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Giant Bomb #22 | Drew, F*** This Tank

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A

Antiwhippy

the holder of the trombone
LurkerPrime said:
In terms of the "joke" trait, yeah it's hugely disappointing. As I recall, every character has one joke trait that is hammered into the ground by the end of the story. Y'know, meat, snrk, Teddyisms, etc. But I do think Kanji is more than that, just like the other P4 S-links. (Though I'll be more disappointed if Kanji's S-link goes nowhere.)
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But the thing is that he's reduced to nothing more than a gay punchline in the main story when those interactions happen, and it does a lot more harm to his character than teddyisms, Chie's meat or yukiko's laughter. I actually find it pretty offensive with the way the main story treats him.

Like, being told that someone is afraid to sleep in the same area as you because they are afraid that you might rape them fucking sucks, and it shouldn't be responded with "I'LL SHOW YOU I'M NOT GAY."
 
C

Curufinwe

Member
yami4ct said:
Combining his S-Link and main story, my interpretation was that he was never gay, but the way he hid his hobbies that the outside world judged to be effeminate made him believe he was. Now, that interpretation has its own problems, but it at least ties up his story somewhat.

The homophobic jokes pretty much come from shit head teenagers been shit heads. The real problem is that the game gives all these pieces of his narrative, but never ties it together. The game never bothers to say 'hey, these guys are kinda shits for making these jokes. It's just a bunch of portions of good ideas. If there's a major flaw in Persona 4, a game I deeply, deeply love, it's right there.
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I don't have the whole script memorized, but isn't it just Yosuke doing that? The gang's resident dickhead.
 
Y

yami4ct

Member
Antiwhippy said:
But the thing is that he's reduced to nothing more than a gay punchline in the main story when those interactions happen, and it does a lot more harm to his character than teddyisms, Chie's meat or yukiko's laughter. I actually find it pretty offensive with the way the main story treats him.
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I don't have a problem with the jokes themselves, because that feels unfortunately true to life. That's how kids in Kanji's age group and the kinds of friends he would would treat him.

The problem is the game never bothers to point out how shitty that is. It's OK if you have otherwise good characters do shitty things sometimes because they're immature, but you should have some way to point out that it's a shitty immature way to be. Perhaps that would've been a good place to inject Naoto as a defender for Kanji, since she's far more mature than the rest of the group.

Curufinwe said:
I don't have the whole script memorized, but isn't it just Yosuke doing that? The gang's resident dickhead.
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I feel like there's a moment or two of other people being shits, but it's 90% Yosuke. That's part of the reason I don't find the very existence to the jokes to be offensive. Like I said, I think the lack of a counterbalance is a missed opportunity.
 
H

Hot Coldman

Banned
Speaking of Persona, heads up fellow Europeans: Persona Q drops to £18 on the eShop permanently this Thursday

also Soul Hackers and both 3DS Etrian Odysseys drop to £9, so get on that shit
 
S

stump sock

Member
yami4ct said:
Perhaps that would've been a good place to inject Naoto as a defender for Kanji, since she's far more mature than the rest of the group.
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yeah but she's also pretty oblivious to the people around her for the most part (until S-links). japanese media loves their calculating detective types

Twin Tails said:
https://www.instagram.com/p/BFxA3J0HLb8/?taken-by=giantbombdotcom&hl=en
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oh shit, there's a stream tonight? let's see if my power survives this thunderstorm
 
Y

yami4ct

Member
stump sock said:
yeah but she's also pretty oblivious to the people around her for the most part (until S-links). japanese media loves their calculating detective types
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She also comes into the group after that punchline has been mostly run through.

It's a tough narrative to handle. Maybe just have an option for the MC to tell Yosuke to stop being a dick would've been enough of a step given the available narrative resources.
 
D

demidar

Member
yami4ct said:
She also comes into the group after that punchline has been mostly run through.

It's a tough narrative to handle. Maybe just have an option for the MC to tell Yosuke to stop being a dick would've been enough of a step given the available narrative resources.
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Yosuke is such a shithead. Punching him was not enough.
 
Y

yami4ct

Member
demidar said:
Yosuke is such a shithead. Punching him was not enough.
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He's such a realistic shithead, though. I feel like I knew like 6 dudes like him. He's got a charming side too, but he's such a stupid teenage dick. He's definitely the kinds of guy who's going to look back on his teenage years and cringe.
 
A

Antiwhippy

the holder of the trombone
yami4ct said:
I don't have a problem with the jokes themselves, because that feels unfortunately true to life. That's how kids in Kanji's age group and the kinds of friends he would would treat him.

The problem is the game never bothers to point out how shitty that is. It's OK if you have otherwise good characters do shitty things sometimes because they're immature, but you should have some way to point out that it's a shitty immature way to be. Perhaps that would've been a good place to inject Naoto as a defender for Kanji, since she's far more mature than the rest of the group.
Click to expand...


