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Gizmodo: Xbox One is worse for everyone if Kinect not mandatory

Penguins&PolarBears said:
Your arguments against Kinect are based upon the first version, not the second version. And most times the voice commands are completely optional (a convenience, not a requirement). The features should be at least supported in every game.
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I'm all for using it for optional convenience, definitely. You have my sword for that kind of thing, as long as it is truly optional, can be disabled, and offers a convenience.

The stuff in current gen games has all been.. well, lets just say it's not good. I mean specifically head tracking and auto-vista camera swooshing in Forza 4, saying "grenade" in Halo Anniversary to throw a grenade (horrible, horrible, horrible, horrible idea), or using your hands to splay out parts in Future Soldier's gunsmith mode.
 
I think sometime in the future, MS will be kicking itself for pushing the Kinect so hard. The first iteration certainly didn't revolutionize anything, the second iteration probably won't either.

If MS really wants a peripheral that will revolutionize gaming/entertainment, they should purchase the rights to Occulus Rift.
 
Surely developers knowing that every household which buys the XO having Kinect is enough ?

The install base will be there, they just need to make software worth plugging it in for.

I don't see how removing the mandatory requirements change anything, if the debs just make shovel ware , no one is going to buy it with or without a required connection.
 
Motion capture device is good for motion capture, not an ideal pointing device, not a good input device, no mater how accurate it maybe.
Unlike mouse keyboad, touchscreen even gamepad, motion capture do not have the "hover" part, it input all the time, that's what make Kinect fundamentally flawed as an input device.

But I still think MS should bundle it, to sell for casuals, that's one huge market. Who knows, they might find their Kinect "minecraft"

I can think so something like make your own cut scene with Kinect, for the whole play create share thing or create your own fighting game animation something motion capture would do.
 
You know what's kind of sad? I quite like the way that kinect knows who you are, and knows which controller you picked up (because the controllers emit IR I think) so you should never have to fiddle with changing controller IDs etc. that is actually more interesting to me than the motion control stuff.
 
mrklaw said:
You know what's kind of sad? I quite like the way that kinect knows who you are, and knows which controller you picked up (because the controllers emit IR I think) so you should never have to fiddle with changing controller IDs etc. that is actually more interesting to me than the motion control stuff.
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It shows potential. But we are either too stubborn or too unwilling to take a small risk on it.
 
mrklaw said:
You know what's kind of sad? I quite like the way that kinect knows who you are, and knows which controller you picked up (because the controllers emit IR I think) so you should never have to fiddle with changing controller IDs etc. that is actually more interesting to me than the motion control stuff.
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That and the idea of playing a game, snapping a web browser and then using voice to do a search - for game info, faqs, whatever. I could see myself doing this.

MJLord said:
It shows potential. But we are either too stubborn or too unwilling to take a small risk on it.
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Who is "we"? And what did "we" do? The Kinect hasn't been gimped or made any more optional.
 
who cares. motion gaming is annoying (the way it was used this gen) and I'm glad that grumpy old man like me have won.

Now give me full OR support and I'll buy that damn thing.
 
NullPointer said:
That and the idea of playing a game, snapping a web browser and then using voice to do a search - for game info, faqs, whatever. I could see myself doing this.
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Big time. The problem isnt that this isnt interesting, the problem is that a lot of people dont think thats worth 100$. I want to see what they do with it in the games. Thats where they will really sell people on it.
 
NullPointer said:
That and the idea of playing a game, snapping a web browser and then using voice to do a search - for game info, faqs, whatever. I could see myself doing this.


Who is "we"? And what did "we" do? The Kinect hasn't been gimped or made any more optional.
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Nah, that's what the iPad is for. And of course we'll all have a tablet handy for smartglass ;)
 
Kalamari said:
I think sometime in the future, MS will be kicking itself for pushing the Kinect so hard. The first iteration certainly didn't revolutionize anything, the second iteration probably won't either.

If MS really wants a peripheral that will revolutionize gaming/entertainment, they should purchase the rights to Occulus Rift.
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The first iteration was an optional peripheral, the market was too divided to receive true support. That's why very few games really supported Motion Plus and Balance Board for the Wii. No matter how much unites these hardware sold. Developers, most of the time and specially third parties, will try to aim for the bigger market, so they'll make games that can work on every console.

