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Goku Vs. Superman - Settled Once and For All

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MisterHero said:
Does One More Day and Heroes Reborn count? :P

House of M served to reboot the mutant scare.
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heroes reborn wasnt a reboot. things were brought back to status quo as intended. with one more day things moved on is as if it didnt happen. and house of m drew the direction mutant storylines would go in.
 
Goku was clearly the underdog against Vegeta. The whole angle of that fight was that Goku could temporarily surpass Vegeta using the Kaio-Ken, at the cost of putting intense strain on his body. That tension made the fight a lot more interesting, imo, and is one of the better fights in DBZ as a result.
 
Meh, Koro-sensei can beat them.
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Nocebo said:
Nah luffy would get destroyed I think. But any logia type could probably beat superman since superman wouldn't be able to touch them. (or at least superman couldn't directly beat them)
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hahaha yea

Logia users are painfully broken. If you don't have the ability to use Haki, you can't hurt them (outside of very rare circumstances)

Akainu_2_by_cyanide_by_vi3ugu3pard.png
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neither supes or goku could defeat this guy in a fair fight. They'd have to destroy the planet to do so (which is something neither of those characters would ever consider doing)

Kizaru_luffy.png
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There's also this dude who's body is made up of "light" and moves at the speed of light. (I don't believe that claim, though he's unquestionably the fastest character in One Piece)
 
Parallax said:
except goku is never slated to lose, nor do his friends seem to think that he has a slim chance of victory. when hes defeated, people are shocked at the outcome. thats not the sign of an underdog. and even then, who other than friezas minions is putting up odds with the villains of the arcs? goku has more supporters than doubters to ever be considered the underdog. in fact before this thread, i have never heard the terms goku and underdog in the same sentence. what exactly is playing list wars with you gonna do except have you attempt to shoot down instances where you think im wrong?
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At the very least you could try and back up your claim instead of making one then refusing to try and back it up when I ask you out on it.

And again, the whole series has Goku being surmounted by a supposedly ridiculously powerful new enemy that surpasses his old one and he spends X months/years training himself to be even further. Do people who aren't underdogs go and train their ass off for a fight they're going to be able to win?

The problem here is just because he manages to win (and he still doesn't all the time) you think that means he's not an underdog. These two things are not related.
 
Hero said:
At the very least you could try and back up your claim instead of making one then refusing to try and back it up when I ask you out on it.

And again, the whole series has Goku being surmounted by a supposedly ridiculously powerful new enemy that surpasses his old one and he spends X months/years training himself to be even further. Do people who aren't underdogs go and train their ass off for a fight they're going to be able to win?

The problem here is just because he manages to win (and he still doesn't all the time) you think that means he's not an underdog. These two things are not related.
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im not denying that he trains up, but when battles start, hes isnt seen as the one whos losing. the moment he steps onto a field with anyone hes one people think is gonna come out on top. it isnt even a question in the minds of his allies whether or not he has a shot. hes not the underdog in a majority of his battles. and playing list wars does nothing for me when you can easily get the info yourself. especially when you claim hes the underdog.
 
There were multiple instances in the series of Goku's allies questioning whether he could beat the opponent. They have faith in him, but they usually had trouble believing he could win.
 
MisterHero said:
Does One More Day and Heroes Reborn count? :P

House of M served to reboot the mutant scare.
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no, because the current characters running around are the exact same ones that have always existed (with very specific plot related exceptions like Superior Spider Man.) Captain America is the same guy that fought in WWII during timely comics. The hulk is the same hulk that made his debut in the 1960s. The Xmen are still the same Xmen that gathered in the 60s, just slightly older.

All of the events that happened in between are canon and part of those character's "life experience."

One More Day only changes the circumstances of one event in parker's life- everything that happened before then (and most of the events since) are still exactly the same.

Heroes reborn just shuffled certain existing heroes off to a pocket dimension/alternate reality to experience different events, then brought them back. It didn't erase anything.

House of M was a temporary reality shift that showed what might have happened had events been different, and when it ended everyone retained memories of reality as it was before AND during house of M.

in contrast, The "Crisis" and "flashpoint" events completely nullified the events that happened before they took place. The superman that was around in the 1990s never experienced the events of the 70s or early 80s. The Wonder Woman that was around in the 1980s is gone- the current one is a completely different individual without her memories or experiences.

Marvel doesn't handle their multiverse this way, DC does.
 
Pfft, Marvel stopped really caring about realistic storytelling and continuity when Franklin Richards decided he didn't want to age anymore.
 