Look, I have no problem with portraying teenagers as the little shits that they can be, but as you said, there's no counterbalance, which creates tone with a lot of unfortunate implications.

Also why can't they show kanji standing up for himself? They showed that they are perfectly capable of showing him as still insecure of himself but willing to stand for his convictions. It's like they threw away all of his character growth he got from gaining his persona just to make some really shitty jokes.

Love kanji, like he might be my favorite Megaten character, but the way he's treated in the story really grinds my gears.
 
L

LurkerPrime

Member
There's definitely some times I'd wished the P4 protag had a few more options in how he dealt with situations. Being swagmaster is fun, but sometimes you've gotta actually be a leader.
yami4ct said:
I don't have a problem with the jokes themselves, because that feels unfortunately true to life. That's how kids in Kanji's age group and the kinds of friends he would would treat him.

The problem is the game never bothers to point out how shitty that is. It's OK if you have otherwise good characters do shitty things sometimes because they're immature, but you should have some way to point out that it's a shitty immature way to be. Perhaps that would've been a good place to inject Naoto as a defender for Kanji, since she's far more mature than the rest of the group.



I feel like there's a moment or two of other people being shits, but it's 90% Yosuke. That's part of the reason I don't find the very existence to the jokes to be offensive. Like I said, I think the lack of a counterbalance is a missed opportunity.
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Yeah, I think you've got it; the writing is there, but the perspective is not. The humour (and how misguided it can be) in general is the weakest element of P4, which is a shame because it does have some truly great humour in it from time to time. Like, some of the earliest cooking humour made me laugh uncontrollably for... a long time.

I really hope P5 handles it better, because Atlus really makes great games otherwise.
 
Y

yami4ct

Member
Antiwhippy said:
Look, I have no problem with portraying teenagers as the little shits that they can be, but as you said, there's no counterbalance, which creates tone with a lot of unfortunate implications.

Also why can't they show kanji standing up for himself? They showed that they are perfectly capable of showing him as still insecure of himself but willing to stand for his convictions. It's like they threw away all of his character growth he got from gaining his persona just to make some really shitty jokes.

Love kanji, like he might be my favorite Megaten character, but the way he's treated in the story really grinds my gears.
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The thing with Kanji is, while he seems to stand strong for things, his only emotional defense mechanism is 'I'm gonna beat the shit out of you'. That's the kind of response he frequently gives Youske as well. He's also pretty damn confused when those jokes are happening, so he's not really in a proper place to play that counterbalancing role.

It's a weird mix of things that can lead to some unfortunate implications.

LurkerPrime said:
I really hope P5 handles it better, because Atlus really makes great games otherwise.
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The themes of P5 don't really seem like a thing they're going to tie to LGBT issues, so I don't think we'll see another Kanji story in this particular. I'm curious to see how they would handle it if they give it another go, but P5 is such a different thing that I'm happy to judge on its own merits.
 
V

valeo

Member
I can't play Overwatch for a few days yet because of exams/other commitments so hopefully I can live vicariously through GB
 
D

demidar

Member
yami4ct said:
He's such a realistic shithead, though. I feel like I knew like 6 dudes like him. He's got a charming side too, but he's such a stupid teenage dick. He's definitely the kinds of guy who's going to look back on his teenage years and cringe.
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I don't think I was ever friends with anyone like Yosuke, and I had a sizable group back in high school.
 
Y

yami4ct

Member
Salarians said:
Marie = trash
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She's alright. Sure, she's the overly dark goth girl and pretty silly because of it, but I think that character has her own charms there.

demidar said:
I don't think I was ever friends with anyone like Yosuke, and I had a sizable group back in high school.
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I definitely knew a group of guys (mostly potheads, honestly) that weren't nerds, but weren't jocks either. They pretty much all fit the kind of shitty teenage dude, but were actually bros when you needed them, style that Yosuke fits.
 
P

petethepanda

Member
I've always wondered if Marie and the stuff centering around her was part of some original pitch for P4 and cut early on. It's kind of awkward bolted on top of vanilla P4, but it's easy to imagine it fitting in perfectly if the story had been built from the ground-up to have it present.

I haven't been able to watch much over the last few weeks. Am I crazy or is the font size in chat bigger than it used to be?
 
Y

yami4ct

Member
Hot Coldman said:
Kanji's a great Persona character. Megaten character is a different matter, he's got some serious competition there
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I'm gonna get shit from a lot of other hardcore JRPG folks for this.

The writing in proper MegaTen games is pretty bad. So much faux deep crap in there. Most of those feel like a story a high schooler would write after taking an Intro to Religious Studies course.

Luckily the games and world they build are fucking rad.
 
A

Antiwhippy

the holder of the trombone
yami4ct said:
The thing with Kanji is, while he seems to stand strong for things, his only emotional defense mechanism is 'I'm gonna beat the shit out of you'. That's the kind of response he frequently gives Youske as well. He's also pretty damn confused when those jokes are happening, so he's not really in a proper place to play that counterbalancing role.
Click to expand...