The true test is now. Every console is bundled with a Kinect 2, so Software developers (Game and Apps) will be certain that the installed base has an access to an Kinect which changed things a lot compared tot he first Kinect 1. People need to realize there is an insanely huge difference between a optional, sold-separately, piece of tech and one bundled with every product. It's common sense 101. You can't really use the Kinect 1 as proof that Kinect 2 games will suck.
 
Shivin said:
I'm curious...what exactly would you be having to endure? What burden would having a Kinect place upon you? People talk about this thing like Microsoft is trying to force a vegetarian to eat meat or something....sheesh. Once you have it you have it. I would prefer to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it when you want it.
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I prefer not to be forced to plug something in that im not using for the off chance one day There might be something i might want to use it for.

The kinect is still bundled with the system. If there is a worthwhile game, people will buy and use the device. But you cannot tell me there is a value in have the device always on and connected if its not being used. It is ridiculously silly to even suggest a thing.


Gaming is not a charity. I dont care what you, random stranger Internet #1 want to try. If you like it, go buy it. I know what I want to play and I know what I don't. Of course im going to look after my own interests over yours.


To suggest that I should have to put up with a unused kinect 2 for my entire consoles lifetime so you might get one or 2 unique pieces of software, software that developers can still make if they really are determined - after all the userbase is still there, is nonsense.


No thank you I dont want it and now by dropping the kinect requirement, they have potentially gained a sale from a customer who will buy a bunch of first and third party software. Im selfish but im real. I think a couple of crappy kinect games are worth that sacrifice. sue me.
 
mrklaw said:
Nah, that's what the iPad is for.
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Sometimes.

To use one example I've been using the ipad lately when playing Dragon's Crown to keep an image of different rune-words at the ready. But I'll also do a search here and there for enemy weaknesses and resistances. Managing that while gaming is a bit cumbersome. Voice would make things better, as well as snapping to the big screen for a few moments as needed.

Popping up an image of multiplayer maps in Halo or some other shooter to refresh on the callouts would also be handy.

Or doing a voice search to see how the fuck you throw a grenade in Syndicate.

All of these are things I've done using second screen stuff or switching attention between the console and PC. Snapping a browser with voice would be perfection for all of this. Just saying I'd definitely put it to use if it works the way I imagine it does.
 
Penguins&PolarBears said:
Consumers spoke and bought 100 million Wiis, and over 25 million Kinect sensors.

Pretty clear indication that many consumers want this.
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They were hyped, they had their fun, they are gone.

Seriously, those casual consumers who petted virtual animals with the first Kinect for 3 weeks and whose Kinect collects dust since then, do you really think they will be back because they can pet animals more accurately now? Hint: they don't give a shit.
 
Kalamari said:
I think sometime in the future, MS will be kicking itself for pushing the Kinect so hard. The first iteration certainly didn't revolutionize anything, the second iteration probably won't either.

If MS really wants a peripheral that will revolutionize gaming/entertainment, they should purchase the rights to Occulus Rift.
Click to expand...

First of all Kinect is extremely valuable outside of gaming, so even if you don't believe it's useful for gaming it's very useful from a financial/business standpoint. Being aware of a users expression, heart rate, focus, and audience size is very valuable in games apps and TV. Searching for content via natural language or loading apps/TV channels by voice, auto-login of profiles, tracking who's holding a controller, having voice/video chat available to all users, and being able to control the users TV/cable box/AV are all very valuable.


Anyone who pushes the Oculus Rift idea better have a Kinect-like motion control system. The two technologies compliment each other. Both VR and AR need full body motion control/awareness. If Microsoft goes down the VR or AR route eventually (Kinect Glasses) then the motion/voice sensor is going to increase it's value.
 
you wanna see a 180? lets see how gamers feel about it in a year or two. watch how integrated kinect is to the xbox one. gaming, UI, media, apps. it will be inseparable. it will be easy and quick. it, or something replicating it, will become the next standard in gaming.
 
Penguins&PolarBears said:
You have never used the new Kinect so you don't even have any idea of what it's level of precision is, neither do I. Where are you getting that Kinect adds $100 extra? That is a completely made up number. A lot of the costs of Kinect were in it's R&D so you still have to pay for that, it still limits Microsoft's willingness to drop the price of the console. And the base hardware itself is not equal to the the PS4s.

