Correct ratios?
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Goddammit Netflix: Why Your Fear of Black Bars is Ruining My Movies
- Thread starter Bobby Roberts
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Correct ratios?
Snkfanatic
Banned
Ugh my roommate does this when he is watching something. Can't stand it.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
I'm stealing this.
I gave a presentation about this in my public speaking class like 6-7 years back. Everybody, except for one person, didn't understand and just told me to buy a widescreen tv when I got peoples comments back. I even printed off a bunch of examples and nobody really seemed to care.
TAJ
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
There's a difference between Pixar doing it (do they still even do this, btw?) and someone going into photoshop. Pixar has the source-files, and they get the director in there to essentially recompose the shots. At least they used to.
I guarantee you dude didn't check with David Lean before popping open Photoshop
Did they get the director in there? I thought the layout guys made those calls, but that part of my memory banks hasn't been refreshed in a good 14 years.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Coulda sworn when they started doing it, they had Lasseter in there looking at it. (Toy Story 2, Bug's Life)
It's been north of five years since I saw those extras that talked about it.
It's been north of five years since I saw those extras that talked about it.
poppabk
Cheeks Spread for Digital Only Future
No they don't at least not for me. I regularly watch more than one movie a week and I regularly receive big movies day one, and my turnaround is only limited by the mail delivery.
Available for me in Canada
cubicle47b
Member
Haha.
do you have a 4:3, 16:10, or 16:9 monitor?
sketchsanchez
Member
i remember how much my mind was blown when i watched this scene in widescreen for the first time:
on my old vhs, Ray and Egon didnt even exist.
Maybe just Egon now that i think about it
on my old vhs, Ray and Egon didnt even exist.
Maybe just Egon now that i think about it
First of all, the term "classic film ratio" is hilarious since movies started 4:3, and TV's started 4:3 because they were mimicking the look of film. It was only when TV's became more and more popular, threatening the box office, that films got wider and wider to try and give an experience you couldn't get at home (doubly funny because initially the point was "Look at how much more you see in the theater! So much beautiful imagery!" which was totally forgotten or misremembered decades later as "Why are they covering things with black bars?".
Secondly, I want you to imagine how this would look cropped to 16x9, let alone 4:3:
How do you even convey the same image properly? You don't. One person is cut out no matter how you crop it, simple as that, dramatically changing the composition, balance and information presented in the shot.
You're going the wrong way about it though. Let's say you did want to do a 4:3 standard you wouldn't shoot the image as if you were cropping off the side, you'd shoot it so that you add to the top and bottom of the image. More blue sky on top and more brown dirt on the bottom, while keeping the 2 men, the distance between them, and all other image information in the scene exactly as you have it shown. Obviously though you can't do that to an existing movie like this, but if the director knew before hand that he had to do 4:3, then he'd use the 4:3 camera and simply shoot the scene from farther back, allowing the exact same image you show, plus added imagery on the top and bottom.
Same principle for putting an ultra-widescreen scene into a 16:9 frame. You don't crop out image information, you add it. Again though, you couldn't do it for movies that already exist, but you could make it so future movies would all correspond to the same ratio and it wouldn't limit directors and artists in what they could do. I'm pretty sure directors and artists really hate to see their movies get completely butchered up in the editing room for TV syndication and/or know that there are a bunch of people out there zooming in their works and cutting off the edges of the scenes. At least if there was some sort of standard set, then they'd know everyone is viewing the exact same thing in the exact same way so every scene gets the same message across across all platforms.
I personally can deal with black bars because I like to have the proper aspect ratio and all of the scene in the picture, but it does seem a bit silly at times to have a 50" screen and only get to use 70% of it.
It's just impossible. There will always be uneducated people whining about black bars "covering up" their movies or "shrinking" the image on their TV.
itwasTuesday
He wasn't alone.
i remember how much my mind was blown when i watched this scene in widescreen for the first time:
on my old vhs, Ray and Egon didnt even exist.
Maybe just Egon now that i think about it
When GBII came out pan&scan they would always cut out Winston.
And on topic, Netflix likely just plays what they get. A lot of their movies play on EPIX first, and are the same aspect ratio. So I imagine when Dredd comes to Netflix it will be cropped to 16:9, like it was shown on EPIX.
Those people need to accept the black bars or learn how to use the zoom button on their remote.
Normal people shouldn't be punished. At least offer a fucking choice and as for Netflix being shitty for this it really doesn't bother me because i only watch TV shows on Netflix. Finally getting around to Mad Men.
But you can't adequately frame for 4:3, 16x9, 2.35:1, 2.40:1, etc, you can't frame for all those ratios at the same time. You could theoretically shoot so there is extra unused information (as I've already said some films are shot "open matte"), but again your composition is only going to be for the ratio you choose, so "opening it up" is going to again alter the composition by adding dead space above and below, or to the sides depending on how the image was shot and how it's being changed. So even though all the elements are still present, it's still altering the composition. Placing a character in the middle of a frame is different than putting them against the edge. Suddenly adding more head room or nose room is changing that intent. Your idea is not a workable solution.