His response to yosuke isn't just "I'm gonna beat the shit out of you" though, I would be fine if it is, the problem is that it turns into a "I'm not gay" joke that really isn't a good look.

Also I wouldn't say beating the shit out of people is his defining characteristic, it's more that he's bullheadedly naive and honest, which i thought was really well done, like when he told the gang to just let naoto's persona scene play out because it's something she needs to work through, except that it goes absent during those moments.
 
H

Hot Coldman

Banned
yami4ct said:
I'm gonna get shit from a lot of other hardcore JRPG folks for this.

The writing in proper MegaTen games is pretty bad. So much faux deep crap in there. Most of those feel like a story a high schooler would write after taking an Intro to Religious Studies course.

Luckily the games and world they build are fucking rad.
Click to expand...

well yeah, Persona is definitely better written, but SMT is generally just filled with fucking badasses like Raidou or the Demifiend

also I prefer how they integrate the demons into the plot. best thing about Persona 5 is how you fight the demons again, no more Shadows to be found
 
S

Salarians

Member
0IwdNdh.jpg
 
T

Teddified

Member
I tried Overwatch during the open beta and didn't really enjoy it much, maybe I never found a character I liked but I just found it frustrating for some reason. I'm not much of an multiplayer guy these days but I usually can get some enjoyment out of a random beta Overwatch just didn't do it for me I guess.
 
Y

yami4ct

Member
Hot Coldman said:
well yeah, Persona is definitely better written, but SMT is generally just filled with fucking badasses like Raidou or the Demifiend

also I prefer how they integrate the demons into the plot. best thing about Persona 5 is how you fight the demons again, no more Shadows to be found
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I don't particularly latch onto any SMT cast members, because they are pretty much all 1 note. This is the shitty Law guy. This is the anarchist Chaos dude. This dude is just a badass. They are just character traits, not characters.

They are good facilitators for a cool world, but I don't latch onto them as characters.

Antiwhippy said:
His response to yosuke isn't just "I'm gonna beat the shit out of you" though, I would be fine if it is, the problem is that it turns into a "I'm not gay" joke that really isn't a good look.

Also I wouldn't say beating the shit out of people isn't his defining characteristic, it's more that he's bullheaded naive and honest, which i thought was really well done, except that it goes absent during those moments.
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I think it makes sense for him to have a hard time dealing with those scenarios because they're making him question himself. He's not in an emotional state to keep acting like he normally would. The problem is that the game does barely anything to justify him transitioning out of the questioning state.

I wouldn't necessarily have a problem with Kanji being more assertive there, but on the same token, I don't think it's out of character for him to behave that way either.

I think the handling of this particular scenario is a really great example of where diversity in game development staff could help. I kind of doubt the Persona 4 writing staff haver ever really had an experience where they questioned their own sexuality. While they understood the basics of going through that and understood some of what that would mean, they don't have personal experience to realize how someone would finally transition out of that phase. Thus we just got a magical 'I realize I'm not gay!' moment. If someone on the staff had gone through that, they could've helped to write something a bit more nuanced and true to the experience.
 
J

justjim89

Member
I wonder if they'll do a Quick Look for Far Harbor. I've played about 4 hours so far and it's absolutely great. Some really fun quests.

Also, Stephen Russel does a voice for a character that sounds almost exactly like his old Garrett voice, so that gives me hope for his role in Dishonored 2.
 
D

Doop

Member
justjim89 said:
I wonder if they'll do a Quick Look for Far Harbor. I've played about 4 hours so far and it's absolutely great. Some really fun quests.

Also, Stephen Russel does a voice for a character that sounds almost exactly like his old Garrett voice, so that gives me hope for his role in Dishonored 2.
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Yeah, everything about Far Harbor seems better than the base game. Except for that one part. You know or will know the one.
 
L

LurkerPrime

Member
Teddified said:
Yeah I tried most of the characters I don't deny the "character" and coolness of them. I just was not feeling the gameplay and modes also I dunno if I won even one game.
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To start, don't feel obligated to win. It will be a few games before you even start to understand the basics, and several more before you start to feel comfortable with the maps and characters at play.

But really, if you don't like the gameplay I'd recommend against buying it. Overwatch is all about that kind of gameplay.
 
V

valeo

Member
Teddified said:
Yeah I tried most of the characters I don't deny the "character" and coolness of them. I just was not feeling the gameplay and modes also I dunno if I won even one game.
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Fair enough. It's good, but it's not for everyone.

I think you need to get in a party with friends to really enjoy it properly.
 
T

Teddified

Member
LurkerPrime said:
To start, don't feel obligated to win. It will be a few games before you even start to understand the basics, and several more before you start to feel comfortable with the maps and characters at play.

But really, if you don't like the gameplay I'd recommend against buying it. Overwatch is all about that kind of gameplay.
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Oh I wasn't ever planning to buy it I'm more of a singleplayer type of guy, I only tried the Beta because of the praise it was getting.
 
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