Why would developers adding some Kinect features to games make you not want an Xbox? I'm not saying every game should be built around motion control. I'm saying every game should support voice commands, automatic profile tracking, maybe even enhanced NPC AI based upon data gathered by the sensor. All of this stuff can work optionally to enhance a game. If you don't want it then you miss out on some of the niceties of the full game. For every developer to build these features into their game then nearly everyone has to have a Kinect and it has to be really easy in the SDK to add these functions.
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But I do know that it's worse than a controller, that's good enough for me to know that I don't want to control anything more than something basic with it.

The $100 is what's floating around the web and MS hasn't denied it, so I just go with it till MS says otherwise.

Because then I had to have the damn thing hooked up. And all those features that you wrote it can do, I just don't want them. Part of it is privacy concerns, other issues are that I just don't believe it adds immersion or couldn't be solved without Kinect.

As we are discussing things I just realized that I dislike Kinect more than I thought lol.
 
Anyone else getting Deja Vu with this gizmodo article? I swear I remember Gizmodo playing the internet about another MS decision a month or so back...
 
Penguins&PolarBears said:
First of all Kinect is extremely valuable outside of gaming, so even if you don't believe it's useful for gaming it's very useful from a financial/business standpoint. Being aware of a users expression, heart rate, focus is very valuable. Searching for content via natural language, auto-login of profiles, tracking who's holding a controller, and being able to control the users TV/cable box/AV are all very valuable.

Anyone who pushes the Oculus Rift idea better have a Kinect-like motion control system. The two technologies compliment each other. Both VR and AR need full body motion control/awareness. If Microsoft goes down the VR or AR route eventually (Kinect Glasses) then the motion/voice sensor is going to increase it's value.
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All that value for only 499.99!

Realistic expectations have left the building.
 
The BIG problem with Kinteic is that the device can not improve gameplay on Halo , Gears of War , COD , BT , Grand T. Auto or other AAA franchise that moves consumers.

For those games even the WiiU Pad can be a better device for extra use.

So MS is forcing these players to get a device that will never use, in the other side Activision wont waste resources on COD Kinetic just because its in every Xbone.

The only way Kinetic will have appeal on those users is that MS takes Halo 5 and the only way to play it is with Kinetic , but I bet MS wont risk Halo 5 gameplay just to push Kinenic..

So at the end Kinetic and WiiU Pad will have similiar fate.
 
op_ivy said:
you wanna see a 180? lets see how gamers feel about it in a year or two. watch how integrated kinect is to the xbox one. gaming, UI, media, apps. it will be inseparable. it will be easy and quick. it, or something replicating it, will become the next standard in gaming.
Click to expand...
Do you know these little gizmos that let you turn on your light by clapping with your hands? I bought one many years ago because it seemed neat. After about two weeks it turned out that just flicking a switch was way more convenient.

That's Kinect: seems neat, is unpractical and cumbersome (even with better accuracy). Therefore it will never succeed.
 
Bigmac1910 said:
But I do know that it's worse than a controller, that's good enough for me to know that I don't want to control anything more than something basic with it.

The $100 is what's floating around the web and MS hasn't denied it, so I just go with it till MS says otherwise.
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This is what passes for facts at NeoGAF? Microsoft is supposed to come out and say how much Kinect is adding to the BoM to the Xbox One? And until they do the simple math that PS4 is $100 less suffices as proof that Kinect added only $100 to the price of an X1.

Personally I feel like an Xbox One without Kinect better be $349 or under. On paper without Kinect how is an Xbox One equal to the PS4 price?


As far as being less precise than a controller: Almost every use I've suggested for Kinect in core games has nothing to do with control, but the sensor reading the users state and tailoring the game to the player. For most games the Kinect should not replace the controller. This is the same argument people make against touch screens on PCs. The touch screen is an addition, not a replacement for the mouse. The mouse itself was an addition, not a replacement for the keyboard. The Kinect is an addition, not a replacement for the controller.
 
op_ivy said:
you wanna see a 180? lets see how gamers feel about it in a year or two. watch how integrated kinect is to the xbox one. gaming, UI, media, apps. it will be inseparable. it will be easy and quick. it, or something replicating it, will become the next standard in gaming.
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My money'd be on voice + tablet/second screen touch control.

But Kinect gesture without haptic feedback, as a standard? for anything? Nope, I just can't follow you to those far shores.
 
