That's part of the problem, sure.
But it's difficult to report on the Democrats fellating themselves if they don't actually do it.
Apparently, people love that bravado.
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Going Scorched earth. Rest of Democrats breaking away from Senators?
- Thread starter wildfire
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That's part of the problem, sure.
But it's difficult to report on the Democrats fellating themselves if they don't actually do it.
Apparently, people love that bravado.
At this point, obstruction is morelike political jungle warfare for the Dems. The main goals being to delay, snowball or subvert harmfull policies . Aye democrats have their public standing to consider but if they are smart and play their cards right, then democrats could potentially turn every obstruction into a victory in the publics eye.
Jesus, fucking this.
Trump gets a whole news cycle for giving subsidies to a fucking AC company. Obama gets slaughtered after saving the goddamn economy. It's just a complete failure of leveraging your victories.
sugarhigh4242
Banned
That's fine. It's your party, I want one that represents working people.
You should definitely lead with that anti-minimum wage position btw. Should be a great vote-getter.
amen
Steve Youngblood
Member
Right. But we have the capability of voting on individual pieces of legislation. We don't have to simplify every single vote as universal approval or condemnation of the Trump agenda. I just don't understand why it's necessary to vote no on the legislation to send puppies to cheer up sick kids at the children's hospital just because Trump and/or the GOP proposed it. Like I said, this isn't a way to encourage us to cave in on important shit now under the misguided delusion that the GOP will play ball later or try to get senpai Trump to like us. But I also don't see the need to draw a hard line in the sand in favor of absolute obstructionism. It just seems unnecessary to me.
Muppet of a Man
Member
Right. In a rational world, compromise is a constructive thing. But the world we live in today politically is no longer rational. We must hold the line. We must go back to the fundamentals of what the party stands for: the interests of the average man, woman, and child living in ordinary circumstances, whether they be poor, working class, or middle class. If you can't even uphold your most fundamental tenets by being unified behind them and having an actionable plan to make changes for the better, then you've already failed in times like these.
Corporate Democrats have already contributed significantly towards undermining the working people and poor of this country, hollowing out their wealth, earning capacity, and political capital, all on top of burdening them with massive amounts of debt just in order to even have a chance at a decent education and standard of living. This is not working. Democrats are less to blame, but ultimately do share the blame.
Trump hijacked Bernie's economic populism message but added toxic fascist, isolationist, sexist, and racist/xenophobic elements as well. The aim should be for inclusivity in our domestic workforce and to enforce fair trade principles abroad (I.e., US standards for labor and environment upheld abroad or else conditional tariffs, etc. levied). On top of that, we need a return of labor unions, pensions, and work/life balance, as well as universal access to higher education and healthcare, whether it be "free" (paid for via taxes, of course) or heavily subsidized.
Well, it got Trump elected.
You fundamentally misunderstood the swing voter in this election. They didn't want a government mandate on wages, they didn't want a handout, they didn't want a safety net.
They wanted the "dignity" of simply getting a high paying job.
Now, it was hilariously misguided and patently absurd, but there it was. That did it. For a lot of these people, it's about feeling emasculated by the government, I think. So Trump hid the handout behind subsidies to the company, which is of course backwards, crony nonsense.
I think this encapsulates what I wanted to say a lot better than any of my posts did. There's a difference between opposing policy cause it's shit, and doing it because you are angry at the person proposing it. Thank you for this.
For democratic legislators that are in red states to try to work with Trump is moot, because even if they say yes to all his ideas they wills till be attacked just for being democrats. We have already seen truth does not matter to the GOP and it's voters.
So either use their playbook and oppose all but the most innocuous stuff ( to use as "proof" of bipartisan ship) or let them pass everything they want and let the country burn....
But if that happens you still get the blame because the GOP is so damn good at lying ..errr messaging and so many people have the attention span of a goddamn goldfish.
I rather they fight in the hope to save whatever they can ...
So either use their playbook and oppose all but the most innocuous stuff ( to use as "proof" of bipartisan ship) or let them pass everything they want and let the country burn....
But if that happens you still get the blame because the GOP is so damn good at lying ..errr messaging and so many people have the attention span of a goddamn goldfish.
