's by mixing different ethnic and religious groups, and these events may have eventually led to the dictatorship that has resulted in the civil war that's been forcing all of these Syrian immigrants away now. Despite this, I don't think Europe has any obligation to take in millions of Syrian (among other) refugees for something that may have partially resulted from their input a hundred years ago (and there's no way to tell it wouldn't have happened anyway).

While parts of Europe are struggling to bare the load of taking in far too many refugees far too soon to be assimilated properly, with cultural and value systems much too different from their own, Syria's close neighbor Saudi Arabia has 100,000 air conditioned tents outfitted with kitchens and bathrooms that go completely unused for the vast majority of the year that could house up to 3 million Syrian refugees and how many have they taken in while much of Europe is literally buckling under the pressure? Zero. They've refused to take a single refugee. Oh but they've offered to build 200 mosques in Germany for those refugees so we're all good then.

 

[ClosingADoor]

This will probably be a turning point for the immigration debate in European politics. People are afraid, people are angry and I don't see economic pressure on Europe ceasing this year. That's not an environment where left-wing discourse tends to flourish in.

That's more because the left doesn't have an answer towards these problems beside just waiting it out and hoping things will suddenly become better and people will integrate, despite already having seen for decades that it doesn't work that way.

Edit: Charges filed in Cologne up to 170. Hamburg at 108. Frankfurt and Stuttgart also saw a lot of charges filed, but I see no exact number. http://nos.nl/artikel/2079487-aanta...tijgt-politie-en-politici-komen-in-actie.html

 

[Moonstar]

That's more because the left doesn't have an answer towards these problems beside just waiting it out and hoping things will suddenly become better and people will integrate, despite already having seen for decades that it doesn't work that way.

That's exactly my problem. I always wonder "Where do you take your optimism from?? Look at the crime stats, look at German inner cities."

Merkel herself admitted, multiculturalism has failed in Germany, so the solution is to take in millions more with less money available for education, housing, police and social workers and things will be just peachy? I just don't understand it.

 

[Roude Leiw]

15 year old syrian refugee caught after robbing, armed with a kife, and trying to molest 3 women (between 46 and 56 years old) in a forrest.

http://www.augsburger-allgemeine.de...n-muss-15-Jaehriger-in-U-Haft-id36529382.html

I dont get it, you escape a warzone, are safe in Germany and then you do this kind of shit.

 

[hohoXD123]

Refugees will always be a burden on society, so its always a question of how much we should tolerate. And you have to admit that its strange that a sizeable majority of these refugees seem to be adult males. They seem to have no problem abandoning their families to come here.

You state that as though it is a fact, what do you say to this article then? I wouldn't say it's strange, especially when the journey can result in drowned little boys washing ashore on Turkish beaches. A lot of them make the journey first to secure safer passage for their family, my father did the exact same thing decades ago even so I hope you'll understand why I think you're a bit of a dick for thinking they don't care about their families and are fine with abandoning them.

 

[Darth Ghandi]

Refugees will always be a burden on society, so its always a question of how much we should tolerate. And you have to admit that its strange that a sizeable majority of these refugees seem to be adult males. They seem to have no problem abandoning their families to come here.


Im sorry, but are you suggesting that we are responsible for the war in Syria now?
Im not going to argue the tinfoil-hat theory that "the West" is responsible for all the wars, poverty and generall shit in the Middle East. Sure we are guilty of some things, but this rhetoric is still just a scapegoat to something that goes much deeper.
And at the end of the day, its up to the countries themselves to pull themselves up to western standards (if thats what they want).

Anyway, I just try to see this from a bigger picture. This will not stop with Syria. Things like this the New Year assaults will happen again.
Immigration will be a hot-topic for atleast another 100 years. And sadly, the walls will be buildt to keep them out.

I have explained why the majority are young males, but you choose to ignore that fact that the EU are the ones responsible for the current situation due to policies they make.

And since you can't see the correlation between the invasion of Iraq and the war i Syra perhaps Dick Cheney could help you out.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YENbElb5-xY
Or are you seriously saying that that Iraq war didn't destabilize the region?

Perhaps you could say how this is "something that goes much deeper"?