Shivin said:
People will pay $499 for an XBOne..which has a Kinect, controller, and headset as standard equipment.

People paid $599 for a PS3 even though the xbox was cheaper at the time. I bet the true test will be the user experience when this thing gets into people home and not really the price.
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You that the first sales doesn't really represent anything, right? PS3 had a lot of problems to sell at that price. It started to sell better only when the price dropped (or deals were offered).

I don't think that the casual market will buy an XBONE just for the kinect 2.
 
I wanted Microsoft to stick with the always online and kinect. I wasn't gonna buy one at launch regardless, but down the line if it did things different than the PS4 I would grab one. Now it essentially comes down to exclusives on the system, which don't appeal to me, and Microsoft isn't to be trusted based on the lack of support late in both of their consoles life cycles.
 
SwiftDeath said:
A killer in-game app but yes one would at least validate its existence game-wise

Have my doubts we'll ever see one though

And then what?

What is the point of the $100 extra that all those gamers spent who wanted kinect to be something amazing?

Sounds like a kickstarter to me

Hope they deliver on their promises
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Having it in every box increases the chances more developers will give a shit about it, increasing the chances that at least one core-focused killer game will eventually be made that wouldn't work without Kinect. I'm not saying it will happen, but having Kinect in every box increases the chances.

If that doesn't happen, then it's basically the Wii U GamePad all over again, except the Kinect in this case isn't the entire identity of the console.

Anyway, I think we need to draw a contrast between Kinect, the Wii U GamePad, and previous input innovations that took hold (additional buttons, analog sticks, triggers, rumble, etc.).

Typically, when Nintendo would introduce some new input innovation in the past Miyamoto would already have a game ready that's designed from the ground up for it. In fact in many cases inputs like the N64 controller were basically designed around Miyamoto's games like Mario 64. Star Fox 64 was designed to heavily leverage rumble, which came packed in with the game, which helped it become a standard. Sony helped push Dual Analog with games like Ape Escape. Nintendo had Wii Sports ready to go at the Wii's launch to justify motion controls.

It seems that in recent years console manufacturers have been putting out new inputs without the games to justify them. The DS's touch screen got lucky when games like Kirby Canvas Curse justified it. PlayStation Move didn't really debut with much other than a souped-up Wii Sports and some shooters. Kinect 1.0 just had a bunch of casual games.

Microsoft should've commissioned one of their first party studios to try to develop a core-focused game around Kinect 2.0 in conjunction with the controller. I'm baffled Nintendo still hasn't found a great use for the GamePad.

I'm really more intrigued with what Sony's doing with the PS4 controller. That touchpad is basically a laptop touchpad right? And If I understand correctly the controller even has a pointer on the front of it. If Sony was smart one of its first party studios would be working on a visionary game to leverage that stuff right now. Why couldn't they at least moneyhat some PC developer to bring a strategy game to the PS4 using the touchpad?

All I'm saying is, I don't want us to be using the same standard controllers forever, but manufacturers have to actually think about how they introduce advancements.
 
op_ivy said:
you wanna see a 180? lets see how gamers feel about it in a year or two. watch how integrated kinect is to the xbox one. gaming, UI, media, apps. it will be inseparable. it will be easy and quick. it, or something replicating it, will become the next standard in gaming.
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Bookmarked. See ya in a year ;)
 
Bedlam said:
Do you know these little gizmos that let you turn on your light by clapping with your hands? I bought one many years ago because it seemed neat. After about two weeks it turned out that just flicking a switch was way more convenient.

That's Kinect: seems neat, is unpractical and cumbersome (even with better accuracy). Therefore it will never succeed.
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you know that stupid rumble in your game pads? or that second thumbstick? those used to be looked at with doubtful eyes too.

NullPointer said:
My money'd be on voice + tablet/second screen touch control.

But Kinect gesture without haptic feedback, as a standard? for anything? Nope, I just can't follow you to those far shores.
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to be a bit more clear, i'm talking kinect - the whole package. so voice is included.
 
op_ivy said:
you know that stupid rumble in your game pads? or that second thumbstick? those used to be looked at with doubtful eyes too.
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How long did it take those technologies to show what they could do? Because Kinect has been around for a few years already and we still don't even have the announcement of a kill app, even in theory.

That's a huge problem.

op_ivy said:
to be a bit more clear, i'm talking kinect - the whole package. so voice is included.
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Well the voice part I like, quite a bit, when appropriate.
 