Parallax said:
im not denying that he trains up, but when battles start, hes isnt seen as the one whos losing. the moment he steps onto a field with anyone hes one people think is gonna come out on top. it isnt even a question in the minds of his allies whether or not he has a shot. hes not the underdog in a majority of his battles. and playing list wars does nothing for me when you can easily get the info yourself. especially when you claim hes the underdog.
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Who said anything about losing? Most of the fights are grinded out. Who are referring to as people? Of course his friends think he's going to win because he's basically their last hope in just about every circumstance. I mean, I don't know what to say to you anymore, it's a shounen manga so the tension is pretty much always the same in that a new enemy shows up that's supposedly an even greater threat than the last, how can Goku possibly hope to win, then training arc for him while other characters fight and get their butts kicked.

The only time in the series where Goku actually shows up and wins a fight without getting ridiculously fucked up is when he arrives on Namek and goes through the Ginyu Force.
 
EmCeeGramr said:
Pfft, Marvel stopped really caring about realistic storytelling and continuity when Franklin Richards decided he didn't want to age anymore.
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It's comics. none of it is realistic. Just pointing out that Marvel uses "marvel time" to handle the passage of time and events, while DC is prone to rebooting their lineup every couple decades or so to wipe out inconvenient plot baggage and keep characters fresh. both require a certain amount of suspension of disbelief.

Also it's probably worth noting that "marvel time" necessitates retconning certain time sensitive events for specific characters- punisher was originally a vietnam vet, but at this point he'd be a billion years old. same with Tony Stark (originally injured in the Korean War.) Both of those two had their veteran status moved to more recent conflicts.
 
Manmademan said:
It's comics. none of it is realistic. Just pointing out that Marvel uses "marvel time" to handle the passage of tiime and events, while DC is prone to rebooting their lineup every couple decades or so to wipe out inconvenient plot baggage and keep characters fresh. both require a certain amount of suspension of disbelief.

Also it's probably worth noting that "marvel time" necessitates retconning certain time sensitive events for specific characters- punisher was originally a vietnam vet, but at this point he'd be a billion years old. same with Tony Stark (originally injured in the Korean War.) Both of those two had their veteran status moved to more recent conflicts.
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So how many more real life years before they get retconned to becoming vets in the Afghanistan or Iraq War?
 
ReiGun said:
Or just his home town.
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LFCUu.jpg
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That panel is one of my favorites of all time. It actually makes the Flash look really, really cool and touches on why his existence would kinda suck for him. The writing is amazing too.

In the time of Superman's absence, Keystone City has become a utopia-a protectorate relentlessly patrolled by a gale force once human.

No one sees him...
No one hears him.
He lives a lonely race...
But all who live here have felt his presence.

He is everywhere at once...A guardian angel who rights even the most harmless of wrongs with lightning speed.

He lives between the ticks of a second.
He is the Flash.
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It's one of the best short explorations of what makes Flash an interesting character if he was only written well all the time.


Kurita said:
Meh, Koro-sensei can beat them.
tumblr_m8x28qK9Sj1rsmg7no1_500.jpg
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Not when the Flash has robbed of all his speed and then proceeds any number of punches with such power and mass that it is literally unquantifiable. It should also be pointed out that, as fast as Koro-sensei is, Flash is undoubtedly faster. Koro-sensei has trouble dodging a pellet when it's disguised by another pellet.
 
Hero said:
So how many more real life years before they get retconned to becoming vets in the Afghanistan or Iraq War?
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They already have been. As I said, Tony Stark being injured in the korean war would make him somewhere around 70 or 80 years old.

Editorial has "moved" this to Afghanistan, in line with the recent Iron Man movie. In 20 years they'll probably move it again.

It's one of the best short explorations of what makes Flash an interesting character if he was only written well all the time.
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absolutely. Kingdom Come was awesome for all kinds of reasons. Flash wasn't even the best character in it. But of course, writing characters to their maximum potential all the time makes it really hard for some writers, so you end up with plots that conveniently "forget" certain abilities exist. One notably shameless story had deathstroke tricking flash into running into his sword, as if flash didn't have the reaction time to stop himself.
 
Manmademan said:
They already have been. As I said, Tony Stark being injured in the korean war would make him somewhere around 70 or 80 years old.

Editorial has "moved" this to Afghanistan, in line with the recent Iron Man movie. In 20 years they'll probably move it again.
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What if there aren't any wars in the next 20 years?
 