I rather they fight in the hope to save whatever they can ...
THIS is what we need. Say it over and over in the press. Call them terrorists every single time you refer to them. Doesnt matter if its true. Doesnt matter if they fact check it.
We need to take a few pages from their fucking book
Well said, but why do you think corporate democrats are the face of the party or at least the ones pulling the strings? It is because power lies with corporate interest. It has for many, many years and it will for the foreseeable future.
We'll cross that bridge when we get to it.
But right now, there's a greater likelihood that one night I'll get a knock on my door, and it'll be Idris Elba, Michael B Jordan, Drake, and Trey Songz, and they'll say to me, "Hello, sorry to disturb you, but we were on our way to the Annual Sexy Male Celebrity Convention, and our car broke down. Do you mind if we use your phone? Oh, and run a train on you?" than it is for the current Republican party to propose some unfettered good legislation.
Until Republicans show signs that they're willing to stop being shits, they should be offered the same courtesy and respect they gave Obama.
I largely agree.
And this isn't to say that the racism/seximsm/xenophobia didn't play a part... It most certainly did.
But as it always does: Selfish self-interest won the day. Trump promised jobs to an ignorant populace and they fell for it.
Embrace a far-left agenda, promise people better pay and free college (even though that's impossible) while still standing up for your core beliefs as a party. Brag about every victory, minor or otherwise. Get people excited and interested again.
Muppet of a Man
Member
It wasn't always so, and it doesn't need to continue to be. You need conviction and patience to put things back into balance. It is not easy but, on the flip side, corporate interests have been chipping away for 4 decades now to throw things grossly out of balance. A return to form is not going to come overnight.
Weirdest thing by far about this cycle had been watching Democrats fall all over themselves to become Repubs because we lost a match. You aren't going to win the next cycle by being a poor copy of Repubnlicans. Liberals need to find their own way.
Im becoming a repub? Funny my stance on most issues are still right in line with the dems.
Stealing one part of their strategy is a long fucking way from "falling all over myself to become a republican"
I don't know if your posts are more based around reactions to this thread, but the article itself does not have that tone. The Dems being queried have a response more akin to "we're not going to relent on bad legislation for the sake of current senate seats, we're not going to relent on bad legislation that gets paired up with good legislation and we have no delusions that we'll even have uniformly good legislation landing in front of us"
In other words: stop believing in the myth of "political capital".
That currency has devalued to zero.
Unknown One
Member
Fox News is too overpowered.
If we die trying, we die. It's time to get dirty.
Yep.
Platinumstorm
Member
Sure. I will happily agree with you with the studies that have shown an increase to $12 would be productive to the economy.
What I'm trying to get at with my line of questioning, which you didn't really address directly, is do we allow flexibility within our party, or do we become like the Tea Party, where if you're not in the Tea Party you're not good enough. I don't like the results that the Tea Party got politically, I don't think I would like not only our results, but our political chances if we turn into something that only appeals to "coastal liberal elite". We lost with that strategy in an "unloseable" election. I think we need to represent everyone in our country in the best way possible, and not continue down this path we're on that keeps pulling at elastic.
It seems like bullshit but its a political tool. It didnt really break the system.
Money broke the system
Republican Mayor.
Austin just told our governor to fuck himself right off with his 200K in state funding he wants to pull from our sheriffs department.
Maddows reaction last night when Franken told her they are keeping their plans secret was amazing.
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thepotatoman
Unconfirmed Member
The bathroom bill singlehandedly gave democrats the NC governorship, and might have given Hillary NC too if republicans nominated someone that gave a crap about republican social issues.
The bill was perfect for putting the blame on republicans for fighting dumb social fights instead of focusing on the economy, especially since that social fight was directly hurting their economy, with big businesses pulling out of the state left and right over it.
I agree it's not easy to run on trans-rights, but it's very easy to run against anti-trans-rights laws.
SenjutsuSage
Banned
To a strong degree, the one thing or excuse you cannot allow Donald Trump, is to be able to say that things aren't working the way he promised or hopes because he didn't get the cabinet picks he wanted in place. If something terrible happens, he cannot be bailed out by that excuse, so I actually understand to some degree why some Democrats may be deciding that this isn't the fight they want to have.