My idea was to simply keep all of the information in the shown image intact. That's all it is. And of course you can't adequately frame for all those ratios, that's why a standard was mentioned. Standard in this case means 1 ratio, not dozens. As far as replicating existing movie scenes 1:1, you're right, there is no workable solution other than varying degrees of black bars like we have now. But in this theoretical world where there is 1 standard, my solution would have been better than cutting people out of the scene or squishing them together in that hilariously bad 4:3 image that one guy posted.
diggmcbadass
Member
God damn. Now you just went and ruined netflix. Have to check original aspect ratio on imdb for every movie I'm going to see from now on. Feels just like back in the early dvd days.
Because the scenes that changed out of the black borders were shot in imax.
That was extremely hard to explain.
rocksteady1983
Member
Yes I know that already, but people don't understand it. I'm like, it's shot in IMAX and they're all like, "What, I don't understand." All they know is that IMAX is a bigger theater, they have no idea it's a different ratio... or even understand the concept of a ratio.
What a revealing conversation.
QualityPixel
Banned
Check out what the Trailer Park Boys movie looks like.
Thank you for ruining a movie, Netflix. Such an amateur mistake taking a widescreen movie and forcing it into 4:3.
Thank you for ruining a movie, Netflix. Such an amateur mistake taking a widescreen movie and forcing it into 4:3.
Maybe it's a meta joke Netflix is pulling, like they're the Trailer Park Boys and they'd probably be watching something on their stolen TV in this squished mode.
Truuuuuuue. Though Netflix does some silly stuff, OP is right.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
All of my posts contain this level of depth and introspection. Every single one.
Fudgepuppy
Banned
I personally don't get how the IMAX scenes in TDKR worked seamlessly with the 33mm cinemascope scenes at my cinema, which is cinemascope.
Movies can't be shot in 4:3 and cropped to widescreen. Anyone shooting in widescreen knows that's a lousy compromise because they have to then compose shots in ways that cater to two screen shapes at the same time.
GuitarAtomik
Member
I used to work at Suncoast Video years and years ago during the transition to DVDs. People hate the black bars because they always assumed they were actually cutting off the top and bottom of the screen instead of the reality that they were missing the sides. Luckily we had a company provided picture at the front register showing and example of what they were actually missing with pan and scan so I could just easily point to that. I wonder if people still don't understand it.
OfWhiteSkinOnRedLeather
Member
It's pretty well known that Netflix throttles heavy DVD/BD users.
yeah i would rather just have everything shot in the resolution of my television movies like Avatar and the Avengers as well as scenes from the dark knight rises and tron come to mind
Then you have movie like Oz the great and powerful. Shot in a 2.5:1 ratio with the beginning of the movie in 4:3. Giving you this small box to watch on a 16:9 aspect ratio television screen. It was over all really annoying to deal with
Then you have movie like Oz the great and powerful. Shot in a 2.5:1 ratio with the beginning of the movie in 4:3. Giving you this small box to watch on a 16:9 aspect ratio television screen. It was over all really annoying to deal with
....that was an intentional stylistic decision to mimic the change of black and white to color of the original film. In theaters, the beginning of the film is black and white, 4:3 and not 3D; when you get to Oz the frame expands to widescreen, it's in color and is now 3D. These are storytelling and artistic choices that filmmakers utilize.
No see but that doesn't matter. I paid for my pixels now use them all!!
sketchsanchez
Member
they dont
Read my post before that. I didn't say to crop the image at all.
eddfromtheriver
Banned
Meh, i actually prefer it like this... i loathe... LOATHE... black bars... directors artistic vision be damned...
Bobby Roberts
Banned
That's the thing - I don't think it IS a problem for MOST people. Which is why the practice is extra annoying in 2013.
At one point, in the 80s/90s? Absolutely it was a weird thing.
2013? It seems weird to me that people who don't understand that different media sometimes come in different shapes would STILL be the majority, or at least enough of a sizable minority that movie studios would still default to cropping their films before releasing them to cable/netflix.
PhoncipleBone
Banned
It annoys me when I know things are not in their original aspect ratio (OAR) on Netflix. Many times you would never know unless you knew the technical details of the film, but it is extremely annoying when the opening credits are in the OAR, and then suddenly it crops down to 16:9 for the rest of the film.
In the end, I blame the studios and HBO rather than Netflix. The studios have been making 16:9 versions of their films for HBO HD and other stations for years, and it will probably never stop either. Netflix can only use what they are given. At least there are still tons of things on there that are unaltered and how they should be seen.
Having worked retail for over 10 years, and selling movies constantly, the black bars are still a pretty regular complaint from people. It always boils down to an idiot saying: "I spent this much on my TV, I didn't spend that for no stupid black bars!"
The problem before 16:9 became the widely used standard was getting anything above 1.33:1 in OAR. Now everyone wants 1.33:1 stuff cropped to fit 16:9 and still wants 2.xx stuff cropped too. Morons.
In the end, I blame the studios and HBO rather than Netflix. The studios have been making 16:9 versions of their films for HBO HD and other stations for years, and it will probably never stop either. Netflix can only use what they are given. At least there are still tons of things on there that are unaltered and how they should be seen.
Having worked retail for over 10 years, and selling movies constantly, the black bars are still a pretty regular complaint from people. It always boils down to an idiot saying: "I spent this much on my TV, I didn't spend that for no stupid black bars!"
The problem before 16:9 became the widely used standard was getting anything above 1.33:1 in OAR. Now everyone wants 1.33:1 stuff cropped to fit 16:9 and still wants 2.xx stuff cropped too. Morons.
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