Manmademan said:
no, because the current characters running around are the exact same ones that have always existed (with very specific plot related exceptions like Superior Spider Man.) Captain America is the same guy that fought in WWII during timely comics. The hulk is the same hulk that made his debut in the 1960s. The Xmen are still the same Xmen that gathered in the 60s, just slightly older.

All of the events that happened in between are canon and part of those character's "life experience."

One More Day only changes the circumstances of one event in parker's life- everything that happened before then (and most of the events since) are still exactly the same.

Heroes reborn just shuffled certain existing heroes off to a pocket dimension/alternate reality to experience different events, then brought them back. It didn't erase anything.

House of M was a temporary reality shift that showed what might have happened had events been different, and when it ended everyone retained memories of reality as it was before AND during house of M.

in contrast, The "Crisis" and "flashpoint" events completely nullified the events that happened before they took place. The superman that was around in the 1990s never experienced the events of the 70s or early 80s. The Wonder Woman that was around in the 1980s is gone- the current one is a completely different individual without her memories or experiences.

Marvel doesn't handle their multiverse this way, DC does.
Click to expand...
I was blasting Heroes Reborn because I think some aspects might've stayed if they were popular enough.

One More Day reset Peter's marraige and unmasking, which is the kind of thing that Crisis exist for. OMD was just on a smaller scale. I'll give Marvel that it would be a lot worse if he didn't get a new job for Horizon Labs.

Mutants were becoming very common, and House of M reset that. AvX leveraged that somewhat successfully with Cyclops going nuts trying to bring back mutants, but No More Mutants is still a retcon.

The point is that characters and scenarios are constantly pushed back to feel more 'youthened/modernized/relevant'. Marvel is doing a better time recognizing them and writing new stories out of them, but resets are resets.

No such antics can even be discussed about Goku. Until GT at least.
 
Hero said:
What if there aren't any wars in the next 20 years?
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Then we will have achieved world peace, and worrying about the plots of comics will be a minor issue I'm willing to live with.

I was blasting Heroes Reborn because I think some aspects might've stayed if they were popular enough.

One More Day reset Peter's marraige and unmasking, which is the kind of thing that Crisis exist for. OMD was just on a smaller scale. I'll give Marvel that it would be a lot worse if he didn't get a new job for Horizon Labs.
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it changed the outcome one event, but not the character itself. Much like a time travel story might do- look at the 1960s Xmen being brought to the present day in ANXM, for instance. This isn't a retcon. Peter's unmasking still happens, just no one remembers who it was because mephisto's magic is interfering. The marriage still exists in peter's memories (sort of), just no one else can recall it. This is turning into a plot point with superior spider man, since superior is confused as to why mary jane doesn't remember as much of their relationship history as he does. the events of OMD are starting to unravel.

Mutants were becoming very common, and House of M reset that. AvX leveraged that somewhat successfully with Cyclops going nuts trying to bring back mutants, but No More Mutants is still a retcon.
Click to expand...

No more mutants is not a retcon. a reboot or a retcon would say that those mutants never existed, or what happened prior to that event (like "Crisis" or "Flashpoint") no longer counts, or never happened. Instead, those mutants who lost their abilities post house of M thanks to "no more mutants" simply have their powers blocked, and some of them (magneto, professor X, quicksilver) managed to repower themselves anyway. They're still there, every event leading up to house of M still happened, and they were not erased- they simply lacked superhuman abilities. Avengers Vs. Xmen has now solved that entirely, and those mutants now all have their powers back thanks to the phoenix force. This isn't a retcon, just a plot device.

The point is that characters and scenarios are constantly pushed back to feel more 'relevant'. Marvel is doing a better time recognizing them and writing new stories out of them, but resets are resets.
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there have been no resets. Every event that happened (with one or two rare exceptions) is still part of a character's life history.
 
If the video didn't settle the fight for you, for me - at the very least - it helped settle, "Who had the most over-the-top feats of strength." What can I say, those DC writers put a lot of zeros in there.

I loved how they brought in so many disparate pieces of lore to do the number crunching. So big props to screwattack for some creative problem solving. Like Shouta, though, I had issue with some of the premises they started with to extrapolate Goku's numbers. Dismissing power levels was a cop-out. Power levels were only "meaningless" for the bad guys because the good guys could manipulate their readings/levels. Sadly DBZ was ONLY about power levels and not skill. In the end for what their authors intend for their characters, I'm okay with Superman winning.
 
I'm sure if Doomsday could "kill" Superman, Goku would make short work of him.

Also, I didnt know 80% of this shit Superman could do and now that I know, I totally like him less. He's such a bullshit hero. "Strong as he needs to be"...bullshit.
 