Give him enough rope to hang himself and then fight like hell on more substantive issues beyond just the personalities selected to head up specific departments. Because you will be fighting not just ideas and beliefs, but also people, and one way or the other someone who thinks the way Trump and Republicans want them to would get picked and confirmed anyway, so go ahead and give the idiot some of his stupid picks. They should absolutely NOT give him a Supreme Court pick, however. That is a stolen seat, and the Republicans opened Pandora's box when they disrespected Obama's last pick the way they did. We should stay with 4 Supreme Court Justices for 4 years straight. If Republicans can get away with total bullshit without consequences, Democrats should do the same regardless of how things turn out. Fight and don't give Trump a Supreme Court pick.
Give him enough rope to hang himself and then fight like hell on more substantive issues beyond just the personalities selected to head up specific departments. Because you will be fighting not just ideas and beliefs, but also people, and one way or the other someone who thinks the way Trump and Republicans want them to would get picked and confirmed anyway, so go ahead and give the idiot some of his stupid picks. They should absolutely NOT give him a Supreme Court pick, however. That is a stolen seat, and the Republicans opened Pandora's box when they disrespected Obama's last pick the way they did. We should stay with 4 Supreme Court Justices for 4 years straight. If Republicans can get away with total bullshit without consequences, Democrats should do the same regardless of how things turn out. Fight and don't give Trump a Supreme Court pick.
Aaronology
Member
Bipartisanship is dead and the path forward is simple for me. I do not want my party to engage in any behavior that will ease the job of this administration and/or provide them with ammunition for their fight in 2020. Anything they touch should be considered toxic and rejected as a matter of course. If the GOP were capable of producing/backing the hypothetical benevolent legislation you're worried about we wouldn't be so incensed by their rise to power to begin with. But that party does not exist; It's a figment of our flawed perception of the opposition. The GOP had in Barack Hussein Obama a man would tried in earnest to work with them, and they spit in his face for 8 years. Now? I think our response should draw from the wisdom of his predecessor: There's an old saying in Tennessee I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee that says, fool me once, shame on shame on you. Fool me you can't get fooled again. I want every day in Congress to look like this:
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thepotatoman
Unconfirmed Member
Probably.
That's why I'm more worried about democrats going along with something that really is awful out of worries about being seen as obstructionist.
I am not too worried about democrats obstructing something good for the sake of obstruction, because that chance isn't going to come up often anyway.
RPGCrazied
Member
Lets see how they vote next week on some of his more controversial nominee's. Not to hopeful anymore.
Dubbedinenglish
Banned
If there is one thing to take away from this cycle it isn't the content of your speech as much as it is how passionately it's argued. Dems need to drop the cordiality of this and start banging on pots and pans that this is as bad as it is. Tell people it isn't normal and we shouldn't act like this is reasonable. We need to fight at every chance, no more "delighted" to work with Trump, no more voting in his homophobic and racist cabinet picks. There needs to be visible opposition. I hope they wild out during the SOTU, let the people know how dire it is right now. We are under attack, and need to fight back.
shinra-bansho
Member
This seems like a repeat of that other thread. So, I'll just note:
I personally have no idea why "prioritizing eight" versus "gumming up" all the nominees, is seen as the most terrible thing in the world. People seem to be forgetting that the Democrats are the minority, with limited power to do anything to "gum up" these appointments anyway. Nikki Haley is not a hill to die on.
And non-functioning government plays entirely into GOP narratives, thus, the consequences of trying to obstruct everything, and to being seen as doing so for the sake of doing so, is actually entirely simpatico with the Tea Party voter.
But not necessarily the Democratic voter in Indiana or Virginia.
And again, people seem to be forgetting the Democrats are the minority, this seems to need repeating. The GOP engaged in unprecedented fuckery when they blocked Merrick Garland yes. But they had majority power.
So, to take Steve's example above of nominating Garland, and bring it back down to earth a bit. Two of the front-runners for Scalia's vacant Supreme Court seat are Gorsuch and Pryor. Gorsuch is for all intents and purposes a respected, learned and thoughtful, albeit highly conservative in the vein of Scalia, jurist. If he is nominated, the Democrats should absolutely vet him publicly, and they don't need to vote for him. But they should, ultimately, allow a vote on him.