In five years the Kinect 2.0 will have the exact same status as that robot the NES came with. Nobody wanted the Kinect, they bought it to play one game and then stashed it away or let it collect dust (sales of kinect games proves this). There is nothing about the new version that makes it compelling. People DO NOT WANT TO INTERACT WITH THEIR CONSOLE THIS WAY.

It'll go down on the list of stupid peripherals they tried to force on the consumer. If the XBone succeeds, it'll be despite the Kinect, not because of it. Nobody asked for this.
 
NullPointer said:
How long did it take those technologies to show what they could do? Because Kinect has been around for a few years already.
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i really dont think the two are comparable. obviously we know kinect 2 is better. it comes shipped with the system and is standard. but most important, xbox one is BUILT with kinect in mind. everything will use it. it wont be half assed.
 
DevilDawg said:
So if Microsoft is smart they will announce a Kinect-less SKU.
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The best thing to do is match the PS4 price with the Kinect included. If you match PS4 price by dumping the Kinect you run the risk of not only losing your biggest asset but also having people say the PS4 is still a better value (better hardware).

I understand that people just like cheap/cheaper stuff, but explain to me how anyone thinks an Xbox One without Kinect is equal in value to a PS4?

If you can match the PS4 price with the Kinect included then at least you have an argument that you're offering a better value at $399.
 
op_ivy said:
you wanna see a 180? lets see how gamers feel about it in a year or two. watch how integrated kinect is to the xbox one. gaming, UI, media, apps. it will be inseparable. it will be easy and quick. it, or something replicating it, will become the next standard in gaming.
Click to expand...

That's some 'glass half full' optimism there. My hat is off to your rabid devotion/obsession to unproven technology.
 
Krakn3Dfx said:
That's some 'glass half full' optimism there. My hat is off to your rabid devotion/obsession to unproven technology.
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thank you (for the first half of your post anyway). gamers can be too cynical at times.
 
David H Wong said:
In five years the Kinect 2.0 will have the exact same status as that robot the NES came with. Nobody wanted the Kinect, they bought it to play one game and then stashed it away or let it collect dust (sales of kinect games proves this). There is nothing about the new version that makes it compelling. People DO NOT WANT TO INTERACT WITH THEIR CONSOLE THIS WAY.

It'll go down on the list of stupid peripherals they tried to force on the consumer. If the XBone succeeds, it'll be despite the Kinect, not because of it. Nobody asked for this.
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No one asked for mandatory Ethernet, rumble controllers, ability to install console games, etc. Theres a lot of shit people dont ask for that turn out to be useful.
 
Clown article.

It's definitely better for me since I'll be buying it now.

watch how integrated kinect is to the xbox one. gaming, UI, media, apps. it will be inseparable. it will be easy and quick. it, or something replicating it, will become the next standard in gaming.
Click to expand...

And mine will be in a land fill.
 
NullPointer said:
How long did it take those technologies to show what they could do? Because Kinect has been around for a few years already and we still don't even have the announcement of a kill app, even in theory.

That's a huge problem.
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By 'killer app', I assume you mean software that justifies buying the hardware. With 24 million Kinects sold, I don't think Microsoft has had much difficulty in selling the hardware. Nor is the (Kinect bundled) Xbox One going to have much trouble selling out at launch.
 
Penguins&PolarBears said:
This is what passes for facts at NeoGAF? Microsoft is supposed to come out and say how much Kinect is adding to the BoM to the Xbox One? And until they do the simple math that PS4 is $100 less suffices as proof that Kinect added only $100 to the price of an X1.

Personally I feel like an Xbox One without Kinect better be $349 or under. On paper without Kinect how is an Xbox One equal to the PS4 price?


As far as being less precise than a controller: Almost every use I've suggested for Kinect in core games has nothing to do with control, but the sensor reading the users state and tailoring the game to the player.For most games the Kinect should not replace the controller. This is the same argument people make against touch screens on PCs. The touch screen is an addition, not a replacement for the mouse.
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Never said it was facts, just a number that is floating around the web at the moment.

Since they have rumored yield issues with the huge ESRAM, the Xbox might not be as cheap to produce as one thinks.

But what's the point of having a touchscreen on the pc if still requires a mouse? I would say it's absolutely pointless unless you want to draw or something.
 
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