At the end of the day the west must own the fuck up to what it has done in the middle east.

You keep saying that "this will happen again" and I agree to some extent.
I agree to the extent that patriarchal oppression will continue and every man of every creed and color must take their responsibility.
We must

 

[Darth Ghandi]

I'm simply seeing Islam for what it is; a set of bad ideas and a breeding ground for hate and intolerance. It's ironic that you consider yourself a feminist yet seem to be so willing to defend a doctrine that would sooner silence you entirely.

Yeah, man. No phobia there at all.

As for the point you raised here, it seems to be a popular narrative on the left (to which I consider myself a part of) to think if there's instability in the Middle East then it must be our fault. It's because of the West's colonialism, the imposing of our will, the fact that we've set up borders all over the Middle East and have erected dictators. It's true that Syria's borders were erected by Europeans in the 1920's by mixing different ethnic and religious groups, and these events may have eventually led to the dictatorship that has resulted in the civil war that's been forcing all of these Syrian immigrants away now. Despite this, I don't think Europe has any obligation to take in millions of Syrian (among other) refugees for something that may have partially resulted from their input a hundred years ago (and there's no way to tell it wouldn't have happened anyway).

The issue does go back many centuries but I feel it is enough to look at the last 10-15 years to understand what happened in the region.

While parts of Europe are struggling to bare the load of taking in far too many refugees far too soon to be assimilated properly, with cultural and value systems much too different from their own, Syria's close neighbor Saudi Arabia has 100,000 air conditioned tents outfitted with kitchens and bathrooms that go completely unused for the vast majority of the year that could house up to 3 million Syrian refugees and how many have they taken in while much of Europe is literally buckling under the pressure? Zero. They've refused to take a single refugee. Oh but they've offered to build 200 mosques in Germany for those refugees so we're all good then.

I totally agree with that the EU has failed in distributing them more evenly.

And regarding Saudi Arabia we must remmeber that this is a totalitarian state and they fear importing the Syrian rebellion. Thus they don't take any refugees.
They are the wests greatest allys in the region and are unchallanged in whatever un humanitarian crap they are doing this week.
But again they can cause they have oil and big business in the west gets rich of them.

 

[ClosingADoor]

You state that as though it is a fact, what do you say to this article then? I wouldn't say it's strange, especially when the journey can result in drowned little boys washing ashore on Turkish beaches. A lot of them make the journey first to secure safer passage for their family, my father did the exact same thing decades ago even so I hope you'll understand why I think you're a bit of a dick for thinking they don't care about their families and are fine with abandoning them.

Something the current policy actually is responsible for. If you help people directly from refugee centers like the UK, Canada and US are doing instead of letting them make a dangerous journey you can help people better.

Yeah, man. No phobia there at all.

The issue does go back many centuries but I feel it is enough to look at the last 10-15 years to understand what happened in the region.


I totally agree with that the EU has failed in distributing them more evenly.

And regarding Saudi Arabia we must remmeber that this is a totalitarian state and they fear importing the Syrian rebellion. Thus they don't take any refugees.
They are the wests greatest allys in the region and are unchallanged in whatever un humanitarian crap they are doing this week.
But again they can cause they have oil and big business in the west gets rich of them.

We must remember nothing about Saudi Arabia except that they are doing shit when it comes to this crisis and are happy to let others deal with the mess.

And yes, Europe and the US have screwed up in the region. But at some point, where does the responsibility of the citizens there start? A lot of countries have gone through terrible things and come out better for it, some fail. That is not always the fault of others, but also of the countries themselves. Nobody is forcing Iran and Saudi Arabia to fight proxy wars at the moment, yet they are still happy to do it and have millions of people caught in the fights.

And the EU did not support the Iraq war btw. Some countries in Europe did, but that was mostly the US and UK.

 

[hohoXD123]

Something the current policy actually is responsible for. If you help people directly from refugee centers like the UK, Canada and US are doing instead of letting them make a dangerous journey you can help people better.

You mean the UK which is only accepting 20,000 refugees by 2020? Only about 12% of the 4 million displaced Syrians are in refugee camps anyway.