Cf Pryor, would be someone to fight to the point where the only way McConnell could push him through is by changing the rules of the Senate.
I personally have no idea why "prioritizing eight" versus "gumming up" all the nominees, is seen as the most terrible thing in the world. People seem to be forgetting that the Democrats are the minority, with limited power to do anything to "gum up" these appointments anyway. Nikki Haley is not a hill to die on.
And non-functioning government plays entirely into GOP narratives, thus, the consequences of trying to obstruct everything, and to being seen as doing so for the sake of doing so, is actually entirely simpatico with the Tea Party voter.
But not necessarily the Democratic voter in Indiana or Virginia.
And again, people seem to be forgetting the Democrats are the minority, this seems to need repeating. The GOP engaged in unprecedented fuckery when they blocked Merrick Garland yes. But they had majority power.
So, to take Steve's example above of nominating Garland, and bring it back down to earth a bit. Two of the front-runners for Scalia's vacant Supreme Court seat are Gorsuch and Pryor. Gorsuch is for all intents and purposes a respected, learned and thoughtful, albeit highly conservative in the vein of Scalia, jurist. If he is nominated, the Democrats should absolutely vet him publicly, and they don't need to vote for him. But they should, ultimately, allow a vote on him.
Cf Pryor, would be someone to fight to the point where the only way McConnell could push him through is by changing the rules of the Senate.
Dont touch the pipelines, otherwise were cool.
If we die trying, we die. It's time to get dirty.
I will believe it when I see it.
Democrats like to pretend they are playing 4d chess and being all cleaver, but the past 7 years made it clear the public doesn't give two fucks about them playing smart politics. Not when they other side just repeats the same messages over and over as loud as they can. Democrats need to regroup and find a message that resonates with their base and those sympathetic to their ideas. Like I said in another thread they can start by not voting for terrible people/policies. Yeah it will still get though because we are in the minority, but at least it will take away the whole "X has bipartisan support" or "the democrats can't criticize, X of them voted for it as well" you can bet the republicans are going to pull out in some form. The republicans are going to do some fucked up shit the least the democrats can do is not cosign them.
Democrats like to pretend they are playing 4d chess and being all cleaver, but the past 7 years made it clear the public doesn't give two fucks about them playing smart politics. Not when they other side just repeats the same messages over and over as loud as they can. Democrats need to regroup and find a message that resonates with their base and those sympathetic to their ideas. Like I said in another thread they can start by not voting for terrible people/policies. Yeah it will still get though because we are in the minority, but at least it will take away the whole "X has bipartisan support" or "the democrats can't criticize, X of them voted for it as well" you can bet the republicans are going to pull out in some form. The republicans are going to do some fucked up shit the least the democrats can do is not cosign them.
Chuck Norris
Banned
Do opposition parties in the US not have a party leader outside of election season?
The Dems really could use a charismatic face of the party in this era of populism to stand against everything Trump says or does
The Dems really could use a charismatic face of the party in this era of populism to stand against everything Trump says or does
Bruce Springsteen
Member
They might as well, republicans with power are not interested in democrat opinion on anything
That's the problem right now, they're struggling to find someone like that.
This is correct.
The expectation that the Dems act like a parliamentary opposition party is a big part of this obnoxious narrative that's sprung up.
RedAssedApe
Banned
Obama? :\
I agree.
We're not dealing with a Bush or a Romney here (who would have ever thought we'd miss them?).
Anything that legitimizes or normalizes Trump is bad.
Block and oppose everything, make them taste what the last 6 years were like, just worst.
Energize the base by systematic opposition.
Trying to find a common ground would at this point only lead to Dems being used to pass horrible measures, with a "bi partisan," seal of approval.
Fuck this.
We're not dealing with a Bush or a Romney here (who would have ever thought we'd miss them?).
Anything that legitimizes or normalizes Trump is bad.
Block and oppose everything, make them taste what the last 6 years were like, just worst.
Energize the base by systematic opposition.
Trying to find a common ground would at this point only lead to Dems being used to pass horrible measures, with a "bi partisan," seal of approval.
Fuck this.
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