Kinda obvious Superman would win, as much as I dislike him. I wonder if Gogeta or Vegito would stand a better chance.

Giving my energy to Goku! \(;_;)/
 
Bob White said:
I'm sure if Doomsday could "kill" Superman, Goku would make short work of him.

Also, I didnt know 80% of this shit Superman could do and now that I know, I totally like him less. He's such a bullshit hero. "Strong as he needs to be"...bullshit.
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Except that applies to Goku too . . . there is no consistency to either of these two characters but calling out only Superman specifically for it is silly.
 
Eric the Red said:
If the video didn't settle the fight for you, for me - at the very least - it helped settle, "Who had the most over-the-top feats of strength." What can I say, those DC writers put a lot of zeros in there.

I loved how they brought in so many disparate pieces of lore to do the number crunching. So big props to screwattack for some creative problem solving. Like Shouta, though, I had issue with some of the premises they started with to extrapolate Goku's numbers. Dismissing power levels was a cop-out. Power levels were only "meaningless" for the bad guys because the good guys could manipulate their readings/levels. Sadly DBZ was ONLY about power levels and not skill. In the end for what their authors intend for their characters, I'm okay with Superman winning.
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Thing with power levels is, if you tie them to what the characters were doing at the time, (Roshi blew up the moon at a relatively low power level.) Goku ends up being an even match with things like The Silver Surfer.
 
Keikaku said:
Except that applies to Goku too . . . there is no consistency to either of these two characters but calling out only Superman specifically for it is silly.
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True, but there is this air of real limitation around Goku. I never watched GT, and it's been years since I watched the Buu saga, but it never seemed Goku's storylines were "don't worry, he's gonna win no matter what". Shit, the sense of dread I felt during his fight with Cell was awesome. Dude is totally nowhere near Superman legitimate God status.
 
Freshmaker said:
Thing with power levels is, if you tie them to what the characters were doing at the time, (Roshi blew up the moon at a relatively low power level.) Goku ends up being an even match with things like The Silver Surfer.
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I guess the only problem with that would be if you think that's too inconsistent with what's actually represented in the show.

It's true I don't think power levels can be used as a linear gauge of strength, but they still serve a purpose here. At least as a viewer, when you see how badly 20,000 beats a 15,000 or how their ki blasts compare, you get a feel for what those numbers actually represent; they aren't "meaningless."
 
Ventilaator said:
I've often seen Luffy vs Mr Fantastic recommended to them. I don't know enough about Mr Fantastic to know how that would go.
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Would be a weird match. Mr. Fantastic is an immeasurable genius, while Luffy's an idiot, despite being awesomely powerful. Don't think it'd be much of a fight--by that I mean, it wouldn't be epic or exciting--if we take into account what Reed would do in the first place with his tech.
 
Manmademan said:
Demons did it also in that animated series- so it's canon, just inconsistent. LOL @ werewolves, though.



Ok, what happens if someone launches a sledgehammer at your face at oh...a thousand miles an hour?



going by the wonder woman scan above, that should have killed him. crushed every bone in his face. Remember, normally superman can't even PICK UP Mjolnir. (Odin made an exception one time).
But the magic weakness was ignored for that particular fight, and that's not the only time it's happened, just the one that tends to be the most egregious.
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So could Trunks end Superman with the Z Sword?
 
jtir123 said:
What about that simple concept?
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It's actually somewhat amusing that it's only used to travel in the fight but Instant Transmission itself was used quite a bit by Goku throughout the series, both to travel and to dodge attacks or setup offense. The point about Goku not being able to know where he transports Superman in a fight is rather silly because he could easily go somewhere that he does know. He's IM'd to Kaio's planet and I'm pretty sure that place doesn't have a sun, for example. At least, I don't remember there being a Sun there.
 
Ha, the fight in that video was fucking awesome.

Goku technically won, but his dumbness took over. He could have ended it in base form with the kryptonite. Vegeta would have killed him with the kryptonite soon as it was exposed.
 
Shouta said:
It's actually somewhat amusing that it's only used to travel in the fight but Instant Transmission itself was used quite a bit by Goku throughout the series, both to travel and to dodge attacks or setup offense. The point about Goku not being able to know where he transports Superman in a fight is rather silly because he could easily go somewhere that he does know. He's IM'd to Kaio's planet and I'm pretty sure that place doesn't have a sun, for example. At least, I don't remember there being a Sun there.
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Nice, thanks. I tend to get bugged when people are just like...

"Dude, all he has to do is punch him in the face then bam! He wins. Hands down."
 
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